proud of being gay?? i really dont get it at all

[danyboy27]

i am not an homophobe, some people in my family are openly gay and seriously i dont make a big deal about it.

but what stun me is the number of people who feel like they have to feel some kind of pride to be gay.

i still dont understand in what being gay is a source of pride, being gay is like being black or withe or canadian, its something you have when you get born, there is no need to be overly proud of something you have to live with anyway.

then again, maybe i just dont understand the whole thing.

what do you think?

[Jimmie Higgins]

I think if people are constantly telling you to be ashamed of who you are, then "pride" is a natural and expected response.

For generations US blacks were told that the lighter your skin, the straighter your hair, the better looking you are. When the civil rights movement began to fight back against oppression, many young blacks latched onto songs like "I'm black and I'm proud" or cheered the bravado of Muhammad Ali.

Where I grew up, many people were called wetbacks and white trash - the typical response was to show "pride" in your background.

Tons of country, hip-hop, and rock songs are all about pride for poor people or rural people or black people. That gay people want to promote "pride" as a kind of cultral fight-back against oppression is totally understandable.

[StalinFanboy]

It has to do with homosexuals and transsexuals being marginalized.

[danyboy27]

its indeed a good thing to remember the people who make society more progressive but i still cant understand that whole pride thing.

i was born poor and i succeded into making my life a lot easier by working hard, and i am really proud of that, proud of the stuff i have been thru, but i dont feel any pride of being a former poor at all.

i was born poor, i didnt choose it, its happened, that it.

[GPDP]

I don't think pride is necessarily a rational sentiment, though it is definitely understandable depending on the context.

Like the previous posters said, homosexuals have been a historically marginalized and oppressed group. As such, once the movement began to organize against this oppression and gains were made, the feelings of pride were only natural.

[danyboy27]

I don't think pride is necessarily a rational sentiment, though it is definitely understandable depending on the context.

Like the previous posters said, homosexuals have been a historically marginalized and oppressed group. As such, once the movement began to organize against this oppression and gains were made, the feelings of pride were only natural.

is it the same thing with the poor too?

[spiltteeth]

its indeed a good thing to remember the people who make society more progressive but i still cant understand that whole pride thing.

i was born poor and i succeded into making my life a lot easier by working hard, and i am really proud of that, proud of the stuff i have been thru, but i dont feel any pride of being a former poor at all.

i was born poor, i didnt choose it, its happened, that it.

Well, I'm proud of you.

I think 'gay pride' is just an affirmation of being, in a totally just society it would be meaningless, but in a society that is still largely homophobic, affirming pride is a way to combat the overwhelming messages of shame that society assaults us with.

What if society was constantly telling you that being born poor was disgusting, morally wrong, that you chose poverty and you choice is repugnant, that being poor is disgusting and marks your character with ugliness for life etc etc
How do you dissent? Gay pride is a positive, healthy form of dissent, I believe.

Incidentally, my aunt, it is rumored in my family, was locked away in a mental institution and given a lobotomy for being gay. If you look at the history, this was not an uncommon practice a mere few decades ago.

[danyboy27]

i think i get the idea, its been a great and civilised discussion so far, something rare in the OI.

so far i understand that its not real pride but some kind of affirmation.

but still, dont ask me to be proud of someone in particular just beccause he gay or black or white, i dont think its enough.

its not a hate statement, its just dont have any particular sympathy or hate for a group of people in particular, to me a person is a person.

[mumba miss]

I am proud of gay people i know, because it takes a huge amount of guts to come out of the closet, let alone be a gay man or woman even in this day and age

[h0m0revolutionary]

It's not about Pride, it's about visability. It's about not merely invisibly blending into a heteronomative society and denying your sexuality is an issue. Sexuality in a homophobic, patriarchal society will always be an issue because there is no escaping it's politicalisation, not necessarily by LGBTQ individuals, but by wider sexually conservative society.

When LGBTQ individuals are down-trodden, and their sexual inclinations made to be thought of a deviant, there will be an eruption from that, and that is what has come to be termed gay pride. It isn't about marking yourself as different to exclsuive heterosexuals, but celebrating the distinctive values of LGBTQ identity.

Revolutionaries should recognise peoples right to express their challenges to wider society in whatever way they see fit.

[Comrade B]

Gays are encouraged in western society often to be ashamed of who they are, the idea of gay pride is simply saying that you have no shame about who you are.

[RGacky3]

I think if people are constantly telling you to be ashamed of who you are, then "pride" is a natural and expected response.

excactly, in societies where homosexuality is'nt a big deal, which is increasingly the case in some parts of the west, gay pride is'nt a big deal, there really is'nt much of a distinction. The same goes for race.

[Dean]

i am not an homophobe, some people in my family are openly gay and seriously i dont make a big deal about it.

but what stun me is the number of people who feel like they have to feel some kind of pride to be gay.

i still dont understand in what being gay is a source of pride, being gay is like being black or withe or canadian, its something you have when you get born, there is no need to be overly proud of something you have to live with anyway.

then again, maybe i just dont understand the whole thing.

what do you think?

Gay pride combats the intense amount of shame that homosexuals are pressured by in our society. While I understand and agree with the theoretical point (i.e. arbitrary distinctions should not be a point of pride), there are real civil rights concerns that this pride is addressing, and is often necessary as such.

[Richard Nixon]

I am proud of gay people i know, because it takes a huge amount of guts to come out of the closet, let alone be a gay man or woman even in this day and age

Maybe that's true in Alabama but gays are tolerated in a large portion of the US including California, the Northwest, the Northeast, and Florida.

[danyboy27]

i am really proud of the people who dare come out of the closet but i dont associate this effort with their sexual identity.

i am not proud of them beccause they are gay but beccause they did a courageous thing.

[Demogorgon]

People come up with this all the time and it is based upon not understanding the term "pride" properly. It isn't being proud of an achievement but rather showing the opposite of shame. As in a statement that gay people are not to be shamed and can publicly affirm where they are without having to consider sexuality a nasty extra.

Granted a lot of gay pride parades have somewhat lost sight of that these days, but they are more about carnival and spectacle anyway.

[Ultra-Violence]

Its like being a person of color for example Its a method of self denfense to be proud of who u are! people of color have nothing but thier identity same as how homosexsuals/transgendgers are made to look like evil people they are just reacting back by saying NO! WE ARE QUEER AND WE HAVE NO MOTHER FUCKING FEAR! try being a homosexual for a day and see how much shit u get from people

[danyboy27]

Its like being a person of color for example Its a method of self denfense to be proud of who u are! people of color have nothing but thier identity same as how homosexsuals/transgendgers are made to look like evil people they are just reacting back by saying NO! WE ARE QUEER AND WE HAVE NO MOTHER FUCKING FEAR! try being a homosexual for a day and see how much shit u get from people

calm down dude.

i disagree, a gay dude is much more than its sexual attraction and a black dude is much more than someone with a darker skin.

if you center yourself only around those physiological traits then something wrong and you basicly score a goal for all those assoles who crave on stereotypes about differents peoples

its like white people focusing all the time on how they are proud of being withe and feel the endless need to remind everyone they are from a pure white family etc etc.

hey i think its great that gay people show some affirmation and ask to be respected like everyone else, i just think its wrong to put the enphasis only on those details all the time.

if a dude would show up at my office telling he openely gay i would not mind at all you know, but if he would constantly remind me all the time that he gay i might find it somehow abusive, and i think if i would go see some black guy i work with and constantly remind them i am white that i am really different from them etc etc they would find it abusive too.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Maybe that's true in Alabama but gays are tolerated in a large portion of the US including California, the Northwest, the Northeast, and Florida.

If I said I tolerated your new shirt, what would that tell you about what I thought about that shirt.

Try introducing a children's book where 2 parents are same sex into a school district in any of these tolerant state and see how tolerant the media and local politicians here are.

Yes in California, the LGBT movement has greatly helped win many rights for people, but we will need more militant movements to really make change.

Despite many advances in Califronia, people still regularly get killed for being gay. In West Hollywood a few years ago, there were people doing serial assaults on gay couples on the street - I think some may have been killed in fact. And that's West Hollywood and if a gay or lesbian adult should feel safe anywhere you'd think it would be in a gay enclave.

In Sacramento this radio DJs said that children who show "transgender tendencies or behaviors" should have it "beaten out of them". Thankfully public pressure made the radio station apologize because last year in Sacramento there was a series of bigotry-motivated killings of gay people in downtown Sacramento.

[Jimmie Higgins]

calm down dude.

i disagree, a gay dude is much more than its sexual attraction and a black dude is much more than someone with a darker skin.

if you center yourself only around those physiological traits then something wrong and you basicly score a goal for all those assoles who crave on stereotypes about differents peoples

its like white people focusing all the time on how they are proud of being withe and feel the endless need to remind everyone they are from a pure white family etc etc.

hey i think its great that gay people show some affirmation and ask to be respected like everyone else, i just think its wrong to put the enphasis only on those details all the time.

if a dude would show up at my office telling he openly gay i would not mind at all you know, but if he would constantly remind me all the time that he gay i might find it somehow abusive, and i think if i would go see some black guy i work with and constantly remind them i am white that i am really different from them etc etc they would find it abusive too.

You act like there is no such thing as systematic oppression - like as if people with long eyelashes were planning marches to celebrate their long eyelashes or something.

Opressed groups like LGBT people and Black people didn't choose to have banks and lenders choose to give minorities bad loans or redline them into segregated ghetto neighborhoods. Gay people didn't choose to be fired by the thousands each year from government jobs in the 60s or to be cut out of many of the rights heterosexual couples have.

Maybe you don't care about some one else being gay or black, but socially it matters a great deal. Take for example Oscar Grant who was shot in the back by subway police in my neighborhood for being suspected of being rowdy on the train at 2 am on New Years. Last Friday I took the train home from my evening shift and the UC Berkley football game had ended earlier than night. While waiting for my train drunk white students with football shirts got in a fight within sight of police; the fight broke itself up and the cops didn't do anything. Someone threw up on the platform and people were yelling constantly and shouting obscenities and threatening eachother. Hmm, if it were a bunch of black, latino, arab or gay people leaving a club that rowdy, do you think the cops would have taken a "well boys will be boys" attitude? Apparently you can't even be a rich black academic and get away with talking back to a cop inside your own house.

[Orange Juche]

Maybe that's true in Alabama but gays are tolerated in a large portion of the US including California, the Northwest, the Northeast, and Florida.

I'm from New York, with gay and bisexual friends. What you are saying is factually incorrect. It's certainly accepted far more than in somewhere like Alabama, but to say that they are completely "tolerated" isn't true.

[danyboy27]

yes systematic opression exist, and they have the right to fight back against that, i never said otherwise.

but has i said earlier i understand now why there is that pride thingy for the minorities, its a defense mechanism.

its just that, personally, i dont see the point of being proud of some physiological traits but i can understand that social condition make it a necessity for certain person.

so far i am verry happy of the results of this discussion, verry civilised and all that. maybe its time to lock it before someone hijack it and turn it into a flame fest.

[ls]

Maybe that's true in Alabama but gays are tolerated in a large portion of the US including California, the Northwest, the Northeast, and Florida.

Only to an extent, there are so many in all those states and areas who don't as well.

[Ultra-Violence]

yes systematic opression exist, and they have the right to fight back against that, i never said otherwise.

but has i said earlier i understand now why there is that pride thingy for the minorities, its a defense mechanism.

its just that, personally, i dont see the point of being proud of some physiological traits but i can understand that social condition make it a necessity for certain person.

so far i am verry happy of the results of this discussion, verry civilised and all that. maybe its time to lock it before someone hijack it and turn it into a flame fest.


no body is turining this into a flame fest maybe some are just emotionaly tied to the subject? like my self

but continuing on with the converstation i dont know why it bugs u so much for some one to be proud of who they are especaily when they are a heavily discrimanted community as its their only way to even feel good about themselves

[Bud Struggle]

This song was originally written by Tom Robinson for the London Gay Pride march in 1976. It was released in 1978 as one of a four tracks EP called "Rising Free". BBC Radio 1 refused to play this song and instead played the less controversial opening track "Don't Take No For An Answer".

The British Police are the best in the world
I don't believe one of these stories I've heard
'Bout them raiding our pubs for no reason at all
Lining the customers up by the wall
Picking out people and knocking them down
Resisting arrest as they're kicked on the ground
Searching their houses and calling them queer
I don't believe that sort of thing happens here
Sing if you're glad to be gay
Sing if you're happy that way

Pictures of naked young women are fun
In Titbits and Playboy, page three of The Sun
There's no nudes in Gay News our last magazine
But they still find excuses to call it obscene
Read how disgusting we are in the press
The News of The World and the Sunday Express
Molesters of children, corruptors of youth
It's there in the paper, it must be the truth
Sing if you're glad to be gay
Sing if you're happy that way

Don't try to kid us that if you're discreet
You're perfectly safe as you walk down the street
You don't have to mince or make *****y remarks
To get beaten unconscious and left in the dark
I had a friend who was gentle and short
Got lonely one evening and went for a walk
Queerbashers caught him and kicked in his teeth
He was only hospitalised for a week
Sing if you're glad to be gay
Sing if you're happy that way

So sit back and watch as they close all our clubs
Arrest us for meeting and raid all our pubs
Make sure your boyfriend's at least 21
So only your friends and your brothers get done
Lie to your workmates, lie to your folks
Put down the queens and tell anti-queer jokes
Gay Lib's ridiculous, join their laughter
'The buggers are legal now, what more are they after?'
Sing if you're glad to be gay
Sing if you're happy that way

[Kronos]

Beside the fact that nature works in mysterious ways (gender having a pheromonal attraction to the same gender), and capitalist/consumerist discourse, which is responsible for sublimating the cultural interests that influence sexuality....ranging anywhere from market advertisement and semiotics to a father who is an emasculated wuss or an overbearing mother who wanted a daughter instead (making the little fella gay before he knew it), I don't mind guys who putt from the rough, or gals who wear flannel shirts and work in landscaping. Hey, being a human being is very confusing, complicated stuff. We do what we can.

Let's hear what Harry as a boy has to say about it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20Lev14l7aw

[Bud Struggle]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHG2LJGfEdw[Edit: I think the best song about being gay ever.]

And this is 1976. Freakin' awsome.

Just look at these guys. The pain is all there. If you aren't proud of these guys--there is something missing in your understanding of human struggle.

I definitely have gay pride when I see men like this.

[Comrade Corwin]

Kronos... I'm not even sure what to make out of your post, but I can tell you that the video about made me want to kill myself. I'm not even sure what it was supposed to get across.

Thanks for the post, Bud Struggle! That is a good song, which the lyrics were given above, but it was better to see it as a visual.

I can tell you one thing about gay pride, being as I am a homosexual in the United States. When I was a young boy growing up in my small rural town of Saluda, Virginia I didn't understand the feelings I had and what I did understand I was told was wrong by the jokes and gay-bashing comments which were prevelently spewed by my friends and peers. Before I truly realized that the term "gay" or "homosexual" applied to me, I sometimes thought I was the only person in the world who thought this way (as odd as that may sound) and I'm not sure that anyone outside of those who are gay can understand how truly alone and depressed I felt. Fortunately for me, my mother was uncharacteristically supportive and she assisted by taking me to sexual minority youth groups and gay pride events and I found out there were others like me and that it wasn't something to be ashamed of. VERY FEW have the chances I have that kind of support. I don't let my sexuality identify me, but it has decided my future and my options whether I like it or not and it was pride that softened the harsh blow I've felt by the bigotry that is obscenely present throughout the entirety of the world and in which there is yet to be a true escape.

[Robert]

Man, they were great!

[mannetje]

i am not an homophobe, some people in my family are openly gay and seriously i dont make a big deal about it.

but what stun me is the number of people who feel like they have to feel some kind of pride to be gay.

i still dont understand in what being gay is a source of pride, being gay is like being black or withe or canadian, its something you have when you get born, there is no need to be overly proud of something you have to live with anyway.

then again, maybe i just dont understand the whole thing.

what do you think?where I'm from it isn't much of a big problem to be gay anymore. that's one of the few things i like about my country, for an example gay people can get married. But I also can't understand why to be proud of something your are given at birth. I straight but I'm not proud about it. i'm happy about it though bat that is a different matter.

[Rosa Provokateur]

I understand where you're coming from dany and, hopefully, we'll live to see a day when gay pride no longer exists.

The thing about being gay is that unlike other so-called "minorities" (chicanos, women, etc.) it's not usually possible to know someone's orientation unless they tell you. Pride is a way of trying to make up for that, making our position as a "minority" known to others and choosing to not take it as a burden but as liberation.

Pride lets us know that we're not alone in this world, that there are others like us, that we have value, and that we're as good as anybody else.