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Richard Nixon
13th September 2009, 03:58
If you've got any gripe against objectivism post here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Peikoff


Peikoff claims that Palestinian people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people) prior to the establishment of the State of Israel consisted solely of "nomadic tribes meandering across the terrain," and that "the Arabs" today have no concept of property rights; indeed, that their "primitivist" antagonism to such rights is the root cause of Arab terrorism. He argues that Israel is a moral beacon which should not return any territory to Arabs or even negotiate with them. [2] (http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=418) Peikoff further argues that all Middle Eastern oil reserves are the rightful property of the West, "whose science, technology, and capital made its discovery and use possible." He advocates the outright destruction of "terrorist states," especially Iran, "as quickly as possible and with the fewest U.S. casualties, regardless of the countless innocents caught in the line of fire," not ruling out the use of nuclear weapons, arguing that moral responsibility for innocent deaths would lie with their governments rather than the United States. [3] (http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=2635)

http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=2635


End States That Sponsor Terrorism

by Leonard Peikoff (http://www.capmag.com/author.asp?ID=6) (October 2, 2001)
http://www.capmag.com/images2y346y/people/leonard_peikoff2.jpg Fifty years of increasing American appeasement in the Mideast have led to fifty years of increasing contempt in the Muslim world for the U.S. The climax was September 11, 2001.
Fifty years ago, Truman and Eisenhower surrendered the West's property rights in oil, although that oil rightfully belonged to those in the West whose science, technology, and capital made its discovery and use possible. The first country to nationalize Western oil, in 1951, was Iran. The rest, observing our frightened silence, hurried to grab their piece of the newly available loot.

The cause of the U.S. silence was not practical, but philosophical. The Mideast's dictators were denouncing wealthy egotistical capitalism. They were crying that their poor needed our sacrifice; that oil, like all property, is owned collectively, by virtue of birth; and that they knew their viewpoint was true by means of otherworldly emotion. Our Presidents had no answer. Implicitly, they were ashamed of the Declaration of Independence. They did not dare to answer that Americans, properly, were motivated by the selfish desire to achieve personal happiness in a rich, secular, individualist society.

The Muslim countries embodied in an extreme form every idea--selfless duty, anti-materialism, faith or feeling above science, the supremacy of the group--which our universities, our churches, and our own political Establishment had long been upholding as virtue. When two groups, our leadership and theirs, accept the same basic ideas, the most consistent side wins.

After property came liberty. "The Muslim fundamentalist movement," writes Yale historian Lamin Sanneh, "began in 1979 with the Iranian [theocratic] revolution . . ." (New York Times 9/23/01). During his first year as its leader, Ayatollah Khomeini, urging a Jihad against "the Great Satan," kidnapped 52 U.S. diplomatic personnel and held them hostage; Carter's reaction was fumbling paralysis. About a decade later, Iran topped this evil. Khomeini issued his infamous Fatwa aimed at censoring, even outside his borders, any ideas uncongenial to Muslim sensibility. This was the meaning of his threat to kill British author Rushdie and to destroy his American publisher; their crime was the exercise of their right to express an unpopular intellectual viewpoint. The Fatwa was Iran's attempt, reaffirmed after Khomeini's death, to stifle, anywhere in the world, the very process of thought. Bush Sr. looked the other way.

After liberty came American life itself. The first killers were the Palestinian hijackers of the late 1960s. But the killing spree which has now shattered our soaring landmarks, our daily routine, and our souls, began in earnest only after the license granted by Carter and Bush Sr.

Many nations work to fill our body bags. But Iran, according to a State Department report of 1999, is "the most active state sponsor of terrorism," training and arming groups from all over the Mideast, including Islamic Jihad, Hamas, and Hezbollah. Nor is Iran's government now "moderating." Five months ago, the world's leading terrorist groups resolved to unite in a holy war against the U.S., which they called "a second Israel"; their meeting was held in Teheran. (Fox News 9/16/01)

What has been the U.S. response to the above? In 1996, nineteen U.S. soldiers were killed in their barracks in Saudi Arabia. According to a front-page story in The New York Times (6/21/98): "Evidence suggesting that Iran sponsored the attack has further complicated the investigation, because the United States and Saudi Arabia have recently sought to improve relations with a new, relatively moderate Government in Teheran." In other words, Clinton evaded Iran's role because he wanted what he called "a genuine reconciliation." In public, of course, he continued to vow that he would find and punish the guilty. This inaction of Clinton's is comparable to his action after bin Laden's attack on U.S. embassies in East Africa; his action was the gingerly bombing of two meaningless targets.

Conservatives are equally responsible for today's crisis, as Reagan's record attests. Reagan not only failed to retaliate after 241 U.S. marines in Lebanon were slaughtered; he did worse. Holding that Islamic guerrillas were our ideological allies because of their fight against the atheistic Soviets, he methodically poured money and expertise into Afghanistan. This put the U.S. wholesale into the business of creating terrorists. Most of them regarded fighting the Soviets as only the beginning; our turn soon came.

For over a decade, there was another guarantee of American impotence: the notion that a terrorist is alone responsible for his actions, and that each, therefore, must be tried as an individual before a court of law. This viewpoint, thankfully, is fading; most people now understand that terrorists exist only through the sanction and support of a government.

We need not prove the identity of any of these creatures, because terrorism is not an issue of personalities. It cannot be stopped by destroying bin Laden and the al-Qaeda army, or even by destroying the destroyers everywhere. If that is all we do, a new army of militants will soon rise up to replace the old one.

The behavior of such militants is that of the regimes which make them possible. Their atrocities are not crimes, but acts of war. The proper response, as the public now understands, is a war in self-defense. In the excellent words of Paul Wolfowitz, deputy secretary of defense, we must "end states who sponsor terrorism."

A proper war in self-defense is one fought without self-crippling restrictions placed on our commanders in the field. It must be fought with the most effective weapons we possess (a few weeks ago, Rumsfeld refused, correctly, to rule out nuclear weapons). And it must be fought in a manner that secures victory as quickly as possible and with the fewest U.S. casualties, regardless of the countless innocents caught in the line of fire. These innocents suffer and die because of the action of their own government in sponsoring the initiation of force against America. Their fate, therefore, is their government's moral responsibility. There is no way for our bullets to be aimed only at evil men.

The public understandably demands retaliation against Afghanistan. But in the wider context Afghanistan is insignificant. It is too devastated even to breed many fanatics. Since it is no more these days than a place to hide, its elimination would do little to end terrorism.

Terrorism is a specific disease, which can be treated only by a specific antidote. The nature of the disease (though not of its antidote) has been suggested by Serge Schmemann (NYT 9/16/01). Our struggle now, he writes, is "not a struggle against a conventional guerrilla force, whose yearning for a national homeland or the satisfaction of some grievance could be satisfied or denied. The terrorists [on Tuesday] . . . issued no demands, no ultimatums. They did it solely out of grievance and hatred--hatred for the values cherished in the West as freedom, tolerance, prosperity, religious pluralism and universal suffrage, but abhorred by religious fundamentalists (and not only Muslim fundamentalists) as licentiousness, corruption, greed and apostasy."

Every word of this is true. The obvious implication is that the struggle against terrorism is not a struggle over Palestine. It is a clash of cultures, and thus a struggle of ideas, which can be dealt with, ultimately, only by intellectual means. But this fact does not depreciate the crucial role of our armed forces. On the contrary, it increases their effectiveness, by pointing them to the right target.

Most of the Mideast is ruled by thugs who would be paralyzed by an American victory over any of their neighbors. Iran, by contrast, is the only major country there ruled by zealots dedicated not to material gain (such as more wealth or territory), but to the triumph by any means, however violent, of the Muslim fundamentalist movement they brought to life. That is why Iran manufactures the most terrorists.

If one were under a Nazi aerial bombardment, it would be senseless to restrict oneself to combatting Nazi satellites while ignoring Germany and the ideological plague it was working to spread. What Germany was to Nazism in the 1940s, Iran is to terrorism today. Whatever else it does, therefore, the U.S. can put an end to the Jihad-mongers only by taking out Iran.

Eliminating Iran's terrorist sanctuaries and military capability is not enough. We must do the equivalent of de-Nazifying the country, by expelling every official and bringing down every branch of its government. This goal cannot be achieved painlessly, by weaponry alone. It requires invasion by ground troops, who will be at serious risk, and perhaps a period of occupation. But nothing less will "end the state" that most cries out to be ended.

The greatest obstacle to U.S. victory is not Iran and its allies, but our own intellectuals. Even now, they are advocating the same ideas that caused our historical paralysis. They are asking a reeling nation to show neighbor-love by shunning "vengeance." The multiculturalists--rejecting the concept of objectivity--are urging us to "understand" the Arabs and avoid "racism" (i.e., any condemnation of any group's culture). The friends of "peace" are reminding us, ever more loudly, to "remember Hiroshima" and beware the sin of pride.

These are the kinds of voices being heard in the universities, the churches, and the media as the country recovers from its first shock, and the professoriate et al. feel emboldened to resume business as usual. These voices are a siren song luring us to untroubled sleep while the fanatics proceed to gut America.

Tragically, Mr. Bush is attempting a compromise between the people's demand for a decisive war and the intellectuals' demand for appeasement.

It is likely that the Bush administration will soon launch an attack on bin Laden's organization in Afghanistan and possibly even attack the Taliban. Despite this, however, every sign indicates that Mr. Bush will repeat the mistakes made by his father in Iraq. As of October 1, the Taliban leadership appears not to be a target. Even worse, the administration refuses to target Iran, or any of the other countries identified by the State Department as terrorist regimes. On the contrary, Powell is seeking to add to the current coalition these very states--which is the equivalent of going into partnership with the Soviet Union in order to fight Communism (under the pretext, say, of proving that we are not anti-Russian). By seeking such a coalition, our President is asserting that he needs the support of terrorist nations in order to fight them. He is stating publicly that the world's only superpower does not have enough self-confidence or moral courage to act unilaterally in its own defense.

For some days now, Mr. Bush has been downplaying the role of our military, while praising the same policies (mainly negotiation and economic pressure) that have failed so spectacularly and for so long. Instead of attacking the roots of global terrorism, he seems to be settling for a "guerrilla war" against al-Qaeda, and a policy of unseating the Taliban passively, by aiding a motley coalition of native tribes. Our battle, he stresses, will be a "lengthy" one.

Mr. Bush's compromise will leave the primary creators of terrorism whole--and unafraid. His approach might satisfy our short-term desire for retribution, but it will guarantee catastrophe in the long term.

As yet, however, no overall policy has been solidified; the administration still seems to be groping. And an angry public still expects our government not merely to hobble terrorism for a while, but to eradicate it. The only hope left is that Mr. Bush will listen to the public, not to the professors and their progeny.

When should we act, if not now? If our appeasement has led to an escalation of disasters in the past, can it do otherwise in the future? Do we wait until our enemies master nuclear, chemical, and biological warfare?

The survival of America is at stake. The risk of a U.S. overreaction, therefore, is negligible. The only risk is underreaction.

Mr. Bush must reverse course. He must send our missiles and troops, in force, where they belong. And he must justify this action by declaring with righteous conviction that we have discarded the clichés of our paper-tiger past and that the U.S. now places America first.

There is still time to demonstrate that we take the war against terrorism seriously--as a sacred obligation to our Founding Fathers, to every victim of the men who hate this country, and to ourselves. There is still time to make the world understand that we will take up arms, anywhere and on principle, to secure an American's right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness on earth.

The choice today is mass death in the United States or mass death in the terrorist nations. Our Commander-In-Chief must decide whether it is his duty to save Americans or the governments who conspire to kill them.

The above article was published as a full-page advertisement in the New York Times on October 2, 2001.

Dr. Peikoff was associate editor, with Ayn Rand, of The Objectivist and The Ayn Rand Letter (1971-76). He is author of Objectivism: The Philosophy of Ayn Rand (http://www.peikoff.com/opar/). He is founder of the Ayn Rand Institute (http://www.aynrand.org/).


So Objectivists who believe that the rights of the individuals are the most important things in the world believe it's perfectly fine to kill millions in one part of the collective? As for the oil thing, shouldn't the person who first develops the oil field own it not the Western countries just because they developed the technology for it? Geez, I don't think this is what Ayn Rand wanted but it's what Leonard Peikoff wants.

PRC-UTE
13th September 2009, 07:28
Libertarian imperialism...didn't take long for that to come about.

How does that useful saying go again. I think it was, without mcdonnell douglas, there's no mcdonalds?

Plagueround
13th September 2009, 07:34
I've seen videos floating around where Rand makes pretty much the same argument as the first quote from Peikoff.

Kwisatz Haderach
13th September 2009, 09:01
Objectivism is a cult of strength. All such cults have a fascination for violence, destruction and bloodshed. It is how the "strong" prove themselves to be "strong."

Psychologically, Objectivism has the exact same appeal as fascism: It tells its members that they are strong, intelligent, and superior, and that the rest of the world mostly consists of weaklings who need to be crushed.

PRC-UTE
13th September 2009, 11:08
I've seen videos floating around where Rand makes pretty much the same argument as the first quote from Peikoff.

That makes sense. According to the wiki link (which I know can't be trusted), this Peikoff believes that Rand's sacred teachings can't be altered or exanded upon, such is their perfection :laugh:

Havet
13th September 2009, 11:18
As a post-objectivist i'd like to add my two cents:

I, of course, do not endorse Objectivism now. I like Atlas Shrugged as a fascinating story in which I appreciate the way it is written, but not necessarily all the arguments it leads to.

Objectivism can be broken down in 5 things:

Core
Metaphysics - Awesome

Epistemology - Awesome


Secondary
Ethics - Not the best

Politics - Kind of broken

Aesthetics - Not too shabby.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivist_metaphysics#Metaphysics:_objective_rea lity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivist_metaphysics#Epistemology:_reason

As for the rest, the conclusions she draws do not follow from her premises.

It's also worth noting that Objectivism and Randism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randism) and two different things

RHIZOMES
13th September 2009, 11:32
As a post-objectivist i'd like to add my two cents:

I, of course, do not endorse Objectivism now. I like Atlas Shrugged as a fascinating story in which I appreciate the way it is written, but not necessarily all the arguments it leads to.

Objectivism can be broken down in 5 things:

Core
Metaphysics - Awesome

Epistemology - Awesome


Secondary
Ethics - Not the best

Politics - Kind of broken

Aesthetics - Not too shabby.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivist_metaphysics#Metaphysics:_objective_rea lity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivist_metaphysics#Epistemology:_reason

As for the rest, the conclusions she draws do not follow from her premises.

It's also worth noting that Objectivism and Randism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randism) and two different things

What a bunch of mumbo-jumbo.

Havet
13th September 2009, 13:53
What a bunch of mumbo-jumbo.

What a great counter-argument.

mykittyhasaboner
13th September 2009, 14:39
^ Sorry but there is little need to counter-argue anything claiming to be related to "objectivism". So mumbo jumbo will do quite nicely.

Nwoye
13th September 2009, 14:43
Metaphysics - Awesome

Epistemology - Awesome
would you care to elaborate? Why are they awesome?

Havet
13th September 2009, 14:59
would you care to elaborate? Why are they awesome?

1) The metaphysical part of objectivism is "awesome" because it allows to reject notions we have heard our entire lives, such as the belief in "every 'spiritual' dimension, force, Form, Idea, entity, power, or whatnot alleged to transcend existence.

This rejection comes from the identification of several things, like the axiom of identity.

Rand held that since one is able to perceive something that exists, one's consciousness must exist, "consciousness being the faculty of perceiving that which exists."

"to be conscious is to be conscious of something," so that an objective reality independent of consciousness must exist for consciousness to be possible, and there is no possibility of a consciousness that is conscious of nothing outside itself. Thus consciousness cannot be the only thing that exists. "It cannot be aware only of itself — there is no 'itself' until it is aware of something."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2) As far as epistemology goes, it rejects faith and feeling as forms of knowledge, and embraces logic and reason as the only valid forms to acknowledge and understand reality, and to act upon it.

Rand acknowledged the importance of emotion in human beings, but she maintained that emotions are a consequence of the conscious or subconscious ideas that a person already accepts, not a means of achieving awareness of reality. "Emotions are not tools of cognition."

She defined faith as "the acceptance of allegations without evidence or proof, either apart from or against the evidence of one's senses and reason. ... Mysticism is the claim to some non-sensory, non-rational, non-definable, non-identifiable means of knowledge, such as 'instinct,' 'intuition,' 'revelation,' or any form of 'just knowing.'

Objectivist epistemology is consistent with the facts that human beings have limited knowledge, are vulnerable to error, and do not instantly understand all of the implications of their knowledge.

According to Peikoff, one can be certain of a proposition if all of the available evidence supports it; one is certain within the context of the evidence.

spiltteeth
13th September 2009, 19:25
1) The metaphysical part of objectivism is "awesome" because it allows to reject notions we have heard our entire lives, such as the belief in "every 'spiritual' dimension, force, Form, Idea, entity, power, or whatnot alleged to transcend existence.

This rejection comes from the identification of several things, like the axiom of identity.

Rand held that since one is able to perceive something that exists, one's consciousness must exist, "consciousness being the faculty of perceiving that which exists."

"to be conscious is to be conscious of something," so that an objective reality independent of consciousness must exist for consciousness to be possible, and there is no possibility of a consciousness that is conscious of nothing outside itself. Thus consciousness cannot be the only thing that exists. "It cannot be aware only of itself — there is no 'itself' until it is aware of something."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2) As far as epistemology goes, it rejects faith and feeling as forms of knowledge, and embraces logic and reason as the only valid forms to acknowledge and understand reality, and to act upon it.

Rand acknowledged the importance of emotion in human beings, but she maintained that emotions are a consequence of the conscious or subconscious ideas that a person already accepts, not a means of achieving awareness of reality. "Emotions are not tools of cognition."

She defined faith as "the acceptance of allegations without evidence or proof, either apart from or against the evidence of one's senses and reason. ... Mysticism is the claim to some non-sensory, non-rational, non-definable, non-identifiable means of knowledge, such as 'instinct,' 'intuition,' 'revelation,' or any form of 'just knowing.'

Objectivist epistemology is consistent with the facts that human beings have limited knowledge, are vulnerable to error, and do not instantly understand all of the implications of their knowledge.

According to Peikoff, one can be certain of a proposition if all of the available evidence supports it; one is certain within the context of the evidence.

So then one would be incorrect to act upon the impulse to love?

RGacky3
13th September 2009, 19:55
All morality is subjective, even if you believe in a God, your desicion to follow Gods morality is YOUR desicion and thus subjective.

However by subjective I don't mean pragmatic, YOUR morality is objectively, in other words nessesarily moral but for yourself.

In other words morality cannot be hypocritical, but it is subjective. If you say lying is wrong for such and such reasons then you must apply it universally, as much as it complies with your other morals and as much as it is possible. If your only applying it when it suits you then its not morality at all.

As for mr Leonard, his analysis is batshit insane. I would brake it down, but its almost a joke to give it that attention.

Demogorgon
13th September 2009, 22:15
Core
Metaphysics - Awesome

Epistemology - Awesome

Not really, the things about them you praise are actually pretty common to mainstream Western philosophy. Rand just lifted the prevailing ideas of the time and claimed them for her own. The difference is she reaches conclusions from them that are complete non sequitur.

Any as others have noted Objectivism is based in the same claim of superiority and contempt for "lesser beings" found in other authoritarian ideologies. The funniest aspect of it though is just how cultish it is. That leads to an amusingly collectivist outlook ironically enough.

Richard Nixon
13th September 2009, 22:47
That makes sense. According to the wiki link (which I know can't be trusted), this Peikoff believes that Rand's sacred teachings can't be altered or exanded upon, such is their perfection :laugh:

Yes and Peikoff has also "purged" members of the Objecetivist Movement who disagree with any portion of Rand's philosophy.

Kwisatz Haderach
13th September 2009, 23:09
As Demogorgon pointed out, "Objectivist" metaphysics and epistemology are shared by most of Western philosophy (including Marxism, I might add). Rand has no merit for them except perhaps expressing them in slightly different words.

The problem is that her ethical and political conclusions simply do not follow from the premises.

Havet
13th September 2009, 23:22
Not really, the things about them you praise are actually pretty common to mainstream Western philosophy. Rand just lifted the prevailing ideas of the time and claimed them for her own. The difference is she reaches conclusions from them that are complete non sequitur.

Well then, if she just borrowed ideas, then to hell with her.


Any as others have noted Objectivism is based in the same claim of superiority and contempt for "lesser beings" found in other authoritarian ideologies. The funniest aspect of it though is just how cultish it is. That leads to an amusingly collectivist outlook ironically enough.

Yes, in practice its followers end up indulging in the opposite of what they believe through doublethink.

Havet
13th September 2009, 23:23
The problem is that her ethical and political conclusions simply do not follow from the premises.

I agree

Richard Nixon
13th September 2009, 23:46
BTW, why is it that most Objectivists seem to look rather thin, almost unhealthily thin?

Demogorgon
14th September 2009, 00:10
BTW, why is it that most Objectivists seem to look rather thin, almost unhealthily thin?I'm not sure that they do, I've met chubby ones, but that does remind me of something Murray Rothbard claimed. To be fair he is never the best source but he did claim that a characteristic of the Objectivist cult was they believed it was irrational to enjoy food and should only be tolerated out of necessity.

Demogorgon
14th September 2009, 00:32
Here is Rothbard's essay incidentally

http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard23.html

You probably have to take him with a pinch of salt. Some have dismissed this as one cult leader attacking a rival cult leader who was preying on the same recruiting grounds and therefore needed to be undermined but there is at least some truth to what he says.

Revy
14th September 2009, 00:45
Perhaps the most offensive thing about Objectivism is that it claims to be "objective".

Havet
14th September 2009, 17:55
I'm not sure that they do, I've met chubby ones, but that does remind me of something Murray Rothbard claimed. To be fair he is never the best source but he did claim that a characteristic of the Objectivist cult was they believed it was irrational to enjoy food and should only be tolerated out of necessity.

lmfao, really? haha

Dimentio
14th September 2009, 22:35
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5404826610265339909

Murray Rothbard seemed to dislike the objectivists. But this play has given little me a couple of ideas.

Hä hä hä ;)

But on a more serious note, I re-read the Lightning and the Sun today just to get a chuckle. And I must say that Savitri Devi makes Ayn Rand appear not as insane anymore.

Richard Nixon
20th September 2009, 03:09
I was reading the part about Ellsworth Toohey to-day in the Fountainhead and his biographical description was quite similar to mine.:scared::ohmy: