"Communism breads Laziness": Stupid History Class

[BakuninFan]

My stupid history teacher brought up some things in a very right-biased economics lesson. After I brought up a leftist statement to counter him, he concluded by quoting Hitler, "Communism breads laziness".

I have a few ideas, but what is a good, historical, and biting comeback for this? What statement/example would be the best to prove him wrong?

[bcbm]

I have a few ideas, but what is a good, historical, and biting comeback for this?

"So what?"

[BakuninFan]

I mean seriously, do you truely think that Leftist ideals bread mass laziness? If you did then you wouldnt be here! I need a real thesis or the like....

[bcbm]

I think the real problem is that "mass laziness" is seen as a negative thing, instead of a positive development in human history.

[yuon]

The first question to ask is: "what's wrong with laziness?"

The answer to that question is, but if everyone is lazy, no work will get done. Which is a pretty shit answer. See, communism is a system where a lot of useless work (e.g. financial, bill collection etc.) no longer exists. Without the competition that is promoted so much in a capitalist system, you no longer need 100 different types of toothpaste (produced by 5 different companies). So, you get rid of a lot of jobs there as well.

So, there is a lot less work to go around, to maintain the same standard of living. Of course people are going to "work" less.

However, just because they aren't "working" doesn't mean that they aren't being productive.

So, in conclusion, there isn't anything "wrong" with laziness. And only stupid people would say otherwise. (That last sentence is at the same level as the original quote. That is, grade 2 level, no evidence to back it up, no thought put into it. That's the other thing, because someone (Hitler) is making the claim, it's not up to you to disprove it. But rather the person making the claim to prove it.)

[FreeFocus]

Work under capitalism is not the opposite of laziness, as your teacher implies. But for those who defend laziness, frankly I wouldn't have much respect for a person who simply sat around watching TV all day. That's not productive and in my opinion, pathetic. They're free to do it, but I don't have to like or respect it. I think hard work builds character, but capitalism has degrading work. There's a difference.

Furthermore, I think the fact that he quoted Hitler can be used against him. I mean, really? Explain that communism entails workers seizing the means of production, not walking out from their jobs and sitting on their couches doing nothing. Whereas capitalism has work for survival, communism has work for enjoyment, and psychological studies show time and time again that intrinsic motivation is more fulfilling and produces workers who approach their work more enthusiastically.

[BakuninFan]

I'm sorry If I sound bickerish or something in that last sentance, what I meant really was "What would be a proper response to such a quote".

Wouldn't laziness bread innefficiency? Basically what I am getting at is that the significant right-wing argument is that "Communism doesnt work because people simply do not have a motif to work for if everyone is payed the same". I dont agree with that, but I need a nice statement from my fellow Leftists describing why that right wing theory is untrue, irrelavent, ect.

[BakuninFan]

Work under capitalism is not the opposite of laziness, as your teacher implies. But for those who defend laziness, frankly I wouldn't have much respect for a person who simply sat around watching TV all day. That's not productive and in my opinion, pathetic. They're free to do it, but I don't have to like or respect it. I think hard work builds character, but capitalism has degrading work. There's a difference.

Furthermore, I think the fact that he quoted Hitler can be used against him. I mean, really? Explain that communism entails workers seizing the means of production, not walking out from their jobs and sitting on their couches doing nothing. Whereas capitalism has work for survival, communism has work for enjoyment, and psychological studies show time and time again that intrinsic motivation is more fulfilling and produces workers who approach their work more enthusiastically.
I certainly agree with you! I will use this :cool:

[Oneironaut]

My stupid history teacher brought up some things in a very right-biased economics lesson. After I brought up a leftist statement to counter him, he concluded by quoting Hitler, "Communism breads laziness".

I have a few ideas, but what is a good, historical, and biting comeback for this? What statement/example would be the best to prove him wrong?

You can add that communism does entail responsibility on the part of the individual if they want to receive the same benefits of society at large. The individual still has the responsibility to 'work' for the lack of a better word. This 'work' will likely take on levels beyond our archaic conception of it and will be much more of a creative, liberating activity. The real source of widespread laziness is alienation, IMO.

[bcbm]

But for those who defend laziness, frankly I wouldn't have much respect for a person who simply sat around watching TV all day. That's not productive and in my opinion, pathetic. They're free to do it, but I don't have to like or respect it.

Hey, if you want to do your three hours of delivering socialized pizza or whatever and then spend the next 21 just vegging out on your couch, cool. But I like to think that in a society where we can afford that much free time to everyone on the planet, we could create way more appealing things to do with that time.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Slavery is less lazy than wage-slavery, which one is better? Capitalism also used to make children work 12 hour days... I guess kids are lazy now that labor rights have been won:rolleyes:

Labor under capitalism is alienated which means that individual workers do not control their own output and do not share in the overall profit. Capitalism breeds laziness among individual workers because workers do not get more if they increase production... look at the US in the last few decades. Productivity has increased greatly and people work more hours in the US than most other 1st world capitalist countries and yet wages have stagnated during this same time and the cost of living has gone up. Individual workers may not articulate this, but they know it instinctively and will try and do as little work as they can get away with without getting fired or demoted... good for them.

As for a comeback, why not: "Hey, stop quoting bullshit from Adolph Fucking Hitler! Why should we believe anything from an asshole who gets his opinions from a mass murdering anti-semetic homophobic racist fuck!"

[chimx]

"So what?"

As long as the bread comes with a side of jam, I agree.

[BakuninFan]

Slavery is less lazy than wage-slavery, which one is better? Capitalism also used to make children work 12 hour days... I guess kids are lazy now that labor rights have been won:rolleyes:

Labor under capitalism is alienated which means that individual workers do not control their own output and do not share in the overall profit. Capitalism breeds laziness among individual workers because workers do not get more if they increase production... look at the US in the last few decades. Productivity has increased greatly and people work more hours in the US than most other 1st world capitalist countries and yet wages have stagnated during this same time and the cost of living has gone up. Individual workers may not articulate this, but they know it instinctively and will try and do as little work as they can get away with without getting fired or demoted... good for them.

As for a comeback, why not: "Hey, stop quoting bullshit from Adolph Fucking Hitler! Why should we believe anything from an asshole who gets his opinions from a mass murdering anti-semetic homophobic racist fuck!"
Ahh yes I completely forgot about alienation! Ill have to mention that, thanks!

And I like the comback, it is certainly true.

[Outinleftfield]

He's quoting Hitler?

I think you answered your own question. You should've responded with

"Hitler said that."

If you could give the year or even the full date and time and the place Hitler said that or where he is quoted as saying that that would've been even better. Then everyone in the class would've known the teacher was quoting Hitler.

[BIG BROTHER]

A simple answer. If communism breads laziness how did the Soviet Union become a world power(the ussr wasn't communist but thats besides the point) or how did production increased even more than during the capitalist era on catalunia during the anarchist 1936 revolution.

[which doctor]

Interestingly enough, Karl Marx's son-in-law, Paul Lafargue, wrote a treatise titled The Right to be Lazy.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/lafargue/1883/lazy/index.htm

[scarletghoul]

I would draw attention to the fact that this is a Hitler quote.

Hitler also advocated elimination of the Jews. Does your History teacher agree with this too?

[Il Medico]

Ask him what type of bread laziness is. My bet is pumpernickel.

[yuon]

Interestingly enough, Karl Marx's son-in-law, Paul Lafargue, wrote a treatise titled The Right to be Lazy.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/lafargue/1883/lazy/index.htm

I just want to recommend this book to all, and thank the which doctor for pointing it out. This is quite a nice read, well written, and best, fits well with my own opinions on the subject (;)).

[Prairie Fire]

This "socialism breeds laziness" outlook also inherently includes the notion that workers are lazy, but bosses are not.

Let me repeat that: Those that live on the profits generated by the labour of other humyn beings are never seen as lazy (when have you ever heard someone refer to their boss as lazy?), and those that generate the profits through their labour and are exploited by these parasites, are called "lazy", "greedy", "selfish", etc.

It is not only a Hitler quote (so much of anti-communism is based on fascism. It is not surprising that Winston Churchill, Canadian prime minister Mackenzie King, and many major American industrialists had the biggest crush on the policies of the third reich); It is pure boss narrative.

The dominant ideas of every society are those of the ruling class, so this notion that the bosses have where the employer is the real hard worker, and the employee's are lazy and always trying to work the system, becomes the dominant narrative.

[chegitz guevara]

What's wrong with being lazy?

[NecroCommie]

Respond: "So if I own a factory without any logical reason except the abstract notion of inheritence, and if I am capable to just wank around because of that, that's hard working?"

[yuon]

Respond: "So if I own a factory without any logical reason except the abstract notion of inheritence, and if I am capable to just wank around because of that, that's hard working?"

Inheritance is a really good thing to use as a come back. Inheritance is a fundamental part of the capitalist system. Yet, (to steal an idea from a great theoretician), how much work did the Walton of Walmart fame children do? To crawl out of their mother...

[red cat]

Laziness is not good. Capitalists, the real well wishers of humanity, know that. That's why they send their armies into wherever there is a revolution; so that the people have at least something to do. :D

[Luisrah]

Well, since in a communist society, everyone can work in what they want (no one is a doctor because it pays well, but because they like it) they will work happily and therefore won't be ''lazy''.

Besides, in a communist society, people have a sense of responsibility towards the community. While in capitalism people work to survive, in communism, people work because their work is helpful (and they know it) and because they like what they are doing.

I think that's it.

[Mindtoaster]

I'm having difficulties finding any evidence linking that quote to Hitler

.... I would be careful about using that as a comeback

[KC]

It has been objected that upon the abolition of private property, all work will cease, and universal laziness will overtake us.

According to this, bourgeois society ought long ago to have gone to the dogs through sheer idleness; for those of its members who work, acquire nothing, and those who acquire anything do not work. The whole of this objection is but another expression of the tautology: that there can no longer be any wage-labour when there is no longer any capital.
- Karl Marx, Manifesto of the Communist Party (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch02.htm), Ch. 2

[Holden Caulfield]

I'm gonna under intellectualize this one:

Everybody has a stake in the factory as it is under collective ownership, this reminds me of a saying my old man said to me a few times:

"you don't piss on your own doorstep"

you can take your own meanings from it, I know Its well deep

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Wouldn't laziness bread innefficiency? Basically what I am getting at is that the significant right-wing argument is that "Communism doesnt work because people simply do not have a motif to work for if everyone is payed the same". I dont agree with that, but I need a nice statement from my fellow Leftists describing why that right wing theory is untrue, irrelavent, ect.
To say that equal pay breeds laziness is to say that people will not work hard unless you pay them extra for their hard work.

Does capitalism do this? Does capitalism pay the most money to people who do the hardest work? No! On the contrary! The people who do the hardest work in capitalism - miners, construction workers, and so on - get very low wages compared to people who do little or no work at all.

In fact, capitalism even allows you to get lots of money without lifting a finger. That's what profits are. You can buy stock and become a shareholder in a company, and then you'll get part of that company's profits without having to do any work. Capitalism promotes laziness.

[bcbm]

Are we upset that the rich don't work hard like us, or that we don't get to be lazy like them? Personally I would rather drive around in nice cars and hang out with my friends and family and do movies, sports, etc all day than work in a mine.

[JazzRemington]

If one were to live in a world where work is unnecessary to secure a living, is there really such thing as laziness?

[mikelepore]

What statement/example would be the best to prove him wrong?

He's making a criticism based on assumed form. Communism can take on an unlimited number of forms. If a critic thinks that one form would produce a problem, then he's not criticizing communism itself, but only saying that communism would have to be given a more workable form instead of a less workable form.

For example, in my own branch of Marxism, many of us believe that a classless society will have to compensate workers with hourly incomes that they will redeem to obtain products, because a form of classless society that uses voluntary labor and distributes products for free would promote laziness.

[rednordman]

I'm gonna under intellectualize this one:

Everybody has a stake in the factory as it is under collective ownership, this reminds me of a saying my old man said to me a few times:

"you don't piss on your own doorstep"

you can take your own meanings from it, I know Its well deepThats a good quote there and one that all those silly 'communism breads laziness' will not be able to answer well (this could also be used for anarchism also).

I mean if you are a part of something in even todays society, it is a very bad thing if someone tries to destroy it. Generally you will feel resentment. If that kind of feeling could get transferred into almost every aspect of society, than people would learn to be respectfull to each other as they know that what ever they are 'pissing' on, its like pissing on themselves.

This thing can never ever happen under capitalism, which is ironic because its something that alot of its staunch supporters complain about. They do not see that their whole ideology is about raping the soul of humanity until the most ardent talent and ideas are totally worthless, ugly and impotent. The market needs 'whats hot and what not' let me say that. It doesnt care for style OR substance.

Anyhow, if communism breeds laziness.....then what does capitalism breed...

(also i cannot believe that the teacher quoted hitler)

[willdw79]

My stupid history teacher brought up some things in a very right-biased economics lesson. After I brought up a leftist statement to counter him, he concluded by quoting Hitler, "Communism breads laziness".

I have a few ideas, but what is a good, historical, and biting comeback for this? What statement/example would be the best to prove him wrong?
Tell him under capitalism the laziest of all get the biggest rewards. All you need is a trust fund or a rich uncle and under capitalism you never have to work. Then tell him to go fuck his mother.

[amandevsingh]

Then tell him to go fuck his mother.

This.

[FreeFocus]

If one were to live in a world where work is unnecessary to secure a living, is there really such thing as laziness?

Yes, because being lazy basically describes a person who is able, but opts against activity. Some people are just lazy. It's a human characteristic. It wouldn't go anywhere in a communist society.

The thing is that the bourgeoisie has used the term to fit its needs. That's what we should be fighting against, not asking a question like "what's wrong with laziness?" Well, there's plenty wrong with it. A better question when discussing laziness is, "What is laziness?" Especially if you're debating a cappie. I mean, it's not particularly difficult to debate them into a corner. They'll say, "Poor people are poor because they are lazy and don't work." Examples are countless of people with 3 or 4 jobs who still barely make end's meet. They don't get sleep. How the fuck are they lazy? That alone proves that the conception of "laziness" under capitalism is twisted.

[bcbm]

Yes, because being lazy basically describes a person who is able, but opts against activity. Some people are just lazy. It's a human characteristic. It wouldn't go anywhere in a communist society.

I would say it describes a person who opts against certain activity. I think there are very few people who would just sit around all day laying in bed (though that can be fun) all the time.


The thing is that the bourgeoisie has used the term to fit its needs. That's what we should be fighting against, not asking a question like "what's wrong with laziness?" Well, there's plenty wrong with it.

For example?


How the fuck are they lazy? That alone proves that the conception of "laziness" under capitalism is twisted.

I think the concept of "work" is the one that is really on its head. Certainly accusations of laziness have been abused but they ultimately come back to the work ethic the ruling class developed early in the industrial period to force the new proletarians to fall in line and work day in and day out.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Typical stupid bourgeois strawman nonsense. The Capitalist mode of production is designed to isolate us and wishes us to become lazy in order to nullify our threat to their privelege. The collectivisation of the means of production would mean that each person would benefit from their work as opposed to being ensalved by their work, sure people will be able to be 'lazy' in Communist society due to the abundance of time which will be dedicated to the individual and their creative pursuits. However I dispute the idea of laziness existing in Communist society as we have to recognise the effect the Capitalist mode of production has on the proletariat and that in Communist society we will have a system that does not isolate or enslave and benefits the individual and the collective equally.

[Soldier of life]

I would say to your teacher this...

Before the minimum wage came in wasn't it the common argument that its implementation would crush a workers incentive to work.

This could also be said of when pensions were to be introduced. I'm open to correction on this, but I think its an interesting and effective rebuttal.

Unless your teacher thinks minimum wage was a bad thing, then you should just line him up against a wall.

[KommieKarl]

"Lies told often enough become the truth" -Lenin