Idiots .... Stop buying Che T shirts

[Bloody Armalite]

Students keep buying Che Guevara T shirts, why are they so stupid, why do they make him a consumerist cash cow and themselves buy a shirt with a symbol of rebelion, wich makes them conform to consumerism as soon as they buy it, thus making buying a Che T shirt utterly pointless and hypocrytical
Confess Comrades, have you ever been stupid enought to buy one.
None of your sins will be forgiven as i am not a priest.
I understand there is such a thing as too young:).

[Robocommie]

You're on quite the war path today, aren't you?

Is there, out of curiosity, any greater crime associated with buying a shirt or other item associated with Che, than with buying any other item produced by the capitalist mode of production?

Aesthetics and symbolism is important for any movement, Marxism is no different. While I'd like to be able to buy Marxist shirts without also buying into capitalism, there is really no way to do so. If the shirt was not printed by capitalists, then the fabric was most surely dyed or woven by them, if it was not, then most surely the cotton was grown and processed by them.

We ain't kidding when we say they control the means of production.

[h0m0revolutionary]

I tinhk buying a Che shirt is exactly the same as buying a blue shirt with yellow polkadots, it doens't matter. As long as you're not under the illusion you're helping the class by buying it, or propagandising when you wear it.

[Bloody Armalite]

my point is that he would not want his face on a shirt, he said all the glory in the world can fit into a grain of rice.
This Che worship is making him a hero to people who dont even know what he stood for.
But yes also because he has been turned into a consumerists wet dream

[Panda Tse Tung]

Well, it's free propaganda. Stop *****ing.
Their making it for us. And even if it's just 1 kid wondering who this guy on all these t-shirts is. It's still plenty for me not to complain about it. But of course free propaganda is bad, because... (fill in air)

[Robocommie]

Also, wearing a Che t-shirt is a good way to flip the bird to jack-ass capitalists who feel that wearing a Che t-shirt is a "moral crime."

Also: Fuck Cuban-American Republicans.

[Andrei Kuznetsov]

I do something far more radical and daunting: I wear Mao shirts instead of Che shirts. It makes a bolder statement, pisses off revisionists, and gets a lot of good comments from native Chinese.

[Charles Xavier]

blank

[apawllo]

I can't say I've ever owned/bought/worn one, nor do I really have an issue with them, but I will say that I find it slightly annoying when I see a kid wearing a Che t-shirt with Nike Dunks, skinny jeans, and a trendy hat. It's pretty obvious that kid likely has no clue who Che was or what he stood for, but is probably wearing the shirt because he thinks Che's face is a fashion label or something.

P.S. No offense to anyone here who wears any of the above mentioned clothing items.

[☭World Views]

You're on quite the war path today, aren't you?

Is there, out of curiosity, any greater crime associated with buying a shirt or other item associated with Che, than with buying any other item produced by the capitalist mode of production?

Aesthetics and symbolism is important for any movement, Marxism is no different. While I'd like to be able to buy Marxist shirts without also buying into capitalism, there is really no way to do so. If the shirt was not printed by capitalists, then the fabric was most surely dyed or woven by them, if it was not, then most surely the cotton was grown and processed by them.

We ain't kidding when we say they control the means of production.

Actually I have a black and red shirt(not a che shirt) woven from an auto-sufficient (campesino) group. (I don't know the English translation) It's not peasantry.

They workers their are in control of their own land and means of production and I got them to make me a shirt from scratch. From the growing of the cotton to the final product. They control their own electricity and water source as well.

I don't think they promote class struggle though, they just want the government and capitalists to stay out of their lives. They don't have a website. They are in rural Colombia somewhere in the mountains.

[Sam_b]

What the hell have skinny jeans got to do with anything? Now you're just generalising, and not very well.

The only Che t-shirt I own is a mashup between his face and Willie Miller, Aberdeen FC's captain when we beat Real Madrid in 1983. VIVA LE DONS!

[Robocommie]

Actually I have a black and red shirt(not a che shirt) woven from an auto-sufficient (campesino) group. (I don't know the English translation) It's not peasantry.

They workers their are in control of their own land and means of production and I got them to make me a shirt from scratch. From the growing of the cotton to the final product. They control their own electricity and water source as well.

I don't think they promote class struggle though, they just want the government and capitalists to stay out of their lives. They don't have a website. They are in rural Colombia somewhere in the mountains.

No shit? Score one for you man, that's a shirt with a story behind it.

[Robocommie]

I am going to buy a Che Shirt today because of you!

Comrade, if you buy two I will purchase one from you and then you will make a profit! ;)

[Sam_b]

if you buy two I will purchase one from you and then you will make a profit!

I fear you have a poor grasp of economics.

[apawllo]

What the hell have skinny jeans got to do with anything? Now you're just generalising, and not very well.

Spending that type of money accessorizing your wardrobe with trendy garb is not helpful in fighting capitalism. I'm sure most people who dress the way that I described are still living off their parents and have no idea what capitalism actually means aside from what they've read in books.

[Comrade B]

A lot of left organizations (this website) sell Che shirts to support themselves...

[gorillafuck]

Students keep buying Che Guevara T shirts, why are they so stupid, why do they make him a consumerist cash cow and themselves buy a shirt with a symbol of rebelion, wich makes them conform to consumerism as soon as they buy it, thus making buying a Che T shirt utterly pointless and hypocrytical
Confess Comrades, have you ever been stupid enought to buy one.
None of your sins will be forgiven as i am not a priest.
I understand there is such a thing as too young:).
I like that you didn't even say "capitalism", you said "consumerism"

[Sam_b]

Spending that type of money accessorizing your wardrobe with trendy garb is not helpful in fighting capitalism. I'm sure most people who dress the way that I described are still living off their parents and have no idea what capitalism actually means aside from what they've read in books.

What an odd statement. Is it apparently counterrevolutionary to look good and wear clothes you like? Of course not - that lifestylist 'boycott capitalism' bollocks has no place whatsoever in the let movement. Yet again stereotypical generalising with absolutely no substance, and one that isn't helpful: these are the people we have to win over to revolutionary ideas.

A point of information is that i'm wearing sinny jeans right now. But hell, my parents must have bought them, eh?

[Enragé]

basicly this is a examplary case of what the situationists dubbed 'recuperation', in this case something (formerly) rebellious is commodified, made part of the system and thus rendered harmless.

[Guerrilla22]

Students keep buying Che Guevara T shirts, why are they so stupid, why do they make him a consumerist cash cow and themselves buy a shirt with a symbol of rebelion, wich makes them conform to consumerism as soon as they buy it, thus making buying a Che T shirt utterly pointless and hypocrytical
Confess Comrades, have you ever been stupid enought to buy one.
None of your sins will be forgiven as i am not a priest.
I understand there is such a thing as too young:).


http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad3/lemond234/vrcac6.png?t=1251825773

[LOLseph Stalin]

I have no interest in buying Che shirts because they're so over-rated. Everybody has them, even reactionaries who either have no idea who the guy is or believe him to be a "mass-murderer" while wearing his image because it "looks cool".

[NecroCommie]

basicly this is a examplary case of what the situationists dubbed 'recuperation', in this case something (formerly) rebellious is commodified, made part of the system and thus rendered harmless.
And as Lenin states in "what is to be done" this is how capitalism non-intentionally waters down revolutionary masses. This is the greatest threath to class war and the way social democrats were born. (yesss! I actually got an excuse to bring Lenin into conversation!)

As to the che-shirts, I can't really say. They really are not that big of a thing here, so they are pretty much worn by true revolutionaries. Actually, now that I think of it I have really only seen those shirts at rallies and demonstrations. More of a popular shirt is simple hammer and sickle, worn by both true revolutionaries and Stalin kiddies.

[apawllo]

What an odd statement. Is it apparently counterrevolutionary to look good and wear clothes you like? Of course not - that lifestylist 'boycott capitalism' bollocks has no place whatsoever in the let movement. Yet again stereotypical generalising with absolutely no substance, and one that isn't helpful: these are the people we have to win over to revolutionary ideas.

A point of information is that i'm wearing sinny jeans right now. But hell, my parents must have bought them, eh?

Winning people over by wearing trendy clothing is not something I'll ever partake in. If a person doesn't respond to real information they'll never be useful to the movement....if there's a need to see a person dressed in cool clothes to join the cause they're not doing it for the right reasons.

If you need to satisfy your capitalist urges by consuming trendy clothing then by all means do so, but don't tell yourself that you're not helping the system to stay afloat. Every time the system feels a bump in the road it strengthens our cause, whether it be a credit crisis, an over-production/under-consumption crisis, stagflation, etc. The more frequent the better.

[Sam_b]

Winning people over by wearing trendy clothing is not something I'll ever partake in. If a person doesn't respond to real information they'll never be useful to the movement, but instead they need to see a person dressed in cool clothes to join the cause they're not doing it for the right reasons.

I didn't say that.


If you need to satisfy your capitalist urges by consuming trendy clothing then by all means do so, but don't tell yourself that you're not helping the system to stay afloat. Every time the system feels a bump in the road it strengthens our cause, whether it be a credit crisis, an over-production/under-consumption crisis, stagflation, etc. The more frequent the better.

NEWSFLASH! NEWSFLASH! You cannot boycott capitalism. You yourself are 'helping the system stay afloat' by using the internet.

[Robocommie]

I fear you have a poor grasp of economics.

Ease up buddy, it was a flippant comment, really not intended to bear any kind of scrutiny.

[apawllo]

I didn't say that.

I misunderstood you then.


NEWSFLASH! NEWSFLASH! You cannot boycott capitalism. You yourself are 'helping the system stay afloat' by using the internet.

I don't act as though I never support the system. I never said that I didn't. At the same time, we don't have to partake in every capitalist activity and purchase every fashionable item just because our pocket books allow it or it looks good. I'm sure there are plenty of people here who justify walking or biking rather than driving places because gas lines the pockets of capitalists among other reasons, for example.

[Sam_b]

So you accept its mainly lifestylism, and you are guilty of judging people on how they dress?

Charming. Someone should move this thread as there really is no substance in it.

[Wanted Man]

I don't act as though I never support the system. I never said that I didn't. At the same time, we don't have to partake in every capitalist activity and purchase every fashionable item just because our pocket books allow it or it looks good. I'm sure there are plenty of people here who justify walking or biking rather than driving places because gas lines the pockets of capitalists among other reasons, for example.

Indeed, you don't have to participate in "every capitalist activity", after all, we workers can't purchase every consumer item in the world. So where do you draw the line? Answer: wherever it doesn't inconvenience you too much, but you still get to be smug about it to people who are not doing anything wrong.

In reality, by making an issue out of the things workers consume, you're only making yourself politically irrelevant.

[apawllo]

So you accept its mainly lifestylism, and you are guilty of judging people on how they dress?

Charming. Someone should move this thread as there really is no substance in it.

Definitely not. I don't judge people based on any one aspect of their character per se, but the action of spending a great deal of money on clothing is an ignorant action in and of itself. And I'd think a leftist could comprehend this simple fact. Deciding to base your outward appearance on what capitalists deem proper while preaching leftist theory is slightly paradoxical as well.

[Fietsketting]

Lots of judgement, lots of commies here. Oh my... where will this thread end up?

[apawllo]

Indeed, you don't have to participate in "every capitalist activity", after all, we workers can't purchase every consumer item in the world. So where do you draw the line? Answer: wherever it doesn't inconvenience you too much, but you still get to be smug about it to people who are not doing anything wrong.

In reality, by making an issue out of the things workers consume, you're only making yourself politically irrelevant.

So you argue that a leftist in a capitalist society should fall in line until the revolution comes or what? Just play consumer and educate, while nothing changes. Then when exactly does anything change? This philosophy is so obviously flawed it's painful.

[Sam_b]

ITT: apawllo makes absolutely no sense.

[Wanted Man]

Definitely not. I don't judge people based on any one aspect of their character per se, but the action of spending a great deal of money on clothing is an ignorant action in and of itself.

What is "a great deal"? Is there a line where on one side, "it's cool", but on the other side, "you're spending too much on jeans now"?


And I'd think a leftist could comprehend this simple fact.
I think you're conflating "my opinion" with "simple fact"... Maybe the guy next door considers it a "simple fact" that people will respond better to him if he appears well-dressed.


Deciding to base your outward appearance on what capitalists deem proper while preaching leftist theory is slightly paradoxical as well.
The ruling ideas are those of the ruling class. Whatever we buy, there are always capitalists who "deem it proper". If I go to the bookstore to buy a novel based on a review in a newspaper, am I basing my literary preferences on what capitalists "deem proper" as well, and does that make me "slightly paradoxical" because I'm also "preaching leftist theory"? :confused:

[gorillafuck]

So you argue that a leftist in a capitalist society should fall in line until the revolution comes or what? Just play consumer and educate, while nothing changes. Then when exactly does anything change? This philosophy is so obviously flawed it's painful.
Not buying a speficic shirt because it's made by capitalists doesn't change anything in any way.

[Wanted Man]

So you argue that a leftist in a capitalist society should fall in line until the revolution comes or what? Just play consumer and educate, while nothing changes. Then when exactly does anything change? This philosophy is so obviously flawed it's painful.

No, but nice strawman. I have no idea where you got that idea of my "philosophy", but it probably originates from another orifice than my mouth...

Obviously, someone who takes part in organising an anti-capitalist movement isn't "falling in line". I thought that would be obvious enough. As it stands, I'd like to know what your "philosophy" is, apart from sweeping generalisations of ordinary workers who are unlikely to give a fuck about your concerns about the clothes they wear.

Otherwise, there is little point in continuing the discussion, apart from the kind of strawmen that you produce: "So you think leftists should just fall in line, keep consuming and change nothing?" "Ahh, no, my friend, you probably want us all to look like hobos and live in the woods, so when exactly does anything change?" Ad nauseam.

[apawllo]

Not buying a speficic shirt because it's made by capitalists doesn't change anything in any way.
It's not about the fact that it's made by capitalists. Most clothes are. The point I've been making which has been passed over continuously is that purchasing clothes which are expensive and trendy, and most times cheaply made, continues the same cycle. It benefits the system moreso than purchasing a shirt which looks equally nice, but is less than half the price, made better. It happens constantly just because of the name on the tag.

[apawllo]

No, but nice strawman. I have no idea where you got that idea of my "philosophy", but it probably originates from another orifice than my mouth...

Obviously, someone who takes part in organising an anti-capitalist movement isn't "falling in line". I thought that would be obvious enough. As it stands, I'd like to know what your "philosophy" is, apart from sweeping generalisations of ordinary workers who are unlikely to give a fuck about your concerns about the clothes they wear.

Otherwise, there is little point in continuing the discussion, apart from the kind of strawmen that you produce: "So you think leftists should just fall in line, keep consuming and change nothing?" "Ahh, no, my friend, you probably want us all to look like hobos and live in the woods, so when exactly does anything change?" Ad nauseam.

Ordinary workers wear skinny jeans and Nike Dunks. I'd like to meet them. :laugh:

The more time I spend here, the more I think everyone's a spoiled ass middle class high school kid. Ban me/restrict me, whatever. Working class folks don't dress like that. Thanks for the laugh.

[Wanted Man]

Ordinary workers wear skinny jeans and Nike Dunks. I'd like to meet them. :laugh:
I didn't say that. Another shit strawman. So you think ordinary workers like to sodomise horses? :rolleyes:


Ban me/restrict me, whatever.
You're not being prosecuted and nobody is going to ban you. People are simply disagreeing with you. Why do some people always respond to any disagreement with stuff like "Yeah, well, maybe you should restrict me then"? Sometimes people disagree with you. I know it hurts. Maybe you can successfully annoy your friends into "agreeing" with your whining (see, I can make presumptions about people I've never met too), but other people may feel differently.


Working class folks don't dress like that. Thanks for the laugh.
Probably not your hyperbolic examples. But where I've worked, I certainly didn't see any co-workers who only bought second-hand stuff for less than 10 bucks (see, I can do dumbass exaggeration too). Maybe it's different where you come from. In that case, I would recommend a bit more modesty before making sweeping statements about hundreds of millions of people.


The more time I spend here, the more I think everyone's a spoiled ass middle class high school kid.

That's funny. From your intro thread:


As for me, I'm a political science student preparing for graduation. My experiences and what I've learned this far have me leaning anarcho-communist. I've been particularly fond of Déjacque. However I'll be the first to admit that I still have a lot to learn.

I come from a middle class family, but I suppose I've been raised to be pretty far left. My mom is an elementary school teacher who heads the teacher's union in her district and my dad was a UFCW representative

So I'm sure you're in a good position to judge how "workers" and "spoiled ass middle class" kids behave...

[Radical]

I support the production of Che T-shirts aslong as it doesnt attack his ideals/advertises capitalist products.

The more people that know of Che Guevara, the more people that will learn of what he stood for.

- I buy Che T-Shirts, but avoid buying them from strictly exploitive corporations such as Primark.

[scarletghoul]

Che Guevara wore a Che shirt, on his face. Thats where his name comes from

[Bloody Armalite]

I thought goingg cheetham hill and buying knockoffs would hurt capitalism, police raided the back shops because the money was funding islamic terror, any clothes help capitalism, my point was that buying a che shirt is conflicting with the money you hand over, just buy a normal shirt and kneel to consumerism, but dont let che be used as a consumerist cashcow

[#FF0000]

I support the production of Che T-shirts aslong as it doesnt attack his ideals/advertises capitalist products.

The more people that know of Che Guevara, the more people that will learn of what he stood for.

- I buy Che T-Shirts, but avoid buying them from strictly exploitive corporations such as Primark.

Every.

Business.

Is.

Exploitative.

[Radical]

Every.

Business.

Is.

Exploitative.


Thats why I used the word "Stricty"

Dont waste your time posting something we all already know

[#FF0000]

Thats why I used the word "Stricty"

Dont waste your time posting something we all already know

If no capitalist firms were "strictly" exploitative, would capitalism be okay? :mellow:

[Bloody Armalite]

Capitalism is exploitive in nature:(

[#FF0000]

Capitalism is exploitive in nature:(

No kidding.

[Josef Balin]

my point is that he would not want his face on a shirt, he said all the glory in the world can fit into a grain of rice.
This Che worship is making him a hero to people who dont even know what he stood for.
But yes also because he has been turned into a consumerists wet dream


I don't act as though I never support the system. I never said that I didn't. At the same time, we don't have to partake in every capitalist activity and purchase every fashionable item just because our pocket books allow it or it looks good. I'm sure there are plenty of people here who justify walking or biking rather than driving places because gas lines the pockets of capitalists among other reasons, for example.

My favorite posts, unintentional humor is the best. Between the blatant lie about Che saying all the glory in the world can fit into a grain of rice (Jose Marti said all the glory in the world can fit in a grain of corn, but they weren't alive at the same time) and possibly the dumbest thing I've ever heard on revleft in the second post this is a pretty great thread.

[apawllo]

You're not being prosecuted and nobody is going to ban you. People are simply disagreeing with you. Why do some people always respond to any disagreement with stuff like "Yeah, well, maybe you should restrict me then"? Sometimes people disagree with you. I know it hurts. Maybe you can successfully annoy your friends into "agreeing" with your whining (see, I can make presumptions about people I've never met too), but other people may feel differently.

I don't care if people disagree with me, and I'll happily debate, but I know that you restrict people with opposing viewpoints here. And mine is clearly that.


Probably not your hyperbolic examples. But where I've worked, I certainly didn't see any co-workers who only bought second-hand stuff for less than 10 bucks (see, I can do dumbass exaggeration too). Maybe it's different where you come from. In that case, I would recommend a bit more modesty before making sweeping statements about hundreds of millions of people.

You didn't see any co-workers? Haha. As though you only associate with working class folks when you're making your money. Unless it was in an office filing papers some place.


So I'm sure you're in a good position to judge how "workers" and "spoiled ass middle class" kids behave...

Yeah, get off my nuts kid. Spending 10 years worth of my hard earned on college seeking an education to aid the working class while my parents worked their asses off benefiting the working class is a crime, but apparently spending it on trendy clothes isn't.

Whatever man. I'm finished with this. Do you, I'll do me.

[Bloody Armalite]

yeah i know marti wrote it, but che, like castro adored marti and when castro was captured and placed on trial the prosecutoin asked him who the leader was and castro said jose marti, my point is che believed he was a revolutionary but not a god like he is made out to be, and that was just a side topic, not relating to the reason not to buy Tshirts of him.:closedeyes:

[Josef Balin]

yeah i know marti wrote it, but che, like castro adored marti and when castro was captured and placed on trial the prosecutoin asked him who the leader was and castro said jose marti, my point is che believed he was a revolutionary but not a god like he is made out to be, and that was just a side topic, not relating to the reason not to buy Tshirts of him.:closedeyes:
How is putting him on a t-shirt making him out to be a god? And I don't get it, now you don't like Che t-shirts because Che "was not a god"?

If they're exploiting workers to make shirts, it might as well have something on it that reminds people of the exploitation (or specifically the solution to the exploitation and fair debate of it thereof).

[Robocommie]

Man, we have so many more things to be worrying about than what our comrades are wearing on their asses. Or any part of our bodies. Or really, in general, how we spend our money on consumer goods, or generally speaking, how we earn that money.

I mean FUCK man, if little things like this spawn arguments, how the fuck are we going to unify enough to promote the revolution? Let's chill on this "More-red-than-thou" stuff.

[Revy]

This thread has inspired me to to buy a Che shirt. with an anarchy symbol on the back. complete with matching beret. From Hot Topic.

That's how I roll :che:

[Revy]

Spending that type of money accessorizing your wardrobe with trendy garb is not helpful in fighting capitalism. I'm sure most people who dress the way that I described are still living off their parents and have no idea what capitalism actually means aside from what they've read in books.

Agreed 100%. Our fashion choices directly determine the economic system we live under.

[RadioRaheem84]

Better Che, than Milton Friedman. Che dominates capitalism, post mortem.

[apawllo]

My favorite posts, unintentional humor is the best. Between the blatant lie about Che saying all the glory in the world can fit into a grain of rice (Jose Marti said all the glory in the world can fit in a grain of corn, but they weren't alive at the same time) and possibly the dumbest thing I've ever heard on revleft in the second post this is a pretty great thread.

I must have missed that my post was quoted.

How is my post dumb?

Apparently my intellect level is too low for the revolutionary leftist movement which opposes economic opposition to capitalism, but fill me in please.

[apawllo]

Agreed 100%. Our fashion choices directly determine the economic system we live under.
I assume you're being sarcastic, but yes. Virtually every choice we make directly impacts the economic system.

[apawllo]

Man, we have so many more things to be worrying about than what our comrades are wearing on their asses. Or any part of our bodies. Or really, in general, how we spend our money on consumer goods, or generally speaking, how we earn that money.

I mean FUCK man, if little things like this spawn arguments, how the fuck are we going to unify enough to promote the revolution? Let's chill on this "More-red-than-thou" stuff.

Shit. If someone's on here talking stuff about capitalism at night, then putting a suit on and going to their job as a marketing executive or an investment banker they need to be in a shallow grave as far as I'm concerned. Of course your earnings and how they're spent matter. We're all a part of the system, and perpetuating this nonsense is not something any of us should be interested in.

[cenv]

Che has lost all his value. For all his accomplishments as a revolutionary (and some leftists are more keen on those accomplishments than others), wearing Che's face on a shirt isn't "propaganda." In fact, it's not making a political statement at all. In the context of our society, Che stands for nothing more than petty, apolitical rebellion and trendiness. Of course, symbolism is an important part of propaganda, but capitalism tends to hijack revolutionary symbols, a process the situationists referred to as "recuperation." So as revolutionaries, we have no choice but to move on to symbols that have more meaning.

[gorillafuck]

I must have missed that my post was quoted.

How is my post dumb?

Apparently my intellect level is too low for the revolutionary leftist movement which opposes economic opposition to capitalism, but fill me in please.
The point of what people are saying is that, boycotting certain products under capitalism does nothing. All capitalism is exploitative and it's impossible to "not support the system" or to even affect the system in the tiniest bit by individualistic moral purchasing. The opposition isn't to "economic opposition to capitalism", it's to the idea that any change occurs from not buying certain products. And by the way, all clothing is made in sweatshops. There aren't "more exploitative" and "less exploitative" sweatshops.

[Robocommie]

Shit. If someone's on here talking stuff about capitalism at night, then putting a suit on and going to their job as a marketing executive or an investment banker they need to be in a shallow grave as far as I'm concerned. Of course your earnings and how they're spent matter. We're all a part of the system, and perpetuating this nonsense is not something any of us should be interested in.

Do you think any of us here are investment bankers or marketing executives? I mean, really?

Also dude, talking about shallow graves makes you come off as the "internet tough guy."

[apawllo]

The point of what people are saying is that, boycotting certain products under capitalism does nothing. All capitalism is exploitative and it's impossible to "not support the system" or to even affect the system in the tiniest bit by individualistic moral purchasing. The opposition isn't to "economic opposition to capitalism", it's to the idea that any change occurs from not buying certain products. And by the way, all clothing is made in sweatshops. There aren't "more exploitative" and "less exploitative" sweatshops.

I never said anything about sweatshops. My point was that purchasing trendy clothing items results in increased production and consumption for reasons which I've already mentioned. It's common sense though. I have a feeling people just don't want to accept these facts as realities because they're offenders.

And I realize it's impossible not to support the system. That was my point with that post. I guess I phrased myself wrong. Either way while supporting the system you can also support the cause. Everyone here is out to accomplish the same goals more or less. And, while individuals can't necessarily negatively affect the system enough to cause significant damage, a large group can. This is essentially why it irks me to hear that leftists are more or less going out of their way to be trendy. I just think we could do better.

[apawllo]

Do you think any of us here are investment bankers or marketing executives? I mean, really?

Also dude, talking about shallow graves makes you come off as the "internet tough guy."

The more time I spend here, the more I wonder.

And I honestly don't care how I "come off" so long as I'm getting my point across.

[Robocommie]

The more time I spend here, the more I wonder.

And I honestly don't care how I "come off" so long as I'm getting my point across.

I don't think you get my point; the internet tough guy act is a signal to everyone that you're not to be taken seriously.

So, if you really only care about getting your point across, you need to actually care about how you dress your message.

And man, don't give us that "the more I wonder" stuff. You've already confessed you're a political science student, that makes you an academic at least. There's nothing wrong with that, I'M a student. But don't swagger around like you're fucking Tom Joad, John Henry reborn or something.

[Revy]

Che has lost all his value. For all his accomplishments as a revolutionary (and some leftists are more keen on those accomplishments than others), wearing Che's face on a shirt isn't "propaganda." In fact, it's not making a political statement at all. In the context of our society, Che stands for nothing more than petty, apolitical rebellion and trendiness. Of course, symbolism is an important part of propaganda, but capitalism tends to hijack revolutionary symbols, a process the situationists referred to as "recuperation." So as revolutionaries, we have no choice but to move on to symbols that have more meaning.

Revolution isn't about symbols. Therefore the question is not what symbols to wear.

Furthermore, the popularity of Che shirts does not mean you can make broad sweeping generalizations about people who wear them. Plenty of people use the red star with great radical meaning, it doesn't mean they endorse Heineken, or Macy's.

[apawllo]

I don't think you get my point; the internet tough guy act is a signal to everyone that you're not to be taken seriously.

So, if you really only care about getting your point across, you need to actually care about how you dress your message.

And man, don't give us that "the more I wonder" stuff. You've already confessed you're a political science student, that makes you an academic at least. There's nothing wrong with that, I'M a student. But don't swagger around like you're fucking Tom Joad, John Henry reborn or something.

I argued my position, and rather than saying that they disagree certain people directed their offenses toward me personally, calling names and such, so naturally I got defensive. Honestly, the level of political correctness needed in posts around here is well beyond the level I'm used to. I'm gonna continue to say what I feel if you guys get offended it's whatever. Go ahead and call me the internet tough guy again.

[RotStern]

Yeah this website supports itself partly on che :O

[Revy]

Yeah this website supports itself partly on che :O

so this website is just one big Che shirt , huh? And we're all wearing it? :p

[Charles Xavier]

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[Bloody Armalite]

Should i ask for my thread to be taken off, it seems to just be causing tension between fellow Comrades.
let me know.

[RedRise]

Should i ask for my thread to be taken off, it seems to just be causing tension between fellow Comrades.
let me know.

Yeah, I'd do that.:closedeyes:


so this website is just one big Che shirt , huh? And we're all wearing it?
:lol::lol::lol:

By the way, does a che beret count? I got that beret off CheLives.com and I wear it just about all the time. Those who are friends of my friends but don't really know me associate me with the beret. Does that mean I'm becoming like che?:confused:

[The Bear]

i dont really think u support capitalism... i personaly got che shirt from a small stand on street for a bargain... doesnt sound like big capital is in....

[Bloody Armalite]

does it sound like im becoming che:closedeyes:
No it sound like your becoming an American:)

[The Bear]

oi , shut up and admit , u all have che shirts :)

[Revy]

oi , shut up and admit , u all have che shirts :)

Radical has seven Che shirts, one for each day of the week.

[Bloody Armalite]

lol, i concur:D

[Das war einmal]

I don't care if people disagree with me, and I'll happily debate, but I know that you restrict people with opposing viewpoints here. And mine is clearly that.



You didn't see any co-workers? Haha. As though you only associate with working class folks when you're making your money. Unless it was in an office filing papers some place.



Yeah, get off my nuts kid. Spending 10 years worth of my hard earned on college seeking an education to aid the working class while my parents worked their asses off benefiting the working class is a crime, but apparently spending it on trendy clothes isn't.

Whatever man. I'm finished with this. Do you, I'll do me.

You can see here (http://piv.pivpiv.dk/) what the working class thinks of your arguments

[Post-Something]

Edward Bernays is laughing in his grave right now.

[Robocommie]

Edward Bernays is laughing in his grave right now.

Well let's dig that guy up and punch him in his smart ass mouth!

[PRC-UTE]

What the hell have skinny jeans got to do with anything? Now you're just generalising, and not very well.

The only Che t-shirt I own is a mashup between his face and Willie Miller, Aberdeen FC's captain when we beat Real Madrid in 1983. VIVA LE DONS!

haha that's class.

at the OP: buying/wearing a Che shirt is not a revolutionary act, nor is it a "sin". But c'mon like there has to be someone out there that saw one, liked it and then as a result read into the man's life and what he stood for.

[F9]

BA i deleted the "phone" post, first of all its personal information and second, RevLeft isnt your personal diary...I didnt edited it out in case you really need it and its important i can give it to you back.But anw, please dont post again something that has absolutely no relation with the board.

[Plagueround]

Ordinary workers wear skinny jeans and Nike Dunks. I'd like to meet them. :laugh:

The more time I spend here, the more I think everyone's a spoiled ass middle class high school kid. Ban me/restrict me, whatever. Working class folks don't dress like that. Thanks for the laugh.

If I had a dollar for every time I've seen regular working class people fret about buying expensive designer items for themselves and their kids, I'd be a rich man. One of the more interesting things about the history of capital is the point where big business realized to keep themselves in existence, they would have to turn people into unsatisfied consumers, always convinced that they needed something better than what they had. I can think of many a family member who had little money and was always in debt, but the most important thing to them was making sure they didn't look poor, and in the process would dig themselves deeper into debt.

No offense, but if you're wanting to help the working class, you'll have to first get in touch with some actual working class people, and second, when you do so, drop the condescending attitude about your years of sacrifice as you descended from the middle class to save the workers from themselves. I don't think being middle class automatically disqualifies you from having an opinion (my family has gone from nothing to middle class over the course of 25ish years, and even after they started doing well I struggled quite a bit, so finding some sort of dollar amount where I stopped having a valid opinion would be silly), but drop the patronizing displays.

[bawbag]

I have to admit I would LOVE to have a Che Guevara t-shirt, but i haven't bought one because i see it as very hypocritical, i have thought about it but it feels like selling out, I really want one, i just cant pull myself to buying one,

even though they are everywhere and everyone has one, + a shitload of hypocritical twats that dont know anything baout Che, atleast i would know what i stood for, atleast i would know what it means to me:)

[apawllo]

If I had a dollar for every time I've seen regular working class people fret about buying expensive designer items for themselves and their kids, I'd be a rich man. One of the more interesting things about the history of capital is the point where big business realized to keep themselves in existence, they would have to turn people into unsatisfied consumers, always convinced that they needed something better than what they had. I can think of many a family member who had little money and was always in debt, but the most important thing to them was making sure they didn't look poor, and in the process would dig themselves deeper into debt.

No offense, but if you're wanting to help the working class, you'll have to first get in touch with some actual working class people, and second, when you do so, drop the condescending attitude about your years of sacrifice as you descended from the middle class to save the workers from themselves. I don't think being middle class automatically disqualifies you from having an opinion (my family has gone from nothing to middle class over the course of 25ish years, and even after they started doing well I struggled quite a bit, so finding some sort of dollar amount where I stopped having a valid opinion would be silly), but drop the patronizing displays.

You're reading in to my posts way too much there. All I said was that working class people don't wear skinny jeans and Nike Dunks. Meant to be read, I don't know, nor have I seen any working class people in my area wearing said attire. That's some middle class shit to wear around here. The rest of your post is assumptions and generalizations which I got chewed out by a moderator for earlier in the thread. I apologize, I'll be more PC with my posts from now on so as not to offend the working class fashion police.

[Plagueround]

I apologize, I'll be more PC with my posts from now on so as not to offend the working class fashion police.

I don't think it's "PC" to point out the fact that your assumption about what the working class wears or should wear is wrong. It just means you're wrong. You can stop playing victim now.

[apawllo]

I don't think it's "PC" to point out the fact that your assumption about what the working class wears or should wear is wrong. It just means you're wrong. You can stop playing victim now.

Like I said, you're the one making assumptions. Trends are different all over. Dude that started shit with me was from England, and the next person was from the Netherlands. Being that I'm from Ohio it should be obvious that I'm not speaking on fashion trends of the working class anywhere in Europe. I'm not trying to play the victim card either, but it seems as though people are just looking for shit to nitpick about.

But yes, you're right. The working class is once again infallible under the capitalist system. This line of thinking will progress us so very far. :rolleyes:

[Plagueround]

Most people would have just said "sorry, I was wrong" by now. But...


Like I said, you're the one making assumptions. Trends are different all over. Dude that started shit with me was from England, and the next person was from the Netherlands. Being that I'm from Ohio it should be obvious that I'm not speaking on fashion trends of the working class anywhere in Europe. I'm not trying to play the victim card either, but it seems as though people are just looking for shit to nitpick about.

So when you say:


Ordinary workers wear skinny jeans and Nike Dunks. I'd like to meet them. :laugh:And:


The more time I spend here, the more I think everyone's a spoiled ass middle class high school kid. Ban me/restrict me, whatever. Working class folks don't dress like that. Thanks for the laugh.We are supposed to infer from that that you were merely talking about your area, and that we should be sensitive to your subjective experience - a subjective experience that you presented in a hostile and arrogant manner.


But yes, you're right. The working class is once again infallible under the capitalist system. This line of thinking will progress us so very far. :rolleyes:If you could point out where I suggested the working class was infallible it would be much appreciated. My first post even articulated how many poor working class folks (my poor relatives nonetheless) have been largely duped into buying shit they don't need and put into debts they can't pay off. If you recall, I've also mentioned that although my parents have achieved what I suppose could be construed as middle class, I myself am very much a member of the working class. Only in the past 5 months have I attained a job where I'm no longer living paycheck to paycheck, or more accurately payday loan to paycheck. ;)
Much of the working class is also racist, sexist, homophobic, and hold many more reactionary views. This is why it's important to understand how they arrive at those views, since most of them were promoted throughout history to further a particular agenda and "divide and conquer" and have become part of the capitalist hegemony. This gives a proper platform to challenge such views while appealing to the interests of working class people.
It doesn't mean, however, they should be sainted and nothing they do is bad, but it also doesn't mean the working class is incapable of taking care of our own.

I understand now why the Maoist had their college students go work in the fields for part of their education.

[pastradamus]

In response to the OP, It dosent matter whats on the T shirt. Its almost always going to be hand made by some child in a vietnamese factory anyway. Globalisation dictates, not a transfer image of che on a shirt.

[Charles Xavier]

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[The Red Next Door]

what can you do?