Earth liberation Front attacks A.M. towers.

[The Something]

A group cited by U.S. officials as a domestic terrorism threat claimed responsibility Friday for knocking down two radio station towers in Snohomish County, Washington. http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/CRIME/09/04/washington.towers.terrorism/art.radio.tower.king.jpgMuch of the tower system, owned by radio station KRKO, was "flattened like a pancake," the manager said.


http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/.element/img/2.0/mosaic/base_skins/baseplate/corner_wire_BL.gif


The Earth Liberation Front (ELF) issued a statement saying opponents of the towers argue that "AM radio waves cause adverse health effects including a higher rate of cancer, harm to wildlife, and that the signals have been interfering with home phone and intercom lines."
"When all legal channels of opposition have been exhausted, concerned citizens have to take action into their own hands to protect life and the planet," Jason Crawford, a spokesman for the group, said in a news release.
Members of ELF have been sentenced for acts of domestic terrorism (http://topics.cnn.com/topics/Terrorism) in the past.
Though no one is known to have been killed in ELF attacks, the government defines domestic terrorism as use or threatened use of violence by a domestic group "against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives," the FBI's (http://topics.cnn.com/topics/Federal_Bureau_of_Investigation) then-domestic terrorism chief, James F. Jarboe, explained in congressional testimony in 2002.
The towers belong to radio station KRKO. "There's quite a bit of destruction to the antenna system and it will probably take at least three months to get it back up and operational again," station manager Andy Skotdal told CNN affiliate KIRO, adding that much of it was "flattened like a pancake."
The station remained on the air by using a backup transmitter site, he said.
KRKO is working with authorities to find those responsible, Skotdal said, adding, "We'll use our own airwaves to do it."
The perpetrators stole an excavating machine out of a yard in order to knock down the towers, Skotdal said.
(http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/09/04/washington.towers.terrorism/index.html#cnnSTCVideo)
The Snohomish County Sheriff's Office said the Seattle office of the FBI is the lead investigative agency in the incident. Officials at the FBI office did not immediately return a call seeking comment.
http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/.element/img/2.0/content/ads/advertisement.gif


Snohomish County is just north of Seattle. The attack took place in an unincorporated part of the county, officials said.
In its news release, the ELF describes itself as "an international underground organization that uses direct action in the form of economic sabotage to stop the systematic exploitation and destruction of the planet. Since its inception in North America in 1996, the ELF has inflicted well over $150 million in damages to corporations and governmental agencies that are profiting from the destruction of the Earth."
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/09/04/washington.towers.terrorism/index.html

[Raúl Duke]

I don't want to sound too much of a dick...but.


The Earth Liberation Front (ELF) issued a statement saying opponents of the towers argue that "AM radio waves cause adverse health effects including a higher rate of cancer, harm to wildlife, and that the signals have been interfering with home phone and intercom lines."

Aren't there more important targets?
Even for environmentalists there're bigger threats to nature (hell, I would be glad if ELF, Greenpeace, whatever showed up in my area considering that's near the Everglades) out there then just AM radio
(unless I'm mistaken)

[Jimmie Higgins]

Regardless of there being more important targets - which there are - this kind of stunt does nothing to build any kind of movement or bring people into struggle.

Here in Oakland and Richmond we have neighborhoods that smell like the nearby oil refinery and in the summer half of West Oakland smells like the water treatment center a few miles away. There are millions of ways to build working class movements against pollution and yet liberal groups as well as radical liberal groups like ELF are incapable and have no interest in building movements that could make a difference.

[RebelFag]

I don't want to sound too much of a dick...but.



Aren't there more important targets?
Even for environmentalists there're bigger threats to nature (hell, I would be glad if ELF, Greenpeace, whatever showed up in my area considering that's near the Everglades) out there then just AM radio
(unless I'm mistaken)

I think the high voltage powerlines are alot more dangerous to the enviroment than AM radio waves. you can hear them crackling, that crackling is lines of electrical force arcing.

People say living near them gives you cancer.


A growing body of scientific evidence suggests that invisible electromagnetic fields (EMFs) -- created by everything from high-voltage utility company lines to personal computers, microwave ovens, TVs and even electric blankets -- are linked to a frightening array of cancers and other serious health problems in children and adults.

Though it received scant attention from the mainstream press, a report leaked last October from the U.S. National Council on Radiation Protection said there is a powerful body of impressive evidence showing that even very low exposure to electromagnetic radiation has long-term effects on health.

The report cited studies that show EMFs can disturb the production of the hormone melatonin, which is linked with sleep patterns. It said there was strong evidence that children exposed to EMFs had a higher risk of leukemia.

This follows on the heels of three epidemiological reports released in 1994. One indicated a tie between occupational exposure to EMFs and Alzheimer' s disease. Another suggested a link with Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (SIDS). The third study indicated a tie with Amyotrophic lateralsclerosis.

[sascha]

I support ELF action, it is just a step and who say that every stap must be something BIG?
better small action than nothing. during the time, group will make bigger actions. don't hurry up :cool:
and those who speak always about other methods, obviously didn't make massive movement with such other methods.
I don't see any revolution around me.

[chegitz guevara]

Fucking anarchists. :rolleyes:

[Plagueround]

Fucking anarchists. :rolleyes:

Clearly representative of all anarchists. Intelligent post.

[Communist]

AM radio towers?

I agree with others, there are far more environmentally devastating entities than AM radio stations...

[Comrade B]

and that the signals have been interfering with home phone and intercom lines
hehe, I was in my Mao's China class a couple days ago when the sound system started playing really bad music faintly, it was pretty funny.
This seems like a kind of weak act in a region where there are a billion other environmental dangers.... Washington contains
The polluted Puget Sound
Hanford Nuclear Plant (where they do environmental radiation tests, this resulted at one point in radioactive tumbleweed being a problem to local towns, including my home town)
Umatilla Weapon Depot, where chemical weapons are underground in bunkers, and being burned daily... the smoke drifts over the nearby town

[trinity42]

Dumb shits. Those AM radio waves can be used to tell the populace about the huge threats to the environment from mining, power production, the tens of thousands of inorganic chemicals released into our ecosystem in the last half-century, toxic industrial production methods, the pollution of mostly poor and non-white communities, and so on and so forth.

But a radio tower is easy.

Stupid.

ETA: Yes, Comrade B...good points. Hanford. They have Hanford and they are bombing radio towers. *headdesk*

[bcbm]

Seems like most people here don't understand how the ELF operate, or what appears to have happened in this case. There's no leadership or real strategy here, its just a banner to claim specific acts under. To that end, it looks like this act was probably just some pissed off locals.


Washington contains
The polluted Puget Sound
Hanford Nuclear Plant (where they do environmental radiation tests, this resulted at one point in radioactive tumbleweed being a problem to local towns, including my home town)
Umatilla Weapon Depot, where chemical weapons are underground in bunkers, and being burned daily... the smoke drifts over the nearby town

How the hell would an ELF cell strike at a weapons depot or nuclear power plant?

[Comrade B]

How the hell would an ELF cell strike at a weapons depot or nuclear power plant?
yeah, a good point... that would probably kill us all actually

[Saorsa]

What a waste of time.

[Dimentio]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/09/04/washington.towers.terrorism/index.html

The ELF is on the same insanity level as the Branch Davidians, the followers of Turkmenbashi or the Raëlians. Its a primitivist organisation for the first, believing that the solution to all the problems of the world is to destroy all technology - technology which we need to provide all people with a high quality of life. Secondly, their strategy of bringing down technology is even more idiotic. They want to bring it down by sabotage actions, just fuelling the capitalist growth which they claim to despise.

A simplicistic organisation.

I blame Hollywood. I wonder why the primitivists almost always are portrayed as "the good guys".

[bcbm]

The ELF is on the same insanity level as the Branch Davidians, the followers of Turkmenbashi or the Raëlians.

These comparisons are completely outlandish.


Its a primitivist organisation for the first, believing that the solution to all the problems of the world is to destroy all technology - technology which we need to provide all people with a high quality of life.

The ELF is not an organization and they have no real ideology beyond a few basic tenets, none of which has anything to do with what you're talking about:

To inflict maximum economic damage on those profiting from the destruction and exploitation of the environment (biophysical).
To reveal to, and to educate the public about the atrocities committed against the earth and all species that populate it.
To take all necessary precautions against harming any animal - human and non-human.


Secondly, their strategy of bringing down technology is even more idiotic. They want to bring it down by sabotage actions, just fuelling the capitalist growth which they claim to despise.


Their strategy is to remove the profit motive for environmental destruction by causing economic damage to those who do it. I'm not saying this is a better strategy, but get your facts straight.

[progressive_lefty]

I think the ELF are embarrassing for most on the left. Even if your not building working-class movements, there's other ways of going about 'earth liberation' then just random acts of destruction.

[bcbm]

How is targetting specific things that are causing some level of environmental damage "random destruction?"

[ls]

How is targetting specific things that are causing some level of environmental damage "random destruction?"

So much for "just getting the facts right" - you are defending them.

If you're going to target things that cause environmental destruction, are you going to smash cars up too? Because that might as well be your absurd suggestion.

How on earth is smashing a radio station going to A) actually help the environment in any obvious meaningful way, other than some obscure speculative shit way B) bring more people onside to being pro-environment.

The entire thing is ridiculous and regardless of how "grassroots" this ELF are, they are nutjobs and we'd do well to steer nice and clear of their stupid stunts.

[yuon]

I'll direct ya'll to the post I made in a thread in OI on the same topic. But because a lot of you won't bother to follow the link, I'll also quote myself.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/elf-t116847/index.html


A lot of people don't really understand the ELF (or RAAN, or CrimethInc, etc.). They are effectively a disorganised, non-organisation. There is nothing but an idea, as such, anyone can claim to be part of the ELF.

As such, to say, the ELF are ignorant idiots, is, in fact, an ignorant comment. There is no such thing as the "Earth Liberation Front" as such. Just groups of people operating independently, without coordination, and without connection with each other.

I don't know much about this act, other than what I read on the links I've included above. It doesn't strike me as the sort of act that is commonly done by the "ELF", and as such, it's probably a new cell. Perhaps a cell that formed only to knock these towers over.

I don't know how much good this did, but I refuse to condemn the action. If nothing else, it's people taking things into their hands, and fighting the state and corporations.

I'll also give a link from the post in that thread:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2009809764_radiotowers05m.html
And I'll quote from it:

Andy Skotdal, general manager of the family-owned sports-radio station, isn't convinced ELF is responsible, even though the group's North American press office in Washington, D.C., issued a news release and posted an item on its national Web site Friday saying it was.

He suspects disgruntled locals who have long opposed the siting of the towers on 40 acres of farmland may have taken matters into their own hands after losing a key ruling in King County Superior Court a few weeks ago.

"My suspicion is, it's somebody local," Skotdal, whose family has owned the station for 20 years, said by phone Friday as he watched dozens of sheriff's detectives and FBI agents comb the property for evidence. "It could be somebody painting ELF on a banner to throw off suspicion."

So, probably locals, formed for just this one action, claiming to be ELF to sow confusion.

Oh, and why would people do this sort of thing? To quote from the article again:

Lee Bennett, president of Citizens to Preserve the Upper Snohomish River Valley, said since the Skotdals began transmitting from the Short School Road site in February, area residents have dealt with radio interference that has interrupted phone service, computers and TVs.

The radio station's sports programs were blasted over the public-address system of a nearby church, and the radio waves have even caused garage doors and a couple of automatic car windows to randomly open, he said.

It probably wasn't even done for the "environmental" aspect, but just because it pissed of people that little bit too much.

So, maybe you fuckers who go and post single line posts, can fuck off? Learn a little bit more about the action, don't assume it was anarchists (it probably wasn't, most people aren't), or that it was a waste of time. It was people who got sick and tired of corporations and the state interfering with, and attempting to run, their lives. And they did something about it.

That should be applauded, not condemned.

[bcbm]

So much for "just getting the facts right" - you are defending them.

How is pointing out that the targets are not random defending anything? I don't really give a shit one way or another about the ELF, but the lies and nonsense people are sprouting is just ridiculous.


If you're going to target things that cause environmental destruction, are you going to smash cars up too? Because that might as well be your absurd suggestion.

Several Hummer dealerships have been targetting by the ELF.


How on earth is smashing a radio station going to A) actually help the environment in any obvious meaningful way, other than some obscure speculative shit way B) bring more people onside to being pro-environment.

youn's post laid out quite nicely what probably happened here.


The entire thing is ridiculous and regardless of how "grassroots" this ELF are, they are nutjobs and we'd do well to steer nice and clear of their stupid stunts.

Who is "they?" There is no ELF. There are no members. It is a banner used for certain actions, some of them regrettable, others not.


It was people who got sick and tired of corporations and the state interfering with, and attempting to run, their lives. And they did something about it.

That should be applauded, not condemned.

I think we'd certainly be in more interesting times if people just started driving heavy machinery into banks and their bosses' houses when they got laid off.

[Dimentio]

The thing embarassing here is bcbm's apologism for bored people and radical primitivists. Do not try to claim that ELF and ALF are not inspired by anarcho-primitivist thinking.

[yuon]

The thing embarassing here is bcbm's apologism for bored people and radical primitivists. Do not try to claim that ELF and ALF are not inspired by anarcho-primitivist thinking.

I take it you didn't read my post then.

I very much doubt that the people who did this were radical (or any sort of) primitivist. Locals were complaining about the transmissions interfering with intercoms, electronic garage doors, and other sorts of technology.

Sure, the idea of ELF and ALF may have been partly inspired by "anarcho-primitivist" thinking (the Monkey Wrench Gang is hardly anarcho-primitivist literature though), but that doesn't mean squat.

Anyone can claim the banner of "ELF" when taking any sort of action. There is no centralised committee that defends the name.

Anyone with a grievance can spray "ELF" on a wall. That's the point.

The ELF isn't "anarcho-primitivist", it isn't anything, just people doing stuff. I'm betting the people responsible for this action have had a little trouble with the law in the past. Maybe a drink-driving offence, or they may have got into a fight in the past. But they sure as hell won't be crazy environmentalists hell bent on bringing down civilisation. (At least, I wouldn't think they would be, most people aren't.)

---
On the topic of destruction more generally:
I'm discussed destroying SUV dealerships before. (Nothing came of it.) The rational is simple: SUV's are shit, it could be lots of fun, and if nothing else, some insurance company will be out of pocket.

No one who discussed this thought that it might be the spark that brought about the downfall of capitalism. We aren't that stupid. But that wasn't the point. The point was, we don't like seeing these big, gas guzzling cars on our city streets. They are dangerous, and have no place in a city. We thought about taking matters into our own hands. (And probably would have sprayed "ELF" up if we had have done it.) Sure, we didn't. But only because we hadn't planned it properly.

So, now restrict me for a primitivist! I know you want to.

[TC]

The ELF have real guts and take real risks, leftists just whine and fantasize and play it safe, so no wonder leftists feel a need to discredit them. Put yourself on the line first and then talk about improper target selection, m'kay?

[Dimentio]

The ELF have real guts and take real risks, leftists just whine and fantasize and play it safe, so no wonder leftists feel a need to discredit them. Put yourself on the line first and then talk about improper target selection, m'kay?

It is not that hard to destroy something, you know. ^^

[yuon]

It is not that hard to destroy something, you know. ^^

So, what have you done recently? You don't need to tell us what you did, it's enough (at least for me), for you to say you have done something worthwhile.

Oh, and marching around in circles isn't hard, it's easier than destroying something.

As for me, back in the day I used to spray paint. Revolutionary slogans on the sides of multinational corporations. Sure, it didn't mean much, but I did hope that it might twinge some leftist into more action. (I've done other stuff, but I'm not going to admit to that on here.)

[Dimentio]

If I had done any actions, would I boast about them on a public forum where my identity is easily recognisable? Heh? ;)

[yuon]

If I had done any actions, would I boast about them on a public forum where my identity is easily recognisable? Heh? ;)

Yes, notice how I said you just needed to have said you had done something? Not to actually tell me the details?
"You don't need to tell us what you did, it's enough (at least for me), for you to say you have done something worthwhile. "

But yes, security culture and all that.

[Dimentio]

To return to the subject at hand, I do not think that political actions classify themselves as progressive only by being actions. While I clearly sympathise with a cleaner environment, I think ELF is mostly hurting the environmentalist cause. The only organisation of that style which I respect is Sea Shepherd. There we could talk about tough people.

[Outinleftfield]

The thing embarassing here is bcbm's apologism for bored people and radical primitivists. Do not try to claim that ELF and ALF are not inspired by anarcho-primitivist thinking.

Most anarchists dont take primitivism seriously. In fact most of us are excited by the possibility of automation freeing us from a great deal of labor.

[bcbm]

The thing embarassing here is bcbm's apologism for bored people and radical primitivists.

I'm not sure how clarifying what something is and the tenets it is operating under is "apologism?" I made a fairly detailed post pointing out that you don't know what you're talking about. Do you have an actual response, or just this crap?


Do not try to claim that ELF and ALF are not inspired by anarcho-primitivist thinking.

How can a banner for actions requiring three simple conditions, none of which have anything to do with primitivism, be much more complicated than that? The ALF existed long before anything we would consider "primitivism," and was born out of movements having vastly different priorities. Certainly some primitivists have praised or been involved in the ELF, but there is no "organization" called ELF and all it is is a banner for action whose only ideology is to inflict economic damage for causing environmental damage- not even a primitivist aim!


The only organisation of that style which I respect is Sea Shepherd. There we could talk about tough people.

How is going and fucking up whalers fundamentally different from going and fucking up ski resort developers?

[Incendiarism]

If an AM tower falls in the woods and nobody heard or saw it, did it really fall?

[Saorsa]

The ELF have real guts and take real risks, leftists just whine and fantasize and play it safe, so no wonder leftists feel a need to discredit them. Put yourself on the line first and then talk about improper target selection, m'kay?


This action is fucking stupid. And before we start going down the ridiculous path of "these people have done so much more than you/suffered so much more than you" etc, I was expelled from university for burning my country's flag, failed my entire semester with no refund and was essentially fined several thousand dollars. It ain't much, but it's something - just because I'm not a primmie who gets a hard on by dressing up in black, putting on a balaclava and performing some completely ineffectual and politically empty stunt does not mean I'm not prepared to walk the walk.

Even if this was "pissed off locals" that doesn''t change the fact that this was a stupid thing to do. Radio is a great invention and an all round fantastic thing, and one that the revolutionary left should use to get our message out. Anyone who thinks that rather than doing that we should go around blowing up radio towers is an idiot.

[bcbm]

before we start going down the ridiculous path of "these people have done so much more than you/suffered so much more than you" etc, I was expelled from university for burning my country's flag, failed my entire semester with no refund and was essentially fined several thousand dollars.

Brutal.


just because I'm not a primmie who gets a hard on by dressing up in black, putting on a balaclava and performing some completely ineffectual and politically empty stunt does not mean I'm not prepared to walk the walk.

When was the last time anybody tried to put a bunch of your best friends in jail for decades?


Even if this was "pissed off locals" that doesn''t change the fact that this was a stupid thing to do. Radio is a great invention and an all round fantastic thing, and one that the revolutionary left should use to get our message out. Anyone who thinks that rather than doing that we should go around blowing up radio towers is an idiot.

This action wasn't against radio, for fuck's sake.

[Coggeh]

The ELF have real guts and take real risks, leftists just whine and fantasize and play it safe, so no wonder leftists feel a need to discredit them. Put yourself on the line first and then talk about improper target selection, m'kay?
Yes because those leftists who are in revolutionary organisations that actually organise the working class to bring about a movement actually capable of bringing read change are actually ...just playing it safe. :blushing:

[Saorsa]

Brutal.I thought it was.


When was the last time anybody tried to put a bunch of your best friends in jail for decades?2007, when the New Zealand state arrested activists (mostly anarchists and Maori nationalists) up and down the country on phoney 'terror' charges. Most of them are still facing charges.


This action wasn't against radio, for fuck's sake. Lol, it was just against the towers that make radio possible. Not against radio... :lol:

[Revy]

Someone explain to me why I should care about a radio tower falling as if the left committed some huge tragedy here?

Are we pacifist when it comes only to metal towers?

[ls]

Several Hummer dealerships have been targetting by the ELF.

I think that this really points out ELF's actions remaining in the pointless rather than the left, but whatever, there is no ELF. :cool:

[Rusty Shackleford]

No matter how small the action it is still an action. think of it like finding pennies on the ground and keeping them. over a while they add up.

Also, they represent other ideas and have different priorities. But if they start toppling power lines then i have a problem because it disrupts social function. and pisses many people of to a great degree. food could spoil, phones couldnt work, lights would be out.

Dont dream of being the revolutionary with a red flag in one hand and a rifle in the other. things take time. it succeeded in costing a company money. Also, this action may help to "embolden" other potential radicals to do some minor sabotage.


But their energy could be put elsewhere. its how they decided to use it.

[Black Dagger]

Dimentio - Please include some kind of content to your posts beyond political insult, otherwise it's just spam/trolling:


The thing embarassing here is bcbm's apologism for bored people and radical primitivists. Do not try to claim that ELF and ALF are not inspired by anarcho-primitivist thinking.

TBH i find the lack of critical thought applied by many in this thread to be much more distrubing; for starters, the first person to say 'anarchist' or to make some mention of primitivism as some component of this action or the ideology of those involved (i'm embarrassed for you). This kind of 'leftist' sensationalism is the real shame, all bcbm has done is calmly and articulately assert facts - explaining what the ELF is and is not, as well as suggesting who the likely saboteurs were (i.e. not anarcho/'primmies') and why they did the action.

But yeah, these sorts of threads are always torturous - adding something like the 'ELF' into the mix just adds another facet ('stupid anarcho primmies'! <--- abridged version of standard reply) to the predictable righteous indignation, 'this is not class politics!' 'boo!' I can understand not seeing the utility in this or that action (though i'm not sure why every action has to have some large significance as opposed to local aims?) I myself don't really understand what the deal is here, though i assume it made more sense in whatever county it happened to take place in. However, most people don't seem capable of debating that without recourse to political insult ('apologist!') or off-topic attacks (linking anything with the word 'earth' in the title to 'primmies' or any direct action they disagree with, 'fucking anarchists'!'), like any RAAN thread. It's sad because debating the purpose and use of tactics, as well as understanding them, is actually important/meaningful; but it can't be done in such a hostile atmosphere.

[bcbm]

Lol, it was just against the towers that make radio possible. Not against radio...

Its already been made pretty clear in this thread what the motivations for this action were and they were not against radio. If you're not going to even learn the basics of the event, how can you comment on it?

[Saorsa]

It's the politics of NIMBY taken to radical extremes. Is the ELF going to go knock down some wind turbines? They probably cause more stress to and resentment from the locals around where they are.

[yuon]

If someone knocks down a wind-turbine and leaves a note saying "ELF", then I guess the "ELF" are knocking down wind-turbines...

So, you do realise that ELF is just people doing stuff with that name?

[Saorsa]

So, you do realise that ELF is just people doing stuff with that name?

Of course I realise it. What I'm struggle to understand is why anyone bothered to post a report on this ridiculous stunt and why some people are still praising it.

[KC]

It's the politics of NIMBY taken to radical extremes. Is the ELF going to go knock down some wind turbines?

This is completely off topic, but companies in Wisconsin interested in constructing wind turbines are actually moving out of state (most to Illinois or Indiana) because the Wisconsin DNR's strict regulations on the construction of them (mostly due to the killing of endangered bird species that fly into them) have held up construction on these projects for as long as a decade.


They probably cause more stress to and resentment from the locals around where they are.

Why's that?

[bcbm]

It's the politics of NIMBY taken to radical extremes.

If people don't want a large construction project that may have negative consequences for them built in their immediate vicinity, and decide to do something about it, what's the problem? Why does the state and its corporate sponsors have the right to disregard community interests?


They probably cause more stress to and resentment from the locals around where they are.


Why is it so implausible that they could be locals?

[yuon]

Of course I realise it. What I'm struggle to understand is why anyone bothered to post a report on this ridiculous stunt and why some people are still praising it.

I didn't notice anyone praising this action actually. I can see people refusing to condemn it, or even attempting to explain it, but hardly "praising" it.

[Saorsa]

Why's that?

The usual arguments tend to revolve around killing birds, spoiling the scenery and noise. Everyone gets very worked up about them over here.

[KC]

The usual arguments tend to revolve around killing birds, spoiling the scenery and noise. Everyone gets very worked up about them over here.

I've heard the birds thing, but only from the DNR, as I've said. I didn't realize that locals would even be concerned with that. I could see the scenery issue, too, but are they really that noisy?

[Saorsa]

I remember reading someone who claimed it was like having a 24/7 dance party going on down the road. :lol:

[Robocommie]

I've never found wind turbines to be that noisy, unless you consider a quiet "whoosh" to be noisy. I worked on a wind farm for a while. The thing is, it may not be the nicest thing ever, but it's a clean and endless source of power. Surely, better to have wind turbines than coal or nuclear power?

[Saorsa]

^ I agree. But a lot of people don't, and oppose wind turbines being built around them. If they go and know one down, should we make that out to be some kind of applaudable action?

[KC]

^ I agree. But a lot of people don't, and oppose wind turbines being built around them. If they go and know one down, should we make that out to be some kind of applaudable action?

Who has applauded this action?