Lord of the rings

[ravengod]

liked it?

[Anonymous]

yup

[Blibblob]

Plot SUCKED. I mean come on, we must destroy ring, oh no, it too powerful.

But how he pieced it together, genius, it made me forget how shitty the plot was, for a little while.

[suffianr]

A lot of people hate the plot because it perhaps seems to be too...derivative.

A perplexing notion, because, seeing as how LOTR was published almost half a century ago, only all the other fantasy sword & sorcery shit that came along after it stands as derivative, because perhaps LOTR delved more into pseudo-mythical histories and theology than any other known works in modern Western civilization.

So, of course, if you're reading it in, say, 2003, of course it's derivative, because there's a whole load of other orc-neck hewing dwarfs and androgynous elvish princes prancing around in the forests! Dragonlance, Fighting Fantasy, The Chronicles of Narnia,Raymond E. Fiest, hell, even Star Wars was heavily inspired by the simple tale of good versus evil, with grossly-delineated goodies versus the formulaic, evil baddies sprouting corny badass lines...Of course it's derivative! We're so fucking used to it by now...the immortal fight against evil, the stop-gap measures against crime, the quintessential hero returning to claim his birthright, the treacherous turncoats, talking trees, magical elves, the nameless, faceless legions of snarling bad guys raping and pillaging...if that's your angle, I'm not surprised you think the plot sucks. It's been done before. But Tolkien did it before anyone, else, so there is the inherent contradiction.

But if you were to have read it in, say, 1960 or 1978, it woldn't be as derivative or cynically normal as nowadays. It's just a matter of perspective. After all, the genre has been literally done to death...

Hey, Conan wasn't that bad, but the Scorpion King really raked the bottom the barrel...So, pick up a copy of Beowulf, read it, and tell me if you think that's derivative... ;)

[canikickit]

I thought it was boring and overwrought. I can't recall wether I bothered finisshing it. Garbage.

[chamo]

bad plot but well put together quite well.
the films were also quite good also.

[Fires of History]

The greatest work of fiction ever.

Or does anyone else know a story that the author invented languages for? Or one in which the complete history and myth of an entire culture was created? Not to mention the way Tolkien writes, the way he says things, is amazing.

How is it, in one generation, that Tolkien equaled the creative force of an entire people?

[canikickit]

The greatest work of fiction ever.

Or does anyone else know a story that the author invented languages for? Or one in which the complete history and myth of an entire culture was created? Not to mention the way Tolkien writes, the way he says things, is amazing.

That's quite strange, the ikoncode on "ever" worked in the reply, but not the main page. maybe the quotes won't work.

Anyway, I don't think invented languages or made up cultures are ingredients for a good book. Irrelevant.

[Doshka]

i liked them...i think hes good though his style is not my favourite...he goes into detail way too much, like in grapes of rath...but good books all in all...the only thing i object to is how obviouse the end was...i mean COME on..why is it that good guys always win? and the main charactors ALWAYS get ehir goal..it got old

[Fires of History]

Quote: from canikickit on 7:13 pm on Jan. 21, 2003

Anyway, I don't think invented languages or made up cultures are ingredients for a good book. Irrelevant.


Well if you didn't like the books, then of course not.

However, languages, myth, history...all are creations.

All the result of tremendous creative ability.

Tolkien was one of the most creative writers ever. Anyone can write a story, and there are a lot of good stories. But not everyone can write such a good story, then create languages to go along with the story (even though he actually created the stories to support the languages, as a linguist), as well as create a complete history around the story and create a complete myth surrounding and explaining all the races he created.

So, in my opinion, The Lord of the Rings is the most creative work ever written. Nobody, that I've ever talked to anyway, has ever been able to name a story that required so much creativity to be created. The Lord of the Rings, being just the end of many, many books, is an epic achievement, an amazing accomplishment, and a literary feat. If you can't see that, I don't know what to say.

And, to me, the plot isn't boring. My favorite part being the effect the One Ring has on everyone. The One Ring being nothing but a symbol for power, corrupting any who try to wield it.

To me, The Lord of the Rings is a very leftist work. Everything from how it stresses the importance of all races working together to its great reverence for the Earth.

And, to me, the greatest point being that POWER CANNOT BE WIELDED BY ANYONE. Anyone who tries to use the Ring (Power) ends up becoming corrupted. The 'good' characters being those that resist using that power. The Lord of the Rings is, to me, the ultimate story of how power corrupts absolutely.

Is Tolkien saying that we should abolish all forms of power over people? That we, like the characters in the books, need to finally destroy that which wields terrible power over all of us, in short our One Ring (The State that is)?

Who knows, but I like to think so anyway. That's what it says to me. And that's why it, to put in lay terms, KICKS FUCKING ASS!!! ;)

[canikickit]

Yeah, I was meant to edit that and say it was creative, and was representitive of a lot of ability. I also pretty much agree with everything you say, except I thought the books were not entertaining.

A good allegory maybe, certainly I agree with the message of the books but not entertaining (for me at least). I read them when I was younger (I'm not sure if I bothered to finish the Return of the King), and I remember intending to read them when I got older, I felt they were aimed at an older agegroup.

Now, I just cannot bother. I read the Hobbit not too long ago, and I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it when I first read it also (far more than the Lord of the Rings). I just think he made the books too drawn out, and probably too melodramatic. It's quite strange, because I was a big fan of Feist, Terry Goodkind, CS Lewis and the likes, I just never liked that crap. I also found that the knowledge of the detail he put into it put me off. Histories and what not.

Which brings me back to the point of creativity. I think he created crap, I don't consider that a talent really. But I don't know.

[sin miedo]

That's right you don't know. He created a masterpiece! Ha, argue with that impeccable logic! Tolkien was a god among men! So there.

[canikickit]

That's right you don't know.

It's true. Nobody knows everything we say is meaningless at times. :biggrin: I guess that's what makes life interesting.

[Fires of History]

What I'm saying is that Tolkien didn't create a story, not at all, he created a world.

But this is definitely where we just have to shake hands and agree to disagree because there's nothing I can say that's going to make you suddenly see Tolkien's brilliance. If you think it's "crap" and "garbage," then what can I say?

:shakes hands:

But seriously, if you find The Lord of the Rings to be crap, garbage, and not entertaining, then I have to know what does do it for you?

[canikickit]

But seriously, if you find The Lord of the Rings to be crap, garbage, and not entertaining, then I have to know what does do it for you?

:shakes head:

:shakes hands:

Well when I was younger I read all those other fantasy books like I mentioned. Right now, I prefer reading factual books. Like "Calling Serbia" and "Killing Pablo". Most of my favourite books involve reggae, and I'm reading Catch 22 at the moment which is one of the best I've read in a long time. I wrote a bucket load of garbage about some reggae books and Catch 22 here (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=21&topic=1&start=200).

I wouldn't actually say just one thing which I like, but that shows some books that I like.

Hunter S. Thompson too. :wink:

Thompson is a hero of mine. I got the first two editions of his letters (I'm not sure if there are more out now). I thought they were fantastic, especially considering he always wanted to have a book of his letters printed and he got his way. I really respect that. Also, his writing is always so personal, and his letters are pretty similar.

I love how he strives for a "fortress", his own piece of land where he doesn't have to deal with the shitstem.

He's defintely up there as the top writers of all time for me.