Mengistu Haile Mariam----Hero Or Villainous Tyrant?

[Rakhmetov]

The most calumnious slander has been leveled against Mengistu and his allies in Ethiopia by the right-wing reactionaries and petit-bourgoise liberals, who acting in concert, reduced Ethiopia to civil war and brought on the imperialist attack by Somalia, who wished to annex the Ogaden desert region. What are your opinions regarding this matter? Critics assume that Mengistu arose out of a vacuum and that nothing was occuring while he led a rebellion against the autocratic emperor Haile Selassie.

[Yehuda Stern]

Yes, you are right, one can't automatically believe the imperialists when they bash a leader who challenges their power. However, the evidence for the atrocities is pretty overwhelming. Also, keep another thing in mind: back when Mengistu wasn't pro-Soviet, the Cuban Stalinist regime supported the Eritrean liberation movement. When Mengistu became an ally of the USSR, they switched to his side. From this we can learn not only about Castro's opportunism but that the Stalinists never considered him progressive before it was politically comfortable.

[Invader Zim]

False.

"In their references to Ethiopia they manage to omit entirely any mention of the social revolution which has swept away a thousand year old feudal system in that country, and claim, without any evidence, that the Cuban government sacrificed 'without the least hesitation' the interests of the Eritrean liberation movement. In fact there have been many signs not only of Cuban 'hesitation' but of Cuban abstention from, and opposition to, the military campaigns waged by the Dergue in Eritrea. This has been acknowledged by the ELF." - Class forces in the Cuban Revolution by Robin Blackburn (http://www.marxists.de/statecap/cuba/robinb.htm)

But, as you have told us, any historical narrative written in a class divided society isn't trust worthy. Why can we believe your link?

[willdw79]

Yes, you are right, one can't automatically believe the imperialists when they bash a leader who challenges their power. However, the evidence for the atrocities is pretty overwhelming. Also, keep another thing in mind: back when Mengistu wasn't pro-Soviet, the Cuban Stalinist regime supported the Eritrean liberation movement. When Mengistu became an ally of the USSR, they switched to his side. From this we can learn not only about Castro's opportunism but that the Stalinists never considered him progressive before it was politically comfortable.
Yehuda says: "the Cuban Stalinist regime"

I say: Cuba was not Stalinist. They received aid/training etc from the Soviets and China. Castro and Ce both criticized the soviets for not being radical enough at the time.

Is "Stalinism" the "straw" in all of your "strawmen".

[Bankotsu]

But, as you have told us, any historical narrative written in a class divided society isn't trust worthy. Why can we believe your link?

Not all. It depends on the evidence. But it is true that certain periods of history are completely falsified and truth suppressed in the west.

For example 1930s diplomatic history of europe. Almost all the current narrative is a falsified interpretation of the real events.

[Yehuda Stern]

False.

Are you denying that the Cubans became supporters of Mengistu when he became an ally of the USSR? If not, then any lip service they still payed to Eritrean liberation doesn't really change the fact that they betrayed that cause, much like many imperialists "criticize" certain actions of the Zionists.


Cuba was not Stalinist. They received aid/training etc from the Soviets and China. Castro and Ce both criticized the soviets for not being radical enough at the time.

And then proceeded to be their closest allies outside their satellite states and support their suppression of the Hungarian workers in 1968. Such criticism is, like their criticism of Mengistu, just lip service to fool leftist cheerleaders of theirs.


Is "Stalinism" the "straw" in all of your "strawmen".

That is a mischaracterization. I have found in all your posts so far that you simply cling to what seem to you to be contradictions but are really products of your lack of knowledge and understanding of Marxism. I'm sorry of that sounds condescending - I tend to give as good as I get.

[el_chavista]

According to a Cuban source http://www.urrib2000.narod.ru/Etiopia.html


[Before Mengistu] in Somalia, General Mohamed Siad Barre seized power on October 15, 1969 through a coup, and declares his country socialist. In 1974 signed a cooperation treaty with the Soviet Union, increasing military aid to Somalia. About 2,000 Soviet advisers and 50 Cubans arrived to prepare Somalian pilots, reorganize their armed forces and rebuild its air bases...

General Siad Barre had plans to create "Great Somalia", claiming territories of its neighbors Djibouti, Kenya and the Ethiopian province of Ogaden, and the chaos in Ethiopia sharpened these claims. Siad Barre gave a secret military support to the guerrillas of the Liberation Front of Western Somalia (WSLF) in Ogaden...

Before the war, Cuba had tried to mediate between the two parties, both allies of Havana. On April 16, 1977 Fidel Castro met in Aden (Yemen), with Siad Barre and Mengistu Haile Mariam, with the participation of Yemeni President Ali Rubayi. While Mengistu was ready to talk, Siad Barre was intransigent in his expansionist ambitions, confident in his military power, but ultimately promised Castro not to attack Ethiopia. The aggression against Ethiopia after three months, is seen as a great betrayal, and is heavily criticized by Havana and Moscow. Siad Barre broke with them and expelled the Cuban and Soviet advisers

[Yehuda Stern]

Is this supposed to be a reply to me, or to the OP? If the former, then it really lacks a reference to Eritrea as far as I can tell.

[Yehuda Stern]

You claim that Cuba supported one over the other. In reality, Cuba argued for a negotiated end to the dispute between the two.

Trust me, there's enough Stalinists in this country for me to know what a sham a "negotiated end" between oppressor and oppressed looks like.

[Yehuda Stern]

When you try to get the oppressed to make peace with their oppressors, you're on the side of the latter, whatever you say.

[el_chavista]

Is this supposed to be a reply to me, or to the OP? If the former, then it really lacks a reference to Eritrea as far as I can tell.
I'm just trying to gather historic facts. For instance, this wiki quotation makes one think about Eritrea's roll in these wars:

Battle of Afabet March 1988
This victory of the EPLF over the Nadew [Ethiopian] Command is considered by the historian Basil Davidson to be the most significant victory for any liberation movement since the Vietnamese victory at Dien Bien Phu.[5] It has also been described as the largest battle in Africa since El Alamein.[6]The Eritrea's EPLF managed to defeat the larger Ethiopian army with Soviet-Cuban advisers and all. From whom did the EPLF recieved army supplies? The wiki says "by stealing them from the Ethiopians".

[Yehuda Stern]

What's your point?

[el_chavista]

My point is that Mengistu Haile Mariam didn't have the chance to spread his "red terror" on Eritrea. The EFPL was too strong, supported by Somalia, other Arab countries, and, perhaps, even the USA to the point of being able to develope a regular war against Ethiopia.

[Dimentio]

All tyrants are someone's hero.

Moreover, was it not a major starvation disaster during this man's reign which killed hundreds of thousands, while he used aid to wage war against rebels? I think that sounds like what yet another typical autocrat would do.