Could We Unite

[willdw79]

I would like to see more organizations find common ground. My rationale for this is that if there were a revolution in the U.S. it must be dynamic. By that I mean it must have the ability to change its line with new evidence. As a revolutionary movement grows and forces the political landscape to change, the revolutionary organizations must adjust to these changes or face becoming irrelevant.

I won't be too detailed but you can see it in some of the late 60ss-early 70ss organizations. When the war in Vietnam drew down, their sizes dwindled in many cases. We should not make that mistake again. In our next opportunity, I think that the anarchists, Old Left Movements, New Left Movements, and all other progressives that share these 7 common goals should unite. To be clear, I am saying that ONLY groups/individuals who share these 7 common goals should unite, not reactionaries or democrats or anything like that.

1. Eliminate Sexism
2. Eliminate Attacks Against Homosexuals
3. Eliminate Money Immediately After Revolution
4. Eliminate Racism
5. Revolutionaries observe NO CAPITALIST BORDERS & MAKE NO DEALS WITH CAPITALISTS EVER!
6. Use the means of production to produce as much as possible (overproduce) until a basic level for all has been achieved
7. No more wars for imperialism

I believe that there are enough groups/people that can agree on these 7 things to become a significant force in the U.S. However, arguing over how the future revolution will be should not be so divisive.

No party knows exactly how things will be. And if we combined forces, some people who are in a particular organization may take a liking to a different one and that is O.K. We need political exposure to other leftists, not cults! Only a cult is afraid to lose members to another organization. And only a leader with something to hide will advise against understanding other organizations. As progressives/anarchists/communists, it is in our best interest to see so called "competing ideas" as something to learn from.

So many groups are positive forces in my opinion. I am not a Trotskyist, but many of the Trotskyists that I have spoken with have a lot of cogent, well-thought out points to make. Many anarchists, the same. NONE of the democrats or republicans that I have come in contact with agree with us further than "racism/sexism" are wrong, and I don't even think they believe that!

If you study revolutions and how they occur, I think that you will find that they are ideologically messy. No matter how in lock-step your group is about the tiniest revolutionary detail, by the time the revolution begins you will think differently. In the middle, the end, and post-revolution ideas of individuals and groups will be turned on their heads by experience. So, it is with that in mind that I propose we revolutionaries unite and argue in favor of our common positions.

Of course there will be disagreements, but as we can see from studying the dynamism of the arguments of leftist groups in the past, everyone's mind is constantly changing! However, the seven basic ideas that I pointed out are by no means shared by all of us, but the ones who do share them probably will never stray from them, the exact details of the post-revolutionary and post-revolution will be made up as we go along, whether we like it or not. The events that will determine our course have not happened yet and looking at past revolutions while helpful, cannot generate a model for the next revolution, only clues.

So, I wonder if there is any support for unity under this banner?

[robbo203]

I would like to see more organizations find common ground. My rationale for this is that if there were a revolution in the U.S. it must be dynamic. By that I mean it must have the ability to change its line with new evidence. As a revolutionary movement grows and forces the political landscape to change, the revolutionary organizations must adjust to these changes or face becoming irrelevant.

I won't be too detailed but you can see it in some of the late 60ss-early 70ss organizations. When the war in Vietnam drew down, their sizes dwindled in many cases. We should not make that mistake again. In our next opportunity, I think that the anarchists, Old Left Movements, New Left Movements, and all other progressives that share these 7 common goals should unite. To be clear, I am saying that ONLY groups/individuals who share these 7 common goals should unite, not reactionaries or democrats or anything like that.

1. Eliminate Sexism
2. Eliminate Attacks Against Homosexuals
3. Eliminate Money Immediately After Revolution
4. Eliminate Racism
5. Revolutionaries observe NO CAPITALIST BORDERS & MAKE NO DEALS WITH CAPITALISTS EVER!
6. Use the means of production to produce as much as possible (overproduce) until a basic level for all has been achieved
7. No more wars for imperialism

I believe that there are enough groups/people that can agree on these 7 things to become a significant force in the U.S. However, arguing over how the future revolution will be should not be so divisive.

No party knows exactly how things will be. And if we combined forces, some people who are in a particular organization may take a liking to a different one and that is O.K. We need political exposure to other leftists, not cults! Only a cult is afraid to lose members to another organization. And only a leader with something to hide will advise against understanding other organizations. As progressives/anarchists/communists, it is in our best interest to see so called "competing ideas" as something to learn from.

So many groups are positive forces in my opinion. I am not a Trotskyist, but many of the Trotskyists that I have spoken with have a lot of cogent, well-thought out points to make. Many anarchists, the same. NONE of the democrats or republicans that I have come in contact with agree with us further than "racism/sexism" are wrong, and I don't even think they believe that!

If you study revolutions and how they occur, I think that you will find that they are ideologically messy. No matter how in lock-step your group is about the tiniest revolutionary detail, by the time the revolution begins you will think differently. In the middle, the end, and post-revolution ideas of individuals and groups will be turned on their heads by experience. So, it is with that in mind that I propose we revolutionaries unite and argue in favor of our common positions.

Of course there will be disagreements, but as we can see from studying the dynamism of the arguments of leftist groups in the past, everyone's mind is constantly changing! However, the seven basic ideas that I pointed out are by no means shared by all of us, but the ones who do share them probably will never stray from them, the exact details of the post-revolutionary and post-revolution will be made up as we go along, whether we like it or not. The events that will determine our course have not happened yet and looking at past revolutions while helpful, cannot generate a model for the next revolution, only clues.

So, I wonder if there is any support for unity under this banner?


What you are basically saying here is sound but I think it is bit patchy if you dont mind me saying this. For example, you could say something more about the role of class or the nature of a post revolutionary society as a stated objective. The group that I belong to - World in Common - has a not dissimilar approach in stressing the commonalities that unite the various strands of thinking in the non-market anti-statist political sector

[willdw79]

See, I am trying to stay away from post-revolution ideas because it gets sticky. Honestly, I have some, some very strong ones, but I tend to think that over the years, my mind will change. Also, just about any way of life that embraces those 7 thing is good enough for me and an enormous step forward. I will be satisfied with it.

[robbo203]

See, I am trying to stay away from post-revolution ideas because it gets sticky. Honestly, I have some, some very strong ones, but I tend to think that over the years, my mind will change. Also, just about any way of life that embraces those 7 thing is good enough for me and an enormous step forward. I will be satisfied with it.

I am not too sure this a wise step - avoiding discussion of the nature of a post revolutionary society. I think you do need to have some basic idea of the fundamental structural features of the the kind of society you aspire to bring about. It is not going to just happen automatically independently of consciousness but only theough workers wanting it and knowing what it entails. Sure we can disagree on some of the details. But on the basics there needs to be agreement

[The Bear]

naaaahhh

[willdw79]

I am not too sure this a wise step - avoiding discussion of the nature of a post revolutionary society. I think you do need to have some basic idea of the fundamental structural features of the the kind of society you aspire to bring about. It is not going to just happen automatically independently of consciousness but only theough workers wanting it and knowing what it entails. Sure we can disagree on some of the details. But on the basics there needs to be agreement
I feel you. I will develop that more. Also, I went to the website that you suggested. Looks good, will read more.

Also, I am not saying that discussion cannot occur, but it should not be so destructive that we cannot pursue revolution together. I said, "Of course there will be disagreements, but as we can see from studying the dynamism of the arguments of leftist groups in the past, everyone's mind is constantly changing! However, the seven basic ideas that I pointed out are by no means shared by all of us, but the ones who do share them probably will never stray from them, the exact details of the post-revolutionary and post-revolution will be made up as we go along, whether we like it or not. The events that will determine our course have not happened yet".

I just would like to devalue the amount of emphasis organizations put on prognosticating (that includes my own prognosticating).
I have strong views about what the world should be like after a revolution, I have a revolutionary vision, however, I know for a fact that the actual act of revolutionary struggle will change everyone profoundly!

What I am trying to convey is that just because the RCP dude says that he supports the CPN(M) and not some other party and that he visualizes x, y, and Z in the future, that we can't ally on common ground. I agree that political ideas are significant. However, the actual revolutionary struggle and conditions at the time of revolution will shape the revolution much more than any professed point of view before a revolutionary movement has begun.

Therfore we can begin a united struggle for revolution without having a perfectly agreed upon vision of the post-revolution world.

The factionalism within the left is so intense that we can get hardly any momentum toward revolution going at times in terms of a mass organization that agrees with the 7 things that I pointed out, although there are many millions of us who believe them.

I tend to think strongly that the things which divide groups i.e. I hear people say stuff like a certain group uses the word "superexploitation" therfore they are (you fill in the blank) or "they are revisionist", therfore they are reactionaries etc. Meanwhile the group that uses the word superexploitation has a reasonable Marxist point they are trying to make by using the word and the other group claims to be revolutionary and not revisionist. We have all of these petty divisions. I think the process of securing those 7 things (perhaps I should add fascism) through a revolutionary struggle would generate new lines that will be more applicable than anything we are thinking of now.

I hold firmly on my belief that any group's model of a post-revolution society will be very far from the real post-revolution society. That's not to say that we should not talk about how society should be, but the talk (prognosticating) should be couched in a realistic vision of post-revolutionary society which is unpredictable.

Thanks.