Prejudiced language (split)

[Bloody Armalite]

no but i was not discriminating, it has more meanings than a slur for handicapped people, and seeing as i have a cousin with down syndrome, i hate it when he is tormented, but in this instance using the word retarded is perfectly reasonable so stop creating tension and lighten up you joyless bastard:):D
Seriously though, i am sorry if it offended anyone, but it was not intended to and i dont think i needed to explain myself, but i have done anyway.

[OneNamedNameLess]

Great to see how everybody here has a good grasp of fighting discrimination. Its not petty or bureaucratic, unless you want to be given warning points by the admin team. If you're actually sincere about liberation of discrimination you'd think twice before using such words. Fighting prejudice isn't something you an 'switch off'.

Most peole don't mean it in that sense though. It is used daily to describe things and most of the time it os not used to make fun of those with disabilities. I understand the CC's position on it, the user who you addressed does not as he just joined no more than two days ago. It depends in which context you use a word. I will continue to use the 'R' word in my daily life in the same way I use the words shit, crap, etc, etc. I can do this and still be sincere about 'liberation of discrimination'.

[Sam_b]

Again, you do not have the monopoly on what is or not offensive.

AnCap - I imagine you'll keep using this word anyway, even though you know its a tired and ridiculous excuse to say that it wasn't meant 'as prejudice'. It doesn't matter, and I continue to be bewildered at so-called leftists who will defend prejudiced language, both this and 'c***' because it apparently doesn't affect their position on women's liberation. Its ridiculous - and not a surprise that the man proponents of continued use of predudiced language comes from young, white men.

[OneNamedNameLess]

continued use of predudiced language comes from young, white men.

What? Are you fucking serious? What nonsense. Why are dragging race into this? Where is your evidence to suggest that prejudiced language is mainly continued by young white males? I take it you are familiar with the hip-hop scene and genre? I rest my case.

Listen, some of my Indian friends at uni still refer to people with down syndrome as 'Mongos'. They don't mean anything by this. They are from a more rural part of the country which is culturally different from the UK. Think how they would feel if I went mental at them for using the word. I does depend on the context in which the words are used. The whole onslaught on political correctness by the right has been triggered and intensified due to shit like this. The word can have offensive connotations if you employ it in that manner. There are more urgent systemic issues regarding discrimination than a few words. All of this taboo on certain words only gets under people's skin and causes paranoia and mistrust. We can't crack down on people who use apparently offensive words as it will only encourage them to use those words more to retaliate.

[Sam_b]

The point is that young white men will continue to perpetuate and use words like this because they are not oppressed in terms of social discrimination - surely that is something that you cannot argue against. The rest of the post is merely pinning blame on other sections for being 'just as bad' when you yourself should know better. The last sentence is just laughable.

[OneNamedNameLess]

The point is that young white men will continue to perpetuate and use words like this because they are not oppressed in terms of social discrimination - surely that is something that you cannot argue against. The rest of the post is merely pinning blame on other sections for being 'just as bad' when you yourself should know better. The last sentence is just laughable.

What about young gay racist men? I could really play with your logic if I wanted to. Why is my last sentence laughable? Taboo on all of these perceived offensive words wont help. Is it helping now? No. It has gave the far right more to campaign about. Don't deny this, we are all witnessing it. What I am saying is, we are not the allmighty enforcers of equality. The word has negative connotations if it as used in such a manner and varies culturally, geographically, and so on. Why should I know better than people from rural India? I am in no way superior to them.

[Sam_b]

What about young gay racist men?

I agree.


Why is my last sentence laughable? Taboo on all of these perceived offensive words wont help. Is it helping now? No. It has gave the far right more to campaign about. Don't deny this, we are all witnessing it.

First of all, thats bullshit. Second of all, you are missing the point completely. The point is that by our own actions and class-consciousness spreading we show exactly why such discriminatory language should not be tolerated. The far-right has nothing to do with this - we are not here to appease the far-right. Just because you say that you are not being prejudiced does not stop the word, or the meaning from being prejudiced. It also shows a ridiculous hypocrisy in my view - that sexism or mocking disabilities is somehow acceptable by the use of r*tard or c*nt, but i'm sure you would be as disgusted as I would if someone was going to argue this for p*ki and n*gger.


we are not the allmighty enforcers of equality

This is not defined and a non-argument. We are revolutionaries and inherently internationalist. You don't have to be black, Asian, a woman, LGBTQ to be offended or take a stand against social discrimination.

[Il Medico]

Most peole don't mean it in that sense though. It is used daily to describe things and most of the time it os not used to make fun of those with disabilities. I understand the CC's position on it, the user who you addressed does not as he just joined no more than two days ago. It depends in which context you use a word. I will continue to use the 'R' word in my daily life in the same way I use the words shit, crap, etc, etc. I can do this and still be sincere about 'liberation of discrimination'.
People also use fag in everyday terminology to describe homosexuals. This despite the fact that fag refers to burning homosexuals at the stake. Or take the way the word gay is used. It overtime became a byword for a homosexual, and is now often used to mean something that is stupid, shitty, or just plain bad. This shows deep societal homophobia that is utterly appalling. The same goes for 'retarded'. It is a word taken from an actually mental disability (Mental retardation, although I think they have renamed it now) and used to mean 'stupid' or 'dumb'. The fact that words like retard, gay, and fag are used the way they are in the common lingo is just evidence of how prejudiced our society is. Just because something is common does not mean it is right to say it, nor does it make it any less bigoted.

[OneNamedNameLess]

[QUOTE=Sam_b;1535055]First of all, thats bullshit. Second of all, you are missing the point completely. The point is that by our own actions and class-consciousness spreading we show exactly why such discriminatory language should not be tolerated. The far-right has nothing to do with this - we are not here to appease the far-right. Just because you say that you are not being prejudiced does not stop the word, or the meaning from being prejudiced. It also shows a ridiculous hypocrisy in my view - that sexism or mocking disabilities is somehow acceptable by the use of r*tard or c*nt, but i'm sure you would be as disgusted as I would if someone was going to argue this for p*ki and n*gger. QUOTE]

We do do that. However, we cannot enforce which words are acceptable and which are not on people. As for your point on the words 'paki' and 'nigger', they are normally used in a racist manner. On the other hand, lots of elderly people still use these words. If they say them in front of me, then I am surely not going to confront them for it. A lot of people use these words in a non racist manner particularly older folk as they were not subjected to the same laws as we are. For instance, round my way lots of people say the 'paki shop' and are not in any way racist plus, they are usually on good terms with the workers in the shop. Why should they be prevented from saying this if they don't mean it that way? Folk call my dad a 'tally' all the time. This is discriminatory as Italians faced a great deal of prejudice when they came to Glasgow years back and the word was used to insult and undermine them much like the word 'nigger'. Once again, I would rather focus less on this and more on systemic forms of discrimination.

[OneNamedNameLess]

People also use fag in everyday terminology to describe homosexuals. This despite the fact that fag that it refers to burning homosexuals at the stake. Or take the way the word gay is used. It overtime became a byword for a homosexual, and is now often used to mean something that is stupid, shitty, or just plain bad. This shows deep societal homophobia that is utterly appalling. The same goes for 'retarded'. It is a word taken from an actually mental disability (Mental retardation, although I think they have renamed it now) and used to mean 'stupid' or 'dumb'. The fact that words like retard, gay, and fag are used the way they are in the common lingo is just evidence of how prejudiced our society is. Just because something is common does not mean it is right to say it, nor does it make it any less bigoted.

However, now people do not use it in that context so why should we get flustered when people use it in a non discriminatory manner? The meaning of words change over time. By cracking up about it we are only continuing the trend.

[Sam_b]

We do do that. However, we cannot enforce which words are acceptable and which are not on people.

Who said anything about 'force'? Like I already said we have to show that these words are not acceptable. What you seem to be saying in my mind is that you're not prejudiced, you just feel fine using prejudiced language.


On the other hand, lots of elderly people still use these words. If they say them in front of me, then I am surely not going to confront them for it.

Why the hell not?


A lot of people use these words in a non racist manner

The use of the word is inherently racist.


For instance, round my way lots of people say the 'paki shop' and are not in any way racist plus, they are usually on good terms with the workers in the shop.

So what? I don't see why you are so dead-set on defending racist terminology.

The point is that this is one of the most important facets to concentrate on. Why do you think there is so much discrimination in today's society? Because these sort of terms are deemed, at least by some, as being socially acceptable and not prejudiced; and all you are doing is defending this. These words are discriminatory, stop excusing them. Its not about 'cracking up' - its about taking a principled revolutionary line.

[OneNamedNameLess]

The point is that this is one of the most important facets to concentrate on. Why do you think there is so much discrimination in today's society? Because these sort of terms are deemed, at least by some, as being socially acceptable and not prejudiced; and all you are doing is defending this. These words are discriminatory, stop excusing them. Its not about 'cracking up' - its about taking a principled revolutionary line.

Once again, they are not discriminatory if they are not employed that way. People should be able to use whatever words they feel like as long as they are not attempting to cause any harm. Why should I tell a pensioner who has used the woed 'paki' all of his/her life to stop using it if they never mean it as an offence? People should chill out about the use of words as a form of discrmination. It is socially acceptable to refer to an African as black. However, it can be used in such a way that is prejudiced and it's meaning can change completely.

Why am I focusing so much on this? Because on Revleft some users are far too paranoid and over enthusiastic. I'm sick of seeing it. I actually find it more offensive that some people support the Taliban as they are fighting imperialism while ignoring what the Taliban did as an organisation to their people :rolleyes: It is totally acceptable to support a sexist, homophobic, oppressive group such as the Taliban or Hamas as they are fighting imperialism, but it is not ok to use words which are apparently offensive to homosexuals or women :confused:

[Sam_b]

Once again, they are not discriminatory if they are not employed that way

They are - the word is inherantly racist. You are arguing exactly what many argued in the early 20th century about the word n*gger - because it became socially acceptable in the very same way you are describing it now.


Why should I tell a pensioner who has used the woed 'paki' all of his/her life to stop using it if they never mean it as an offence?

Because it's racist - its not too hard to grasp why. It saddens me that a (supposed) revolutionary leftist is defending racism. I don't care how you dress it up, that is exactly what you are doing. It is not good enough, nay ridiculous, that the person using such language has the absolute monopoly on whether or not it is discriminatory.

Revolutionaries should be arguing down the use of prejudiced language, not entrenching and excusing it.

[Il Medico]

However, now people do not use it in that context so why should we get flustered when people use it in a non discriminatory manner? The meaning of words change over time. By cracking up about it we are only continuing the trend.
The context that is now being used is a direct result of bigot opinions about certain groups. The fact that people no longer think they are insulting homosexuals what they refer to bad stuff as 'gay' doesn't mean it is not still insulting. You don't eliminate bigoted language by telling people it's okay to use it as long as they 'didn't mean it that way'.

[Nwoye]

as for the word "retarded", to "retard" literally means to slow down or obstruct, so something which is "retarded" is something whose development has been obstructed or delayed in some way. so if I said "that was retarded" I'm saying that the thought process behind that action or statement was obstructed or delayed in some way, and that for this reason the statement is stupid or whatever given the context.

[Mujer Libre]

as for the word "retarded", to "retard" literally means to slow down or obstruct, so something which is "retarded" is something whose development has been obstructed or delayed in some way. so if I said "that was retarded" I'm saying that the thought process behind that action or statement was obstructed or delayed in some way, and that for this reason the statement is stupid or whatever given the context.

That's ridiculous, and clearly a falsified thought process. The way the word is used is CLEARLY a reference to referring to mentally disabled people as retarded and conflating that with anything that is "bad" or "fucked up." Nobody uses it with the original meaning in mind, except in contexts where it isn't used as a perjorative.

Your argument is like saying that it's okay to use "gay" or "faggot" as insults because they originally had different meanings, and you're using them in that context- despite the fact that their meaning is universally understood differently.

[Nwoye]

That's ridiculous, and clearly a falsified thought process. The way the word is used is CLEARLY a reference to referring to mentally disabled people as retarded and conflating that with anything that is "bad" or "fucked up." Nobody uses it with the original meaning in mind, except in contexts where it isn't used as a perjorative.

Your argument is like saying that it's okay to use "gay" or "faggot" as insults because they originally had different meanings, and you're using them in that context- despite the fact that their meaning is universally understood differently.
well the word developed the other way around. it was originally a used in the way I described and was then later on used to characterize someone who is mentally disabled.

[Radical]

"Retard" is offensive in the same sense as any other so-called "slur". It is only offensive when used in an offensive context.

[Il Medico]

"Retard" is offensive in the same sense as any other so-called "slur". It is only offensive when used in an offensive context.
http://www.justinbuist.org/blog/images/polar-bear-face-palm_thumbnail.jpg
Did you even read the other posts? Stop spouting off the idiotic shit that pours out of your mouth without any thought on the actual meaning of the words, or how they gained their current context. Although considering who I am addressing, asking this would be tantamount to asking the sun not to rise.

[Mujer Libre]

well the word developed the other way around. it was originally a used in the way I described and was then later on used to characterize someone who is mentally disabled.

I think you missed my point entirely- i.e. that he word is universally used these days to mean someone who is mentally disabled- therefore when you sue it as an insult, that is how it is understood.

Much like the word gay once meant 'happy,' but is now synonymous with homosexual. Therefore, you can't use 'gay' as an insult and claim that you mean ... i don't know "idiotically happy" and that you're not being homophobic.

Not sure how I can be any clearer.

[bcbm]

Listen, some of my Indian friends at uni still refer to people with down syndrome as 'Mongos'. They don't mean anything by this. They are from a more rural part of the country which is culturally different from the UK. Think how they would feel if I went mental at them for using the word.

Yeah, those dumb fucking Indian hicks, why would they care about discriminatory words?


The word can have offensive connotations if you employ it in that manner.

And what employment wouldn't be offensive exactly?


There are more urgent systemic issues regarding discrimination than a few words.

Do you need a map to be drawn between women being called ****s and getting paid less than men or something? These are not seperate issues.


All of this taboo on certain words only gets under people's skin and causes paranoia and mistrust.

Yeah, privileged people not being able to call black people niggers and gay people faggots and women ****s and *****es, etc, etc is pretty harsh and must really get under their skin.


We can't crack down on people who use apparently offensive words as it will only encourage them to use those words more to retaliate.

Crack down? What the fuck are you talking about? We don't crack down, we just fucking talk to people, like we would any other of our political positions.