A second front? The left vs the EDL and the ????

[Steve_j]

Hey all,

EDL stuck this on their website, seems like the English nationalists arnt the only ones trying to create a social divide.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXjOd4A63Ak

These guys are a marginalised element of the muslim community, but none the less it doesnt hurt to keep an eye on them.

I did find this video very interesting in the sense his concern seems to be more with the left then it is with the EDL. And particularly his concern is that many muslims are identifying with the left (i hope they are). Perhaps we are doing something right.

To be honest his argument was extreemly poorly developed, he is a bit of a twat and as i mentioned they are a marginalised element of the muslim community. But maybe we should take this as a heads up.

Anyway just wanted to open up a discussion about it.

Thoughts and opinions?

[Fidel Follower]

I don't rate his arguement at all, i am a bit drunk, but anyone who is pro-sharia law cannot be a good thing. It is not pro-person or pro-diversity way of thinking.
I don't like this guy at all.

[Killfacer]

Is he a dumb ass? Islam versus non islam? Does he want us all to join the fucking EDL or something?

He's a fucking mental case.

[bricolage]

http://www.londonclasswar.org/images/sticksnew/ABUGRIFFINcopy.jpg

[Jazzratt]

http://www.londonclasswar.org/images/sticksnew/ABUGRIFFINcopy.jpg

Careful comrade there are those here who believe the man on the left to be a hero of the oppressed. They are morons, but they can't half shout you down.

[BobKKKindle$]

Re; the Class War thing, it's simply not the case that the BNP and Islamic extremism are two sides of the same coin, as that image suggests. Insofar as Islamic extremists attract support from the broader Muslim community they do so because Muslims are increasingly the victims of racist attacks and a general climate of Islamophobia that seeks to characterize Islam as a religion that is uniquely liable to encourage acts of violence and legitimize the oppression of women. This is a trend that has become more evident since 9/11 and has also manifested itself in the form of attempts by European governments to restrict the ability of individual Muslims to follow their religion, as in the case of the French government's policy on the right of female Muslims to wear the Hijab, which was justified as consistent with secularism, and as necessary to protect these women from the pressure of their husbands, and male community leaders. There is also a further trend in the UK whereby Muslims come under physical attack in areas where the BNP has made electoral gains, as recently occurred in Rochdale, where a 17 year-old woman suffered facial injuries at the hands of several white men, shortly after Nick Griffin gained an MEP seat in the North-West, which is where Rochdale is situated. In this context, as well as the willingness of many socialists to side with the state against Muslims, as in the case of Lutte Ouvriere in France, it is not surprising that some Muslims seek to shield themselves from oppression by turning to those who promote a violent and divisive interpretation of their religious beliefs. This is different from the BNP because it is a response to oppression, whereas the BNP seeks to intensify the oppression of Muslims, and non-white ethnic groups in general. To suggest that people like Abu Hamza and Nick Griffin are the same is just as flawed as suggesting that Hamas and the Israeli state are just as bad as each other - such a viewpoint fails to distinguish between the oppressor, and a misguided response to political and social oppression. In this respect a parallel can be drawn between Islamic extremists and groups like the New Black Panther Party in the United States, as these groups, despite being viciously anti-semitic, cannot be confused with actual fascists like the NSM, as they are the result of entirely different material conditions, the NBPP being a, once again, misguided response to the ongoing oppression of black people.

If you don't want Muslims to turn to extremism, if you want Muslims and non-Muslims to stand united against fascism, then it's time for the left to start acknowledging Islamophobia, and taking a progressive stand on things like the right to wear the Hijab - which is what the SWP is doing.

[Holden Caulfield]

Careful comrade there are those here who believe the man on the left to be a hero of the oppressed. They are morons, but they can't half shout you down.

not in this forum i hope. hysterics will not be tolerated haha
I was just looking for that picture to post myself.

although Bob has a point with what he says I think it is our job to also criticise the radical-islamists who can only make the problem worse, strengthening racial divides and therefore weakening the working class. We should work with Muslims, we should defend Islamic communities but we shouldn't defend people like Abu, we should work with muslims as members of the working class not patronise them.

In the same way I would defend the rights of Catholics and the Irish when they were opressed as the terrorists and the dangerous aliens in our society but i would condem the blowing up of innocent people.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

In my opinion those who are best equipped to deal with Islamic nutters are those in Muslim communities.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

In my opinion those who are best equipped to deal with Islamic nutters are those in Muslim communities.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

Re; the Class War thing, it's simply not the case that the BNP and Islamic extremism are two sides of the same coin, as that image suggests. Insofar as Islamic extremists attract support from the broader Muslim community they do so because Muslims are increasingly the victims of racist attacks and a general climate of Islamophobia that seeks to characterize Islam as a religion that is uniquely liable to encourage acts of violence and legitimize the oppression of women.
So, the BNP and Islamists aren't just two sides of the same coin, because the growth of the Islamists is a consequence of the growth of the BNP? That sounds a lot like being two sides of the same coin to me.

[BobKKKindle$]

So, the BNP and Islamists aren't just two sides of the same coin, because the growth of the Islamists is a consequence of the growth of the BNP? That sounds a lot like being two sides of the same coin to me. At no point did I suggest that the growth of Islamism, insofar as Islamism can be seen as having "grown", can be reduced to the rise of the BNP. Rather, if Islamists are attracting greater support amongst Muslim communities in European countries, that has to be understood in the context of Islamophobia, which has become politically relevant since 9/11, and has ben encouraged by the state, through the implementation of "anti-terror" measures that target Muslim communities, as well as organizations like the BNP. Even if the BNP were somehow the sole cause of Islamism that would not justify adopting the same political stance towards both phenomenon for reasons that I've already stated above. If leftists did follow through on the OP's advice and open up a "front" against the Islamists, treating them in the same way as the BNP, this would presumably give us an obligation to reject any form of political cooperation (i.e. never going on any protests about Palestine, or any other issue that is connected with the role of the British state in the Middle East, such as the ongoing occupation of Iraq - anyone who's been on one of those protests knows that a lot of the people who come along identify as Islamists or at least have Islamist sympathies, as you can see from the number of people who wave Hezbollah/Hamas flags, and express their anger in religious terms, by chanting "Allahu Akbar" and so on. All good leftists adopt a no platform position in relation to the BNP and so if you also regard Islamists as fascists it would be inconsistent to go on the same demonstrations as them even when there is some scope for political agreement) and to hold counter-demonstrations whenever Islamists hold their own demonstrations, whatever the issue - putting us politically and physically on the same side of the police barricades as the EDL.

[Steve_j]

In my opinion those who are best equipped to deal with Islamic nutters are those in Muslim communities.


I couldnt agree more. Im wondering if this guy and his group have been, or intend to use the demos as a ground to try and recruit secular muslims?

They usually publicly operate under the front of "Islam4UK" or the "Islamic road show" If anyone has seen literature or a stall along these lines at past demos (or at future ones) can they let me know.

I might know a couple of muslims that would be interested in confronting them :)

[Pogue]

Re; the Class War thing, it's simply not the case that the BNP and Islamic extremism are two sides of the same coin, as that image suggests. Insofar as Islamic extremists attract support from the broader Muslim community they do so because Muslims are increasingly the victims of racist attacks and a general climate of Islamophobia that seeks to characterize Islam as a religion that is uniquely liable to encourage acts of violence and legitimize the oppression of women. This is a trend that has become more evident since 9/11 and has also manifested itself in the form of attempts by European governments to restrict the ability of individual Muslims to follow their religion, as in the case of the French government's policy on the right of female Muslims to wear the Hijab, which was justified as consistent with secularism, and as necessary to protect these women from the pressure of their husbands, and male community leaders. There is also a further trend in the UK whereby Muslims come under physical attack in areas where the BNP has made electoral gains, as recently occurred in Rochdale, where a 17 year-old woman suffered facial injuries at the hands of several white men, shortly after Nick Griffin gained an MEP seat in the North-West, which is where Rochdale is situated. In this context, as well as the willingness of many socialists to side with the state against Muslims, as in the case of Lutte Ouvriere in France, it is not surprising that some Muslims seek to shield themselves from oppression by turning to those who promote a violent and divisive interpretation of their religious beliefs. This is different from the BNP because it is a response to oppression, whereas the BNP seeks to intensify the oppression of Muslims, and non-white ethnic groups in general. To suggest that people like Abu Hamza and Nick Griffin are the same is just as flawed as suggesting that Hamas and the Israeli state are just as bad as each other - such a viewpoint fails to distinguish between the oppressor, and a misguided response to political and social oppression. In this respect a parallel can be drawn between Islamic extremists and groups like the New Black Panther Party in the United States, as these groups, despite being viciously anti-semitic, cannot be confused with actual fascists like the NSM, as they are the result of entirely different material conditions, the NBPP being a, once again, misguided response to the ongoing oppression of black people.

If you don't want Muslims to turn to extremism, if you want Muslims and non-Muslims to stand united against fascism, then it's time for the left to start acknowledging Islamophobia, and taking a progressive stand on things like the right to wear the Hijab - which is what the SWP is doing.

But that doesn't negate the message of the sticker. The point is both are examples of people with positions of relative power maniuplating legitimate anger to diverting it down the wrong path to serve the interests of those doing the manipulating, in this case Muslim people and white working class people.

[MilitantAnarchist]

Fuck them all. I dont want anything to do with either side of the islam / edl thing.
They are as bad as eachother, im not going here to be PC, because in being PC, im in serious danger of being part of some liberal minded fantasy land.
I will say fuck islam, but in the same breath i say fuck christianity, fuck capitalism, fuck fascism, fuck all those things. Religion is oppression, just the same as fat cats and nazis.
To me, race is nothing. My point is a **** is a ****, and i'm not bothered what race or religion you are, your part of what i thought we all hated.
So fuck edl, fuck the bnp fuck sharia law, fuck al qaeda, fuck the government that is to blaim for this, and fuck the media that plays out their little game.

[bricolage]

the NBPP being a, once again, misguided response to the ongoing oppression of black people.

Thankfully you recognise but the NBPP and radical Islamism as misguided responses to quite obvious oppression and discrimination but the question then arises when do you point out they are misguided and, more to the point, when do you challenge these misguided views?

The fact of that matter is that if you accept that capitalism necessitates the existence of privileged and neglected groups, as I am sure you do, there will always exist discrimination under it. In this case if we agree to excuse views we despise because they come from oppressed groups we have no choice but to excuse them until capitalism is destroyed. In doing so we effectively damage the chance of such destruction as we allow the continuation of reactionary groups that will undoubtedly side against us. The very fact that the the video that started this threat criticises communists and socialists is surely evidence of this.

If however this is not the case you have to accept one of two things; a) it is possible to eradicate discrimination under capitalism or b) we have to challenge all views we oppose no matter who is putting them forwards. As I said I assume you do not agree with the former so in that case we must side with the latter. This is not saying that whatever growth in Islamism there might or might not have been is not a product of increasing Islamophobia and that we should not criticise the imperialist, racist and discriminatory policies of the state, but that we cannot always turn a blind eye to what it spawns. The hypothetical situation of boycotting marches that Hezbollah flags might be on does not really address the issue as of course we should march and side with oppressed groups but in doing so we should be there to challenge reactionary and misguided views that exist in response to oppression. However this does not necessarily, as I'm sure will be claimed, involve lecturing Muslims about what they should do and what they should believe, instead it should take the form of, as Comrade Joe mentions, offering direct support to those within Muslim communities, and all oppressed communities, that seek to put forward views that are congruent with, or at the very least not in direct opposition to, the views we hope to propagate. Yet excusing those we do oppose and offering support to groups or individuals we oppose will get us nowhere. Actually to be honest all of this was already said in more simplistic terms here;


although Bob has a point with what he says I think it is our job to also criticise the radical-islamists who can only make the problem worse, strengthening racial divides and therefore weakening the working class. We should work with Muslims, we should defend Islamic communities but we shouldn't defend people like Abu, we should work with muslims as members of the working class not patronise them.

[Melbourne Lefty]

http://www.londonclasswar.org/images/sticksnew/ABUGRIFFINcopy.jpg

Thank you very very much.

i see the UAF on "Anti-fascist" marches which somehow seem to consist almost entirely of young muslim men who came out to defend their community because the Imams said so.

Way too many people on the left see Islam as an ally, and because of this they ignore the fact that it is a militant religious identity.

Islam is not a friend of the working class any more than Christiantity is, the reasons that the Churches are impediments to equality and a fairer world work for mosques as well.

[Steve_j]

i see the UAF on "Anti-fascist" marches which somehow seem to consist almost entirely of young muslim men who came out to defend their community because the Imams said so.

Actually the mosque leaders were against the counter demo, this was a case of self organistion of the community.


Way too many people on the left see Islam as an ally, and because of this they ignore the fact that it is a militant religious identity.

Its not that they see Islam as an ally, its that they see secular and non practicing muslims as victims of far right persecution. This means working with and in muslim communities to combat this.

Especially seeing that there are also nuts like Abu (the guy in the pic) trying to divide us.


Islam is not a friend of the working class any more than Christiantity is, the reasons that the Churches are impediments to equality and a fairer world work for mosques as well.

You forgot about Judaism........ And the left has a proud history of working with and supporting Jewish communites in their struggle against persecution. I know the situation now isnt extreem, but that does not invalidate the need to support the muslim community in the stuggle against groups that are trying to polarize us.

[Killfacer]

Its not that they see Islam as an ally, its that they see secular and non practicing muslims as victims of far right persecution. This means working with and in muslim communities to combat this.



I don't disagree with you but the idea that the majority of those young muslim men who joined the counter demo are "secular and non practising" seems a little ridiculous.

[Steve_j]

^^^^

You think the majority of those young muslim men want to live under sharia law?

Edit, maybe i should clarify by secular i meant in the belief that state and religion should exist separately.

[MilitantAnarchist]

I dont worry about any kind of religion because it is all bollocks anyway. Believe what you want to believe in, all i believe that any kind of bigotry or extremist belief is bad.......... and i am an extremist in my belief... because i am a hypocrite :rolleyes:

[Pogue]

Actually the mosque leaders were against the counter demo, this was a case of self organistion of the community.



Its not that they see Islam as an ally, its that they see secular and non practicing muslims as victims of far right persecution. This means working with and in muslim communities to combat this.

Especially seeing that there are also nuts like Abu (the guy in the pic) trying to divide us.



You forgot about Judaism........ And the left has a proud history of working with and supporting Jewish communites in their struggle against persecution. I know the situation now isnt extreem, but that does not invalidate the need to support the muslim community in the stuggle against groups that are trying to polarize us.

Spot on, ignore Melbourne Lefty, he doesn't really know what he is on about. He's developed some pet hate of Muslim's who want to fight an anti-Muslim group and is just being stubborn. Classic behaviour on this forum.

[Killfacer]

^^^^

You think the majority of those young muslim men want to live under sharia law?

Edit, maybe i should clarify by secular i meant in the belief that state and religion should exist separately.

Sorry but how do you know all this? It seems like your making baseless assumptions.

Once again, it's not that i disagree with you but you evidently have as little of a clue about their political/religious opinions as me.

[Steve_j]

How do i know all what?

My original stament was a general response to melbs and nothing to do with the recent protest or my beliefs about the majority there.

You brought that up! So where are you trying to go with this?

[Killfacer]

I'm not trying to "go" anywhere, i'm simply stating that your making assumptions you have no evidence for.

[Steve_j]

And what assumptions are those?

[Atrus]

So, surely this man is no better than the EDL? The EDL trying to start a war against all Muslims [or perhaps all non-whites, I'm not certain on their ideology] and this man trying to start a war against all non-Muslims?
Where's the difference when they're both trying to start the same war?