Cuban man sentenced to 2 years for saying he was hungry.

[The Feral Underclass]

It's quite amazing that telling people you're hungry can be considered "public dangerousness"...Whatever the fuck that means!


----



A Cuban appeals court upheld a two-year prison sentence for "public dangerousness" against a man who became an internet (http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/internet) celebrity after his drunken rant about hunger on the island was captured by a film crew.
The

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/sep/11/cuba-internet-hunger-rant-marcos

[Q]

There is more to this story, we just don't know what it is. Clearly bullshit.
So, why is it "clearly" bullshit if we don't know more about the alleged other sides of this story? Nice logical fallacy.

[Eat the Rich]

Although the Guardian is by no means a reliable source whenever it comes to Cuba, this is one of the examples of non-democratic bureaucratic rule.
A real workers state would take into account people who say they are hungry and with a democratic plan, try to solve the problem by allocating the needed resources for food production (or whatever is needed). In order for this person to do this, it means that the state simply does not give a fuck and people resort to crazy shit in order for someone to hear their needs.

The action of this man on the other hand, played right into the hands of the reactionaries in Miami and the imperialists. So did the actions of the bureaucrats, giving a chance to the worlds reactionaries to start attacking the Cuban planned economy and of course for new anti-communist hysterics.

[Q]

Prima facie is not a "logical fallacy", I didn't know that every propagandist lie had to be researched. Fine, I will do the research and get back to you.
Thank you.

[cb9's_unity]

I would like to see this defended by one of the pro-cuba people on this site. Well I am defending it with facts or evidence instead of calling "clearly bullshit".

I know the western media is not usually fair to Cuba but this is a very specific claim that, it it is not true, deserves a very specific refutation.

[Gravedigger01]

The Cuban government was well out of order there but it has only become a huge news story because it involved Cuba.If it was China or some other country that would't be given the time of day never mind becoming an internet sensation

[Gravedigger01]

Its greatly exxagerated but I don't think you can dismiss it as trash

[Yunus]

Perhaps the link to the article should have carried some more commentary to create debate so we know just where the disagreement is.

The philosopher Slavoj Zizek quite rightly points out that we should not allow our subjective reactions to determine our overall response to situations and events because under this subjective reaction, objective reality exists. Subjectively, we should quite rightly oppose what the article states – if it is indeed true.

Objectively, the Cuban state is under intense international pressure as we all know. They cannot tolerate anything which might harm public morale or confidence in the socialist system, even despite some of its obvious flaws and shortcomings. And this approach in itself, will in my opinion prove harmful in the long run if and when "opening up" Chinese style becomes vogue.

[brigadista]

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/

"justice" in the "free world".....

[revolution inaction]

"Commie Club" members forwarding reactionary lies from the bourgousie. What gives?

There is much to criticize regarding Cuba, this is not it, its just reactionary garbage meant to acclimate the masses to the possibility of imperialist overthrow of Cuba. Although, I don't believe it will work, because even the smallest amount of research even from within the bougoise media prove that this so-called "news story" is trash!

the story you linked to still says he got sent to prison for 2 years.
Why are you defending the cuban state capitalists?

[Q]

If it is simply a matter of being tricked by the media, I understand, it happens to everyon, but I would like some of you Commie Club Members to clarify your position on this issue.

The Anarchist Tension (http://www.revleft.com/vb/member.php?u=8425) and Q (http://www.revleft.com/vb/member.php?u=12488), do you stand by your analysis?
What analysis? TAT posted a link to an article which reported a man being sentenced 2 years in prison for acting stupid while drunk. I pointed out that saying the article is bullshit because it is from a rightwing source is a stupid claim to make. Come up with something that makes the 2 year sentence more credible if you want to say it is bullshit, back it up or people will simply not listen to you.


Being a communist should mean that you strive for truth. Meaning you change your concepts regarding society to fit what you have learned, not the other way around. You don't claim that material conditions are not what they are to support your world view. This must be internalized or you will fall short of being a communist an exist only as an ideologue or pundit.
What on Earth are you talking about? How is yelling "it's a lie!" without any knowing any background information "striving for truth"? :confused:

[revolution inaction]

No. My posts don't support Cuba 100%. I said:

I don't particularly agree with locking drunks up for years because of what they are saying when they are drunk, but he is not telling the truth, he's a freakin subsversive and a liar who has yet to make a real criticism. That shit may fly if you live in relative safety, but in the shadow of America, you get the slammer.

you blatantly are defending the cuban state, else why do you keep calling him a lier as if that some how justifys locking him up?

[revolution inaction]

I don't know if you are fooled by that little thing next to name that says "junior revolutionary" or what, but I wasn't born yesterday and I know bullshit when I smell it. People in Cuba don't get sent to jail for saying "I'm hungry".


the story you linked to says thats what happend

[Durruti's Ghost]

What? His own friends say he is a drunk and a liar!

No country that calls itself "socialist" should lock someone up for being a drunk and a liar. :glare:

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

This news report tells the story of a liar and a drunk acting crazy because he is drunk and muggin for the camera.

I don't stick up for Cuba on everything but c'mon who listens to drunk peoples' rants and takes them seriously?

I think that the Cuban government overreacts to things like this:

1.Because they have been in an embargo situation for decades

2. Being 50 or so miles from the most brutal/powerful imperialist country puts them in a militarily poor position - they need unity

3. They know the power of propoganda, because they've used it effectively in the past

4. Socialist/Communist societies inherently require a certain amount of honesty and people have to be responsible for what they do. Under capitalism, sure you can get drunk and say whatever you want, but not in a socialist-leaning society surrounded by imperialists, that's the issue.

5. People like this drunk a-hole make it easier for opposition groups to get support for invading Cuba.

I don't particularly agree with locking drunks up for years because of what they are saying when they are drunk, but he is not telling the truth, he's a freakin subsversive and a liar who has yet to make a real criticism. That shit may fly if you live in relative safety, but in the shadow of America, you get the slammer.

The only line is the party line.

You are not hungry.

That is imperialist propganda.

[Intelligitimate]

TAT and Q, still acting as the slavish lapdogs of imperialism, I see.

[revolution inaction]

What? His own friends say he is a drunk and a liar!

since when did being a drunk and a liar merit two years in prison?
Secondly if a he where telling the truth do you think anyone would want to say the same thing, seen what just happened to him?

[scarletghoul]

This guy, whether meaning to or not, was acting as an agent of capitalist propaganda. This becomes clear when you look at how the American press has jumped on the story. Here's an extract from http://www.huffingtonpost.com/yoani-sanchez/two-years-in-prison-for-a_b_260558.html : "He could have been an alcoholic lying on a street corner sleeping off his inebriation, like so many others in this city, but he also wanted to act. He jumped in front of a camera and cried for food which, along with yearning for change, has become the national obsession." bla bla bla.

When you're constantly under attack from the world's only superpower, the propaganda war is terribly important, and you can't let people troll like this.

(and if anyone does believe that Cubans are starving then... damn... :laugh:)

[Steve_j]

The things that he said were not true

What exactly did he say, and what was not true about them?



The Guardian article is bullshit

Why.. What was bullshit about it? He didnt get locked up for saying that the people are hungry?

[cb9's_unity]

The drunk man's words have surprisingly little to do with it. The man claimed he was discontented while he was drunk and the Cuban government gave him two years in prison.

I usually don't take drunken statements seriously, i couldn't give two shits about what the guy said and you shouldn't either. The entirety of this story surrounds the actions of the Cuban government and its attack on free speech. Average citizens should be able to express their discontent to their government and to the world, the man happened to do it in front of a camera and now he's paying a high price.

[shadowmare]

I have a feeling there is more to this then what they are saying
You get that a lot in imperialist media...

[Steve_j]

He got locked up for saying that he/people are hungry when they are NOT

So no one is hungry in cuba? And the streets are paved with gold and every one is happy.



in a country less than 50 miles from its biggest enemy who has attacked it several times... etc etc etc

Ah so its ok then :bored: Yeah... lock him up and throw away the key.

[Durruti's Ghost]

There are things you can't say in the U.S. too. Freedom of speech is patently untrue. If you don't believe me, wear a "Death to America" or "God is a fairy tale" t-shirt and we will see how much "freedom of speech" you have.

The deficiencies of capitalist countries are irrelevant. Countries claiming to be socialist should hold themselves to a much higher standard.

[The Feral Underclass]

First of all the Guardian isn't a right wing source. Secondly, the article suggests the man was put into prison for discussing the dire economic situation in Cuba. While the Guardian can't always be trusted, I have not seen any evidence that what they have reported isn't true.

I don't know a lot about drunk and disorderly charges in Cuba, but my assumption is the average drunk person doesn't get sentenced to 2 years in prison. Unless of course they get caught by a documentary film crew slagging of the government.

Whatever the "official" reasons for this man's incarceration, it seems abundantly clear that the punishment meted out to him was wholly out of proportion, indicating to me that there was a more sinister motivation for it.

[brigadista]

First of all the Guardian isn't a right wing source. Secondly, the article suggests the man was put into prison for discussing the dire economic situation in Cuba. While the Guardian can't always be trusted, I have not seen any evidence that what they have reported isn't true.

I don't know a lot about drunk and disorderly charges in Cuba, but my assumption is the average drunk person doesn't get sentenced to 2 years in prison. Unless of course they get caught by a documentary film crew slagging of the government.

Whatever the "official" reasons for this man's incarceration, it seems abundantly clear that the punishment meted out to him was wholly out of proportion, indicating to me that there was a more sinister motivation for it.


and of course punishments in the west are proportionate...and the guardian is a new labour supporting paper

[The Feral Underclass]

and of course punishments in the west are proportionate

No, of course they're not, even making the suggestion that they are, or indeed that I implied they were, would be a totally absurd thing for you to do.

But we're not talking about a "western" country, we're talking about a nation being defended in this thread as "socialist" and which itself proclaims to be.


and the guardian is a new labour supporting paper

That doesn't mean everything within its pages are unsubstantiated lies hashed out by the magical minds of Downing Street and the blood thirsty capitalist machine.

[The Feral Underclass]

Its out of proportion for YOU! But at certain times and places, when idiots like him get drunk and talk nonsense their words can be used as propoganda by the imperialists.

So you're not denying that he was sent to prison for criticising the government, you're defending their decision to send him to prison for criticising the government.

Of course it's incredibly important for states to stop their citizens from telling the truth. The truth is a very dangerous thing.


That type of propaganda coming from Cubans in Cuba could lead to the country being bombed.What, the propaganda of truth...!


Literally bombs falling from the sky on men women and children.Don't be ridiculous.


You must realize that the countries we call imperialist are just that. If given the excuse (even a false one like weapons of mass ditruction in Iraq) and they also have political pressure and motivation to attack, they will do it. This drunk person is giving the imperialists one part of the equation that they need (the excuse to attack).I don't accept this warped logic at all. Least of all because Raul Castro is opening parts of the Island to western investment. I find it highly unlikely that a man telling the world he's hungry is going to compel the western powers to full out invasion of Cuba.

To make that suggestions is pointedly ridiculous.

[Durruti's Ghost]

This drunk person is giving the imperialists one part of the equation that they need (the excuse to attack).

And locking someone up for two years for something he said isn't? :rolleyes:

[Revulero]

I guess its like they say, when you're drunk the truth comes out.

[cb9's_unity]

I linked to a story from the Miami Herald, it's in Spanish, but it clearly points out more conditions than the Guardian story.

Namely, that he is not really hungry!

He was drunk and carrying on.

I know many people here think that they are revolutionaries, but I am beginning to question that. Where did you get the idea that people have freedom of speech anywhere? You can say certain things in certain places. But anywhere you go in the whole world, there are gonna be some things that you can't say. But in this case the man who said them was LYING, therby making it even more ridiculous.

If you go to Germany and start trying to talk crap on the street about Jewish people, you will be in jail too.

Cuba is and has been under economic and at some points military attack by the U.S. They believe that this drunk A-hole liar is giving cannon fodder for continued attacks by the U.S.

There are things you can't say in the U.S. too. Freedom of speech is patently untrue. If you don't believe me, wear a "Death to America" or "God is a fairy tale" t-shirt and we will see how much "freedom of speech" you have.

I am beginning to wonder if certain people here are socialists, or if they just like to call themselves that. Socialists choose the people over the government. This man was not actively subversive to the government, he only registered a complaint. The people run socialism and not the other way around. His opinion should be as important as Castro's as the sole reason for socialism is to serve the needs of the people. You are forgetting that in order to support your glorious revolution.

The man was not wearing a "Death to Cuba" shirt, not anything close to that. And yes I would be able to wear a "God is a fairy tale" shirt and get away with it. I may be alienated socially but the capitalist government would barely care at all. I wouldn't get a day in jail, much less two years. In a capitalist society I would be able to express my opinions on youtube, in cuba the man gets arrested. Socialism is suppose to be more advance, more progressive than capitalism. I see none of that in this example and in fact I see Cuba as being behind even the capitalist nations. Incidents like these are embarrassing to socialists everywhere and are inexcusable to anyone who believes in the most basic human rights.

If the revolution is more important than the people than no, I don't support revolution. The socialist puts the rights and needs of the people over any flags or slogans.

[The Feral Underclass]

To be honest I see no reason to trust the state propaganda of a bureaucratic dictatorship anymore than I would trust the propaganda of capitalist states.

[Revulero]

I don't know too much about this story, but the fact that getting drunk gets you 2 years of prison time is outrageous, anywhere.

[Durruti's Ghost]

What the drunk dude says was not true.

So fucking what?

You claim that his lies--and I'll admit that they are probably lies--could be used by the US to justify an invasion of Cuba. This may be true. However, the Cuban government arresting people for their speech--even if their speech is untrue--would be just as useful, if not more useful, to the US if it were planning such an invasion. Your position makes no sense.

[Wanted Man]

He sure looks hungry... Must be that "propaganda of the truth" thing.

[Steve_j]

So therefore, get drunk and talk crazy... anything goes. I'll pass on that kind of revolution.

So a government not accountable to its people but the people accountable to the government...... Wait, i already have that. Will pass on that revolution too.

[Bright Banana Beard]

So this guy value more than the Cuban people? Are you saying that socialist is more powerful the imperialist? So you rather see some bullshit freedom rather than everyone having a fair life. Great.

And yet we see it a bourgeois newspaper who has not sent the reporter to interview him.

Yet, we all like to pretend that socialist is perfect.

Fucking disgrace. Not that I am defending Cuba, but pointing out other who thinks that socialist is free from the domination of the imperialism.

And yet, I am fucking hungry here as my stomach is growling.

So a hungry man equates to bad evil Cuban government.

[KC]

This is ridiculous. The defenders of the Cuban government are saying that he deserved the prison sentence for being a tool of "imperialist propaganda," yet they completely ignore the fact that the government's action of imposing such a prison sentence is precisely what is being used for imperialist propaganda. By their logic, the Cuban government should be overthrown for being appendages of imperialism. :rolleyes:

Can we please ban anyone that defends this action as being pro-imperialists and not revolutionary leftists?



And yet, I am fucking hungry here as my stomach is growling.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA this has got to be one of the funniest things I've ever seen posted on here.

[RedSonRising]

This situation is obviously complex, considering the unique historically vulnerable condition of Cuba along with the known bureaucracy of Cuba.

In my opinion, this can be seen as necessary due to the whole "propaganda war" thing, the man's questionable truthfulness and nonconstructive behavior are indicators of such a justification, but at the end of the day, 2 years in prison for such belligerence is fucked up, plain and simple. It shouldn't happen.

However, this does not mean that we should just take the Cuban revolution and throw it in the trash every time something like this happens. One should take the time to examine the relationship between the citizen worker of Cuban and the State and the improvements brought about due to their anti-imperialist condition, and neither praise them for the simple fact alone that they call themselves socialist, nor equate them to North Korea and ignore the progress and revolutionary potential that exists due Castro's revolution.

[n0thing]

Obviously this is just a wily CIA informant doing a very good impression of a drunk, hungry, Cuban man facing a very long prison sentence.

So is hunger officially a punishable crime in Cuba now?

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

So therefore, get drunk and talk crazy... anything goes. I'll pass on that kind of revolution.

Getting drunk and talking normal defeats the purpose of getting drunk.


I think that it is obvious that this man drinking shows how failed a state Cuba really is.

You see, on this site, everytime a thread is made on drug or alcohol abuse, it is always brought up by skads of posters that once the revolution is here people will stop being exploited and grinded into a pulp everyday of the week, substance abuse will eradicate itself.

So either that theory is complete bullshit, or in Cuba there are significant problems that lead people to abuse these intoxicating chemicals.

I go with the latter, and I believe some of these problems may include breakfast, lunch, dinner, and the government locking up people who complain about such for years.


But really, 2 years is more than you'll get for most drug use in the US most of the time (granted no prior legal history). This guys getting several years for speaking. By that standard, is it really so wrong for a country to lock up people it just doesn't feel have the capacity to walk the streets and believe in the Dream?


However, this does not mean that we should just take the Cuban revolution and throw it in the trash every time something like this happens. One should take the time to examine the relationship between the citizen worker of Cuban and the State and the improvements brought about due to their anti-imperialist condition, and neither praise them for the simple fact alone that they call themselves socialist, nor equate them to North Korea and ignore the progress and revolutionary potential that exists due Castro's revolution.


Just another dictatorship, but they do have excellent social structure for what they have to work with. I'll give them that.

And cool posters. The whole Che thing is pretty iconic.

And no, they're not NK. But it's time to storm that bastille and get some heads a rollin'!


Needs to happen here too though, don't get me wrong.

[Outinleftfield]

You see, on this site, everytime a thread is made on drug or alcohol abuse, it is always brought up by skads of posters that once the revolution is here people will stop being exploited and grinded into a pulp everyday of the week, substance abuse will eradicate itself.

The revolution will end addiction not necessarily substance use any more than any other kind of recreational activity. People will still use substances from time to time for the same reason people play video games or watch tv, because it's fun.

Still I think you're right that Cuba is not a truly revolutionary society. I'll grant that in many ways Castro has improved the lives of his people.

All these people on here defending Cuba as trying to stop imperialist propaganda aren't realizing that Cuba is defeating the whole purpose of revolution to place the means of production in the hands of the working class.

When the party can suppress any dissent it wants the society and economy are not under the control of the working class they are run by a new ruling class.

If Cuba was really a worker's state it would respond to complaints of hunger by forming a program to eradicate hunger. If Cuba was actually able to do that rather than control speech to make it look like it did that that would be a propaganda victory not just for its people but the rest of the world. Even the US hasn't eradicated hunger, but it really wouldn't be that hard. Set up a program to keep track of food production and make sure there's enough for everyone.

Its harder but worth it to actually improve people's lives instead of shutting people up to make it look like people's lives are being improved.

As for drunks if everyone is being fed that shouldn't be too hard to prove and then the drunk just looks like an idiot.

[manic expression]

Well, well. Nothing like a little piece of anti-Cuban propaganda to bring out all the Castrophobes on RevLeft. Sure, it's unfortunate that the drunken rant got put into the spotlight, it's unfortunate that the consequences of that rant became so far-reaching, but that's water under the bridge. The Cuban people now have to deal with someone whose irresponsibility helped the cause of the gusano terrorists who menace the Cuban Revolution. Such a punishment is not uncalled for, and anyone who argues otherwise simply doesn't understand Cuban history.

The article clearly states that the video became a "rallying cry" for Miami exile groups. This man's actions gave aid and comfort to the enemies of socialism, and that is inexcusable, especially when the charge is not true. Cubans are not going hungry, that much is a fact. I regret how the man's words were used by the right-wing exiles, but they were slanderous and hurtful to the Cuban people and deserved punishment.

[KC]

The article clearly states that the video became a "rallying cry" for Miami exile groups. This man's actions gave aid and comfort to the enemies of socialism

And the actions of the Cuban government in imprisoning him for two years doesn't give further impetus to the anti-Castro crusade? :rolleyes:

You've got to be kidding me.

[manic expression]

And the actions of the Cuban government in imprisoning him for two years doesn't give further impetus to the anti-Castro crusade? :rolleyes:

You've got to be kidding me.

Thankfully, the revolutionaries of Cuba don't plan their actions based on what the capitalists might or might not think about them. This is about addressing slanderous irresponsibility that hurt the Cuban people, not about making nice with counterrevolutionaries. You're asking us to believe that the anti-Cuban propagandists that picked up this story would be more friendly to the revolution had the man not been sent to prison, which is laughably off-base.

Privileging the sensibilities of reactionaries over the interests of the working class has never been a characteristic of Marxism-Leninism or communism.

[GPDP]

Thankfully, the revolutionaries of Cuba don't plan their actions based on what the capitalists might or might not think about them. This is about addressing slanderous irresponsibility that hurt the Cuban people, not about making nice with counterrevolutionaries. You're asking us to believe that the anti-Cuban propagandists that picked up this story would be more friendly to the revolution had the man not been sent to prison, which is laughably off-base.

Privileging the sensibilities of reactionaries over the interests of the working class has never been a characteristic of Marxism-Leninism or communism.

I think what many people have an issue with is the particular way with which this "irresponsibility" was addressed. Could there not have been another way to handle this? Must a so-called socialist government resort to censure, and a 2-year censure at that, to handle the situation? How exactly does the particular way the Cuban government went about this issue help matters or control whatever damage was done?

[manic expression]

I think what many people have an issue with is the particular way with which this "irresponsibility" was addressed. Could there not have been another way to handle this? Must a so-called socialist government resort to censure, and a 2-year censure at that, to handle the situation? How exactly does the particular way the Cuban government went about this issue help matters or control whatever damage was done?

For the third time, this is not about damage control or helping Cuba's image with right-wing exiles, it's about addressing an irresponsible, hurtful and slanderous act that gave aid and comfort to the enemies of the revolution. This helps matters by punishing an inexcusable and reckless act.

As to your questions, there were definitely other ways to deal with the situation. However, this is the course of action taken by the Cuban people, and while it may seem like an overreaction to us on RevLeft, that perception is not so readily accepted by a people who have been besieged and attacked for over 50 years. Taking into account the very serious nature of counterrevolutionary propaganda against Cuba, I'm not sure why people are so shocked at the verdict and sentence.

[willdw79]

For the third time, this is not about damage control or helping Cuba's image with right-wing exiles, it's about addressing an irresponsible, hurtful and slanderous act that gave aid and comfort to the enemies of the revolution. This helps matters by punishing an inexcusable and reckless act.

As to your questions, there were definitely other ways to deal with the situation. However, this is the course of action taken by the Cuban people, and while it may seem like an overreaction to us on RevLeft, that perception is not so readily accepted by a people who have been besieged and attacked for over 50 years. Taking into account the very serious nature of counterrevolutionary propaganda against Cuba, I'm not sure why people are so shocked at the verdict and sentence.
My sentiments exactly!

[KC]

Thankfully, the revolutionaries of Cuba don't plan their actions based on what the capitalists might or might not think about them.

Except that is exactly what they were doing when they sentenced this man to two years in prison...

See, in the very next sentence you contradict yourself:


This is about addressing slanderous irresponsibility that hurt the Cuban peopleIt's very telling when the uncritical supporters of the Cuban administration end up supporting such an action as this, which leads them to openly contradict their revolutionary rhetoric. You've evidenced my point beautifully, Manic. Thank you.


You're asking us to believe that the anti-Cuban propagandists that picked up this story would be more friendly to the revolution had the man not been sent to prison, which is laughably off-base.I don't think I've ever said that. This story just would not have picked up nearly as much publicity if he was not imprisoned.


However, this is the course of action taken by the Cuban people

I think you're confusing the Cuban government for the Cuban people, which is not surprising considering that you think Cuba is a classless paradise.

[Davie zepeda]

Sooo you want cuba's government to revert back to capitalist ? And then what well have a new third world to add to the list of shit holes. Wtf are you saying guys so a guy get's drunk and talks shit that happens here all the time and many people are jailed, so wtf one case of a drunk guy talking shit, yeah it's fucked up but what would you do? Let him be for cause that most likely is bull shit.

[Davie zepeda]

http://www.fightauthority.com/fist-fight.php?fv=bc4_1227530129

[Abc]

have any of the people claiming that cuba is a workers paradise ever been to cuba? or personally met someone from cuba? because if not then stop posting about how great cuba is, and how theres no hunger,and how every cuban wipes there ass with silk toilet paper because its all bullshit and you dont have a fucking clue what your talking about

[robbo203]

It's quite amazing that telling people you're hungry can be considered "public dangerousness"...Whatever the fuck that means!



And there are still some pretty gullible people on this forum who think that Cuba is something other than a vicious, dirty little state capitalist dictatorship run by and in he interests of Castro and his cronies

[h0m0revolutionary]

Sooo you want cuba's government to revert back to capitalist ?

Are you serious?

What is the Cuban generation of finance capital if not capitalist?!

[manic expression]

Except that is exactly what they were doing when they sentenced this man to two years in prison...

Wrong. Their actions were a response to a Cuban citizen's attack on the revolution and his aid of anti-Cuban propaganda. Here, Cuba's actions were not measured on what the exiles think, they were measured on how the man damaged the revolution while helping the cause of reaction. It would have been more PR-friendly to do nothing (something you admit below), but the Cuban people don't tolerate such slander, and for this they are condemned by right-wingers, anarchists, liberals and so on and so forth.

In short, this is about someone spreading lies about the revolution, lies which hurt the cause of the Cuban people. If you're OK with that, I think you should be.

This is all clearly stated in my post; you're stretching to find contradictions when this is a very straightforward case.


It's very telling when the uncritical supporters of the Cuban administration end up supporting such an action as this, which leads them to openly contradict their revolutionary rhetoric. You've evidenced my point beautifully, Manic. Thank you.

And it's very telling that the only people thanking your posts are anarchists. Think about that for a second.

And no, there's no contradiction here. A man irresponsibly slandered the revolution and got punished for it. That's what the bleeding heart Castrophobes can't understand.


I don't think I've ever said that. This story just would not have picked up nearly as much publicity if he was not imprisoned.

Exactly. The revolutionaries of Cuba determine what is in the interests of the working class, not what counterrevolutionaries think. A policy of tolerating counterrevolutionary lies is not in the interests of the working class, and aids the enemies of the revolution (note, this is not the same as trying to make nice with said enemies, in fact it's the opposite). You'd do well to comprehend that.


I think you're confusing the Cuban government for the Cuban people, which is not surprising considering that you think Cuba is a classless paradise.

Cuba is not a classless society, but it is directly and decisively controlled by the Cuban working class. The Cuban government represents the Cuban workers because that's who drives it, determines its direction and created it in the first place.

Revolutionaries get this. People who haven't the ability to defend socialism from counterrevolutionary propaganda don't.

[Abc]

Cuba is not a classless society, but it is directly and decisively controlled by the Cuban working class. The Cuban government represents the Cuban workers because that's who drives it, determines its direction and created it in the first place.

Revolutionaries get this. People who haven't the ability to defend socialism from counterrevolutionary propaganda don't.
if the Cuban working class is in power then why does the goverment ban all internet access......seems kind of stupid to ban stuff from the people who control you oh and btw
THE CUBAN REVOLUTION ENDED OVER 50 YEARS AGO!!!!! stop talking like its still going on!

[Revy]

It looks like the Cuban state fueled all this by giving him a 2 year sentence. Saying you're hungry while you're drunk, that would seem to lose itself in obscure gusano blogs, or make a temporary YouTube hit. But locking a man up for such a long time for saying he's too hungry, well, that fuels a sensation like this "Jama y Libertad" campaign, and makes this man a political prisoner.

How ironic that according to the logic of some here it should be the person who ordered this sentence sentenced to 2 years as well, if the crime is "defaming the Revolution".

[manic expression]

if the Cuban working class is in power then why does the goverment ban all internet access......seems kind of stupid to ban stuff from the people who control you oh and btw
THE CUBAN REVOLUTION ENDED OVER 50 YEARS AGO!!!!! stop talking like its still going on!

This is an off-topic and idiotic point made by someone who has no relevance to the discussion. However, the fact is that the government doesn't ban all internet access.

http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/1756

http://www.ioltechnology.co.za/article_page.php?iSectionId=2884&iArticleId=5159502

Obviously, Billy Mays has been busy at work memorizing all the usual right-wing Miami talking points.

The revolution was victorious in its struggle against the Cuban bourgeoisie, but it continues to further its accomplishments today. So long as the Cuban people are free from the chains of capitalism, the revolution is alive. Really, you don't know anything about revolution.

[Leo]

The article clearly states that the video became a "rallying cry" for Miami exile groups. This man's actions gave aid and comfort to the enemies of socialismYeah, kill the counter-revolutionary who dared to say he was hungry! How dare he felt hungry in the first place! His hunger is aiding the counter-revolution!

Some "socialism"...

[manic expression]

Yeah, kill the counter-revolutionary who dared to say he was hungry!

Some "socialism"...

Have anything concrete on hunger in Cuba? Anything at all? I thought so. Much easier to join the anti-Cuban chorus than provide something substantive.

[Leo]

Someone saying he is hungry and being thrown in a jail tells a lot of concrete things about hunger in Cuba.

Of course, a little bit of research could give you more concrete things: http://news.newamericamedia.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=47362999f43d3c5caf805 e8ea8fdc1dd

[manic expression]

Someone saying he is hungry and being thrown in a jail tells a lot of concrete things about hunger in Cuba.

Yes, the rantings of a a drunk guy is more valuable than statistical studies that consistently show that Cubans are not hungry. Good one. I could find drunk kids at the nearest private college campus who say they're hungry, too.


Of course, a little bit of research could give you more concrete things: http://news.newamericamedia.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=47362999f43d3c5caf805 e8ea8fdc1dd

Wait, hurricanes can hurt agricultural output? No way.

According to the article you posted, the Cuban government acquired food through airlifts from Mexico, Venezuela and Russia because they were averting hunger in their country after a devastating natural disaster (which was far our of the Cuban government's control). The article details the prospect of a crisis, but it also details the revolutionary government's quick and timely response. It's on you to show us that Cubans are actually hungry, not an article from a year ago saying that there were prospects of possible food shortages in the then-near-future.

By the way,

http://www.pslweb.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=12841&news_iv_ctrl=1261

[el_chavista]

Guest column: Let's feed, engage the Cuban people

ALLEN F. JOHNSON, a native of Long Grove, was chief agricultural negotiator of the United States from 2001 to 2005. Contact: [email protected] • August 16, 2009


"Thirty years later, our Cuba strategy is having the same effect while limiting our access to a growing market for our farmers and ranchers, violating a core principle to never use food as a weapon in our foreign policy. This is hurting America's image in Cuba and Latin America, and feeding the Cuban government's anti-U.S. propaganda machine while underfeeding Cuba's people."
http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20090816/OPINION01/908160316/1035/OPINION/Guest-column--Let-s-feed--engage-the-Cuban-people

[brigadista]

more recent info

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00m9xjc cuba is featured in 2 and 3- regarding how Cuba is coping with provision of food in the oil crisis which could be a lesson to other countries... and its the bbc...not a pro cuba site etc ...

[Leo]

Wait, hurricanes can hurt agricultural output? No way.

Hurricanes, famines and so forth of course happen everywhere. You wanted me to show you whether there is hunger in Cuba, I did. Of course everyone knows there is poverty in Cuba. The Cuban government trying to hide the effects of hurricanes and famines as well as the conditions Cubans live, while independent sources from Cuba are saying they are starving, hungry etc. does show quite a lot.

Now, if you want statistics though, I suggest you to dig up this website which has albeit limited statistics released from the Cuban government in regards to these questions: http://hdrstats.undp.org/en/indicators/

I'll give you a head-start saying that, Cuba's Human Poverty Index 1 results are considerably high among developing countries, ranking sixth only behind Barbados, Uruguay, Chile, Argentina and Costa Rica:

http://hdrstats.undp.org/countries/country_fact_sheets/cty_fs_CUB.html
http://hdrstats.undp.org/en/indicators/17.html

You do of course have to claim that there is no poverty and hunger in those countries either if you are going to claim that with Cuba. Good luck with that.


Yes, the rantings of a a drunk guy is more valuable than statistical studies that consistently show that Cubans are not hungry. Good one. I could find drunk kids at the nearest private college campus who say they're hungry, too.

Why am I not so surprised in you being so quick to slander a poor and hungry fella and take the side of the police and the state arresting and imprisoning him for saying that?

[KC]

Sooo you want cuba's government to revert back to capitalist ?

Hey, I'm not the one backing the pro-imperialist action of throwing this man in prison. :laugh:



And there are still some pretty gullible people on this forum who think that Cuba is something other than a vicious, dirty little state capitalist dictatorship run by and in he interests of Castro and his cronies

It is something other than that, but being a liberal and not a revolutionary you don't understand that.


Wrong. Their actions were a response to a Cuban citizen's attack on the revolution and his aid of anti-Cuban propaganda.

What attacks on the Cuban revolution, exactly? And the Cuban government's action of imprisoning him was probably much more helpful to anti-Cuban propaganda than some drunk talking to a camera about hunger.


It would have been more PR-friendly to do nothing (something you admit below), but the Cuban people don't tolerate such slanderAnd they don't tolerate such slander because....they care what "pro-imperialists" think.



This is all clearly stated in my post; you're stretching to find contradictions when this is a very straightforward case.I don't have to stretch anything you say, as you are the one obviously contradicting yourself in your own posts. It is self-evident by anyone that reads your posts.

"Cubans aren't concerned with the pro-imperialist propaganda."
"Cubans did this because of the lies and the pro-imperialist propaganda that came out of it."

That's your two positions in a nutshell.


And it's very telling that the only people thanking your posts are anarchists. Think about that for a second.No it's not. It's not telling at all. It might be telling to people like you who are concerned with what others think, but that's pretty much PSL policy, isn't it (example: Iran)?


Exactly.Ok, so in one post you attack me for something I didn't say, then I say that I didn't say it, and now you agree with me.

Do you not see how you are contradicting yourself even further? :confused:


Cuba is not a classless society, but it is directly and decisively controlled by the Cuban working class. The Cuban government represents the Cuban workers because that's who drives it, determines its direction and created it in the first place.

I think this pretty much sums up how hopelessly delusional you are.


if the Cuban working class is in power then why does the goverment ban all internet access......seems kind of stupid to ban stuff from the people who control you oh and btw
THE CUBAN REVOLUTION ENDED OVER 50 YEARS AGO!!!!! stop talking like its still going on!

They didn't ban all internet access, they have simply rationed it due to the limited access they have had. Although with the invention of wireless networking technology it shouldn't really be a problem anymore. It would probably be more productive to discuss the personal computer ban, even though it just ended.


Have anything concrete on hunger in Cuba?

Do you? So far you have been completely unconcerned about it, as evidenced by your complete focus on your 'propaganda war' as opposed to the struggles of the Cuban people to feed themselves.

[manic expression]

Hurricanes, famines and so forth of course happen everywhere. You wanted me to show you whether there is hunger in Cuba, I did.

No, you didn't, you showed that Cuba was facing difficulties because of a natural disaster that happened a year ago.

The difference is that Cuba responded to the potential crisis swiftly and with the interests of the workers in mind first and foremost. Capitalist countries do the exact opposite, and Hurricane Katrina is a shining example of this.


Of course everyone knows there is poverty in Cuba. The Cuban government trying to hide the effects of hurricanes and famines as well as the conditions Cubans live, while independent sources from Cuba are saying they are starving, hungry etc. does show quite a lot.

What independent sources? That story was on the aftermath of a hurricane, that the Cuban government was in the process of ameliorating.


I'll give you a head-start saying that, Cuba's Human Poverty Index 1 results are considerably high among developing countries, ranking sixth only behind Barbados, Uruguay, Chile, Argentina and Costa Rica:

http://hdrstats.undp.org/countries/country_fact_sheets/cty_fs_CUB.html
http://hdrstats.undp.org/en/indicators/17.html

You do of course have to claim that there is no poverty and hunger in those countries either if you are going to claim that with Cuba. Good luck with that.

Again, you're ignoring the specifics involved. Argentina and the like are far less equitable and far more stratified than Cuba, with rich, poor, homeless and so on and so forth. Cuba has essentially eradicated such ills of capitalist society, even with the tremendous economic burdens that came with the fall of the Soviet Union. The wealth of an entire country and hunger are not directly corresponding factors when you're comparing bourgeois societies to a proletarian one.


Why am I not so surprised in you being so quick to slander a poor and hungry fella and take the side of the police and the state arresting and imprisoning him for saying that?

Because anti-Cuban slander isn't something I take kindly to; this I share with the people of Cuba.

[manic expression]

What attacks on the Cuban revolution, exactly?

Saying Cubans are going hungry when they are not.


And the Cuban government's action of imprisoning him was probably much more helpful to anti-Cuban propaganda than some drunk talking to a camera about hunger.

See previous post: Cuba was responding to the man's actions, not trying to figure out what course of action would make gusanos less hateful toward them.


And they don't tolerate such slander because....they care what "pro-imperialists" think.

Wrong. It's because the ideological battle between socialism and capitalism, which includes establishing the fact that socialist societies are better for the workers than capitalist ones, is essential to our struggle. Propaganda such as this hurts the international socialist movement, to say nothing of the aid it gives anti-Cuban terrorists.


"Cubans aren't concerned with the pro-imperialist propaganda."
"Cubans did this because of the lies and the pro-imperialist propaganda that came out of it."

Either you're intentionally misrepresenting my posts or you simply aren't getting it. I'll assume the latter because it makes more sense at this point.

The Cuban government does not make decisions on its own policies based on what capitalists think of them. They DO make decisions based on the principle that counterrevolutionary slander should not be tolerated.

Let me know if you're having trouble, maybe I can draw you a picture.


No it's not. It's not telling at all. It might be telling to people like you who are concerned with what others think, but that's pretty much PSL policy, isn't it (example: Iran)?

Oh, yes, it is telling. It's quite fitting that you would find yourself in the anarchist camp on this issue. Take a look around at who's agreeing with you and you might learn something. Marxist-Leninists defend working-class states from anarchist attacks. What, precisely, are you doing? Think about that.

And the PSL's position on Iran is a good example of the opposite: using a scientific analysis instead of media-frenzied, feel-good sloganeering.


Ok, so in one post you attack me for something I didn't say, then I say that I didn't say it, and now you agree with me.

I was taking a point you made and using it to illustrate the larger situation. Not doing anything may have been better from a PR standpoint, but the revolutionary government is more concerned with the well-being of the working class than with what reactionaries think of them. Read it again.


I think this pretty much sums up how hopelessly delusional you are.

So you're an opponent of the Cuban Revolution? Noted.


Do you? So far you have been completely unconcerned about it, as evidenced by your complete focus on your 'propaganda war' as opposed to the struggles of the Cuban people to feed themselves.

See my link on Cuban agricultural improvement. Thanks.

[Madvillainy]

Cuba is a socialist paradise, we can't have some drunk upsetting the status quo.

[The Red Next Door]

This just plain ridculous, it would even be more outrageous if they had shot him. That should tell them something and that is get them some more damn food on the island and listen to the people instead of shutting them up, by the way how would you like if some drunk person who was telling the truth about how that idiot psuedo-dictador of ours ran things here and people called it a drunken rant. may remind you the country is under embargo and plus every country have problem especially cuba.

[Spark]

The assertion that Cubans are hungry is a monstrous calumny for which there must be consequences, even if the bourgeois liberal media's account of this story is to be accepted as truthful. According to the FAO, the average food intake for Cubans is about 3300 calories per day. You cannot slander the people and their new, socialist way of life without being held accountable for such malice. It seems like this man was influenced by enemies of the people and engaged in this provocative adventure in an effort to blacken Cuba's revolutionary system.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Let's hold on here a second.

The point of debate isn't whether or not Cubans are hungry.

The point is that a guy got locked up for years for saying he was and that people there are hungry. As in, he's being locked away for speaking.

[The Author]

Watching the YouTube video, the guy sounds like a jackass. It isn't hard to comprehend why a guy like that would end up in prison.

Also, he looked pretty fit for someone who claimed to be hungry.

I love how a whole shitstorm was started over some crappy article from the Guardian. Great job, guys, grasping at them straws. You're merely doing the dirty work of the bourgeoisie and the imperialists, saying things in their favor.

[#FF0000]

Watching the YouTube video, the guy sounds like a jackass. It isn't hard to comprehend why a guy like that would end up in prison.

Also, he looked pretty fit for someone who claimed to be hungry.

I love how a whole shitstorm was started over some crappy article from the Guardian. Great job, guys, grasping at them straws. You're merely doing the dirty work of the bourgeoisie and the imperialists, saying things in their favor.

A. Dude. Got. Two. Years. Of. Jailtime. For. A. Drunken. Rant.

[Plagueround]

For those that didn't catch this the the first time:

A. Dude. Got. Two. Years. Of. Jailtime. For. A. Drunken. Rant.

Emphasis mine.

[SocialismOrBarbarism]

Anybody have a translation of all that he said?

[el_chavista]

Anybody have a translation of all that he said?
-Food, food, food
-What is needed is food
- I do not tell lies, that happens, we are hungry in Cuba
[and he murmured "soya mince" or something, nothing more]

[Dimentio]

Watching the YouTube video, the guy sounds like a jackass. It isn't hard to comprehend why a guy like that would end up in prison.

Also, he looked pretty fit for someone who claimed to be hungry.

I love how a whole shitstorm was started over some crappy article from the Guardian. Great job, guys, grasping at them straws. You're merely doing the dirty work of the bourgeoisie and the imperialists, saying things in their favor.

Nevertheless, he ended up in prison for two fucking years. That is disgusting and shows exactly how much like a military dictatorship the government of Cuba is working. Then he could be a jackass, a drunkard or whatever. That doesn't excuse the outlandish sentence.

[manic expression]

Nevertheless, he ended up in prison for two fucking years. That is disgusting and shows exactly how much like a military dictatorship the government of Cuba is working. Then he could be a jackass, a drunkard or whatever. That doesn't excuse the outlandish sentence.

A bourgeois report on Cuba's "disgusting" prisons:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/3667645.stm

Anyway, the sentence isn't unreasonable when you look at the threats against the Cuban Revolution.

[The Author]

A. Dude. Got. Two. Years. Of. Jailtime. For. A. Drunken. Rant.

Which. Was. Recorded. On. Video. And. Posted. On. YouTube. And. Was. Viewed. More. Than. 450,000. Times. In. April. And. Became. The. Rallying. Cry. For. Exile. Groups. In. Florida. Where. Some. Hailed. The. Dude. As. One. Of. The. Few. Cubans. "Who. Dare. Speak. Frankly. About. The. Difficulties. Of. Life. On. The. Island." Not. Too. Hard. To. Figure. Out. That. Such. A. Reaction. By. The. Exiles. And. The. Hype. By. The. Media. In. Duping. The. Public. Outside. Of. Cuba. Into. Thinking. The. Country. Is. Experiencing. Famine. And. Hunger. Would. Result. In. Action. Like. This.

[The Author]

I mean, this is as stupid as those remarks by Fareed Zakaria on CNN who stated that the Cubans are running short on toilet paper, stating that at least in capitalism, in spite of its flaws, people have toilet paper. The fucking bourgeois media pulls shit like this all the time. If there is a crack in a sidewalk in Cuba, or a streetlight is broken in North Korea, all of a sudden it becomes a shining example of the failure of socialism and the tyranny of the regime in not allowing freedom and real growth. And there are people who fall for this garbage all the time, never bothering to read between the lines. There is a shortage of toilet paper because of the embargo, and because everybody gets access to toilet paper faster than it can be resupplied in stores because of the level of consumption. In capitalist countries, there's a surplus of toilet paper because poor people often cannot afford the paper to wipe their own asses. That's something Zakaria will never tell viewers on CNN because his job is to disinform people and lead them towards forming specific biased opinions in favor of imperialism and the bourgeoisie.

The guy makes a fucking rant in front of a documentary film crew whose mission is to present an edited form of media to the public back home in countries where Cuba is only presented on a one-sided "negative" basis. When people are given only one side of the picture, and they see a screaming moron ranting about supposed hunger, they're going to think Cuba is experiencing famine without any knowledge otherwise, and naturally they would support the imperialist actions of their countries in acting "for humanitarian reasons," while really being conned into doing the dirty work of the bourgeoisie in the name of "democracy" and "human rights." That's what must be taken into consideration here. The guy is serving as cannon fodder for the imperialist propaganda machine, and that's why he deserves his prison time: because he made the work of the imperialists easier, and he made life for the 11 million citizens on the island harder because now foreign countries will continue their embargoes and harassment of the nation through diplomatic measures and "punishments."

[Random Precision]

By the way,

http://www.pslweb.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=12841&news_iv_ctrl=1261

The article's subtitle is "Program emphasizes use of oxen, redistributes land". It says, "Currently, there are over 265,000 oxen being used in agricultural production across the country". It quotes a US observer saying that, "You go out to the farms and there’s no equipment. It’s like the country has regressed back to the 1500s. They use oxen in the field..."

Oxen? Are we saying that this is a step forward?

[The Author]

That actually has more to do with getting rid of dependency on petroleum and moving more to organic farming- something which the more "advanced" agricultural centers avoid by using chemical fertilizers, pesticides, and are oil-dependent, causing destruction in crop quality and a decline in food nutrition for consumers.

The explanation behind the oxen farming can be seen here in this thread:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/cuba-model-sustainable-t116004/index.html

[JimmyJazz]

Personally I think he should be shot.


have any of the people claiming that cuba is a workers paradise ever been to cuba?

Probably very few of them. And the fat, spoiled American "radicals" who blithely throw around terms like "third world shitholes" to describe every country south of the equator that isn't Cuba or Vietnam probably also haven't been to these countries. And they would probably get their asses beat in the street by the locals if they were to go to, say, Jamaica or Haiti, and loudly proclaim, "What a third world shithole this is!"

[Dimentio]

A bourgeois report on Cuba's "disgusting" prisons:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/3667645.stm

Anyway, the sentence isn't unreasonable when you look at the threats against the Cuban Revolution.

Yes. A drunkard is so much of a security threat. I think the reaction is more a threat against the "revolution" (which began in january 1959),

[RotStern]

let him Freeee :D he was drunk and hungry and decided to go on a drunken rant about his hunger, Happens to the best of us.

[Outinleftfield]

Sooo you want cuba's government to revert back to capitalist ? And then what well have a new third world to add to the list of shit holes. Wtf are you saying guys so a guy get's drunk and talks shit that happens here all the time and many people are jailed, so wtf one case of a drunk guy talking shit, yeah it's fucked up but what would you do? Let him be for cause that most likely is bull shit.

Yes people here get jailed for about a day or at most 3 months for public drunkenness or disturbing the peace.

They don't get 2 years.

By giving him that sentence they just added fuel to the fire. The sentence itself is useful anti-Castro propaganda. If the Miami exiles were upset at a man saying he's hungry imagine how more upset they are now that he's been given 2 years in prison.

Wouldn't it have been more effective if the Cuban government did a report about how well it is feeding everyone (assuming that's the case)?

And what if people really were going hungry? Then the Cuban government would have the same power it has now to throw people in jail for saying they're hungry. This power means that the Cuban government is free not to be revolutionary if it doesn't want to. This power is a danger to the revolution and hence is counterrevolutionary itself.

Does anyone here really think that somehow a man's statement that he's hungry is going to cause Cuba to become capitalist? It sounds like the same kind of paranoia in the 50s in America where they were arresting people for being communists.

[Revy]

Some here would rather support the Cuban state uncritically than admit it is doing anything wrong. The Cuban 'Revolution' has my critical support. But there needs to be genuine democracy. All this talk about "Cuban democracy" yet you can get locked up for 2 years for this. Um, that's not what should happen in what is being said is "the most democratic nation in the world".

[manic expression]

Oxen? Are we saying that this is a step forward?

The use of oxen HAS improved agricultural output, as the article states, and as MarxistLeninist pointed out, it is in no small part because it's a natural, self-sufficient production process. In a country that must contend with an illegal siege by the most powerful country in the world, these are important concerns.

[Durruti's Ghost]

Yes people here get jailed for about a day or at most 3 months for public drunkenness or disturbing the peace.

Which is in itself ridiculous. Had the Cuban government simply let the man go free, they could have used that to counteract anti-Castro propaganda-- "Look, in capitalist countries, people can be thrown in jail for as much as three months for public drunkenness; here, people aren't jailed at all!"

But, as we all know, they didn't--a sign that maybe Cuba isn't as democratic as some people would like to think...

[#FF0000]

Which. Was. Recorded. On. Video. And. Posted. On. YouTube. And. Was. Viewed. More. Than. 450,000. Times. In. April. And. Became. The. Rallying. Cry. For. Exile. Groups. In. Florida. Where. Some. Hailed. The. Dude. As. One. Of. The. Few. Cubans. "Who. Dare. Speak. Frankly. About. The. Difficulties. Of. Life. On. The. Island." Not. Too. Hard. To. Figure. Out. That. Such. A. Reaction. By. The. Exiles. And. The. Hype. By. The. Media. In. Duping. The. Public. Outside. Of. Cuba. Into. Thinking. The. Country. Is. Experiencing. Famine. And. Hunger. Would. Result. In. Action. Like. This.

For 500, jailing someone for saying dumb shit while drunk discredits whom?

A) the drunk guy
B) The Government

Take a moment to think on this one.

[manic expression]

Which is in itself ridiculous. Had the Cuban government simply let the man go free, they could have used that to counteract anti-Castro propaganda-- "Look, in capitalist countries, people can be thrown in jail for as much as three months for public drunkenness; here, people aren't jailed at all!"

But, as we all know, they didn't--a sign that maybe Cuba isn't as democratic as some people would like to think...

So if the Cuban government decided to let this slide, essentially sending a message to the world that it accepts the most absurd slander, it would be democratic in your eyes? Does that make any sense?

And you're forgetting that if they let the man go scott-free, a precedent would be set: slandering the revolution and the Cuban people is completely OK.


For 500, jailing someone for saying dumb shit while drunk discredits whom?

It's not that simple, you should know that.

[Durruti's Ghost]

So if the Cuban government decided to let this slide, essentially sending a message to the world that it accepts the most absurd slander, it would be democratic in your eyes? Does that make any sense?

Umm...yes?

The common objection to the Cuban government is that it is undemocratic. "Sending a message to the world that it accepts the most absurd slander" would counteract this objection wonderfully and cause some workers in foreign countries to question the bourgeois lie that socialism is inherently undemocratic, thus aiding the cause of revolution in these foreign countries and, in the long run, aiding the cause of the Cuban Revolution as well.

[#FF0000]

It's not that simple, you should know that.

I think it is that simple. Jailing a guy for saying he's hungry sends a much more powerful message than the guy saying he's hungry does.

[manic expression]

I think it is that simple. Jailing a guy for saying he's hungry sends a much more powerful message than the guy saying he's hungry does.

It does send a powerful message, and that message is that the Cuban people will not tolerate such lies and slander.

And no, if you read the thread, you'd know it wasn't that simple, it has to do with anti-Cuban propaganda, it has to do with 50 years of threats against the revolution, it has to do with the truth. Trying to paint this as some guy who's going to jail because he drank too much is incorrect and unhelpful.


The common objection to the Cuban government is that it is undemocratic. "Sending a message to the world that it accepts the most absurd slander" would counteract this objection wonderfully and cause some workers in foreign countries to question the bourgeois lie that socialism is inherently undemocratic, thus aiding the cause of revolution in these foreign countries and, in the long run, aiding the cause of the Cuban Revolution as well.

:rolleyes:

That's really all anyone can say to such nonsense. If you actually think that the imperialists REALLY care if Cuba is democratic or not, you obviously haven't given the subject enough thought. Try your best to do so.

[Durruti's Ghost]

:rolleyes:

That's really all anyone can say to such nonsense. If you actually think that the imperialists REALLY care if Cuba is democratic or not, you obviously haven't given the subject enough thought. Try your best to do so.

Try your best to actually read what I wrote. The imperialists don't care if Cuba is democratic or not, but the workers in the imperialist countries do.

With all due respect, I think it is you who have not given the subject enough thought.

[#FF0000]

It does send a powerful message, and that message is that the Cuban people will not tolerate such lies and slander.


No it doesn't because people in the U.S. generally don't see "The Cuban Government" and "The Cuban People" as one and the same. The actual message that is sent is "Cuba jails people for saying they are hungry".


And no, if you read the thread, you'd know it wasn't that simple, it has to do with anti-Cuban propaganda, it has to do with 50 years of threats against the revolution, it has to do with the truth. Trying to paint this as some guy who's going to jail because he drank too much is incorrect and unhelpful.


Jailing the guy did a lot more for anti-Cuban propaganda than the man himself did. That is my point and that's the point so many people in this thread are trying to make.

[manic expression]

Try your best to actually read what I wrote. The imperialists don't care if Cuba is democratic or not, but the workers in the imperialist countries do.

The workers in the imperialist countries are, whether we like it or not, affected by imperialist propaganda. Cuba's attempts to deny imperialism's propagandists of these slanderous and untruthful opportunities defends the revolution, the revolutionary movements in imperialist countries who defend the Cuban Revolution and the truth of the matter. The more this garbage happens, the harder it is to propagate revolutionary socialism; punishment for counterrevolutionary lies is surely appropriate.

You, on the other hand, want the Cuban people to not only tolerate such lies, but reward them. "Get drunk and slander the revolution! You'll be a star on the internet!" That's the message you want to send, but that is simply unacceptable for the people of Cuba.

[KC]

Loveschach, Manic Expression thinks that Cuba is a classless society, so there is no arguing with him.

[manic expression]

No it doesn't because people in the U.S. generally don't see "The Cuban Government" and "The Cuban People" as one and the same. The actual message that is sent is "Cuba jails people for saying they are hungry".

And it is the responsibility of communists to expose the truth: the people of Cuba are addressing anti-Cuban lies and slander.

More importantly, punishing a counterrevolutionary liar is not about PR. I've said this about 20 times, and I guess I have to say it another 20. This is not a PR move. This is about punishing someone who's spreading misinformation and hurting the cause of the Cuban Revolution.


Jailing the guy did a lot more for anti-Cuban propaganda than the man himself did. That is my point and that's the point so many people in this thread are trying to make.

That's tangential, the act was already done and the government of Cuba had to respond to it, or, in the absence of a response, indirectly endorse such bile. They chose the better option.

And if this kind of fabrication isn't promptly dealt with when it happens, it will only happen more. Like I said, if this guy isn't punished it will encourage that kind of behavior.

[Durruti's Ghost]

The workers in the imperialist countries are, whether we like it or not, affected by imperialist propaganda. Cuba's attempts to deny imperialism's propagandists of these slanderous and untruthful opportunities defends the revolution, the revolutionary movements in imperialist countries who defend the Cuban Revolution and the truth of the matter. The more this garbage happens, the harder it is to propagate revolutionary socialism; punishment for counterrevolutionary lies is surely appropriate.

Your argument assumes that punishment is an effective deterrent for certain behaviors, which I would contest is not the case in the long run. That point aside, though, the punishment of these lies in itself harms revolutionary socialism, as roughly half the people in this thread have been saying for quite some time now. So, the question becomes, does the benefit to revolutionary socialism given by punishment of counterrevolutionary propaganda outweigh the creation of new counterrevolutionary propaganda that results from said punishment? You have not proved that it does, and since you are the one arguing that authority should be used in this case, the burden of proof rests on you.

[manic expression]

Your argument assumes that punishment is an effective deterrent for certain behaviors, which I would contest is not the case in the long run.

Punishment is an appropriate response, yes. Will it make others think twice about giving ammunition to imperialist propagandists? I think so, but that's secondary.


That point aside, though, the punishment of these lies in itself harms revolutionary socialism, as roughly half the people in this thread have been saying for quite some time now.

I doubt the Castrophobes on this thread defend the Cuban Revolution, so it's only natural that they'd jump on the anti-Cuban bandwagon here, as well. Further, you can talk about how it hurts revolutionary socialism in the abstract all you'd like, the fact is that this act is a direct defense of the truth of the revolution, and it does aid the work of communists worldwide. See my previous posts for this.


So, the question becomes, does the benefit to revolutionary socialism given by punishment of counterrevolutionary propaganda outweigh the creation of new counterrevolutionary propaganda that results from said punishment?

That's not the question. The question is whether or not counterrevolutionary liars should be confronted for their lies. You think they should be rewarded with Miami celebrity status. Revolutionaries think they should face the consequences for their slanderous fabrications.


You have not proved that it does, and since you are the one arguing that authority should be used in this case, the burden of proof rests on you.

See previous answer.

[manic expression]

Loveschach, Manic Expression thinks that Cuba is a classless society, so there is no arguing with him.

Except I expressly said that I didn't think that. Oh, well, maybe you'll get some more anarchist rep for that little piece of misrepresentation.

[KC]

Except I expressly said that I didn't think that. Oh, well, maybe you'll get some more anarchist rep for that little piece of misrepresentation.

So you think there are classes in Cuba? Yet the government represents the "Cuban people"? If there are classes in Cuba, then how does the government represent all of these classes (i.e. "the Cuban people")?

[manic expression]

So you think there are classes in Cuba? Yet the government represents the "Cuban people"? If there are classes in Cuba, then how does the government represent all of these classes (i.e. "the Cuban people")?

The people of Cuba are made up of Cuba's workers and farmers. They are the ruling classes of Cuba. As for the Cuban bourgeoisie, its members are almost universally abroad, thankfully enough, but as evidenced by Oswaldo Paya, the Ladies in White and other rightist individuals and groups, they do have their sympathizers in Cuba. Just because a bourgeois is expropriated and relocated 90 miles north does not mean he poses no threat to the Cuban working classes.

[KC]

The people of Cuba are made up of Cuba's workers and farmers. They are the ruling classes of Cuba. As for the Cuban bourgeoisie, its members are almost universally abroad, thankfully enough, but as evidenced by Oswaldo Paya, the Ladies in White and other rightist individuals and groups, they do have their sympathizers in Cuba. Just because a bourgeois is expropriated and relocated 90 miles north does not mean he poses no threat to the Cuban working classes.

So the only people that exist in Cuba are workers and farmers? And because of that the Cuban government represents the interests of these workers and farmers, and therefore the whole people? Is that your line of thinking?

[Durruti's Ghost]

That's not the question. The question is whether or not counterrevolutionary liars should be confronted for their lies. You think they should be rewarded with Miami celebrity status. Revolutionaries think they should face the consequences for their slanderous fabrications.


Wait. So even if punishing the counterrevolutionary liars harms the cause of revolution in the long run, it is your position that they should still be punished? Despite the fact that if this were the case, punishing them would be counterrevolutionary in itself?

Really?

[manic expression]

So the only people that exist in Cuba are workers and farmers? And because of that the Cuban government represents the interests of these workers and farmers, and therefore the whole people? Is that your line of thinking?

The two principle classes, yes. However, there is a Cuban underclass, those who deal in the black market. And as I said, the Cuban bourgeoisie still exists, it just got kicked out of the country. To ignore this would be anti-materialist.

And the Cuban government represents the interests of the Cuban people because it represents the interests of the workers, the class which is the only truly progressive class today.

[KC]

And the Cuban government represents the interests of the Cuban people because it represents the interests of the workers, the class which is the only truly progressive class today.

So the Cuban government represents the interests of the proletariat and the bourgeoisie? If not, then it cannot represent the interests of "the Cuban people" as the bourgeoisie are Cuban people, too.

[manic expression]

Wait. So even if punishing the counterrevolutionary liars harms the cause of revolution in the long run, it is your position that they should still be punished? Despite the fact that if this were the case, punishing them would be counterrevolutionary in itself?

Really?

We've been over this many times but you still don't get it. The government's actions don't hurt the revolution in the long run for multiple reasons. First, it ensures that no precedent accepting (and indirectly encouraging) such lies is established, which aids the work of communists worldwide. Denying ammunition to imperialist propaganda in the long run means making clear that lying about Cuba will not be tolerated. Second, it confronts lies, exposes them as false, and punishes the perpetrators. Revolution is about truth, and thus lies are the enemy of revolution; it may not seem so PR-friendly to the bleeding-heart Castrophobes on this forum, but then again they don't defend the Cuban Revolution anyway.

Third, and most importantly, what the man did was nothing but vicious slander. Crimes should be punished, period.

Lastly, nothing Cuba ever does is palatable to its reactionary enemies. Did Cuban involvement in Angola play positively in the bourgeois press? What about extending relations with Venezuela, Bolivia and Nicaragua? How about the trial and imprisonment of agents in the employ of Washington? Oftentimes, progressive acts are condemned by reactionaries. This topic is yet another example.

[manic expression]

So the Cuban government represents the interests of the proletariat and the bourgeoisie? If not, then it cannot represent the interests of "the Cuban people" as the bourgeoisie are Cuban people, too.

The Cuban working classes have constituted themselves the nation.

[Durruti's Ghost]

We've been over this many times but you still don't get it. The government's actions don't hurt the revolution in the long run for multiple reasons. First, it ensures that no precedent accepting (and indirectly encouraging) such lies is established, which aids the work of communists worldwide. Denying ammunition to imperialist propaganda in the long run means making clear that lying about Cuba will not be tolerated. Second, it confronts lies, exposes them as false, and punishes the perpetrators. Revolution is about truth, and thus lies are the enemy of revolution; it may not seem so PR-friendly to the bleeding-heart Castrophobes on this forum, but then again they don't defend the Cuban Revolution anyway.

It's not that I don't "get it". I understand your point perfectly. I just disagree with it. Rather, it is you who doesn't "get it". I didn't ask if you thought the government's actions hurt the revolution in the long run; obviously, you don't. I asked if you would support their actions even if it did hurt the revolution in the long run.

You're avoiding the question.


Third, and most importantly, what the man did was nothing but vicious slander. Crimes should be punished, period.

No they shouldn't. A socialist society should replace punishment with rehabilitation, with the goal being the reduction of crime rather than some misguided attempt at vengeance.


Lastly, nothing Cuba ever does is palatable to its reactionary enemies. Did Cuban involvement in Angola play positively in the bourgeois press? What about extending relations with Venezuela, Bolivia and Nicaragua? How about the trial and imprisonment of agents in the employ of Washington? Oftentimes, progressive acts are condemned by reactionaries. This topic is yet another example.

What Cuba does should not be palatable to its reactionary enemies. It should be palatable to its revolutionary allies--meaning the working classes in foreign countries.

[manic expression]

It's not that I don't "get it". I understand your point perfectly. I just disagree with it. Rather, it is you who doesn't "get it". I didn't ask if you thought the government's actions hurt the revolution in the long run; obviously, you don't. I asked if you would support their actions even if it did hurt the revolution in the long run.

It's a moot point, because their actions do not hurt the revolution. It's like asking me if I would support the October Revolution IF it wasn't a revolutionary act.


No they shouldn't. A socialist society should replace punishment with rehabilitation, with the goal being the reduction of crime rather than some misguided attempt at vengeance.

Perhaps you missed this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/3667645.stm (http://www.anonym.to/?http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/3667645.stm)


What Cuba does should not be palatable to its reactionary enemies. It should be palatable to its revolutionary allies--meaning the working classes in foreign countries.

And since this aids the work of communists worldwide, I should think that it is.

[Durruti's Ghost]

It's a moot point, because their actions do not hurt the revolution. It's like asking me if I would support the October Revolution IF it wasn't a revolutionary act.

It isn't a moot point because it reveals whether or not the reason you support the government in this action is out of genuine concern for the revolution. In that case, while I would still disagree with you, I would at least see your position as understandable.


Perhaps you missed this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/3667645.stm (http://www.anonym.to/?http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/3667645.stm)
So Cuba's prisons are better than America's? Unsurprising. However, based on your rhetoric ("crimes should be punished, period"), it seems that your motivation for supporting the prison system is out of a desire for punishment, not rehabilitation. Such a motivation necessarily results in conditions that are inferior to what they should be, so it is a good thing that the Cuban government--apparently--does not share that motivation.


And since this aids the work of communists worldwide, I should think that it is.The fact that several revolutionary leftists here disapprove of the government's actions stands as evidence that either a) it does not aid the work of communists worldwide or b) that if it does, this does not necessarily make the action palatable to workers worldwide.

[manic expression]

It isn't a moot point because it reveals whether or not the reason you support the government in this action is out of genuine concern for the revolution. In that case, while I would still disagree with you, I would at least see your position as understandable.

The government is the engine of the revolution. That's why it did what it did. And the government's actions are beneficial to the revolution, as I outlined.


So Cuba's prisons are better than America's? Unsurprising. However, based on your rhetoric ("crimes should be punished, period"), it seems that your motivation for supporting the prison system is out of a desire for punishment, not rehabilitation. Such a motivation necessarily results in conditions that are inferior to what they should be, so it is a good thing that the Cuban government--apparently--does not share that motivation.Punishment and rehabilitation aren't mutually exclusive. The Cuban government does punish crimes (as evidenced in the link), but it takes the opportunity to train them for the future, help them find artistic outlets and more. That's what working-class society does.


The fact that several revolutionary leftists here disapprove of the government's actions stands as evidence that either a) it does not aid the work of communists worldwide or b) that if it does, this does not necessarily make the action palatable to workers worldwide.Many of those "revolutionary leftists" aren't defenders of the Cuban Revolution, so it's not really a concern of mine if they don't like this.

[Black Sheep]

Yeah,great.Since the cuban regime is de facto socialist, anynegative news that come up are imperialist propaganda, all those who believe it are light-headed fools.

If you accept that the sentence issued is true (otherwise you can filter it through your imperialist_evil-repellent deodorant) then i see no other choice than to criticize Cuban administration for this action.

Damn, so many cases of this hypocrisy in the name of anti-imperialism..
Support ahmadinejad, he stands alone against the imperialist beast.
Support the DPRK, he stands alone against the imperialist beast.

With all this support to movements & countries that show a hint of 'enemies of imperialism', the true identity of what being an enemy to imperialism is starting to fade away.

[Abc]

Many of those "revolutionary leftists" aren't defenders of the Cuban Revolution, so it's not really a concern of mine if they don't like this.
Which Cuban Revolution are you talking about? the one in the 50s that over threw a brutal dictator who was a puppet for america? because i support that one. or the one your talking about were they throw all dissenters in jail for not supporting the ruling regime? because i dont support that and contrary to what you say thats not a revolution thats a dictatorship and i personally think cuba needs another one of the first kind of revolution i mentioned....
"Freedom only for the supporters of the government, only for the members of a party – however numerous they may be – is no freedom at all. Freedom is always the freedom of the dissenter."-Rosa Luxemburg

[Revy]

He did not say anything against the Cuban people, state, workers, or socialism. He merely said "We need food in Cuba". Wow, what a thought-crime of enormous magnitude.

[willdw79]

He did not say anything against the Cuban people, state, workers, or socialism. He merely said "We need food in Cuba". Wow, what a thought-crime of enormous magnitude.
If by thought crime you mean subversive lie, then yes, I agree.

[Luís Henrique]

So a Cuban citizen got sentenced to jail because he was spewing "political" speech while drunk. This is dictatorship.

And an American citizen got sentenced to jail because she gave a blowjob to a classmate. This is rule of law.

Much difference, isn't it?

Luís Henrique

[manic expression]

Which Cuban Revolution are you talking about? the one in the 50s that over threw a brutal dictator who was a puppet for america? because i support that one. or the one your talking about were they throw all dissenters in jail for not supporting the ruling regime? because i dont support that and contrary to what you say thats not a revolution thats a dictatorship and i personally think cuba needs another one of the first kind of revolution i mentioned....

No, you don't support "that one", and if you knew the first thing about the organization that carried out "that one", you would know that your ideology has just about nothing to do with "that one".


"Freedom only for the supporters of the government, only for the members of a party – however numerous they may be – is no freedom at all. Freedom is always the freedom of the dissenter."-Rosa LuxemburgTell that to Oswaldo Paya and the Ladies in White.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4569981.stm

I trust you knew about those dissident groups, groups that are permitted to protest the government. You didn't just assume there was no legal opposition in Cuba, did you?


So a Cuban citizen got sentenced to jail because he was spewing "political" speech while drunk. This is dictatorship.

Well, I see it as an example of a working-class government doing what it needs to do to address slander. But aside from that, I see (and respect) the point you're making.

[el_chavista]

NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - If a large swath of the population cut down on calories and took up exercise, the resulting health benefits could be extensive, a new study suggests.
The findings are based on an analysis of the economic crisis in Cuba from 1989 to 2000. While the circumstances were dire, and Cuban citizens' health suffered in certain ways, researchers found that significant health benefits also emerged.
Specifically, people's overall calorie intake declined, while their physical activity levels climbed -- mainly as a result of walking or biking instead of paying for public transportation.
As a result, the prevalence of obesity fell by half -- from 14 percent of the adult population to 7 percent -- and deaths from diabetes, heart disease and stroke dropped substantially.
"This is the first, and probably the only, natural experiment, born of unfortunate circumstances, where large effects on diabetes, cardiovascular disease and all-cause mortality have been related to sustained population-wide weight loss as a result of increased physical activity and reduced caloric intake," lead study author Dr. Manuel Franco said in a statement.
Less-dramatic changes in diet and exercise -- ones that would not dampen the quality of people's diets -- could go far in reducing rates of heart disease and diabetes, according to Franco, of the Johns Hopkins University School of Public Health in Baltimore.
The findings, which appear in the American Journal of Epidemiology, are based on vital statistics and population surveys from the years 1980 through 2005. Franco's team found that after 1989, the first year of Cuba's prolonged economic downturn, calorie intake dropped substantially.
In 1988, the average person consumed 2,899 calories; that fell to 1,863 by 1993. Based on a number of population studies, the prevalence of obesity was cut in half over roughly a decade.
Even more importantly, the researchers found, deaths attributed to type 2 diabetes, heart disease and stroke dropped sharply between 1997 and 2002 -- by 51 percent, 35 percent and 20 percent, respectively.
There were negative health effects as well. Among elderly Cubans, the all-cause death rate actually inched upward and there was an epidemic of degenerative nerve damage as a result of widespread nutritional deficiency. During the economic crisis, rice and sugar cane were the staples of most Cubans' diets, Franco's team notes.
The adverse effects seen in this study could be avoided by cutting calories but maintaining a balanced, nutritious diet, according to the researchers.
"Future steps towards prevention of cardiovascular disease and diabetes should focus on long-term population-wide interventions by encouraging physical activity and the reduction of caloric intake," Franco said.
SOURCE: American Journal of Epidemiology, online September 19, 2007.
http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSCOL96287420071009

[Abc]

let me ask again what proof do you have that cuba is a workers paradise like you claim it is? have you ever been there? or are you just "assuming" it is. because your basing everything you say around the idea that cuba is a perfect country were NOBODY is hungry and if someone says there hungry they are lying and are working for the U.S. and sould be throwen in jail for 2 years :rolleyes:

[Bright Banana Beard]

let me ask again what proof do you have that cuba is a workers paradise like you claim it is? have you ever been there? or are you just "assuming" it is. because your basing everything you say around the idea that cuba is a perfect country were NOBODY is hungry and if someone says there hungry they are lying and are working for the U.S. and sould be throwen in jail for 2 years :rolleyes:

Please point to the quote who said that Cuba is a workers paradise. In fact, many of us EVIL LENINIST never think of paradise, but defending the gain for proletarian. Most likely, this is made up from your mind.

[Abc]

Cuba is not a classless society, but it is directly and decisively controlled by the Cuban working class. The Cuban government represents the Cuban workers because that's who drives it, determines its direction and created it in the first place.

Revolutionaries get this. People who haven't the ability to defend socialism from counterrevolutionary propaganda don't.

Yes, the rantings of a a drunk guy is more valuable than statistical studies that consistently show that Cubans are not hungry. Good one. I could find drunk kids at the nearest private college campus who say they're hungry, too.

So basically hes saying that there is no hunger at ALL in cuba and the ENTIRE goverment is controlled by the working class. which would seem to me like hes saying cuba is workers paradise which of course to anybody who can think for themselfs is total bullshit. because if the cuban goverment is controlled by the working class then how come it censors all infomation in the country seems stupid to censor stuff from the people who control you, also why did so many people leave cuba in the 70s if the goverment is SOOOOO great thats there is 100% no hunger (and dont say that was never said because it was and is the excuse all the castro worshippers are using to excuse the fact a man got 2 years in jail for saying he was hungry)

[Bright Banana Beard]

I said the term workers paradise, not hunger.

[Abc]

*sigh* i was using "workers paradise" to describe what you guys are calling cuba, no one has directly used the term but it has been implyed in several posts such as cuba having 100% no hunger and being 100% controlled by the working class which is bullshit

[black magick hustla]

The stalinists are tied to the defense of the capitalist nation-state, and it does not surprise me that they support throwing a drunkard for saying drunk shit into jail, all for the sake of "building socialism" and fighting the yankees. Workers are just dispensable chess pieces in the fight against"imperialism". I agree with Myasnikov:



"Comrade Lenin, you say that I want liberty of the press for the bourgeosie. In the contrary, I want freedom of press for me, a proletarian, a member of the party for fifteen years. Surely, I have won a bit of freedom of press, atleast inside the party. Or is it that I have to get out of the party in the moment I am in disagreement with the evaluation of the social forces? ... You say the jaws of the bourgeosie need to be shattered. The problem with this, is that when you lift your hand against the capitalist, you give a blow to the worker. You know well that for these words that I am now uttering hundreds, maybe thousands, of workers are rotting in the prisons. That I am free is just because I am a veteran communist, because I have suffered for my beliefs, and I am known by the masses of workers. If it weren´t for this, if I were just an ordinary mechanic of the same factory, where would I be? In a Cheka prison, or more probably, obligated to "escape", in the same way I made Romanov "escape". I will say this once more: You lifr your hand against the bourgeosie, but I am the one spitting blood, and it is us, the workers, whose jaws are shattered. (Letter to Comrade Lenin, Augustg 8, 1921)-

[Abc]

who wrote that letter?

[black magick hustla]

Gavril Myasnikov, a big personality in the bolshevik party.

[manic expression]

*sigh* i was using "workers paradise" to describe what you guys are calling cuba, no one has directly used the term

Good, so now we've established that you're assuming things that you simply don't know. In essence, you're talking out of your a**.


Workers are just dispensable chess pieces in the fight against"imperialism".

Like our anarchist friend Billy Mays, this is a whole lot of conjecture, with absolutely nothing behind it. Yeah, the PCC doesn't care about workers...which is why they've bent over backwards to send thousands of doctors to help workers around the world and haven't gotten a dime from it. That must also be why they sent their comrades to fight apartheid in Angola, and didn't get anything out of it except the fulfillment of their internationalist principles. But I guess you forgot that, didn't you?

Try coming up with a serious political argument next time, OK? Good luck.

Oh, wait, but if you did that, you wouldn't get any precious anarchist rep. Decisions, decisions.

[Abc]

:laugh::laugh::laugh: he says i'm assuming stuff ! the person who has NEVER been to cuba yet somehow magically knows its this perfect place were no one is ever hungry yet has NO evidence to support that claim says i'm assuming stuff and good job btw on ignoring everything else i posted like why the goverment censors infomation if its as you claim "run by the workers"

[manic expression]

:laugh::laugh::laugh: he says i'm assuming stuff ! the person who has NEVER been to cuba yet somehow magically knows its this perfect place were no one is ever hungry yet has NO evidence to support that claim says i'm assuming stuff and good job btw on ignoring everything else i posted like why the goverment censors infomation if its as you claim "run by the workers"

The difference between you and I is that I have actually done my homework on Cuba. Not only do I base my opinions on Cuba from first-hand reports by non-communists, the reports and sources posted throughout this thread support my points. Translation: I know what I'm talking about. You obviously don't, and we know this because you assumed there was no legal opposition in the country, which is simply false. Now you're running away from this because you're being dishonest.

The link I posted shows that Cuba is not going hungry. Further, the report posted by el_chavista shows that even when Cuba was in its darkest days, public health actually improved.

So, basically, you're still talking out of your a**, as most Castrophobes are wont to do.

[willdw79]

The stalinists are tied to the defense of the capitalist nation-state, and it does not surprise me that they support throwing a drunkard for saying drunk shit into jail, all for the sake of "building socialism" and fighting the yankees. Workers are just dispensable chess pieces in the fight against"imperialism". I agree with Myasnikov:



"Comrade Lenin, you say that I want liberty of the press for the bourgeosie. In the contrary, I want freedom of press for me, a proletarian, a member of the party for fifteen years. Surely, I have won a bit of freedom of press, atleast inside the party. Or is it that I have to get out of the party in the moment I am in disagreement with the evaluation of the social forces? ... You say the jaws of the bourgeosie need to be shattered. The problem with this, is that when you lift your hand against the capitalist, you give a blow to the worker. You know well that for these words that I am now uttering hundreds, maybe thousands, of workers are rotting in the prisons. That I am free is just because I am a veteran communist, because I have suffered for my beliefs, and I am known by the masses of workers. If it weren´t for this, if I were just an ordinary mechanic of the same factory, where would I be? In a Cheka prison, or more probably, obligated to "escape", in the same way I made Romanov "escape". I will say this once more: You lifr your hand against the bourgeosie, but I am the one spitting blood, and it is us, the workers, whose jaws are shattered. (Letter to Comrade Lenin, Augustg 8, 1921)-
I feel sorry for certain people when they get hurt. I felt sorry for the last person that I hit, but it doesn't change anything. I was right for doing it. I feel bad for the drunk dude too, but that don't mean he got what he had coming to him.

I have linked a video of four people who were beaten and executed. If they did the things that they confessed to, they were fucked up, and deserved to be shot. I still feel compassion for them. I never let my anger get in the way of my humanity. In this particular case, the people who killed them were no better. But all that to say, even if you were 100% wrong, I still feed bad when people get hurt (prison/shot) its tragic, its a tragedy that you did what you did too and it is tragic that we respond the way we do. But I am confident that I don't know a better way. What do we do? Let people fuck us over?

The act of you, killing somebody that is totally wrong in attacking you, still harms you, and it should. I think that violence/imprisonment should be limited, but sometimes it has a place.

I did not imbedd this video, people can surf over there and watch it if they want, but it is kinda graphic. But the point is, that these guys probably deserve what they got, but I still feel sorry for them, I wouldn't intervene, but I feel sorry for them.

http://www.bestgore.com/latin-american-wars/mexican-gang-war-execution-video/

[brigadista]

im not going to any site named "bestgore"...

[black magick hustla]

Like our anarchist friend Billy Mays, this is a whole lot of conjecture, with absolutely nothing behind it. Yeah, the PCC doesn't care about workers...which is why they've bent over backwards to send thousands of doctors to help workers around the world and haven't gotten a dime from it. That must also be why they sent their comrades to fight apartheid in Angola, and didn't get anything out of it except the fulfillment of their internationalist principles. But I guess you forgot that, didn't you?.

Geopolitics does not necessarily translate in the direct increase of capital. The US pumped billions in anticommunist states, without necessarily "getting anything back". This reminds me of South Korea, which has the economic upperhand over the DPRK because of american gold. Another example is Japan. I doubt the yanks get much capital pumping money into Israel either.

There is much in international capitalist politics beyond direct expropiation of capital.

I die a little bit every time someone uses marxist leninist theology to justify the absurdest of shit like throwing a drunk guy into a cell for drunk slurs. I am 100% with Myasnikov in this. So much, that I disagree with various left communists on the issue of free speech.


I feel sorry for certain people when they get hurt. I felt sorry for the last person that I hit, but it doesn't change anything. I was right for doing it. I feel bad for the drunk dude too, but that don't mean he got what he had coming to him.

I have linked a video of four people who were beaten and executed. If they did the things that they confessed to, they were fucked up, and deserved to be shot. I still feel compassion for them. I never let my anger get in the way of my humanity. In this particular case, the people who killed them were no better. But all that to say, even if you were 100% wrong, I still feed bad when people get hurt (prison/shot) its tragic, its a tragedy that you did what you did too and it is tragic that we respond the way we do. But I am confident that I don't know a better way. What do we do? Let people fuck us over?

The act of you, killing somebody that is totally wrong in attacking you, still harms you, and it should. I think that violence/imprisonment should be limited, but sometimes it has a place.

I did not imbedd this video, people can surf over there and watch it if they want, but it is kinda graphic. But the point is, that these guys probably deserve what they got, but I still feel sorry for them, I wouldn't intervene, but I feel sorry for them

I dont see how some guy whining that he is hungry while drunk can be compared to this.

[willdw79]

Geopolitics does not necessarily translate in the direct increase of capital. The US pumped billions in anticommunist states, without necessarily "getting anything back". This reminds me of South Korea, which has the economic upperhand over the DPRK because of american gold. Another example is Japan. I doubt the yanks get much capital pumping money into Israel either.

There is much in international capitalist politics beyond direct expropiation of capital.

I die a little bit every time someone uses marxist leninist theology to justify the absurdest of shit like throwing a drunk guy into a cell for drunk slurs. I am 100% with Myasnikov in this. So much, that I disagree with various left communists on the issue of free speech.



I dont see how some guy whining that he is hungry while drunk can be compared to this.



I thought it had already been established that the guy was not really starving?

Now you may disagree and say, "yes, I believe he is starving".

Now, assume that you don't believe that he was starving. Would he be using his "free speech" or something more conniving?

[black magick hustla]

I thought it had already been established that the guy was not really starving?

Now you may disagree and say, "yes, I believe he is starving".

Now, assume that you don't believe that he was starving. Would he be using his "free speech" or something more conniving?

who gives a shit. you miss the whole point. i could care less if he was badmouthing me

[Glenn Beck]

Such a sentence is stupid and severe, I'm baffled that people can't at least agree on that, regardless of how his statements are interpreted by pro-imperialist elements.

That said, I'm suspicious that there isn't more to this story, considering the sheer irrationality of such a punishment even from a purely cynical policy perspective. Critical documentaries on Cuba are made all the time and it's not exactly a secret that there is discontent in Cuba about food rationing and the lack of certain products such as meat (what his mutterings about soya no doubt refer to). Yet another semi-candid brief spanish language documentary critical of Cuba really would not make any particular splash except among the usual audience for such a work, that is to say, world opinion would not change overall. So I'm curious as to whether this was indeed a senseless and excessive act of repression by the judicial apparatus of the state (as you see everywhere), or whether there is more to this story than media outlets are telling us.

[KurtFF8]

This may be a bad idea but...:

I don't understand when Trotskyists, who claim that they're merely followers of Lenin, point to Cuba as "State-Capitalist" as if it's such a "bad thing." I mean isn't State-Capitalism exactly what Lenin wanted to build in Russia after 1917 to develop its economy to get it "ready" for socialism?

This may be a bit too off topic, but perhaps we could discuss it in another thread.

[manic expression]

Geopolitics does not necessarily translate in the direct increase of capital. The US pumped billions in anticommunist states, without necessarily "getting anything back". This reminds me of South Korea, which has the economic upperhand over the DPRK because of american gold. Another example is Japan. I doubt the yanks get much capital pumping money into Israel either.

There is much in international capitalist politics beyond direct expropiation of capital.

That's a cute idea, now all you have to do is go beyond the normal anti-Cuban conjecture and show something concrete. You can ramble on about "expanding capital" all you like, but in the end those ramblings are all you have. I'd like to see something a bit more significant.

And the US does get a TON by pumping money into Israel and South Korea and other anti-communist states, and if you knew the first thing about geopolitics you'd know that much. In Israel, it gets a huge military attack dog in the Middle East, which it has used to attack its opponents (Nasser, etc.) on many occasions. Israel also serves as a US proxy in training American imperialist allies (including Georgia and Colombia). That's just one example, I could go on, but it's more than enough to show that your point here is utterly incorrect. And just so we're clear, Cuba didn't get anything of the sort from Angola or Namibia (or even South Africa, whose defeat of apartheid was credited largely to Cuba by Mandela himself).


I die a little bit every time someone uses marxist leninist theology to justify the absurdest of shit like throwing a drunk guy into a cell for drunk slurs.

If this kind of stuff makes you "die a little bit", then actual revolution just might kill you. Revolution and bleeding hearts don't go together very well.

[Black Sheep]

I don't understand when Trotskyists, who claim that they're merely followers of Lenin, point to Cuba as "State-Capitalist" as if it's such a "bad thing." I mean isn't State-Capitalism exactly what Lenin wanted to build in Russia after 1917 to develop its economy to get it "ready" for socialism?

This may be a bit too off topic, but perhaps we could discuss it in another thread. NEP was implemented to meet the needs of the civil war and to help relieve the population.The workers' state was leeching all resources for the war,and the workers and peasants who werent fighting were suffering.

Cuba,although small and isolated did not go though such a challenge (large scale war,that is),but on the other hand it is a small country with nothing but sugar (was i mean, at the time of the revolution).

The point is that the 'temporary retreat' to implementing capitalism (NEP) is not acting by the book, except if you are a stagist and you think that the victorious proletariat must develop capitalism and help the bourgeoisie revolution before its own,and thus sell out your own class in favor of some mystical dogma, holding back a vibrant working class from seizing power etc

In a nutshell, acting like a stalinist european communist party in times of high-level class struggle.:rolleyes:

[Jethro Tull]

willdw79[/B]] That type of propaganda coming from Cubans in Cuba could lead to the country being bombed.

you're remaining willfully ignorant of this new era of increased cooperation between the u.s. and cuban bourgeoisie, signaled by both obama's and raul's ascention to power.


The revolution was victorious in its struggle against the Cuban bourgeoisie

the insurrection in cuba was victorious against a specific faction of the bourgeoisie, which was almost immediately replaced by a parasitic class of revolutionary bureaucrats.


but it continues to further its accomplishments today.

sweden "continues to further its accomplishments today", that does not make sweden communist, but on the contrary, an advanced capitalist state. same goes for cuba.


So long as the Cuban people are free from the chains of capitalism, the revolution is alive.

in that case the revolution is long dead...however, we can revive it!


Wait, hurricanes can hurt agricultural output? No way.

you're operating under the bourgeois notions that "natural disasters" are not the byproduct of metropolitan social planning.


That actually has more to do with getting rid of dependency on petroleum and moving more to organic farming- something which the more "advanced" agricultural centers avoid by using chemical fertilizers, pesticides, and are oil-dependent, causing destruction in crop quality and a decline in food nutrition for consumers.

all this shows is that the cuban bourgeoisie are more intelligent and focused on the long-term than, say, the u.s. bourgeoisie, and that also they are more isolated and autonomous from the global geo-political regime, not that the cuban bourgeoisie is more compassionate, or the cuban state more "worker-controlled".......


Again, you're ignoring the specifics involved. Argentina and the like are far less equitable and far more stratified than Cuba, with rich, poor, homeless and so on and so forth.

"rich, poor, homeless", all of these categories still exist in cuba, you've yet to prove otherwise.

what does "stratified" and "equitable" mean, in any practical sense? you're kicking against the pricks by ignoring the statistical reality of the situation. cuba may be a relatively "equitable" regime, but not uncomparatively so.


Because anti-Cuban slander isn't something I take kindly to; this I share with the people of Cuba.

save the populist sophism, some of "the people of the u.s." don't "take kindly" to anti-american "slander", either. there is both content and discontent among segments of the working-class in every regime, including the current capitalist administration in cuba.


Wrong. It's because the ideological battle between socialism and capitalism, which includes establishing the fact that socialist societies are better for the workers than capitalist ones, is essential to our struggle.

under your definition of socialism, half the world is comprised of "socialist territories" including the u.s., japan, and western europe. the capitalist-controlled mass-media from the bbc to npr already lead the crusade for this "socialism", they don't need the help of self-proclaimed communist radicals.


Anyway, the sentence isn't unreasonable when you look at the threats against the Cuban Revolution.

which are...what, exactly?


that message is that the Cuban people will not tolerate such lies and slander.

the man was not imprisoned by "the cuban people", ("the cuban people" were given no vote on the subject) and even if he did, that would not make it right. genuine communism alters social relationships. the social relationship you're describing is identical to that of the u.s., france, etc. proponents of those systems also claim they represent or constitute "the people"


50 years of threats against the revolution

the cold war's over, buddy


The people of Cuba are made up of Cuba's workers and farmers. They are the ruling classes of Cuba.

how so? how do the workers and farmers "rule" the cuban political process?


As for the Cuban bourgeoisie, its members are almost universally abroad

would you call fidel and raul castro "workers"? in what way do they live like "workers"? are you saying that fidel and raul have the same standard of life as the average cuban? have you visited cuba, by chance?

[manic expression]

you're remaining willfully ignorant of this new era of increased cooperation between the u.s. and cuban bourgeoisie, signaled by both obama's and raul's ascention to power.

Yeah, good thing Obama didn't just extend the embargo....

Oh, wait.


the insurrection in cuba was victorious against a specific faction of the bourgeoisie, which was almost immediately replaced by a parasitic class of revolutionary bureaucrats.

Want to back that up? You won't though, because you can't.


sweden "continues to further its accomplishments today", that does not make sweden communist, but on the contrary, an advanced capitalist state. same goes for cuba.

No one said Cuba is communist. What people have pointed out, however, is that Cuba expropriated the capitalist class during the revolution. The fact is simple: the Cuban government, which is controlled by the working class, owns and controls the vast majority of Cuban production. Thus, the Cuban workers own the means of production. Have fun explaining that one away.


in that case the revolution is long dead...however, we can revive it!

:rolleyes: Yep, the Cuban workers are just waiting for you. Spare us the arrogance.


you're operating under the bourgeois notions that "natural disasters" are not the byproduct of metropolitan social planning.

Hurricanes are natural processes that metropolitan social planning cannot stop. Further, I'd like to see a system of metropolitan social planning that makes farmland impervious to hurricanes, strong winds, heavy rain, etc.

So you're saying Cuba is at fault because they didn't waterproof their farms. This is quite possibly the dumbest point ever made on this forum.


all this shows is that the cuban bourgeoisie are more intelligent and focused on the long-term than, say, the u.s. bourgeoisie, and that also they are more isolated and autonomous from the global geo-political regime, not that the cuban bourgeoisie is more compassionate, or the cuban state more "worker-controlled".......

More conjecture with nothing concrete, just like every other anti-Cuban hack on this thread.


"rich, poor, homeless", all of these categories still exist in cuba, you've yet to prove otherwise.

How many homeless people are there? How are resources allocated? Not in a capitalist manner, that's for sure.


what does "stratified" and "equitable" mean, in any practical sense? you're kicking against the pricks by ignoring the statistical reality of the situation. cuba may be a relatively "equitable" regime, but not uncomparatively so.

Equitable in the sense that the workers are empowered and in control of society. The links on this thread prove this.


which are...what, exactly?

The imperialist embargo, Alpha 66, Brothers to the Rescue (both funded and supported by the US), anti-socialist "dissidents" who got money through the US interests section in Havana.

The fact that someone needs to explain this to you shows how little you know about the subject, and how utterly ignorant you are as to the reality of the situation. Next time, ask politely, child.


the man was not imprisoned by "the cuban people", ("the cuban people" were given no vote on the subject) and even if he did, that would not make it right. genuine communism alters social relationships. the social relationship you're describing is identical to that of the u.s., france, etc. proponents of those systems also claim they represent or constitute "the people"

The Cuban people WERE given THE vote on their government. Please see previous links on this. Cuba is the most democratic country on earth, and the facts back this up (unlike your insipid Castrophobic sloganeering).


the cold war's over, buddy

US aggression against Cuba isn't over, buddy.

If you think the US isn't still hostile to the revolution, you have no idea what you're talking about, buddy.

Like I said, since you have no idea what you're talking about, you should stop blabbering about things beyond your comprehension and try to learn something, buddy.


how so? how do the workers and farmers "rule" the cuban political process?

See previous links on the Cuban electoral system, as well as the history of the revolution (the expropriation of the capitalists).


would you call fidel and raul castro "workers"? in what way do they live like "workers"? are you saying that fidel and raul have the same standard of life as the average cuban? have you visited cuba, by chance?

I'd call Fidel and Raul revolutionaries who were/are in positions of leadership in the Cuban state. Both of them gave up everything early in their lives to fight capitalism, so I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Further, while I haven't seen anything on Raul's living conditions, even Fidel's greatest enemies hold that he lives in humble quarters. His only "luxuries" are mostly for young relatives who want to play sports while they're at his residence (since security is obviously a concern).

By the way, many high-ranking Cuban leaders live in working-class neighborhoods. This is all documented, and once again you expose your utter ignorance on the Cuban Revolution.

[willdw79]

Originally Posted by willdw79
I thought it had already been established that the guy was not really starving?

Now you may disagree and say, "yes, I believe he is starving".

Now, assume that you don't believe that he was starving. Would he be using his "free speech" or something more conniving?

who gives a shit. you miss the whole point. i could care less if he was badmouthing me
Without blowing your top, where do you limit "free speech" then? What can I say to you? Anything I want, free speech? Can I make disingenuous speeches against whatever group you belong to? Can I accuse your group of being fascists, child molesters, or of starving me and my community, and bring false evidence against you? Is this "free speech" or subversive organizing, maybe its both? But sometimes it catches up with the person who exercises her/his "free" speech too freely.

[robbo203]

Originally Posted by robbo203
And there are still some pretty gullible people on this forum who think that Cuba is something other than a vicious, dirty little state capitalist dictatorship run by and in he interests of Castro and his cronies

It is something other than that, but being a liberal and not a revolutionary you don't understand that..

It always amuses me when a trotskyist on the capitalist left accuses a revolutionary of being a "liberal". Do tell me - how many liberals are you aware of who advocate the "abolition of the wages system", the litmus test of a revolutionary. At least I pass that test. I guess you being a trot do not even see the significance of it

[Abc]

If this kind of stuff makes you "die a little bit", then actual revolution just might kill you. Revolution and bleeding hearts don't go together very well.
thats true, but stone cold hearts are even worse for a revolution then bleeding ones

Without blowing your top, where do you limit "free speech" then? What can I say to you? Anything I want, free speech? Can I make disingenuous speeches against whatever group you belong to? Can I accuse your group of being fascists, child molesters, or of starving me and my community, and bring false evidence against you? Is this "free speech" or subversive organizing, maybe its both? But sometimes it catches up with the person who exercises her/his "free" speech too freely.yet i suppose if the goverment of what ever country you live in came and arrested you for your beliefs , you would complain about how "unfair" it is ammit it you support freedom of speech only for the people who believe exactly like you do, oh and about

Can I accuse your group of being fascists, child molesters, or of starving me and my community, and bring false evidence against you? ummmm hasn't your idealology (assuming your a stalinist or maoist) already done that MANY MANY times


P.S. i'm still waiting for the proof that cubas controlled by the workers....which none of the castro defenders have given

[manic expression]

thats true, but stone cold hearts are even worse for a revolution then bleeding ones

I'll take communist hearts.


yet i suppose if the goverment of what ever country you live in came and arrested you for your beliefs , you would complain about how "unfair" it is ammit it you support freedom of speech only for the people who believe exactly like you do, oh and about

Well, it's not really a question of politics. As has been stated before, Oswaldo Paya, the Ladies in White and other dissident groups and individuals are allowed to protest the government. This is a case of slander, of lying about the revolution, and that's why it was punished.


P.S. i'm still waiting for the proof that cubas controlled by the workers....which none of the castro defenders have given

It's been posted before, what whatever:

http://www.cubasolidarity.com/aboutcuba/topics/government/0504elecsys.htm

http://www.cubasolidarity.org.tt/?q=node/26

First-hand account from an American professor:

http://www.quaylargo.com/Productions/McCelvey.html

[Luís Henrique]

It always amuses me when a trotskyist on the capitalist left accuses a revolutionary of being a "liberal". Do tell me - how many liberals are you aware of who advocate the "abolition of the wages system", the litmus test of a revolutionary. At least I pass that test. I guess you being a trot do not even see the significance of it
Advocating the abolition of the wages system at a time there is no real risk of it being abolished doesn't tell much about whether one is a revolutionary or not.

Luís Henrique

[robbo203]

Advocating the abolition of the wages system at a time there is no real risk of it being abolished doesn't tell much about whether one is a revolutionary or not.

Luís Henrique

This is tantamount to saying why bother calling for a communist society, lets stick with capitalism. Its is precisely attitudes such as this that keep capialism going

[Revy]

It always amuses me when a trotskyist on the capitalist left accuses a revolutionary of being a "liberal". Do tell me - how many liberals are you aware of who advocate the "abolition of the wages system", the litmus test of a revolutionary. At least I pass that test. I guess you being a trot do not even see the significance of it

The usage of "liberal" meaninglessly, only as a slur to degrade one's political opponents, is a disgusting abuse of language....I think posters who do that should be banned for trolling.

[willdw79]

thats true, but stone cold hearts are even worse for a revolution then bleeding ones
yet i suppose if the goverment of what ever country you live in came and arrested you for your beliefs , you would complain about how "unfair" it is ammit it you support freedom of speech only for the people who believe exactly like you do, oh and about
ummmm hasn't your idealology (assuming your a stalinist or maoist) already done that MANY MANY times


P.S. i'm still waiting for the proof that cubas controlled by the workers....which none of the castro defenders have given
You are thinking in the wrong terms bro. You say "my ideology" did something. Man, get off it. You are fighting a straw man and winning big. But I said no such things that you claim "my ideology" says. That is a reactionary stance man.

The point I am trying to get across is that "free speech" can be more than that when it constitutes conspiracy to act. All I am trying to do is see where people draw the line on free speech and see if maybe, this dude crossed it.

I know a lot of these discussions degrade into some sort of wild ideological silliness. So, with that in mind, I hope that you will just respond to what people say, and then ask them what they imply (instead of assuming what is implied). It makes it so that we can learn from each other instead of slinging labels.

Talk to me, don't have an imaginary discussion with the ghost of Mao or Stalin.

[Abc]

http://www.cubasolidarity.org.tt/?q=node/26
first line i saw "The following text is taken from the Cuban Foreign Ministry's web page" thus making this link useless, of course the cuban goverment would write good stuff about its self!
http://www.cubasolidarity.com/aboutcuba/topics/government/0504elecsys.htm
this proofs nothing its just a bunch of stuff about how great cuba is with no proof i can show you many websites that talk about how free and wonderful nazi germany was but we all know thats bullshit
http://www.quaylargo.com/Productions/McCelvey.html
well for starters he says " Occasionally, I came across someone who was alienated from the system. There disaffection was not rooted in the political system but in the economic hardships that have emerged during the "special period."
thus dismissing your own theory that nobody is hungry in cuba, which means if people are hungry and yet they are thrown in jail for saying so, they are really thrown in jail so the goverment wont look bad, good job on shooting yourself in the foot :laugh:

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Billy Mays, what evidence do we have that these claims against this man are legitimate? All we have to go on are claims from the Capitalist media. If you are dismissing claims in favour of Cuba (which I think is justified) then you must also dismiss claims made by the Capitalist media. Both are lying.

[RedSonRising]

Christ people, what happened to this man is fucked up, it is largely do to the so-called propaganda war of which capitalist US aggression consists, but it's all the same an over reaction to "slander" of the Cuban State, and dressing it up as much more or much less is mostly ideological bias. But anyone who tries to discredit the relationship that a majority of workers in Cuba have to their workplace and local institutions need only visit the many informative links listed under the "Cuba" section of the Beginner's threads.

Not to get off topic but this seems to be a main point for those scolding Cuba for unjustly incarcerating this man. Personally, I think the best evidence of the workers controlling the means of production comes from the book "Cuba: A Different America", in which whole chapters are dedicated to the study of the evolution of Unions and managerial/administrative processes in relation to the workers of various industries over a period of decades, all taken from interviews and objective observation conducted by a British author.

I don't understand why Cuba is either completely uncritically Socialist and this man is a traitorous lying capitalist agent of oppression, OR Cuba is a tyrannical State Capitalist bureaucracy with no workerist revolutionary credit whatsoever crucifying a glorious truth-saying revolutionary.

[gorillafuck]

I support Cuba. They shouldn't have imposed this harsh penalty on that guy.

[mykittyhasaboner]

http://www.cubasolidarity.org.tt/?q=node/26
first line i saw "The following text is taken from the Cuban Foreign Ministry's web page" thus making this link useless, of course the cuban goverment would write good stuff about its self!
Except you'll find that what the Cuban government "writes about itself" is confirmed by outside sources. Would you kindly try and provide some sort of argument instead of trolling? If we all said that "this source is useless" right at the onset there wouldn't be much point in having a debate would there?


http://www.cubasolidarity.com/aboutcuba/topics/government/0504elecsys.htm (http://www.cubasolidarity.com/aboutcuba/topics/government/0504elecsys.htm)

this proofs nothing its just a bunch of stuff about how great cuba is with no proof i can show you many websites that talk about how free and wonderful nazi germany was but we all know thats bullshitIs this supposed to be an argument?

http://www.quaylargo.com/Productions/McCelvey.html
well for starters he says " Occasionally, I came across someone who was alienated from the system. There disaffection was not rooted in the political system but in the economic hardships that have emerged during the "special period."
Something which is blatantly obvious. The "Special Period" has left Cuba in a bit of a desperate situation, having only few trading partners. Yet the government relies on mass mobilization of workers to alleviate crises, as evidenced by their profound farming programs and furthering of democratic institutions at the onset of the Special Period.

thus dismissing your own theory that nobody is hungry in cuba, which means if people are hungry and yet they are thrown in jail for saying so, they are really thrown in jail so the goverment wont look bad, good job on shooting yourself in the foot:laugh:
Yeah sure. I don't see where anyone claimed that nobody is hungry in Cuba. As for shooting oneself in the foot, maybe you should take into account what these sources said rather than completely dismissing them immaturely or harp in on any negative information from those sources.


This is tantamount to saying why bother calling for a communist society, lets stick with capitalism. Its is precisely attitudes such as this that keep capialism going
No I believe they were saying that arbitrarily calling for the abolition of the wages system doesn't make someone a revolutionary by default.

[Abc]

Yeah sure. I don't see where anyone claimed that nobody is hungry in Cuba.
if you ammit there are hungry people in cuba, then you must also ammit its wrong for cuba to throw people in jail for saying they are hungry so you choose :D i love it when stalinists destroy each others arguments in there own stupidity

Billy Mays, what evidence do we have that these claims against this man are legitimate? All we have to go on are claims from the Capitalist media. If you are dismissing claims in favour of Cuba (which I think is justified) then you must also dismiss claims made by the Capitalist media. Both are lying.good point, but i would not put it passed cuba to do something like this

[gorillafuck]

if you ammit there are hungry people in cuba, then you must also ammit its wrong for cuba to throw people in jail for saying they are hungry so you choose :D i love it when stalinists destroy each others arguments in there own stupidity
mykittyhasaboner and manic expression are two different people, therefore if one says something that contradicts the other it doesn't make "stalinists" as a whole wrong.

[mykittyhasaboner]

if you ammit there are hungry people in cuba, then you must also ammit its wrong for cuba to throw people in jail for saying they are hungry so you choose :D
I think it was wrong to give the man a prison sentence. I don't have to choose anything except to not go along with your strawmans.



i love it when stalinists destroy each others arguments in there own stupidity

I love it when people can't make any other argument but an ad-hominem sectarian insult. It shows me that you have no interest in productive discussion and most likely have no idea what your talking about.

[manic expression]

first line i saw "The following text is taken from the Cuban Foreign Ministry's web page" thus making this link useless, of course the cuban goverment would write good stuff about its self!

Looks like you can't connect the dots, can you? Continue to see why, kid.


this proofs nothing its just a bunch of stuff about how great cuba is with no proof i can show you many websites that talk about how free and wonderful nazi germany was but we all know thats bullshit

What the hell are you talking about? The link simply describes the Cuban electoral system (which we'll get to once again in a moment). You have nothing to reject the link except your insipid pro-imperialist mythology. Honestly, your posts are getting more and more absurd each time you respond. Now, here we see where you really become a full-blown farce:


well for starters he says " Occasionally, I came across someone who was alienated from the system. There disaffection was not rooted in the political system but in the economic hardships that have emerged during the "special period."
thus dismissing your own theory that nobody is hungry in cuba, which means if people are hungry and yet they are thrown in jail for saying so, they are really thrown in jail so the goverment wont look bad, good job on shooting yourself in the foot :laugh:


Wait, wait. First, you missed the whole part where that professor of sociology, by all indications a non-communist and a balanced observer, validated everything the other two links said. The fact is that his research verifies the claims made by the two other links on Cuban elections (especially regarding the role of the PCC), something you've childishly tried to deny.

Further, citing economic hardships does not imply hunger. Nowhere does the professor say Cubans were hungry. Economic hardship in Cuba, means less consumer products, fewer luxuries and the like. The professor never directly or indirectly implied that Cubans were going hungry, he simply says there are people who don't support the revolutionary government (this corroborates what I've been saying this whole time, and it contradicts what you've been mindlessly repeating throughout the thread).

So here we are once more. You're saying people in Cuba are hungry because of "economic hardship" that I pointed out before (see every post I made that included a point on the imperialist embargo), even though you have absolutely nothing to support this. It is a testament to the Cuban government that Cubans are not hungry with such economic hardship. Oh, but they're hungry, you say? What do you have to support this? I thought so, kid.

Once again, you make a bigger fool out of yourself every time you talk about this topic: a topic you know nothing about.

Go back and read the links until you understand them, child.

[manic expression]

It shows me that you have no interest in productive discussion and most likely have no idea what your talking about.

Let me say beyond any doubt that this political three-year-old has absolutely no idea what they're talking about. I would call Billy Mays a fool, but that would give the poster too much credit.

[mykittyhasaboner]

Let me say beyond any doubt that this political three-year-old has absolutely no idea what they're talking about. I would call Billy Mays a fool, but that would give the poster too much credit.
Well I think if they actually tried to comprehend the situation with the materials provided maybe they could learn a thing or two. Instead they chose to deny everything put forth as an argument against his claims. I don't think they are a fool, I think their just foolishly misunderstanding (possibly intentionally) the situation were talking about here.

[Pogue]

A starving man, a homosexual anarcho-syndicalist and an independent journalist walk into a bar in Havana...

[mykittyhasaboner]

A starving man, a homosexual anarcho-syndicalist and an independent journalist walk into a bar in Havana...

Good one! :rolleyes:

[Jethro Tull]

Yeah, good thing Obama didn't just extend the embargo....

so? politicians do all sorts of things in the name of expediency. Do you think that abolishing the embargo would be feasible for obama right now as he is being accused by the populist-right and the g.o.p. of having a "marxist" public health care agenda? yet obama still stands among the camp of the bourgeoisie that would benefit from looser trade relations between the u.s. and cuba. (how else can we explain the gradual progress he's made in the past with easing embargo legislature?) Are we supposed to ignore raul's market liberalization and preparations to accommodate western tourists? ("Raul Castro lifts brother Fidel's ban on Cubans staying in tourist hotels", daily mail march 08


Want to back that up? You won't though, because you can't.1933-1993: Cuba - socialist paradise or Castro's fiefdom?
1865-2001: Cuban Anarchism: The history of a movement - Frank Fernandez Chapter 4: Castroism and Confrontation (1959-1961)

both available on libcom


No one said Cuba is communist. What people have pointed out, however, is that Cuba expropriated the capitalist class during the revolution. the expropriation of any group of capitalists is meaningless if it does not produce the conditions of communism. in lieu of communism the only alternative is the imposition of a new bureaucratic administration.


The fact is simple: the Cuban government, which is controlled by the working class, owns and controls the vast majority of Cuban production.that statement may be simple, but not fact. the cuban masses do not "own and control" the cuban police, jails, etc. just because they get to vote.


Thus, the Cuban workers own the means of production.then why are they still workers?


Have fun explaining that one away.have fun living in a technocratic stalinist hellhole...


Yep, the Cuban workers are just waiting for you.they're waiting for me to support the cuban state's efforts to imprison them for intellectual dissent.


Hurricanes are natural processes that metropolitan social planning cannot stop.exactly, societies that lived without "metropolitan social planning", such as the caribs and arawaks did not suffer as drastically from hurricanes. oh yeah the brutal colonization of those peoples by columbus was "historically progressive"...


More conjecture with nothing concrete, just like every other anti-Cuban hack on this thread.i am not "anti-cuban", i am anti-bourgeois


How many homeless people are there?irrelevant. if someone is homeless, they don't have control over the means of production, end of story.


The imperialist embargohow does the embargo threaten the existence of the "socialist" cuban administration? if anything it has forced the cuban bourgeoisie (oh, i forgot, there is no cuban bourgeoisie) to adapt and develop an independent infrastructure, giving it the advantage over similar capitalist regimes.


Alpha 66, Brothers to the Rescue (both funded and supported by the US), anti-socialist "dissidents" who got money through the US interests section in Havana.all those guys are assholes but they're not going to overthrow the cuban state any time soon.


The Cuban people WERE given THE vote on their government. workers in the u.s., western europe, japan, and the vast majority of capitalist states in the world are allowed to vote. voting does not nessecitate communism, elections are an ordinary part of capitalist control.


Cuba is the most democratic country on earthperhaps, however democracy is not communism.


your insipid Castrophobic sloganeeringi do not fear castro, i objectively recognize his material interests.


US aggression against Cuba isn't overit isn't? do you honestly thnk the u.s. could take on cuba in any sort of military showdown ? perhaps you give the "paper tigers" more credit than they deserve...?


If you think the US isn't still hostile to the revolutionif by "the revolution", you mean the current cuban administration, of course hostility exists. (hostility exists between all factions of the bourgeoisie) that doesn't mean the u.s. is stupid enough to invade cuba or that capitalists in both the u.s. and cuba don't want to reform trade agreements.


Like I said, since you have no idea what you're talking about, you should stop blabbering about things beyond your comprehension and try to learn something, buddy.if only rhetoric substituted for academic substance...


I'd call Fidel and Raul revolutionaries who were/are in positions of leadership in the Cuban state.hey, just like george washington!


Further, while I haven't seen anything on Raul's living conditions"since you have no idea what you're talking about, you should stop blabbering about things beyond your comprehension"


even Fidel's greatest enemies hold that he lives in humble quarters.in 2006, forbes estimated castro's personal fortune at $900 million.

you can use google to find satellite photos of fidel castro's mansion from '06


His only "luxuries" are mostly for young relatives who want to play sports while they're at his residence (since security is obviously a concern).i guess there's no way to safely play sports without being murdered by counter-revolutionaries unless you have a centralized police force :rolleyes:


By the way, many high-ranking Cuban leaders live in working-class neighborhoods. This is all documentedyet you fail to provide documentation. hey, joe biden is from scranton, pennsylvania!

[willdw79]

so? politicians do all sorts of things in the name of expediency. Do you think that abolishing the embargo would be feasible for obama right now as he is being accused by the populist-right and the g.o.p. of having a "marxist" public health care agenda? yet obama still stands among the camp of the bourgeoisie that would benefit from looser trade relations between the u.s. and cuba. (how else can we explain the gradual progress he's made in the past with easing embargo legislature?) Are we supposed to ignore raul's market liberalization and preparations to accommodate western tourists? ("Raul Castro lifts brother Fidel's ban on Cubans staying in tourist hotels", daily mail march 08

1933-1993: Cuba - socialist paradise or Castro's fiefdom?
1865-2001: Cuban Anarchism: The history of a movement - Frank Fernandez Chapter 4: Castroism and Confrontation (1959-1961)

both available on libcom

the expropriation of any group of capitalists is meaningless if it does not produce the conditions of communism. in lieu of communism the only alternative is the imposition of a new bureaucratic administration.

that statement may be simple, but not fact. the cuban masses do not "own and control" the cuban police, jails, etc. just because they get to vote.

then why are they still workers?

have fun living in a technocratic stalinist hellhole...

they're waiting for me to support the cuban state's efforts to imprison them for intellectual dissent.

exactly, societies that lived without "metropolitan social planning", such as the caribs and arawaks did not suffer as drastically from hurricanes. oh yeah the brutal colonization of those peoples by columbus was "historically progressive"...

i am not "anti-cuban", i am anti-bourgeois

irrelevant. if someone is homeless, they don't have control over the means of production, end of story.

how does the embargo threaten the existence of the "socialist" cuban administration? if anything it has forced the cuban bourgeoisie (oh, i forgot, there is no cuban bourgeoisie) to adapt and develop an independent infrastructure, giving it the advantage over similar capitalist regimes.

all those guys are assholes but they're not going to overthrow the cuban state any time soon.

workers in the u.s., western europe, japan, and the vast majority of capitalist states in the world are allowed to vote. voting does not nessecitate communism, elections are an ordinary part of capitalist control.

perhaps, however democracy is not communism.

i do not fear castro, i objectively recognize his material interests.

it isn't? do you honestly thnk the u.s. could take on cuba in any sort of military showdown ? perhaps you give the "paper tigers" more credit than they deserve...?

if by "the revolution", you mean the current cuban administration, of course hostility exists. (hostility exists between all factions of the bourgeoisie) that doesn't mean the u.s. is stupid enough to invade cuba or that capitalists in both the u.s. and cuba don't want to reform trade agreements.

if only rhetoric substituted for academic substance...

hey, just like george washington!

"since you have no idea what you're talking about, you should stop blabbering about things beyond your comprehension"

in 2006, forbes estimated castro's personal fortune at $900 million.

you can use google to find satellite photos of fidel castro's mansion from '06

i guess there's no way to safely play sports without being murdered by counter-revolutionaries unless you have a centralized police force :rolleyes:

yet you fail to provide documentation. hey, joe biden is from scranton, pennsylvania!
My my, arent we quick with the one liners.... if only the world would just fit into the mold that you made for it I could believe you.

[leochaos]

Hi,
I think that are 2 points to make
-the drunk guy does not look like somebody who is starving.He wanted something to eat, maybe a snack?
He has been supposedly given a 2 year sentence.Let's hope that it may be suspended or whatever.
People acting in a disorderly way are beaten/arrested in many countries.I have seen a drunk serbian who was only talking loudly beaten up and attacked by a police dog in Germany.
When I was in jail at one point my cellmate was a young boy who had stolen one pair pf jeans! Do not forget all the pothead in jail in the Usa.
So,please do not make something big of this.
One good thing is that it may remind people that "socialist" Cuba is...soething.
Of course I do support the cuban government resistance to the american gangstersr.And we all know that Fidel Castro has done a lot of good things.But it ay be silly of us to consider him a socialist.The idea of a communist leader remaining in power for 50 years and then passing it(the power) to his brother does not really fit any marxist standard...I know,i know...realpolitik
Anyway VIVA CUBA and Fidel

[pranabjyoti]

I am very very curious to know that the men have sufficient money to buy drinks, but don't have sufficient to buy food for him or his family. Are hard drinks cheaper than food in Cuba? The story can be true, when it is a fact.

[manic expression]

The below post is a bunch of misinformed BS that boils down to anti-Cuban slander. However, I'll indulge this counterrevolutionary in a response, while acknowledging that such garbage is best ignored.


1933-1993: Cuba - socialist paradise or Castro's fiefdom?
1865-2001: Cuban Anarchism: The history of a movement - Frank Fernandez Chapter 4: Castroism and Confrontation (1959-1961)

both available on libcomBiased sources that are as vague as they are unhelpful. Post something specific and pertinent, not just a general citation. And preferably something not from an anarchist raghouse.


the expropriation of any group of capitalists is meaningless if it does not produce the conditions of communism. in lieu of communism the only alternative is the imposition of a new bureaucratic administration.No one ever said Cuba was a communist society, big guy. Try to keep up.


that statement may be simple, but not fact. the cuban masses do not "own and control" the cuban police, jails, etc. just because they get to vote.Yes, they do. See previous links.

And in response to your little anarchist screeds, here's something actually reputable that you might want to check out.

http://www.amazon.com/Democracy-1997-98-Elections-Arnold-August/dp/0968508405/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1253642651&sr=8-12


then why are they still workers?Because they still make stuff. You don't stop making things when you take power.


they're waiting for me to support the cuban state's efforts to imprison them for intellectual dissent.Like whom? The "journalists" who were documented to have taken money from exile groups via the US government? Who are you talking about?

Like most anarchists, you're living in a fantasy world. Actual dissidents in Cuba, dissidents who (despite being counterrevolutionary) don't take money from subversive terrorists, are allowed a voice in Cuba:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4569981.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3163048.stm


exactly, societies that lived without "metropolitan social planning", such as the caribs and arawaks did not suffer as drastically from hurricanes. oh yeah the brutal colonization of those peoples by columbus was "historically progressive"...This is such a stupid argument. The Caribs and Arawaks had puny populations, small living areas and didn't live off of sustained agriculture. But yeah, no difference whatsoever! My word your point is just dumb.

Regardless of what you think of Columbus, industrialization is progressive, and if you think differently, I suggest going back to your cave, it suits you.


i am not "anti-cuban", i am anti-bourgeoisYour slander against the Cuban workers qualifies you as anti-Cuban, but it's good to know that it's unintentional.

And your points are hackish.


irrelevant. if someone is homeless, they don't have control over the means of production, end of story.Cuba has basically eradicated homelessness. That's the point.


how does the embargo threaten the existence of the "socialist" cuban administration? if anything it has forced the cuban bourgeoisie (oh, i forgot, there is no cuban bourgeoisie) to adapt and develop an independent infrastructure, giving it the advantage over similar capitalist regimes.:lol: What circular logic. Have any proof of an empowered Cuban bourgeoisie? Have fun with that, kid.


all those guys are assholes but they're not going to overthrow the cuban state any time soon.Just like Yeltsin? Gotcha.


workers in the u.s., western europe, japan, and the vast majority of capitalist states in the world are allowed to vote. voting does not nessecitate communism, elections are an ordinary part of capitalist control.The Cuban electoral system is nowhere to be found in those regions, precisely because it is working-class democracy. Show me a capitalist country where you can run an important campaign and win without spending any money. Show me a capitalist country in which candidates are nominated by public local meetings, done neighborhood to neighborhood, instead of by a political party (usually one swimming in corporate money). You won't, because you can't.


i do not fear castro, i objectively recognize his material interests.You don't like Fidel because you believe anti-Cuban propaganda. Typical Castrophobe.


it isn't? do you honestly thnk the u.s. could take on cuba in any sort of military showdown ? perhaps you give the "paper tigers" more credit than they deserve...?Aggression includes blockades and subversion, just so you know. But then again, you don't understand the situation, so it's no big deal.


if by "the revolution", you mean the current cuban administration, of course hostility exists. (hostility exists between all factions of the bourgeoisie) that doesn't mean the u.s. is stupid enough to invade cuba or that capitalists in both the u.s. and cuba don't want to reform trade agreements.:lol:

More illogical tripe. Show us why you think there's a Cuban bourgeoisie in power...aside from your obsessive hatred of working-class societies, of course.


if only rhetoric substituted for academic substance...If you want to go there, just look at the links I've posted.

Thanks.


hey, just like george washington!Hey, except George Washington was a slave-owner! Along with a large portion of the Continental Congress! Whereas the revolutionaries of Cuba own no businesses, employ no labor and do not live in luxury, even according to their enemies!

Hey, you don't know what you're talking about!

Hey, you're just like every other anarchist fool who thinks they can challenge the Cuban working class by relying on capitalist lies!


"since you have no idea what you're talking about, you should stop blabbering about things beyond your comprehension"It's worth repeating. Take my advice and you wouldn't get embarrassed.


in 2006, forbes estimated castro's personal fortune at $900 million. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol:

That's the best one yet. Forbes admitted, publicly, that they had no proof for their claims. In fact, they based that report on nothing more than the erroneous belief that Fidel personally owns all Cuban industry, which is objectively untrue.

Lastly, we see that you are, just as I said, basing your positions on bourgeois sources. Forbes and you agree on a lot, it seems.


you can use google to find satellite photos of fidel castro's mansion from '06You can also search this site and see the discussions in which it was proven beyond any doubt that Fidel does not live in unreasonable conditions. The luxuries there are mostly for younger visitors, such as children who want to play sports (basketball, tennis, etc.) while they're at Fidel's residence (Fidel's a baseball player, why would he want a basketball court?). So again, you have nothing except conjecture, anti-Cuban conjecture at that.


i guess there's no way to safely play sports without being murdered by counter-revolutionaries unless you have a centralized police force :rolleyes:With no centralized police force, you gift counterrevolutionaries advantages, yes. But that's beside the point. The point is that Fidel has been the target of numerous assassination attempts, and security is simply a necessity.

Since you don't understand the situation, though, you would ignore this like the Castrophobe you are.


yet you fail to provide documentation. hey, joe biden is from scranton, pennsylvania!OK, so you don't care because you want to ignore class dynamics in order to believe your fantasies. I see.

Oh, and next time, try not to make your post format as ridiculous and obnoxious as your insipid arguments. Thanks.

[Jethro Tull]

The below post is a bunch of misinformed BS that boils down to anti-Cuban slander. However, I'll indulge this counterrevolutionary in a response, while acknowledging that such garbage is best ignored.

save the drama for macbeth...


Biased sources that are as vague as they are unhelpful. Post something specific and pertinent, not just a general citation. And preferably something not from an anarchist raghouse.if the sources are as poor as you claim, you could easily refute them. you're committing the logical fallacy of ad hominem (specifically appeal to ridicule) rather than addressing the claims of your opponents. this either shows you are desperate to win the argument, or conversely, you are a consistently terrible debater. (as an aside, you linked to a PSL article as evidence. Are you yourself any more of a free thinker?)

i could provide you with other sources all day. if they're written by anarchists, you'll accuse me of belonging to an "anarchist raghouse", if i use a source from the mainstream media, you'll call me a capitalist stooge, if i provide marxist-leninist sources, you'll call me an ultra-leninist saboteur. yet you're willing to swallow any soapy capitalist PR blowjob about cuba's "progressive" prison policies, channels of representative democracy, health care plan, or "green" restructuring efforts because you're desperate to believe in the illusion of a 50+ year old "cuban revolution". (as to why you desperately neeed to believe such things, i dare not at this date speculate)

i can cite examples of how the state of cuba sucks all day, you will not deny that any specific aspect of misery that exists under present society is present in the reigon of cuba, merely less severe in comparison to other states, but merely excuse cuba as being less severe in these respects than rival capitalist states. (this pointless hobby can be played all day with limitless configuarations; the u.s. has safer gun control and freedom of speech laws than the p.r.c., israel has more civil rights for gays than iran, pakistan has freer marijuana laws than japan, the maldives has a better state bird than east timor, blah blah blah) yes, wage exists in cuba, but cuba is not capitalist because other capitalist regimes have worse forms of wage slavery. yes, there are homeless people in cuba, but other capitalist regimes have more homeless people. yes, there are prisons in cuba, but they are less brutal than other capitalist prisons. under the same ethos you could easily proclaim sweden a "worker's state". instead we must conclude that cuba is among the more advanced capitalist regimes.


No one ever said Cuba was a communist society, big guy.cuba is by your own admission not communist., yet there is no cuban bourgeoisie. i suppose that makes cuba a fuedal regime. so is raul the pharoah?


Try to keep up.keeping up with your lewis carroll logic is a daunting task indeed. perhaps you should try to keep up with the scientific theories of karl marx, et. al.


Yes, they do. See previous links.the only links of your i could find after coming through the archives of this silly thread are the psl link and the bbc link about how compassionate the cuban prison system is. i'm assuing i'm missing some links you provided about the system of representative democracy present in cuba. representative democracy is not the same thing as communism which nessecitates control over one's own means of production and which will be brought about by the self-abolition of the proletariat.


And in response to your little anarchist screeds, here's something actually reputable that you might want to check out.

you might want to check out something called das kapital.


Because they still make stuff. You don't stop making things when you take power.yes, let's wipe our asses with marx's critique of labor.


Who are you talking about?the drunk guy? y'nknow, the guy this thread's about?
and all the other people locked in cuban prisons (until recently the cuban legal system prohibited marijuana-consumption and homosexuality. i see from that bbc article someone is in prison for "robbery"...why would someone be motivated to violently appropriate wealth in such a post-capitalist society?)


Like most anarchists, you're living in a fantasy world.less fluff.


Actual dissidents in Cuba, dissidents who (despite being counterrevolutionary) don't take money from subversive terrorists, are allowed a voice in Cubayeah, and dissidents of all stripes are allowed to operate to some extent in the u.s. as well, as this very message board makes evident.



The Caribs and Arawaks had puny populationswell yes, more human beings does mean more chances for the winds of the hurricane to cross paths with a human being. however, large population or small, the capitalist metropolis and the bureaucratic systems of social restriction that accompany it are not your friends in a natural disaster. most casualties from "natural" disasters are mostly the unnatural product of capitalist social conditions. (yes even in "socialist" countries like cuba...why doesn't fidel let all the hurricane victims camp on his family's precious private sports facility?) yes, the people of cuba will have to gradually reduce their population, just like the people in virtually every other part of the world, however, large or small, the cuban population does not need the capitalist metropolis, which is merely an aparatus of commodity-accumilation, to face their dillemas.


small living areas[/quote[

i fail to see the relevance. i'm sure the apartments in cuban slums ("working class neighborhoods", i believe as you called them) and cells in cuban prisons qualify as "small living areas".

[quote]and didn't live off of sustained agriculture.what is "sustained agriculture"? as opposed to "unsustained agriculture"? (to me that would be capitalism)

are you proposing the arawaks and caribs did not understand the principles of agriculture? (not all agriculture is capitalist automated-monoculture)


But yeah, no difference whatsoever!i didn't say "no difference whatsoever". the crucial difference is that modern-day cuba is a capitalist society.


Regardless of what you think of Columbus, industrialization is progressive, and if you think differently, I suggest going back to your cave, it suits you.a. "industrialization" (a.k.a. capitalist valorization and commodity-accumulation) is progressive.
b. "industrialization" (a.k.a. capitalist valorization and commodity-accumulation) historically required the mass-slaughters, mass-rapes, and mass-enslavements so beautifully exemplified by the legacy of columbus.
c. therefore, mass-slaughters, etc. as exemplified by columbus are progressive.

you can't have your cake and eat it too.

ps. how does it feel being stuck in a determinist mental prison?


Your slander against the Cuban workers qualifies you as anti-Cubanwell yes, in the cuba that lives in your imagination, insulting the cuban regime is "slander against the cuban workers", because in your special, imaginary cuba, the workers unequivocally and universally identify on an intimate level with the projects of the cuban state. were your imaginary cuba a reality, i would be anti-cuban, since your imaginary cubans are a people blissfully flee of any cynicism and are therefore uninteresting. thankfully there are a good deal of real cuban workers who live in reality and face daily interaction with the cuban regime with the cynicism that we greet our imperial overseers in the u.s.


but it's good to know that it's unintentional.no, i just really hate daiquiris


Cuba has basically eradicated homelessness. That's the point."basically". nice you left that literary shadow of a doubt

google books are your friend (wow, having a house fall on your head, that sounds fun...)

i will grant you that cuba elliminated a vast amount of homelessness. however, that does not make cuba communist, worker-controlled, or sans bourgeoisie.


Have any proof of an empowered Cuban bourgeoisie?yes, castro's estate...which i've already established is vast.


Have fun with that, kid.that assignment was not nearly challenging enough to be "fun", however i find it bizarre that my disagreement with you over the question of the cuban state makes me a "kid"...more useless ad hominem deployed in a failed attempt to strenghten your position.


Just like Yeltsin?raul is just like yeltsin....actually, he's more like gorbachev and deng xiaoping...

anyway the circumstances of the ussr are materially different than those of cuba, although you obviously don't believe in analysis of material history. the ussr was in a state of catastrophe, whereas cuba is currently a quite vibrant state. also, the collapse of the ussr was nothing like your hypothetical red dawn-in-reverse where obama goes all hitler on his foreign policy and sends an army of gusano paramilitaries to dismantle the cuban welfare state. the ussr was dismantled with almost full cooperation by the soviet bourgeoisie. the restructuring of the reigon may have benefitted western imperialists but it hasn't nessicarily hurt the russian imperialists either.

Gotcha.


working-class democracy.i don't recognize the validity or even coherence of that term.


Show me a capitalist country where you can run an important campaign and win without spending any money.enough of your "show me" games. to say "you can run an important campaign and win without spending any money" in cuba is to say "you can also run an important campaign and win with spending money". the mere fact that we're discussing this issue proves that the situation in cuba is a capitalist situation. establishing that cuban capitalist representation is more democratic, direct, or authentic will not ameliorate cuba. a better prison is still a prison.


Show me a capitalist country in which candidates are nominated by public local meetings, done neighborhood to neighborhoodagain, irrelevant. show me a capitalist country that's exactly like norway in every single way. i am not disputing that cuba is more representative than other capitalist regimes, i am disputing the notion that cuba is not capitalist.


You don't like Fidel because you believe anti-Cuban propaganda.i don't like fidel because i don't like capitalists


Aggression includes blockades and subversion, just so you know.duh. i never denied there was aggression. i denied that the cuban "revolution" (a.k.a. the cuban state) was under "threat" of destruction by yanqui imperialists...(are you honestly going to say the embargo is going to destroy cuba now, i specifically mocked speculation that cuba would be bombed.


Show us why you think there's a Cuban bourgeoisie in power...

[quote]When the Soviet Union was no longer able to help, the recession of the early 1990s forced Cuba to change its policies. It loosened control of the markets, allowed people to own their own businesses, allowed foreign ownership within Cuba, encouraged tourism, created a tax system, and legalized U.S. currency. Income inequality has resulted; those who are on a fixed income from the Cuban state are earning far less than those who have contact with U.S. dollars. For example, a doctor might earn 40 dollars a month, while a taxi driver might receive 40 dollars a week in tips.i guess the workers decided to do all that...


aside from your obsessive hatred of working-class societies, of course.i'm not a vulgar marxist, so i don't use "working-class" as a synonym for "good". working-class is about material conditions not morality

except George Washington was a slave-owner!did castro shut down the sugar plantations? hell no! wage slavery is a form of a slavery....


Hey, you're just like every other anarchist foolbetter a fool than a capitalist apologist.


who thinks they can challenge the Cuban working class by relying on capitalist lies!yes i seriously think the biggest "challenge" to raul's bureaucratic rule is anarchists posting on the internet....


That's the best one yet. Forbes admitted, publicly, that they had no proof for their claims.anonymous sources is not the same thing as "no proof"

anyway i don't think the forbes calculation is that accurate, (i certainly don't take their "rumors" of "swiss bank accounts" on faith, but that's not even included in the $900 estimate) but either way we're talking about a ballpark of millions of dollars. (their previous estimate of $150 million was probably more accurate, either way that's more money than either of us will ever see.)


In fact, they based that report on nothing more than the erroneous belief that Fidel personally owns all Cuban industryno, if i recall, their equasion only assumed a very small portion of the total wealth of a few specific conglomorates was ending up directly in castro's estate...you can't lie your way out of the situation.

besides you just want to take castro's word for it: "What do I want the money for if I'm going to turn 80? What do I want money for now if I never wanted it before?" why would an honest old man lie to us?


Lastly, we see that you are, just as I said, basing your positions on bourgeois sources.because the bbc is not a "bourgeois source"?


Forbes and you agree on a lot, it seems.no. logical fallacies suck and make you look like an idiot. by your own logic (or lack thereof) you are a british social democrat who wants the "free world" to appropriate the efficient methods of the cuban prison system.

in fact while we're at it since you used the bbc as a source you hate the ira and support the colonial occupation....shame on you...


You can also search this site and see the discussions in which it was proven beyond any doubt that Fidel does not live in unreasonable conditions. yeah i can search this message board all day looking for bad arguments made in the past...you're bothing to argue with me right now, stop being lazy and make real arguments.


The luxuries there are mostly for younger visitors, such as children who want to play sports (basketball, tennis, etc.) while they're at Fidel's residence

just like santa! (or michael jackson, maybe?)


(Fidel's a baseball player, why would he want a basketball court?)who knows, why would bill gates want all the stupid shit he has?


So again, you have nothing except conjecturenot really, you're just refusing to believe my claims regardless of who they come from. the kgb dug up some good dirt on castro back in the day, but i wouldn't want to be accused of "revisionism" on top of "anarchism" and "forbes-ism".


With no centralized police force, you gift counterrevolutionaries advantages, yes.that's operating under the notion that a centralized military force gives you a military advantage over your opponent, a bourgeois myth that has justified leninist skulduggery for decades.

obviously the opposite is true as thousands of years of history has demonstrated.


The point is that Fidel has been the target of numerous assassination attempts, and security is simply a necessity.i guess if a bunch of people want to kill you, it's ok to extort wealth from the masses to pay for your private security...(while, as it's already been established, many of the cuban masses live in decrepid, dilapidated housing, just like in the u.s.)

a bunch of people want to kill the pope too, but the pope's also a wealthy bureaucrat. castro, obama, and the pope could all run off to a desert island and never interact with anyone again. but then again that would mean no more sports cars....


Since you don't understand the situationi don't understand why you think castro needs a private basketball court, i don't understand why you believe castro when he says he only earns 900 pesos a month, i don't understand why you deny castro lives in a mansion when we live in an era of satellite imagery. why not just plunge into the deep end you're precariously posed on, and start writing treatesis proving the moon landing was faked?


though, you would ignore this like the Castrophobei am ignoring your lame excuse that castro needs to tax his subjects and maintain a police force for his "personal security". there are plenty of threats to my "personal security", or the "personal security" of any other worker, and we don't have any other fucking way to deal with it besides as it comes...hell, try being a working-class black woman in any major u.s. city. i'm sure they could use a little bit of compassionate castro's private security resources. (afterall, you call upon us to defend the cuban revolution, what have fidel and raul done to promote revolution in the u.s.? nothing, that's what)


you want to ignore class dynamicspot. kettle. when presented with the unavoidable fact that your personal hero earns millions, you can only shrug and try to fudge the truth to slip out of the dillema. you claim forbes (who i in no way deny are repugnant capitalists) admitted their sources on castro were bogus. they did no such thing. you claimed forbes were working under the presumption that castro "controlled all industry" in cuba. they did no such thing.

as shitty as forbes is, they have the facts at least partly on their side what about benigno? jesus marzo fernandez? manuel de beunza? delfin fernandez? dominigo amuchategui? all of these men broke bread with castro, enjoyed the privilige they earned from the cuban political system, then stabbed castro in the back by defecting to other capitalist states...you're in a catch 22. either these men are oppertunistic liars - in which case, cuba is governed by oppertunistic liars - or they're telling the truth. if they are liars, did they all get together in a secret cabal under the headquarters of the freemasons and come up with the grand lie together? why would so many self-serving, back-stabbing bureaucrats invent the same reality? as loathesome individuals as they are, if they were all lying, there would be no consistancy to their lie. as it happens, they may be partly lying, (as forbes partly lies when they say castro is richer than queen elizabeth) yet you yourself are swallowing the lie of castro as an ascetic.

[manic expression]

save the drama for macbeth...

It's not fiction when it's 100% true. Now, following what I said before in that your arguments are anti-Cuban garbage not worth anyone's time, I'll get right to the point and ignore the majority of your immature one-liners. This is how adults argue, so get a notebook and pay attention.


if the sources are as poor as you claim, you could easily refute them. you're committing the logical fallacy of ad hominem (specifically appeal to ridicule) rather than addressing the claims of your opponents. this either shows you are desperate to win the argument, or conversely, you are a consistently terrible debater. (as an aside, you linked to a PSL article as evidence. Are you yourself any more of a free thinker?)I took the liberty of looking at your sources, and they're simply pathetic. Since you're too lazy to link to it yourself:

http://libcom.org/library/cuba-socialist-paradise-castro-fiefdom-wsm

The only valid citations it has are from the 60's, the statistics have no reference. Further, it's just a bad article that fails to prove anything at all:

But the cost of these benefits is high for the working class who have never been in the saddle of power in Cuba. This is not their role as the doting Father looks after their interests. While the figures about literacy and health are good there are a number of statistics which aren't so impressive. One Cuban in every 340 is in prison. There are 400 political prisoners. Around 50% of the Cuban male population are known to the police or have criminal records. The Cuban police force regularly carry revolvers, tear gas and electric truncheons. The crime rate itself is very low, so the equipment of the police and the jail population would seem to indicate a state that is repressive in it's dealings with the people.

This is hopelessly naive, the markings of an author who understands neither socialism nor reality. First, prisons are not against socialism, and in fact revolutionary societies will need prisons one way or another. Second, the political prisoners in Cuba are counterrevolutionary subversives, most of whom had well-documented ties to terrorist organizations:

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1A1-D90PH97G1.html (from the AP)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24698655/

There's more, but even you should get the point, which is that those "political prisoners" are pro-imperialist subversives who took money with the express intention of toppling the revolutionary government of Cuba. Anti-Cuban imperialists whine and moan about human rights, but the fact is that dissident voices are tolerated unless they take money from foreign sources in order to destabilize the Cuban Revolution. Why do you ignore this in favor of an idealistic view of those "political prisoners"? Why do you parrot the talking points of American imperialists? Why are you backing up Miami-based terrorists? These are all questions that anti-Cuban, counterrevolutionary mouthpieces like Jethro Tull will dodge and duck, because it exposes their true position as enemies of the Cuban working class and enemies of progress.

Further, the article NEVER shows us why the Cuban working class isn't in power. It just states it again and again as if repeating something made it true (something that's rubbed off on you, apparently). The article just says Castro wasn't always a communist, which means nothing because no revolutionary is born a Marxist, and many revolutionaries become Marxists through struggles against the bourgeoisie. How many Communards were self-proclaimed Marxists? Exactly. In addition, "nationalism" and Marxism are not necessarily contradictory, and in this case they support one another. Marx clearly stated that the workers must constitute themselves (wait for it) the nation; nations are concrete realities that have consistent definitions. So Fidel wasn't always a self-proclaimed Marxist and the Cuban revolutionaries are proud of their nation...what is this supposed to prove? All of this, however, is lost on the ultra-leftist Castrophobes, who rely on anti-Cuban slander in order to support their childish imaginations.

Lastly, the article cites professionals (such as scientists and academics) as proof of capitalism in Cuba. This is idiotic. Not only are these professions needed in socialism, they are necessary to its prosperity. As for their privileges, try to find something from Marx that says all wages have to be the same under the dictatorship of the proletariat. Doctors, for instance, need certain "privileges" (communication devices, etc.) to carry out their duties. As if that wasn't enough, doctors usually work long hours. This is again a naive point that proves nothing, and is based on a complete misunderstanding of what revolution means.

Mind you, none of the stats in the article are properly referenced anyway, the author is essentially talking straight out of his/her ass, much like the ignorant poster who thought the link proved something.

And after all this, the article cannot explain away what's shown in the multiple links I've posted (all from diverse sources): Cuban workers directly control their society through working-class democracy, tolerance of dissenting political voices is the norm, the Cuban economy is powered by the collective efforts of the Cuban workers to improve their society. All of these things have been proven beyond any doubt, and it's quite telling that no one's been able to effectively question the links I've posted or the conclusions made from them. The counterrevolutionaries on this thread won't do that, however, because they can't do that.

[Plagueround]

Regardless of what you think of Columbus, industrialization is progressive, and if you think differently, I suggest going back to your cave, it suits you.


While I am far from a primitivist, the idea that all industrialization is inherently progressive largely ignores the many people that have been murdered, displaced, and left in poverty because industrialization has brought about changes too drastic for them to adapt to, nor does that line of thought take into account the environmental contamination or destruction that can have a similarly negative impact on the populations it affects. Industrialization has also had tremendously positive effects across the world that are undeniable, but one must consider exactly what is being industrialized and for what purpose, as well as the long term impact of that industrialization...and not for any sort of imaginary concept of "harming mother earth", but the very real loss of wildlife, vegetation, drinking water, and inhabitable land that threatens these populations.

[pranabjyoti]

I have repeatedly heard of pharases about Cuba and other progressive countries like "lack of freedom of press", "lack of freedom of expression" etc. As far as I know, those who deny the principle of "class dictatorship" in a class divided society can not call themselves Marxist at least. The only democracy I know is a class less society, FULL COMMUNISM. Until and unless there is division of labour, class should exist and with that class oppression too. When the proletariat will be in power, a class less wouldn't be established at that very moment. The proletariat have to abolish other classes and the class based society itself. Until and unless, there should be oppression, the reactionary force and the allies of imperialism should be oppressed and suppressed in dictatorhsip of the porletariat. What they too have done while they were in power. Until and unless a class less society would be establshed, there should be suppression and oppression. No MARXIST CAN DENY THAT, IF HE/SHE IS REALLY A MARXIST.
What the matter of so much hue and cry about hunger in Cuba. Cuba is still under attack from the world imperialist forces and actually the imperialist forces have to blamed for presence of hunger in Cuba. My question to the "free press(!)" and its advocates that will they show similar interest to a hungry man/woman of any other third world country. Hunger has its presence all over the world.
What is more surprising is the attitude of some "leftists(!)" regarding this matter. At present, what we can expect is dictatorship of proletariat as the first stage of socialism, that means Cuba should have a class based societyi in it. And in a class based society, you can not avoid suppression and oppression of the classes other than the ruling class. Actually by demanding "freedom of press (where does it exist in the world)", "freedom of expression" like BS and vomitting the same imperialist pharases, you are NOT serving the proletariat and world revoluton at all.

[Jethro Tull]

It's not fiction when it's 100% true.

i didn't mention fiction. i mentioned drama.


Now, following what I said before in that your arguments are anti-Cuban garbage not worth anyone's timeyet here you are, continuing to engage me...i guess i'm worth somebody's time...


I'll get right to the point and ignore the majority of your immature one-liners. This is how adults argue, so get a notebook and pay attention.ah, words of maturity and adulthood from someone childish and immature enough to believe that the workers control the cuban state...


I took the liberty of looking at your sources, and they're simply pathetic. Since you're too lazy to link to it yourself:now i'm not only "immature" but "lazy" because i don't format my posts in the same way you do? you are really grasping for straws here in this argument....

(it has nothing to do with "laziness", i'm a new poster, i can't c+p urls yet. now who's being immature?)


The only valid citations it has are from the 60's, the statistics have no reference.if cuba was shitty in the 60s, it's even shittier now, thanks to market liberalization, tourism industry expansion, etc.

judging an article based by the number or age of citations is the fatuous behavior of an insect-minded, pedantic intelligentsia. try using your own sources to rebuke the article's claims, (as opposed to just saying "CLICK THE TWO OR THREE LINKS I POSTED FIVE PAGES BACK") if you want this argument to go anywhere....


First, prisons are not against socialism, and in fact revolutionary societies will need prisons one way or another.i am not interested in the "socialism" and "revolutionary society" you are selling. prisons are a product of capitalist slavery, in order for the conditions of communism to flourish, prisons must be destroyed. all societies need to be able to punish and reprimand certain individuals but prisons are one of the most inefficient, ineffective, and dangerous ways to do that. your "socialism" is identical to capitalism.


Second, the political prisoners in Cuba are counterrevolutionary subversivesthe majority of prisoners, in cuba, or in any other state, are not "political prisoners" in the sense of being imprisoned for political activism. do you honestly think that 50% of the male population in cuba are "counterrevolutionary subversives" being paid off by uncle sam? (i thought the cuban state and the cuban workers were one and the same!)


There's more, but even you should get the point, which is that those "political prisoners" are pro-imperialist subversivesyou could say the same thing about the cpusa...

funny to see a "radical leftist" denounce someone for being a "subversive"


Anti-Cuban imperialists whine and moan about human rightsi don't. "human rights" is a bourgeois mantra...


but the fact is that dissident voices are toleratedas they are in the u.s. and other advanced capitalist states, hence why this message board hasn't been shut down.


Why do you ignore this in favor of an idealistic view of those "political prisoners"?i haven't mentioned any political prisoners other than the drunk man...i personally was specifically concerned with the incarceration of a female robber (from the link you provided, which, yes, i read) - the fact that armed robbery, and the imprisonment of armed robbers, is prevailant in cuba illustrates that cuba is a capitalist state.


Why do you parrot the talking points of American imperialists?as i've mentioned before many american imperialists want to get in bed with the cuban state and vise versa. as i've also mentioned before, the cold war is over.


Why are you backing up Miami-based terrorists?i'm not "backing up miami-based terrorists", i'm strongly opposed to all right-wingers, regardless of what city they're based in. however, i don't think every cuban who happened to immigrate to the u.s. over the course of the last 50 years is an intrinsically right-wing sub-human asshole.


anti-Cuban, counterrevolutionary mouthpieces like Jethro Tullquoted out of context for the lulz....


Further, the article NEVER shows us why the Cuban working class isn't in power.you've never shown us why the working-class is in power in cuba. the burden of proof is on the one making the positive assertion.

yes, the cuban workers get to vote. yes, the cuban workers have free healthcare and education. yes, the cuban prisons are less harsh than others. how does this make cuba any different than sweden? are "the workers in control" in sweden?

in order for workers to be in control, they need to control their own means of production. end of story.


In addition, "nationalism" and Marxism are not necessarily contradictorycommunism and state-socialism are, however.


Marx clearly stated that the workers must constitute themselves (wait for it) the nation; nations are concrete realities that have consistent definitions.agreed, however, the cuban state does not represent the interests of any nation because the cuban state is capitalist.


Lastly, the article cites professionals (such as scientists and academics) as proof of capitalism in Cuba. This is idiotic. Not only are these professions needed in socialism, they are necessary to its prosperity.so societies that didn't have an intelligentsia class weren't "prosperous"? more "socialist" tacit racist-imperialism...


As for their privileges, try to find something from Marx that says all wages have to be the same under the dictatorship of the proletariat.uhhh...the point of the dictatorship of the proletariat is the abolition of wage


Doctors, for instance, need certain "privileges" (communication devices, etc.) to carry out their duties.not true. even if it were, that would not justify additional wage discrepencies.


As if that wasn't enough, doctors usually work long hours.so does everyone.


Cuban workers directly control their society through working-class democracy, tolerance of dissenting political voices is the norm, the Cuban economy is powered by the collective efforts of the Cuban workers to improve their society."hare krishna hare krishna hare hare"


All of these things have been proven beyond any doubtthey have?

also you didn't address the second article i recommended which documented the brutal suppression of the genuine communist / anarchist movement .... (the vanguard of the cuban revolution) oh, i forgot, those people are all "counterrevolutionaries".

[proudcomrade]

"Pánfilo" got the sentence he did as a deterrent, as has already been stated earlier in the thread. What cannot be emphasized nearly strongly enough, is the lengths to which the US embargo and the Miami exile fanatics have been continuously jamming the island's every last attempt to create an effective planned system designed to lead them to an eventual state of communism. They cannot afford to let their own citizens start down the path of public drunkenness and anti-revolution behavior that could end up causing rioting or worse, particularly during a period of food and sanitation shortage, the embargo forcing them to sell off their desperately-needed fish, beef and cane resources as exports while simultaneously starving them of imports and medical supplies. Meanwhile, as far as the threat coming from Miami, it has not been isolated incidents, but a steady stream of attacks damaging the revolution at every turn for the past fifty years, from Girón to the despicable "Operation Pedro Pan" kidnapping and relocating countless children to the United States against their families' will, to the Brothers to the Rescue fracas, to the Elián Gonzalez kidnapping and FBI raid, to the Mariel incident, to the endless litany of assassination attempts against the leader of the revolution, close to 700 acknowledged, reported ones, and who knows how many more "under the table"? They have forced the country to wreck its promising agropecuarial sustenance just to survive what was supposed to be the interim period before attainment of full socialism, leaving the only option for survival possible, that of the tourism industry; and with it began the arrival of dollars, euros, unstable pesos convertibles, pickpocketing, ten-year-old jineteras and the pasty blue-eyed sex tourists who love them. Meanwhile, a popular musician tries to share a little bit of art and recreation with the people, and the Miami Mafia goes postal and starts throwing their equivalent of the Glenn Beck tea-party on the streets of Calle Ocho until the whole thing becomes another international press scandal marring Cuba even further among the neoliberals and their ilk.

How can you possibly continue to blame the victim here? This is not a failed state because of poor planning, nor of poor understanding of Marxist theory. This is a revolutionary state under relentless siege from an empire, and that empire is successfully ruining its every attempt to realize a workers' state. Hypocritical old Europe is exploiting the place like one big floating underage brothel. Giant China gives less than fractions of the internationalist aid that the USSR had been supplying. All the while, the neolibbie-owned UN sits on its fat collective ass and watches the show. How much more blatant does it have to be before you'll believe it? The whole world is pouring kerosene all over Cuba and then accusing the revolution of arson.

[manic expression]

i didn't mention fiction. i mentioned drama.

Drama is fiction. Drama is acting.


yet here you are, continuing to engage me...i guess i'm worth somebody's time...It's fun to run circles around ultra-left Castrophobes.


ah, words of maturity and adulthood from someone childish and immature enough to believe that the workers control the cuban state...Again, you don't know how to argue like an adult. Are you taking notes?

now i'm not only "immature" but "lazy" because i don't format my posts in the same way you do? you are really grasping for straws here in this argument....


(it has nothing to do with "laziness", i'm a new poster, i can't c+p urls yet. now who's being immature?)The hyperlink button is just above the text box, in the middle.

And you are intellectually lazy, just like the article you posted.


if cuba was shitty in the 60s, it's even shittier now, thanks to market liberalization, tourism industry expansion, etc.:lol: You're so clueless. Cuba has improved its healthcare, arts, housing, economic diversification, electoral process and more since the 60's. Obviously, you don't know anything about Cuban history.

And please cite market liberalization, big guy. Tourism is not anti-socialist, we should be promoting international travel.


judging an article based by the number or age of citations is the fatuous behavior of an insect-minded, pedantic intelligentsia. try using your own sources to rebuke the article's claims, (as opposed to just saying "CLICK THE TWO OR THREE LINKS I POSTED FIVE PAGES BACK") if you want this argument to go anywhere....:lol:

Your article sucks, it's utterly unreliable, it's the product of an intellectually lazy and politically bankrupt ultra-left fool. And what do you say in response? That I'm insect-minded because I pointed out how worthless the citations are. You could write an article saying that Fidel eats babies for breakfast and dinner, and you would have about as many relevant citations as the article you posted. :lol:

So really, your article is completely debunked, and you're throwing a temper tantrum.

By the way, if you read the links I posted, you'd be able to educate yourself.


i am not interested in the "socialism" and "revolutionary society" you are selling.That's because you're nothing but a confused liberal: prisons are needed in socialism, where in the world are the workers to put enemies of the revolution? That's right: prisons. You don't know what socialism means.


the majority of prisoners, in cuba, or in any other state, are not "political prisoners" in the sense of being imprisoned for political activism. do you honestly think that 50% of the male population in cuba are "counterrevolutionary subversives" being paid off by uncle sam? (i thought the cuban state and the cuban workers were one and the same!)"Being known to the police" (which is what the article actually said, if you were paying attention) is not the same as being classified as criminals.

Further, is there any citation for this claim? Can we verify this from a reliable source? No, we can't, it's just an anarchist idiot talking out of his/her a**. You've learned much.


funny to see a "radical leftist" denounce someone for being a "subversive"Communists are subversive against capitalism, capitalists are subversive against socialism. This is leftism 101, and you obviously don't know what the hell you're talking about.


i don't. "human rights" is a bourgeois mantra...So is "democracy". Socialism is still more democratic than anything the bourgeoisie has ever created.

Didn't think that one out too well, did ya?


as they are in the u.s. and other advanced capitalist states, hence why this message board hasn't been shut down.Hence why the Black Panthers and Young Lords and 1940's CP, actual threats to capitalism were left alone and allowed to speak their minds.

Oh, wait. :rolleyes:

Try cracking open a history book now and again, big guy.


i haven't mentioned any political prisoners other than the drunk man...i personally was specifically concerned with the incarceration of a female robber (from the link you provided, which, yes, i read) - the fact that armed robbery, and the imprisonment of armed robbers, is prevailant in cuba illustrates that cuba is a capitalist state.:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Yes, people should be allowed to take whatever they want, for themselves, without any consequences! That's dictatorship of the proletariat!

No, actually, it's rank libertarian individualism; good to see that you're exposing your true ideals. :lol:


as i've mentioned before many american imperialists want to get in bed with the cuban state and vise versa. as i've also mentioned before, the cold war is over.They don't want to get in bed with Cuba, they want to trade with Cuba. Are you saying workers, upon seizing power, shouldn't trade with rest of the world?


i'm not "backing up miami-based terrorists",You might not want to, but you're parroting the rhetoric of the gusanos in Miami. Your points which attempt to paint Cuba as non-socialist are precisely the points being made by Miami-based terrorists, and if you knew the first thing about Cuba, you'd know that. But you don't, because you're clueless.


however, i don't think every cuban who happened to immigrate to the u.s. over the course of the last 50 years is an intrinsically right-wing sub-human asshole.Maybe not every Cuban, but a whole lot of them. They're called gusanos by Cuban workers for a very good reason. Try going to Miami and saying you support socialism in a gusano area, see what kind of reaction you get. Have fun!


quoted out of context for the lulz....:lol::lol:That's exactly what you've been doing EVERY POST YOU'VE MADE.


you've never shown us why the working-class is in power in cuba. the burden of proof is on the one making the positive assertion.I already posted multiple links that show the Cuban workers control the state through working-class democracy. Since you're being lazy, again:

http://www.cubasolidarity.com/aboutcuba/topics/government/0504elecsys.htm

http://www.cubasolidarity.org.tt/?q=node/22

http://www.quaylargo.com/Productions/McCelvey.html

And just for good measure:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0968508405/ref=s9_simz_gw_s2_p14_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=1BGH590JJR4HWTP9YXT3&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846

So what were you saying?


yes, the cuban workers get to vote. yes, the cuban workers have free healthcare and education. yes, the cuban prisons are less harsh than others. how does this make cuba any different than sweden? are "the workers in control" in sweden?See above links. Try to find a Nordic capitalist country that has a similar electoral system, that has a similar relationship between political party and public.


agreed, however, the cuban state does not represent the interests of any nation because the cuban state is capitalist.Why, 'cause a crappy libcom article told you so? :lol: Try proving your slander, k?


so societies that didn't have an intelligentsia class weren't "prosperous"? more "socialist" tacit racist-imperialism... Yeah, doctors are stupid! They don't bring anything to society...other than modern science and healthcare. :rolleyes: More primitivism?


not true. even if it were, that would not justify additional wage discrepencies.It is true, doctors need improved communication so they can get to hospitals to help patients as soon as possible. You don't see doctors walking around with two cups and a string, do you? It's part of the job, just like a car is part of being a taxi driver.


so does everyone.Not in Cuba they don't.


they have?

also you didn't address the second article i recommended which documented the brutal suppression of the genuine communist / anarchist movement .... (the vanguard of the cuban revolution) oh, i forgot, those people are all "counterrevolutionaries".Yeah, well they are counterrevolutionaries, but the point is that since your first article was complete garbage, we should concentrate on establishing this and then going to your next piece of counterrevolutionary slander. If you want to get your other source destroyed just as badly, link it.

And yes, if it has been proven. Thanks.

[Jethro Tull]

Drama is fiction. Drama is acting.whatever. i meant drama in the sense of being maudlin and overwrought. (eg: referring to message board enemies as "counter-revolutionaries")


It's fun to run circles around ultra-left Castrophobes.in other words you're not actually interested in contrasting and comparing perspectives, considering the outlooks of others, etc. you're just interested in mockery and abuse...


The hyperlink button is just above the text box, in the middle.yes, and if i include any hyperlinks in my post, a message pops up that says


To be able to post links or images your post count must be 25 or greater. You currently have 22 posts.it seems you know as much about how this message board operates as you do about cuba. yet despite your lack of knowlege, you continue to insist upon your own expertise, dogmatically berating those whose perception of the issue is different than your own.


And you are intellectually lazymaybe, this is a message board, i'm not trying to write das kapital...


Cuba has improved its healthcareand the quality of healthcare has improved in france, germany, etc. since the 60s...


artswho the fuck cares?


housingthe housing crisis in cuba is getting worse...("cuba's housing crisis", bbc news 01/02/09)


economic diversificationin other words, market liberalization and tourism-industry development. how is this a good thing from the perspective of the proletariat?

just out of curiousity do you think deng xiaoping's p.r.c was also a "worker's democracy"?


and please cite market liberalization, big guy."big guy"...that's a new one

"cuba to abandon salary equality", bbc news, 06/12/08


Tourism is not anti-socialist, we should be promoting international travel.

the existence of tourism under "socialism" is evidence of "socialism" as a mode of capitalist control. "tourism" is more than "international travel", it is a specific form of international travel packaged as a commodity under the capitalist mode of production - intrinsic to tourism is ecological degradation and the disruption of local communities. tourism is a manufactured need that illustrates the alienation the individual from the community and land-base, an alienation that prevails in industrial capitalism


ultra-left foolmore asinine ad hominems. and i'm the one who argues immaturely.

what do you even mean by "ultra-left"? are you angry that there are others who follow the premises of leftism (whatever "leftism" means) to their logical conclusons, unlike yourself?

i do not consider myself "ultra-left" - i consider myself communist.


That I'm insect-minded because I pointed out how worthless the citations are.the quality of a literary or historical source is not primarily dependent upon the quantity or age of its citations, to suggest otherwise is laputan nonsense.


You could write an article saying that Fidel eats babies for breakfast and dinner, and you would have about as many relevant citations as the article you posted.so far there are no literary references to fidel castro eating babies, so i have to disagree...


So really, your article is completely debunkedno it isn't. you just complained about how the citations were "old". (typical mtv generation behavior) you haven't addressed or rebuked any claims whatsoever. might as well be *****ing about how ward churchill committed "academic fraud" by messing up his footnotes.


if you read the links I postedas i've stated, i already have...do you actually read your opponents' arguments?


That's because you're nothing but a confused liberaluh...ok..your scattershot approach to sophistic ad hominem arguments is really bewildering but also kind of amusing...so now i'm apparently an ultra-left anarchist liberal forbes-ite.


prisons are needed in socialism, where in the world are the workers to put enemies of the revolution?how about they just exile or kill them? i definitely don't want a portion of my personal resources to pay for food, shelter, etc. of an "enemy of the revolution"...


"Being known to the police" (which is what the article actually said, if you were paying attention) is not the same as being classified as criminals.regardless it indicates that the law enforcement aparatus continues to monitor and survey the public. or are concerns of personal privacy also bourgeois?


Further, is there any citation for this claim?i'm not sure, and i don't really care enough to argue this specific point any further. in fact, i'll concede it to you, if that makes you feel better.

however, human rights watch wrote a piece in 1999 on the cuban state's prison-industry. it mentions the expansion of the maximum-security havana valle grande prison "to hold the increasing numbers of women accused of prostitution." (why are women prostituting themself in a society that's "worker-controlled", much less why is the state imprisoning them? oh yeah, that's right, prostitutes aren't real workers, they're lumpen scum) the article also documents instances of sexual abuse within the couban prison system. ("counterrevolutionary" or not, no one deserves to be raped by prison-guards) they also report that most cuban prisoners suffer from malnutrition. one prisoner's "daily food ration would fit into one small cup", another "typically received a cup of water with some sugar" for breakfast. also, "one former prisoner recalled that the toilet near his cell drained into the corridor and onto his cell floor." "Overcrowding in some facilities requires prisoners to sleep on the floor until other prisoners leave. Mattresses and sheets are rare. Prisoners with mattresses described them as rough sacks stuffed with leaves that were infested with biting insects." "Former detainees in women's prisons said that sexual relations between male guards and female prisoners were not uncommon. One prisoner recalled that when ranking prison authorities became aware of several of these relationships, they punished the prisoners, rather than the guards." these all come from first-hand interviews with cuban prisoners. amnesty international also had a damning report of the cuban prison system in 2005.

is it worse than the u.s. prison system? probably not. is it better? maybe. is it desirable? fuck no. is it an example of worker's control? jesus christ no.


Communists are subversive against capitalism, capitalists are subversive against socialism.communists are subversive against both capitalism and "socialism". (in this context, "capitalism" and "socialism" are redundant since vitually all the qualities you ascribe to "socialism" exist to some degree in all advanced capitalist states)


So is 'democracy'yet you're the one constantly using the word to defend the cuban state


Socialism is still more democratic than anything the bourgeoisie has ever created.democratic socialism is a creation of the bourgeoisie.


Didn't think that one out too well, did ya?i'm confused. i haven't mentioned the word "democracy", other than to point out that democracy is not communism but rather a form of capitalist rule. you're the one who has used what you have admitted is a "bourgeois mantra" in defending bourgeois class-rule in cuba.


Hence why the Black Panthers and Young Lords and 1940's CP, actual threats to capitalism were left alone and allowed to speak their minds.more lewis carroll logic.

you say, in essence "the cuban state allows expression of dissent as long as it's not a threat to the stability of the cuban state"
i say "the same is true of the u.s., hence the legality of this message board"
you say "that's not true. the u.s. crushed the panthers and young lords, who went beyond expression of dissent and were acctively engaged in organizing an armed opposition to the u.s. state", as if that's somehow comparable to two idiots *****ing on a message board."

and yes, the most part, the u.s. mostly left the cpusa bureaucrats alone, despite white leftist mythology. i reccomend you read j. sakai's analysis of the situation ('settlers: the mythology of the white proletariat')


Yes, people should be allowed to take whatever they want, for themselves, without any consequences!obviously not. but who is this woman and who did she rob? and why? what were her motivations if not economic necessity? do you really think she's spending eight years in jail for stealing her sister's diary?

where did the wealth she stole come from? how did the other person get it? why not support the u.s. prison system if you support this sort of thing?

capitalism is robbery, including cuban "state" capitalism. (a left-communist misnomer considering all capitalism is "state" capitalism) the vast majority of robberies in modern society are a DIRECT product of conditions of material inequality, do you think cuba is any different? can't you see how, through some twist of fate, you could be composing the same arguments in defense of any other capitalist society, such as the u.s. or germany?


No, actually, it's rank libertarian individualisma compliment coming from a rank totalitarian collectivist!


Are you saying workers, upon seizing power, shouldn't trade with rest of the world?the point of communism is to abolish the economy, not participate in it. i can see why your brand of "communism" would be popular, you don't have to change anything.


You might not want to, but you're parroting the rhetoric of the gusanos in Miami.i don't think very many "gusanos in miami" want to abolish the prison system, wage, etc.


Maybe not every Cuban, but a whole lot of them. They're called gusanos by Cuban workers for a very good reason.again, you're assuming that just because workers do something, that makes it morally good. (in other words, you are a pseudo-marxist) many workers shoot up heroin, snort cocaine, get drunk, beat their spouses and children, seek employment in the police and military, are racist, sexist, and homophobic towards their fellow workers, etc. the motivations for resentment among the cuban masses towards professional immigrants to the southeastern u.s. is obvious, and perfectly understandable, however many cuban immigrants in the u.s. find themselves in situations of poverty, imprisonment, homelessness, racial discrimination, etc. i've met pleny of "gusanos" who are marxist-leninists and anarchsts. i hate to break it to you, but if you go to ANY neighborhood in the us and claim you are an advocate of "socialism", (whatever that means) the reaction will basically be the same, ie: negative. the fact that you sincerely agree with my facetious statement that gusanos are "subhuman" proves that you are an unscientific moralist.


I already posted multiple links that show the Cuban workers control the state through working-class democracy. Since you're being lazy, again:and i've already made my point in this regards. democratic participation, no matter how refined, is not the same as worker's control. in order for workers to be in control, they have to control their means of production. have you actually studied marx or do you just think his beard looks cool?


Try to find a Nordic capitalist country that has a similar electoral system, that has a similar relationship between political party and public.numerous similarities can be drawn between the swedish and cuban democratic systems, i suggest you do more research on the former. the cuban mode of democratic control is novel and unique, but not as much as you get it credit for.


why, 'cause a crappy libcom article told you so?i obviously wasn't using that single individual article as the sole basis of my opinion on the issue, i just found it quickly on google and liked the rhetorical style and a lot of the points that it made. (upon further reflection i must point out that i disagree with many of its points, such as those regarding nationalism and the character of the cuban revolution)


Yeah, doctors are stupid! They don't bring anything to societyin the u.s., doctors are, for the most part, labor aristocrats that serve as mediators between the general public and the pharmaceutical industry. the only difference in cuba is that the pharmaceuticals are free, and the industry's controlled by the centralized state. i didn't say anyone was "stupid", however we don't need the capitalist medical infrastructure to practice medicine.


It is true, doctors need improved communication so they can get to hospitals to help patients as soon as possible.hospitals are not necessary for practicing medicine, they will not exist under communism. (for the most part)


You don't see doctors walking around with two cups and a string, do you? It's part of the job, just like a car is part of being a taxi driver.anyway, this argument is really stupid. if that was the sole issue, the state would just pay for the doctors' communication devices and give them the same wage as everyone else. again, this inadequately justifies additional wage discrepancies...


Not in Cuba they don't.are you writing from your personal experiences as a wage-laborer in cuba?


Yeah, well they are counterrevolutionariesyes, anyone who actually wants to create the conditions of communism, as opposed to using "communism" as a carrot to dangle on the end of a stick, is a "counterrevolutionary"


If you want to get your other source destroyed just as badly, link it.if what you did to the first source was a "destruction" than the anarchists in pittsburgh have "destroyed" the g-20. i can't make links, you didn't seem to have a problem finding the first article on your own. i think you will also enjoy "destroying" dolgoff's the cuban revolution: a critical perspective and fernandez' cuban anarchism: a history of a movement, both of which are available on the internets for free. if you're really going to judge my position based on a single source, let it be one of those two

[proudcomrade]

A bunch of BBC links hardly qualifies as plausible support for your arguments. Do you suppose that the BBC is, or ever has been, a friend of the revolution? Come on.

[Farther Lee]

This sight is looking more and more like a dialog between smart duplicitous (lying) CIA/ MI5/6 agents etc, and the unavoidably naive but revolutionary youth who are correctly looking for leadership.
Advice: Just read the original authors- then apply the best of it to your own situation. Always be suspicious of anything other than your own best leadership.

[Revy]

This sight is looking more and more like a dialog between smart duplicitous (lying) CIA/ MI5/6 agents etc, and the unavoidably naive but revolutionary youth who are correctly looking for leadership.
Advice: Just read the original authors- then apply the best of it to your own situation. Always be suspicious of anything other than your own best leadership.

First, it's spelled "site".
Now, quit it with the paranoia and the ageism. Just because someone doesn't want to lock someone up for being drunk and hungry doesn't mean they are being paid by the CIA.

Also, naivete is not limited to "youth" nor are young people there only to be "led".

[manic expression]

whatever. i meant drama in the sense of being maudlin and overwrought. (eg: referring to message board enemies as "counter-revolutionaries")

I can't help it if you're opposing the Cuban Revolution, now can I?


in other words you're not actually interested in contrasting and comparing perspectives, considering the outlooks of others, etc. you're just interested in mockery and abuse...

I've been the only one actually analyzing sources and perspectives. I dedicated a lengthy post to one of your woeful articles, while you've posted one-liners.


and the quality of healthcare has improved in france, germany, etc. since the 60s...

Through the direct control of the working class? That's new to me.


who the fuck cares?

Workers who like ballet. Ballet is very popular in Cuba, so Cuban workers care.


the housing crisis in cuba is getting worse...("cuba's housing crisis", bbc news 01/02/09)

Even if that is true, the government is taking steps to alleviate these problems. And I'd hardly call it a crisis if practically everyone has a roof over their head.


in other words, market liberalization and tourism-industry development. how is this a good thing from the perspective of the proletariat?

Please cite liberalization.

Tourism does not go against socialism.

Nice try.


just out of curiousity do you think deng xiaoping's p.r.c was also a "worker's democracy"?

Very complicated question, but no.


"cuba to abandon salary equality", bbc news, 06/12/08

I never said Cuban salaries were completely equal, and in fact I explained why it's reasonable that they aren't.

Do you even try to read my posts or are you too busy being lazy again?


the existence of tourism under "socialism" is evidence of "socialism" as a mode of capitalist control. "tourism" is more than "international travel", it is a specific form of international travel packaged as a commodity under the capitalist mode of production - intrinsic to tourism is ecological degradation and the disruption of local communities. tourism is a manufactured need that illustrates the alienation the individual from the community and land-base, an alienation that prevails in industrial capitalism

Have fun proving that tourism in Cuba disrupts local communities.

And after all those buzzwords, the fact is that the Cuban workers control the revenue from tourism, and have chosen to allow non-Cubans to see their country. For this, you criticize them.


what do you even mean by "ultra-left"? are you angry that there are others who follow the premises of leftism (whatever "leftism" means) to their logical conclusons, unlike yourself?

See Lenin's writings.


i do not consider myself "ultra-left" - i consider myself communist.

That's nice.


the quality of a literary or historical source is not primarily dependent upon the quantity or age of its citations, to suggest otherwise is laputan nonsense.

Not all the time, but when an article states statistics and doesn't even try to back them up, that's just pathetic. Further, I addressed the article's arguments on their own merits, and predictably they were easy to debunk.


so far there are no literary references to fidel castro eating babies, so i have to disagree...

Which is the exact same amount of valid citations made by your article. Funny that.


no it isn't. you just complained about how the citations were "old". (typical mtv generation behavior) you haven't addressed or rebuked any claims whatsoever. might as well be *****ing about how ward churchill committed "academic fraud" by messing up his footnotes.

:lol::lol::lol:

I pointed out how the only citations in the article were relevant over 4 decades ago. If you were to write an article, saying that Russia is in the Soviet Union and cite a source from 1967 to prove this, you'd be a hack. Just like the person who thought that sources from the 60's prove arguments and statistics about Cuba in the 90's.


as i've stated, i already have...do you actually read your opponents' arguments?

See my post where I debunked your article. Thanks.


how about they just exile or kill them? i definitely don't want a portion of my personal resources to pay for food, shelter, etc. of an "enemy of the revolution"...

Most Cubans in prison are not enemies of the revolution.

The enemies of the revolution exiled themselves, for the most part. Those that remain are allowed to speak their mind in spite of their counterrevolutionary positions.


regardless it indicates that the law enforcement aparatus continues to monitor and survey the public. or are concerns of personal privacy also bourgeois?

To what extent? Have you shown that x% of Cuban phones are wire-tapped? No, you're just engaging in conjecture.

Further, all law enforcement has to monitor the public to some extent, it's part of the job. The issue is what laws are being enforced, and who writes them; in Cuba the workers decide this.


however, human rights watch wrote a piece in 1999 on the cuban state's prison-industry.

Let me stop you there. HRW has consistently used reactionary exiles as sources in their studies on Cuba, even though it is widely known that they have a vested interest in slandering the revolutionary Cuban government. In fact, I'm somewhat sure they've done very little research beyond this.


these all come from first-hand interviews with cuban prisoners.

You don't think they have a motivation for lying about the government that once imprisoned them?


amnesty international also had a damning report of the cuban prison system in 2005.

They're guilty of the same lack of credibility as HRW.


is it worse than the u.s. prison system? probably not. is it better? maybe. is it desirable? fuck no. is it an example of worker's control? jesus christ no.

Why would you say that, especially in light of the Cuban electoral overviews I posted?


communists are subversive against both capitalism and "socialism". (in this context, "capitalism" and "socialism" are redundant since vitually all the qualities you ascribe to "socialism" exist to some degree in all advanced capitalist states)

Communists want socialism.


yet you're the one constantly using the word to defend the cuban state

That's because it's genuine working-class democracy, not puppet-state "democracy" funded and owned by corporations (which, ironically enough, have no sway in Cuba). That's the difference.

Socialism: actually democratic and humane for workers

Capitalism: hypocritical lies

That's my point.


democratic socialism is a creation of the bourgeoisie.

Socialist democracy is the enemy of the bourgeoisie.


i'm confused. i haven't mentioned the word "democracy", other than to point out that democracy is not communism but rather a form of capitalist rule. you're the one who has used what you have admitted is a "bourgeois mantra" in defending bourgeois class-rule in cuba.

You need to re-read my post, because you misunderstood this point badly.


you say, in essence "the cuban state allows expression of dissent as long as it's not a threat to the stability of the cuban state"
i say "the same is true of the u.s., hence the legality of this message board"
you say "that's not true. the u.s. crushed the panthers and young lords, who went beyond expression of dissent and were acctively engaged in organizing an armed opposition to the u.s. state", as if that's somehow comparable to two idiots *****ing on a message board."

The Panthers and Young Lords were organizing self-defense of their communities from police murder. They were well within their rights as human beings to do so. For this, they were crushed by the capitalist state. That's capitalist oppression for you. In Cuba, this situation does not exist and so the equation is an unequal one. The contrast, really, could not be stronger.


and yes, the most part, the u.s. mostly left the cpusa bureaucrats alone, despite white leftist mythology. i reccomend you read j. sakai's analysis of the situation ('settlers: the mythology of the white proletariat')

Not during the late 40's.


obviously not. but who is this woman and who did she rob? and why? what were her motivations if not economic necessity? do you really think she's spending eight years in jail for stealing her sister's diary?

I'm not going to delve into any hypothetical guessing game. The point is that her opinion of the Cuban prison system goes completely contrary to the excited (and misinformed) condemnations of AI and HRW. This is what the article tells us.


where did the wealth she stole come from? how did the other person get it? why not support the u.s. prison system if you support this sort of thing?

It came from the revolutionary society of Cuba. The other person probably got it through the legal means set out by the Cuban workers. The US prison system is not only racist and brutal, but based on punishment of deprived working-class peoples and nationalities; none of this is the case here, and that much is made more than clear by the article.


capitalism is robbery, including cuban "state" capitalism. (a left-communist misnomer considering all capitalism is "state" capitalism) the vast majority of robberies in modern society are a DIRECT product of conditions of material inequality, do you think cuba is any different? can't you see how, through some twist of fate, you could be composing the same arguments in defense of any other capitalist society, such as the u.s. or germany?

You've failed to support your claims at all. What you're doing is saying "Cuba is capitalist" without even attempting to back this up in any way.

So here we are again; you might as well try that old "Fidel eats babies" argument, because you have the exact same evidence for that as you do for the above statements.


the point of communism is to abolish the economy, not participate in it. i can see why your brand of "communism" would be popular, you don't have to change anything.

More conjecture with no understanding of history.


i don't think very many "gusanos in miami" want to abolish the prison system, wage, etc.

But they agree with your article on the most pertinent points, so your arguments march with theirs in this case.


again, you're assuming that just because workers do something, that makes it morally good. (in other words, you are a pseudo-marxist) many workers shoot up heroin, snort cocaine, get drunk, beat their spouses and children, seek employment in the police and military, are racist, sexist, and homophobic towards their fellow workers, etc.

All examples of anti-working-class behavior. I promote the opposite. And not because of morals, but for the progress of humanity.


the motivations for resentment among the cuban masses towards professional immigrants to the southeastern u.s. is obvious, and perfectly understandable, however many cuban immigrants in the u.s. find themselves in situations of poverty, imprisonment, homelessness, racial discrimination, etc. i've met pleny of "gusanos" who are marxist-leninists and anarchsts. i hate to break it to you, but if you go to ANY neighborhood in the us and claim you are an advocate of "socialism", (whatever that means) the reaction will basically be the same, ie: negative.

I don't remember "The Motorcycle Diaries" being viciously protested and banned from "ANY neighborhood in the us" as it was in Miami. I don't remember "ANY neighborhood in the us" going militant ape-sh*t over a certain little boy whose mother tried to smuggle him into the US.

So no, it's not basically the same, the Cuban exiles in Miami are uniquely anti-socialist and reactionary.


the fact that you sincerely agree with my facetious statement that gusanos are "subhuman" proves that you are an unscientific moralist.

There is room for emotion, you know. I simply understand why the Cuban workers would employ such a term.


and i've already made my point in this regards. democratic participation, no matter how refined, is not the same as worker's control. in order for workers to be in control, they have to control their means of production. have you actually studied marx or do you just think his beard looks cool?

The workers do control the means of production. Read my links for a change.


numerous similarities can be drawn between the swedish and cuban democratic systems, i suggest you do more research on the former. the cuban mode of democratic control is novel and unique, but not as much as you get it credit for.

I suggest you show support for one of your arguments. Just one.


in the u.s., doctors are, for the most part, labor aristocrats that serve as mediators between the general public and the pharmaceutical industry. the only difference in cuba is that the pharmaceuticals are free, and the industry's controlled by the centralized state. i didn't say anyone was "stupid", however we don't need the capitalist medical infrastructure to practice medicine.

Right, we can assuredly have a working-class medical infrastructure. It works in Cuba.


hospitals are not necessary for practicing medicine, they will not exist under communism. (for the most part)

That may be so, but we're not talking about communist society. If you are, then you wandered into the wrong thread.


anyway, this argument is really stupid. if that was the sole issue, the state would just pay for the doctors' communication devices and give them the same wage as everyone else. again, this inadequately justifies additional wage discrepancies...

You're ignoring how doctors work long hours, remember?

Did you know that many doctors in Cuba drive cabs to supplement their income? Just wondering, 'cause it pokes a hole in your vision of the country.


are you writing from your personal experiences as a wage-laborer in cuba?

No, are you?


yes, anyone who actually wants to create the conditions of communism, as opposed to using "communism" as a carrot to dangle on the end of a stick, is a "counterrevolutionary"

I can't help it if you oppose the Cuban Revolution, now can I?


if what you did to the first source was a "destruction" than the anarchists in pittsburgh have "destroyed" the g-20. i can't make links, you didn't seem to have a problem finding the first article on your own. i think you will also enjoy "destroying" dolgoff's the cuban revolution: a critical perspective and fernandez' cuban anarchism: a history of a movement, both of which are available on the internets for free. if you're really going to judge my position based on a single source, let it be one of those two

You should re-read my post on that article, I really did debunk the vast majority of it, because it was garbage.

I'm judging your position based on the positions presented here. If you think that unfair, let me know.

[Jethro Tull]

I can't help it if you're opposing the Cuban Revolution, now can I?

you and i have differing perspectives on the issue. i can't help but feel your failure to recognize this. from your perspective, the cuban revolution was successful, and the subsequent actions, over the past 50+ years, of the cuban state, is the continued and maintained efforts of the revolution. from my perspective, the cuban revolution, while momentarily inspirational, and worth study, did not succeed in creating the conditions of communism.

for me, it's like that marketing cliche - "accept no substitutes". "worker's democracy" may be better than, say, what we have in the u.s. - but it's no substitute for communism, which we can create right now.


Through the direct control of the working class? That's new to me.again, a prolonged lack of understanding of my perspective. if the ruling class allows the workers to vote, that's not control wielded by the working class. if i own a chocolate factory, and give you free chocolate, you do not control how much chocolate you have. end of story.


Workers who like ballet. Ballet is very popular in Cuba, so Cuban workers care.i guess it's impossible to enjoy ballet without the help of a totalitarian police state. i mean, you know how impossible it is to dance without state-subsidization. :D


practically everyone has a roof over their head.agreed, however, the roofs are collapsing on their heads, as i believe i've already established.


Please cite liberalization.are you unaware of the 'reforms' made by the cuban state allowing for increased private ownership and dollar-exchange? i'm willing to dig up citations, but i 'm hesitant to put in the effort, because ican only assume this is willful ignorance


Tourism does not go against socialism.i disagree...


Very complicated question, but no.what the castro brothers have been up to for the past decade is no different...


I never said Cuban salaries were completely equal, and in fact I explained why it's reasonable that they aren't.what i'm interested in is the abolition of salary. accept no substitutes.


Do you even try to read my posts or are you too busy being lazy again?i already pointed out that the abolition of salary is central to marx's premises, a point which you yourself chose to ignore...pot, kettle?


Have fun proving that tourism in Cuba disrupts local communities.in cuba or in general?


And after all those buzzwordswhen i give you short answers, you accuse me of making "immature" "one-liners". when i give you lenghty answers, you accuse me of using "buzzwords". can i win? probably not....


the fact is that the Cuban workers control the revenue from tourismdo you honestly believe that the cuban state takes the revenue it makes from its tourism industry and distributes it equally among the general public?


and have chosen to allow non-Cubans to see their country. For this, you criticize them.let's assume for the second that i assume your premise that the cuban state is controlled by the workers. how is it more ethically justifiable to exploit and degrade the resources of the natural world if it's done by "the workers"...again, you're assigning a moral agency to "the workers" which is not scientific socialism....


See Lenin's writings.yes, yes, 'left-communism - an infantile disorder'. a good read. a good example of how leninism is an infantile disorder.


That's nice.yes, i agree, communism is nice. nicer than totalitarian socialist-democracy.


Not all the time, but when an article states statistics and doesn't even try to back them up, that's just pathetic.huh?


Further, I addressed the article's arguments on their own meritsyou did?


Which is the exact same amount of valid citations made by your article.nah, there were about four or five literary citations in that article, if i recall correctly. then again, i'm not interested in judging literature based on the length of the footnotes section...



:lol::lol::lol:


I pointed out how the only citations in the article were relevant over 4 decades ago.and cuba has become less socialist, less egalitarian, since then...


If you were to write an article, saying that Russia is in the Soviet Union and cite a source from 1967 to prove this, you'd be a hack.unlike russia, there hasn't been a regime change in cuba...your metaphor isn't apt at all.


Just like the person who thought that sources from the 60's prove arguments and statistics about Cuba in the 90's.since, as i've said, cuba has been liberalized since the 60s, establishing that cuba was never a "worker's state", not in the 60s, not ever, helps establish that cuba in the 90s and 00s isn't worth a damn.


Most Cubans in prison are not enemies of the revolution.i'm glad you concede that point. ;)


Those that remain are allowed to speak their mind in spite of their counterrevolutionary positions.yes, and freedom of speech is also guaranteed in the u.s. constitution. it doesn't make the u.s. a free society, by any means.


To what extent? Have you shown that x% of Cuban phones are wire-tapped?are such statistics even available? isn't that in-of-itself an indicator of the cuban state's skullduggery?


all law enforcement has to monitor the public to some extent, it's part of the job.i'm opposed to law enforcement, i don't want that job to be performed. hence, i'm a communist, unlike yourself.


The issue is what laws are being enforced, and who writes them;why do we need laws to enforce a particular social order? "laws" imply a degree of procrusteanism...


in Cuba the workers decide this.the workers don't create legislation, they only vote on it. big fucking deal. let's say the workers voted to outlaw homosexuality...


Let me stop you there. HRW has consistently used reactionary exiles as sources in their studies on Cuba, even though it is widely known that they have a vested interest in slandering the revolutionary Cuban government.can you prove this claim? what's your definition of a "reactionary"? anyone who criticizes the cuban state? it seems that way...

the testimony of a "reactionary" who's actually experienced the cuban prison-system first hand is worth more than, say, someone who has never visited cuba.


You don't think they have a motivation for lying about the government that once imprisoned them? you could say the same thing about prisoners in the u.s., however, if i wanted to learn about u.s. prisons, i still think the best way would be to interview people who have gone to prison in the u.s.


They're guilty of the same lack of credibility as HRW.any sources that criticize the cuban state are not credible in your mind...sort of like christians and the bible :D


Why would you say that, especially in light of the Cuban electoral overviews I posted?because democratic representation is not the same thing as worker's control. worker's control requires individual control over the fruits of one's own labor. democratic representation, no matter how extensive, is a privilige granted to the masses by the capitalist state. in any sort of crisis situation, the cuban state would have the means to retract that privilige.


Communists want socialism.socialism is a form of capitalism. communists want to abolish capitalism. 'socialism' was used generally as an epithit among authentic communists after the disastrous failure of the russian revolution, for legitimate reasons.


That's because it's genuine working-class democracy, not puppet-state "democracy" funded and owned by corporations"the corporations"? now who's the liberal? :laugh:

democracy is shit. it was shit in athens, it was shit in france, it was shit in the u.s., it's shit in cuba. fuck democracy.


Capitalism: hypocritical liesyes, such as the hypocritical lies of those who defend the current capitalist cuban state.


Socialist democracy is the enemy of the bourgeoisie.socialist democracy is the avant-garde of bourgeois control. capitalist control would have collapsed in the u.s. were it not for the new deal. a similar analysis can be made of leninist policies in russia...


You need to re-read my post, because you misunderstood this point badly.that's because your point makes little to no sense....


The Panthers and Young Lords were organizing self-defense of their communities from police murder. They were well within their rights as human beings to do so. For this, they were crushed by the capitalist state. That's capitalist oppression for you.duh. you're preaching to the choir. as you've admitted, the cuban revolution crushes any opposition they view as a legitimate state, while allowing more ineffectual and harmless dissent to operate legally. this is no different than the u.s. or any other advanced capitalist state. allowing dissent to operate legally grants law-enforcement certain tactical advantages. you've obviously fallen into the trap of percieving capitalist tact as altruism.


In Cuba, this situation does not existyes it does. you've admitted that the cuban state liquidates percieved threats to the "revolution".


Not during the late 40's.the cpusa was not a genuine threat to the stability of the u.s. regime. mccarthyism and all that was just the u.s. state firing off a warning shot...no further repression was needed...was anyone killed or sent to prison as a result of mccarthyism?


I'm not going to delve into any hypothetical guessing game. The point is that her opinion of the Cuban prisonlots of prisoners love their prisons.


It came from the revolutionary society of Cuba. a.k.a. violent capitalist expropriation of wealth.


The other person probably got it through the legal means set out by the Cuban workers.

ah yes, bourgeos appeals to legality.


The US prison system is not only racist and brutal, but based on punishment of deprived working-class peoples and nationalitiesagreed. just like the cuban prison system. (do you honestly think the majority of cuban prisoners are criollos?)


You've failed to support your claims at all. What you're doing is saying "Cuba is capitalist" without even attempting to back this up in any way.A) wages and alienated labor exist in cuba
B) a centralized police, military, and prison aparatus exists in cuba
C) the capitalist mode of production exists in cuba
D) cuba is capitalist. end of story.

So here we are again; you might as well try that old "Fidel eats babies" argument, because you have the exact same evidence for that as you do for the above statements.


More conjecture with no understanding of history.yes, historically, communists have opposed the economy. hence why marx dedicated his life to a critique of economy. how can you possibly try to deny this?


But they agree with your article on the most pertinent pointshow so?


so your arguments march with theirs in this case.i disagree. the average gusano would think i'm commie scum...i may borrow their observations about the cuban state...i retroactively oppose the ussr but recognize that soviet propagandists unearthed legitimate criticisms of material oppression in the u.s., in an attempt to win an inter-imperialist rivalry. you might as well say i support nazi imperialism because i find the bombing of dresden abhorent, or i support us imperialism because i abhor the holocaust.


All examples of anti-working-class behavior.again, you use "working-class" as a moral designation rather than a description of material conditions. unscientific, utopian socialism, as usual.


I don't remember "The Motorcycle Diaries" being viciously protested and banned from "ANY neighborhood in the us" as it was in Miami. I don't remember "ANY neighborhood in the us" going militant ape-sh*t over a certain little boy whose mother tried to smuggle him into the US.well yeah, rallying against the cuban state is the hobby-horse of the cuban diaspora in the u.s., i wouldn't deny that...


So no, it's not basically the same, the Cuban exiles in Miami are uniquely anti-socialist and reactionary.they're uniquely opposed to the cuban state, for reactionary reasons...(they desire a less egalitarian political regime)


There is room for emotion, you know.allowing emotions to control your opinions and actions is bourgeois.


I simply understand why the Cuban workers would employ such a term.as do i.


i've read your links, for the twentieth time. why don't you quote me the specific part that indicates or establishes that the workers control the means of production...given the privilige of voting is not the same thing as controling the means of economic production.


I suggest you show support for one of your arguments. Just one.google "sweden + direct democracy"


Right, we can assuredly have a working-class medical infrastructure. It works in Cuba.i want to abolish all forms of centralized, bureaucratized medical infastructure, and replace them with the communal practice of medicine.

[qupte]That may be so, but we're not talking about communist society. why not?


If you are, then you wandered into the wrong thread.i want to bring communism up in every single thread. communism should be always on our minds. communism is our goal, we shouldn't be distracted from it for even a second. how long must we wait for communism? leninists claim that state-socialism is the transition to communism, how long must this process take? 50 years? 100 years? why wait? create communism now.


You're ignoring how doctors work long hours, remember?everyone works long hours...


Did you know that many doctors in Cuba drive cabs to supplement their income?that's an argument for the cuban state? is this a joke?


No, are you?i'm not defending the cuban state.


I can't help it if you oppose the Cuban Revolution, now can I?the cuban revolution is over. let's start the second cuban revolution.

[manic expression]

Finally, this poster stopped dancing around long enough to say something somewhat relevant. Let's get down to the important stuff:


A) wages and alienated labor exist in cuba

Wages and alienated labor only go hand-in-hand in countries that are controlled by the bourgeoisie. In the case that the working class has conquered state power and has transformed society along working-class lines, wages cease to be the mark of theft. In capitalism, what the worker makes is stolen from him/her and s/he can do nothing because the state is on the side of the robber; in socialism (such as Cuba), nothing is stolen from the worker because it's his/her state (as proven by my links, links you've conveniently ignored). In addition to this, the fundamental truth is that Cuban workers are not selling their labor to a capitalist in order to survive.

As Marx put it in Capital:

"First stage: The capitalist appears as a buyer on the commodity- and the labour-market; his money is transformed into commodities, or it goes through the circulation act M — C. Second Stage: Productive consumption of the purchased commodities by the capitalist. He acts as a capitalist producer of commodities; his capital passes through the process of production. The result is a commodity of more value than that of the elements entering into its production.
Third Stage: The capitalist returns to the market as a seller; his commodities are turned into money; or they pass through the circulation act C — M."

This process has no basis in Cuba today. As there is no private ownership of property, no private employment of workers for production, no exploitation of workers through bourgeois channels, wage labor, as it exists in bourgeois society (under the conditions of bourgeois commodity production), simply does not exist in Cuba. The workers control the products of their labor through the revolutionary state, nothing is stolen from them.


B) a centralized police, military, and prison aparatus exists in cuba

These things are necessary to any socialist society. A centralized police helps the working class enforce the principles of socialist society, a military is needed to oppose and defeat imperialist aggression (such as in Playa Giron and Angola and elsewhere) and a prison apparatus is a tool of the working class in the enforcement of socialist laws.

As we can see from my links, the Cuban prison system actually helps workers realize their full potential, helping them pursue their passions and gain skills to use in their society. As we can see from history, the Cuban military is decidedly progressive and pro-worker: it was instrumental in the defeat of apartheid, it presently serves to frustrate American imperialist intentions and defend the workers of Cuba. As we can see from my other links, the Cuban police force does not suppress anyone who disagrees with the government or criticizes the revolution, it is the tool of the working class to maintain the order of that class.


C) the capitalist mode of production exists in cuba

Not so. Private property has been abolished; Cubans do not employ workers to extract surplus value, production is done through the working-class state.

As we have seen, the bourgeois process of commodity production has no place in Cuba. Let's analyze it a bit closer: While wages exist, their position, their purpose and their consequences are entirely different. Marx saw the commodity as the "cell" of bourgeois society, it drives everything, centers everything upon itself. In Cuba, the economy is centrally planned by delegates from the working class who own no property; in this case, how are we to believe commodity production is generalized, and therefore the "cell" of society? The commodity production formula put forth by Marx in Capital are nowhere to be found in Cuba.


D) cuba is capitalist. end of story.

You're talking about things you simply don't understand. End of story.

[Jethro Tull]

Finally, this poster stopped dancing around long enough to say something somewhat relevant. Let's get down to the important stuff

convenient way to sidestep my other points, but that's your perrogative..


Wages and alienated labor only go hand-in-hand in countries that are controlled by the bourgeoisie.that's because wages and alienated labor only exist in countries that are controlled by the bourgeoisie...


In the case that the working class has conquered state power and has transformed society along working-class linesexcept that hasn't happened. were that to happen, the centralized state aparatus would have been abolished in cuba, the conditions of communism would have bee created, and cuba would be a communist society, as you so freely admit it isn't...


wages cease to be the mark of theft.why would someone seek employment, if they controlled the means of production?


In capitalism, what the worker makes is stolen from him/her and s/he can do nothing because the state is on the side of the robber;which is exactly the situation in cuba. the state extorts money from the workers via taxation and rent, and extorts labor from them via alienated wage-labor and monopolization of the means of production.


in socialism (such as Cuba), nothing is stolen from the worker because it's his/her state (as proven by my links, links you've conveniently ignored).is that really the foundation of your argument. workers get to vote, therefore it doesn't matter that their labor is exploited?


In addition to this, the fundamental truth is that Cuban workers are not selling their labor to a capitalist in order to survive.then why are they selling their labor, if not to survive? what you're proposing sounds more like proudhonism to me than marxian communism....


This process has no basis in Cuba today.an accusation you can't substantiate....


As there is no private ownership of propertyyes there is, there has been since the early 90s. (i would argue that resources monopolized by the state are "privately owned", but that's a digression, any random worker is certainly not allowed to do whatever they see fit with any resource belonging to the cuban state. i can do whatever i want with my pipe, my toothbrust, my straight-razor, because i actually own these things)


no private employment of workers for productionwell, actually there is, but even if there wasn't, this wouldn't absolve cuba of capitalism.


no exploitation of workers through bourgeois channelswhy do you say "through bourgeois channels"? is this your tacit admission that exploitation of workers occurs some other way? clearly it's not fuedal eploitation.....


wage labor, as it exists in bourgeois society (under the conditions of bourgeois commodity production), simply does not exist in Cuba.how does employment in cuba differ from wage labor in bourgeois society? other than that cubans have "direct democracy"...


The workers control the products of their labor through the revolutionary statethere's no relationship, except in your mind. that's like raping someone and saying "i haven't raped you because i bought you a ferrari for your birthday last week". the fact that there is increased participation in decision-making by the masses within the cuban legislative bureaucracy does not indicate that workers control the products of their labor.

how about i come to your house, steal everything i want, and then we can vote on what two or three objects you get back? :D


These things are necessary to any socialist society.hence why socialists are an enemy of communism


A centralized police helps the working class enforce the principles of socialist societywhich includes criminalizing prostitutes, (lumpen scum!) and until recently, criminalizing homosexuals and pot-heads. (more lumpen scum!)

why is a centralized police bureaucracy needed to enforce the principles of socialist society? if a neighborhood of two or three hundred people can be organized to vote, as the cuban state illustrates, they can also be organized to collectively train in communal, co-operative self-defense. having a minority of workers who are assigned to protect the majority, ie: cops, is an excuse for exploitation....having rigidly defined rules, instead of analyzing every situation of social disturbance on a case by case basis, is a hallmark of a political regime, not a free society.


a military is needed to oppose and defeat imperialist aggressionto an extent you're right, however, a centralized, heirarchical, clauswitzian military is not needed unless a parasitic bureaucracy wishes to prolong its rule....autonomous guerilla cells are more effective in a situation of actual communist revolutionaries versus actual counter-revolutionary forces. (that's not what's going on in cuba though. in cuba we have a situation where a state that claims to be "revolutionary" monopolizes the resources with violence, as the petit-bourgoeis revolutionaries clamor to replace it with their own....)


a prison apparatus is a tool of the working class in the enforcement of socialist laws.again, "socialist laws" are not needed, nor is a prison needed to enforce them. if an individual has transgressed the standards of a community, and cannot or will not cooperate or repair the situation, that individual should be exiled or killed by the majority of the community. you may say this is barbaric, i say gulags are barbaric. you wan't totalitarian, technocratic, centralized state-socialism, i want communism.


As we can see from my links, the Cuban prison system actually helps workers realize their full potentialthe fact that you're willing to believe a state-sanctioed tour of an individual prison over the testamony of dozens of prisoners who claim they've been beaten, raped, and starved....what regime would allow foreign journalists to tour its prison system without making efforts to maintain a gentle facade?


helping them pursue their passions and gain skills to use in their society.in other words, to exploit their passions and skills....


As we can see from history, the Cuban military is decidedly progressive and pro-worker: it was instrumental in the defeat of apartheidmaybe...is the modern south african state "socialist" too?

, it presently serves to frustrate American imperialist intentions and defend the workers of Cuba.[/quote]

if the u.s. actually invaded cuba, the workers wouldn't wait for the military to protect them, they'd be in the streets protecting themselves. you know this.


As we can see from my other links, the Cuban police force does not suppress anyone who disagrees with the government or criticizes the revolutionand as i've said at least a half-dozen times, i am an american. i live in a state where the constitution of the legal system grants, as the first ammendment in a bill of rights, the freedom of speech and assembly. if the cuban state is unique in "not suppress anyone who disagrees with the government or criticizes the [regime]", why are we not both in jail?


it is the tool of the working class to maintain the order of that class.marx did not advocate "maintain[ing] the order" of the proletariat or any other existing class-divisions. he believed in proletarian self-abolition. something you've totally sidestepped in your desire to forestall communism.


Not so. Private property has been abolishedprivate property was never abolished. it was handed over from one group of monoplists to another. you're using "private property" in the colloquial sense, which indicates a lack of scientific analysis of the situation. i could just as easily claim that the headquarters of the c.i.a. and the f.b.i are not "private property", under your thinking. see what happens if you show up either place unannounced and insist on staying....


Cubans do not employ workers to extract surplus valueyeah, they burn all the surplus value in potlachs....:laugh::laugh:


production is done through the state.exactly. c.a.p.i.t.a.l.i.s.m.


As we have seen, the bourgeois process of commodity production has no place in Cuba.no, we haven't seen that. we've seen that the bourgeois process of commodity production is only altered in cuba, to the extent that the centralized state-aparatus monopolizes it, (which is true to some degree of every capitalist state) and the centralized state-aparatus also allows the workers to vote. you can't give me a single example of how economic relations are concretely different in cuba, you admit that everything that exists under capitalism also exists in cuba.


In Cuba, the economy is centrally planned by delegates from the working class who own no property; in this case, how are we to believe commodity production is generalized, and therefore the "cell" of society?because the delegates are corrupt assholes. the workers may get to vote on certain aspects of their lives. do they get to vote on whether or not they go to work, what's done with the stuff they produce, whether they have to pay taxes or rent?

how is "central planning" conducive to communism? do you even want communism?


The commodity production formula put forth by Marx in [I]Capital are nowhere to be found in Cuba.yes they are. the state is just more "hands-on"


End of story.the "end of story" is that i want communism, and you hate communism. the be-all and end-all of your existence appears to be the maintanance of a global socialist state, similar to stalin's ussr, castro's cuba, or hoxha's albania. the be-all and end-all of my existence is the creation of communism, the society marx wanted.

[manic expression]

convenient way to sidestep my other points, but that's your perrogative..

No, it's about getting to the issues that matter, because you're a hack. Since you didn't make any relevant points in the above post, we'll keep it to this:


except that hasn't happened. were that to happen, the centralized state aparatus would have been abolished in cuba, the conditions of communism would have bee created, and cuba would be a communist society, as you so freely admit it isn't...Soooooo, you're complaining the Cuba isn't a classless, stateless, borderless society?

That's just a stupid argument, even when taken at face value.

So let's delve into this, shall we? The issue here isn't the actions of the Cuban workers, it's your childish inability to understand what revolution entails. WHAT, precisely, are the conditions necessary for communism? HOW, exactly, are we to get there?

Have fun actually outlining your insipid worldview. I'll wait until you make a single valid point, OK? Good luck, you're gonna need it.

[Jethro Tull]

Soooooo, you're complaining the Cuba isn't a classless, stateless, borderless society?

i'm "complaining" that cuba is a capitalist state, albeit a relatively benign one. (a relative benign capitalist state, however, is like a relatively benign rapist)


That's just a stupid argument, even when taken at face value.it's stupid to point out that political regimes that justify their own existence by promising to transition to communism have never followed through with their promises?


The issue here isn't the actions of the Cuban workersthat's never been the issue. the only actions of the cuban workers[/quote]

is this another example of your 'charming' conflation of the actions of the cuban state with the actions of the cuban masses?


it's your childish inability to understand what revolution entails.the ussr lasted 69 years without creating communism. the socialist republic of cuba is 50 years old. the p.r.c. is 60 years old. the d.p.r.k. is 61 years old. the socialist republic of vietnam is 35 years old. it does not take half a century or more for the dictatorship of the proletriat to destroy the vestiges of bourgeois power within a liberated zone. if you honestly believe otherwise, talk about childishness...might as well believe in the fuckin' tooth fairy


WHAT, precisely, are the conditions necessary for communism?

communism is a necessity regardless of the conditions. communism is not something we can comprimise. communism is not something we need to test out on focus groups. communism is the only way we can be free. even if the possibility of creating communism was hopeless, (far from it, in fact) it would still be necessary for our ethical and spiritual integrity to fight for it, without any compromise. otherwise we could not call ourselves human beings. if this makes me a fanatic, i'm glad. i'd rather be a fanatic than a "pragmatic" socialist sell-out.


HOW, exactly, are we to get there?that's a question with no short answer, but i'll try to give one: by creating communes that directly challenge capitalist monopolization of resources.

[KC]

So has anyone yet explained in the pages of this thread how what this man said is "damaging" to the "Revolution" and how the actions of the state (imprisoning him) are not worse?

[leveller]

I guess that now he's in prison he's getting something to eat at least.

So socialism in cuba works, complain your hungry, we lock you up, you eat...

Cant help but think it wasn't what Che had in mind back in 59'

[manic expression]

i'm "complaining" that cuba is a capitalist state, albeit a relatively benign one. (a relative benign capitalist state, however, is like a relatively benign rapist)

You've never justified this, and you've been debunked every time you've tried. Sorry, better luck next time.


it's stupid to point out that political regimes that justify their own existence by promising to transition to communism have never followed through with their promises?

You don't transition into communism when you want to.

That's why you're a child who doesn't understand revolution.


is this another example of your 'charming' conflation of the actions of the cuban state with the actions of the cuban masses?

Probably, because it's true. See my links, big guy.


the ussr lasted 69 years without creating communism. the socialist republic of cuba is 50 years old. the p.r.c. is 60 years old. the d.p.r.k. is 61 years old. the socialist republic of vietnam is 35 years old. it does not take half a century or more for the dictatorship of the proletriat to destroy the vestiges of bourgeois power within a liberated zone. if you honestly believe otherwise, talk about childishness...might as well believe in the fuckin' tooth fairy

See previous answer, child.


communism is a necessity regardless of the conditions.

Sooooooooo you're too intellectually lazy to understand that the conditions necessary for communism are...a necessity for communism. Gotcha.


that's a question with no short answer, but i'll try to give one: by creating communes that directly challenge capitalist monopolization of resources.

:lol:

And when the capitalists come to take back their property, what are you going to do? Create more communes?! :laugh:

Anarchists are so funny when they try to propose stuff. Thanks for exposing yourself as politically bankrupt.

[proudcomrade]

Edited to specify: this is for manic expression.

Even as a fellow Cuba ally who agrees with just about every single point that you've made thus far, your increasingly hostile behavior is growing a bit tedious. Is there some reason for which you feel the need to resort to namecalling, ad hominems and the like? The only person coming out looking like a "child" here is currently you. Please consider responding with a bit more emotional self-control. You are dragging down with you the reputations of other comrades who are here to defend Cuba reasonably.

[willdw79]

Edited to specify: this is for manic expression.

Even as a fellow Cuba ally who agrees with just about every single point that you've made thus far, your increasingly hostile behavior is growing a bit tedious. Is there some reason for which you feel the need to resort to namecalling, ad hominems and the like? The only person coming out looking like a "child" here is currently you. Please consider responding with a bit more emotional self-control. You are dragging down with you the reputations of other comrades who are here to defend Cuba reasonably.
Your comment is whiny... guess we can classify them all.