SWP Support for Hamas

[welshboy]

I came across this (http://www.reuters.com/article/newsMaps/idUSTRE57T1JW20090830) story the other day and was wondering how groups such as the SWP could justify their support for Hamas. I have seen SWP members on here desperately attempt to justify supporting Hamas and claiming that Hamas aren't anti-semitic any more. well here they are denying the holocaust or are the SWP going to start 'just questioning the numbers' now to appease their strange choice of bedfellows.

GAZA (Reuters) - Hamas condemned the United Nations Sunday, saying it planned to teach Palestinian children in the Gaza Strip about the Holocaust -- but the U.N. agency which runs schools in the enclave would not confirm any change.
Branding the Nazi genocide of the Jews "a lie invented by the Zionists," the Islamist movement which runs the Gaza Strip wrote in an open letter to a senior U.N. official that he should withdraw plans for a new history book in U.N. schools.
A spokesman for the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA), which educates some 200,000 refugee children in Gaza, said the Holocaust was not on its current curriculum. He would not comment on Hamas's statement that it was about to change.
Palestinians resent the way world powers reacted to the Holocaust by supporting the establishment of Israel in 1948, a move that left half the Arab population of then British-ruled Palestine as refugees in Gaza, the West Bank and abroad.
Hamas said it believed UNRWA was about to start using a text for 13-year-olds that included a chapter on the Holocaust.
In an open letter to local UNRWA chief John Ging, the movement's Popular Committees for Refugees said: "We refuse to let our children study a lie invented by the Zionists."
UNRWA spokesman Adnan Abu Hasna said: "There is no mention of the Holocaust in the current syllabus." Asked if UNRWA planned to change that, he declined to comment.
In the Israeli-occupied West Bank, run by the Western-backed Palestinian Authority of President Mahmoud Abbas, teachers said there was no official guidance on teaching about the Holocaust.
Israelis are angered by denial of the Holocaust among some in the Middle East, notably lately by leaders in Iran (http://www.reuters.com/news/globalcoverage/iran), who provide support for Hamas. Abbas, who has engaged in negotiation with Israel, has had to distance himself from his own 1980s doctoral thesis, which cast doubt on the scale of the Holocaust.
Hamas's official spokesman in Gaza, Sami Abu Zuhri, said he did not want to discuss the history of the Holocaust but said:
"Regardless of the controversy, we oppose forcing the issue of the so-called Holocaust onto the syllabus, because it aims to reinforce acceptance of the occupation of Palestinian land."

[Sam_b]

Define 'Hamas' - are we talking of the reactionary leadership here, or the mass movement of resistance on the streets?

This is where most critics fail: because they see Hamas as a homogenous group. It simply isn't.

-

EDIT: Also, why merely 'SWP support'? Scores of other groups take the same line as we do.

[welshboy]

I specifically mention SWP support as yourself and Bob The Builder have bent over backwards to attempt to justify your orgs support for this vile organisation on RevLeft.
How can you justify supporting an out and out anti-semitic organisation like this?

[Sam_b]

So I take it you can't answer the question then?

[welshboy]

So you're telling me that the whole time that the SWP has been supporting fascism in Gaza it's actually been supporting this 'other' Hamas and not that nasty anti-semitic Hamas we've all been reading about in the papers?
Dishonest much Sam?

[The Feral Underclass]

So I take it you can't answer the question then?

Hamas are a political organisation, which the SWP have supported. You can't now try and conflate Palestinian working class opposition to Israeli imperialism with Hamas, that's just dishonest. Not to mention ridiculous.

In fact, the SWP line has always been that Hamas are the democratically elected leaders of the Palestinian people in Gaza. Therefore they have a legitimate role to play in opposing Israel and therefore should be supported.

So I think the post was directed towards Hamas, the political organisation the SWP support.

[Sam_b]

You don't make any sense as usual. Where you've failed before is that you blanketly see Hamas as one, unified and homogenous group (also nice to see the misuse and dilution of the term 'fascist', no real surprise when you have no real argument here), where the fact of the matter is that Hamas are a mass movement of thousands of Gazans who are more interested in defending themselves from Israeli imperialism. This sort of nonsense criticism has been levelled before at another legitimate resistance group, specifically the so-called "Islamo-Fascism" of Hezbollah (despite of course, Hezbollah having significant support, especially around 2006, from Lebanese Christians). Its paramount to saying that the left was wrong to support the resistance to Franco in the Spanish Civil War because some elements were Stalininst. It makes absolutely no sense at all.

Thankfully Palestinian support for the legitimate Hamas resistance is unwavering, unlike anarchist pick-and-choose support for people threatened by imperialism.

I doubt I will post much more in this thread if the same tired and baseless arguments are used yet again, which have been roundly criticised by us in a plethora of other threads.

[h0m0revolutionary]

In fact, the SWP line has always been that Hamas are the democratically elected leaders of the Palestinian people in Gaza.



Since the election of Hamas in Gaza yes, but there was a time Tony Cliffe condemned the Muslim Brotherhood and their "middle eatern allies" as 'clerical fascists' - a term now stolen and widely used by the Alliance for Workers Liberty

[KC]

Thankfully Palestinian support for the legitimate Hamas resistance is unwavering, unlike anarchist pick-and-choose support for people threatened by imperialism.That is because Hamas is very efficient at "removing" any other methods of resistance.

EDIT: It should also be noted that Hamas was elected on an anti-corruption platform and not because the Palestinian people supported their "resistance movement".

EDIT #2: It should also be noted that Hamas' "resistance" has proven itself to be incapable of making any significant progress and have proven their tactics to be for all intents and purposes bankrupt.

[h0m0revolutionary]

Sam come off it, you know full well you're conflating Hamas for the anti-zionist resistance. The two are different things, we applaud anti-zionism, but that doens't equate to support for Hamas - the membership orginisation.

[Sam_b]

By that logic do you also call the Taleban a 'membership organisation'?

[welshboy]

Sorry Sam, you are completely right. I shouldn't have said Fascist. Hamas are far closer to the NSDAP than to Mussolini's Fascists. So I should have said whilst the SWP were supporting Nazi'ism in Gaza.

[The Feral Underclass]

You don't make any sense as usual.

Yeah, there's a lot of that going around.


Where you've failed before is that you blanketly see Hamas as one, unified and homogenous group

No, I see them as a political organisation, which is what they are.


(also nice to see the misuse and dilution of the term 'fascist', no real surprise when you have no real argument here)

Who are you talking to?


where the fact of the matter is that Hamas are a mass movement of thousands of Gazans who are more interested in defending themselves from Israeli imperialism.

That's just a cop out. They're no more Hamas than the millions of people who've elected Labour three terms are Labourites. Working class people in Gaza don't have an alternative at present, so as you yourself have argued, they have chosen Hamas because of that fact.

It's just political opportunism and an appeal to authority to try and conflate ordinary workers who resist the Israeli occupation with their elected representatives.

Hamas are a very specific organisation with a specific political agenda, you simply cannot attribute every single Gazan who struggles against Israel to Hamas.


Thankfully Palestinian support for the legitimate Hamas resistance is unwavering

Wait a minute, you just said they were two different things? You can't have your cake and eat it, as much as you'd like to think you can. So which is it, there is Palestinian support for the "legitimate Hamas resistance" or they are one and the same thing?


I doubt I will post much more in this thread if the same tired and baseless arguments are used yet again, which have been roundly criticised by us in a plethora of other threads.

Oh yes, here we go. A typical sam_b tactic. When the going gets tough, just ignore them.

Hopefully everyone else will be able to see how contradictory and fundamentally wrong you are.

[The Feral Underclass]

By that logic do you also call the Taleban a 'membership organisation'?

No, because the Taliban isn't, where as Hamas are...Idiot. The Taliban is a "...Sunni Islamist, predominantly Pashtun fundamentalist religious and political movement" and Hamas are "...a Palestinian Islamic socio-political organization..."

[welshboy]

Sam, dear, you're not making much sense. Hamas are a political organisation which your political organisation gives political support to. The article above talks about the actions of Hamas the political organisation.

[KC]

By that logic do you also call the Taleban a 'membership organisation'?

The Talib'an (i.e. the followers of Mullah Muhammad Omar) is a movement more than a simple political organization. It is structured on a basis that is fundamentally distinct from that of Hamas. It also serves a different purpose and operates in different conditions, which is why it has such a different organizational form from Hamas.

Hamas is an organization comprised of a membership and a distinct leadership with definite organizational policies and viewpoints, and administers its own social programs and political actions as an organization.

You cannot compare the two as you are attempting to do here.

[Sam_b]

Oh yes, here we go. A typical sam_b tactic. When the going gets tough, just ignore them

Why should I continue to respon in a thread when me and SWP comrades on this board have clarified ourselves over dozens of threads, if anyone actually bothered to read them?

[welshboy]

So you do support anti-semitism then? Cos in the other threads you and your comrades have explicitly stated that you support Hamas the political organisation.

[The Feral Underclass]

Why should I continue to respon in a thread when me and SWP comrades on this board have clarified ourselves over dozens of threads, if anyone actually bothered to read them?

Well, clearly you haven't clarified yourself and have in fact contradicted yourself twice in this thread.

[KC]

Why should I continue to respon in a thread when me and SWP comrades on this board have clarified ourselves over dozens of threads, if anyone actually bothered to read them?

I have never seen any clear answers coming from any Hamas supporters.

In fact, in this thread alone you have done nothing but obfuscate - first between Hamas members and supporters, and then between Hamas and the Talib'an. This is just further representation of what I've just said.


So you do support anti-semitism then? Cos in the other threads you and your comrades have explicitly stated that you support Hamas the political organisation.

Why are you being such a dishonest hack? If you disagree with his position then make an argument against it; calling him anti-semitic (which is basically what you are doing here) is just stupid and makes you look like an idiot.

[welshboy]

OK, I was being a bit of a dick there.
I just want to see how his mob can justify their continuing support of Hamas in light of this case of holocaust denial? If they continue to support Hamas politically then they must have an opinion on Hamas' anti-semitism.

[KC]

I just want to see how his mob can justify their continuing support of Hamas in light of this case of holocaust denial? If they continue to support Hamas politically then they must have an opinion on Hamas' anti-semitism.

Well I think your position of blanket condemnation is about as ridiculous as the SWP's position of blanket support.

The majority of Hamas' work is in social programs that basically allow Palestinians to survive, as these programs are not offered by the Palestinian Authority or any other organization and without them they would be in a much worse position. So as a social organization I think Hamas is incredibly successful.

However, their tactics of bombings and missile attacks have proven to be completely counterproductive, and ultimately (due to who they represent) their overriding ideology behind such attacks is the cause. As a political resistance to Israeli encroachment into Palestinian territory and control over Palestine they have proven to be utterly useless. But of course the bankruptcy of the leadership of the Palestinian resistance movement is nothing new at all, and over the past few decades has vacillated between terrorism and appeasement.

[The Feral Underclass]

I just want to see how his mob can justify their continuing support of Hamas in light of this case of holocaust denial?

By saying they were talking about something else all along. In effect, by lying. But why are we surprised?

[Sam_b]

have in fact contradicted yourself twice in this thread.

Like where? Unless you're assuming that by 'legitimite resistance' I mean 'elected'.


So you do support anti-semitism then?

Yes, of course I do.





:rolleyes:

[KC]

Like where?


In fact, in this thread alone you have done nothing but obfuscate - first between Hamas members and supporters, and then between Hamas and the Talib'an. This is just further representation of what I've just said.

.

[welshboy]

Well I think your position of blanket condemnation is about as ridiculous as the SWP's position of blanket support.

The majority of Hamas' work is in social programs that basically allow Palestinians to survive, as these programs are not offered by the Palestinian Authority or any other organization and without them they would be in a much worse position. So as a social organization I think Hamas is incredibly successful.
Social programs like expelling women from university in south Gaza?
I don't just condemn them for their anti-semitism but for acting like a far right political organisation, which they are.
The reason I was concentrating on their anti-semitism is because the article I posted above clearly shows that Hamas are a party that denies the holocaust.

[Sam_b]

The whole point is that there is a complete negation of the fact that some resistance attacks are carried out in the name of Hamas, where individuals are not members. Regardless, i'm no wasting my time anymore on this.

[KC]

Social programs like expelling women from university in south Gaza?

Well I was referring to the construction of schools and hospitals and funding/running schools, orphanages, mosques, healthcare clinics, soup kitchens, and sports leagues.

Your position is simply one-sided. Of course they're a "far-right" organization, but you completely ignore/downplay the positive role they have played in Palestine and supporting the Palestinian people in favor of focusing entirely on the negative. This is not a materialist analysis.


The reason I was concentrating on their anti-semitism is because the article I posted above clearly shows that Hamas are a party that denies the holocaust.While I think their anti-semitism does play a role in their position as leaders of the Palestinian resistance, I find it much more productive to appraise them based on their actions and their gains/losses in the context in which they operate.

The reason you focus so intently on their holocaust denial is because you are more interested in slandering them than putting forward a complete analysis of Hamas as an organization by looking at it from all sides.


The whole point is that there is a complete negation of the fact that some resistance attacks are carried out in the name of Hamas, where individuals are not members.

Of course there are, but that does not change the fact that Hamas is a political organization and in no way structured like the Talib'an. You obviously deny this somehow, even though it is pretty common knowledge.


Regardless, i'm no wasting my time anymore on this.It seems to me that first you attempted to support your position by obfuscation, and when that didn't work you now resort to ignoring the questions asked of your position and the criticisms raised of it. That only serves to make your position seem even more suspect.

[welshboy]

What have the rocket attacks got to do with your political organisation supporting an openly anti-semitic organisation?

[welshboy]

The reason you focus so intently on their holocaust denial is because you are more interested in slandering them than putting forward a complete analysis of Hamas as an organization by looking at it from all sides.

No. The reason I concentrate on their anti-semitism is because that is what the article above shows.
And hang the fuckety fuck on mister! Are you saying that you are happy to support the far right so long as they're doing nice things as well as being the class enemy?
(apologies if I'm just reading you wrong here)

[The Feral Underclass]

The whole point is that there is a complete negation of the fact that some resistance attacks are carried out in the name of Hamas, where individuals are not members. Regardless, i'm no wasting my time anymore on this.

That's just weak! Why do you continue with this bullshit. This is twice you've backed out of a debate on this issue. You know you're wrong, you're just too arrogant to accept it.

[KC]

What have the rocket attacks got to do with your political organisation supporting an openly anti-semitic organisation?

Are you seriously asking how the tactics of an organization factor into your analysis of an organization and whether or not you support them? :confused:


No. The reason I concentrate on their anti-semitism is because that is what the article above shows.

This doesn't dispute my point in any way; it just shows that your OP as well as the article you posted fit into what I have said, as well.


And hang the fuckety fuck on mister! Are you saying that you are happy to support the far right so long as they're doing nice things as well as being the class enemy?
(apologies if I'm just reading you wrong here)

No, I simply don't jump on the bandwagon of downplaying/ignoring the positive things an organization does to focus solely on the negative. I prefer an all-sided appraisal as opposed to a one-sided condemnation.

[mosfeld]

I came across this (http://www.reuters.com/article/newsMaps/idUSTRE57T1JW20090830) story the other day and was wondering how groups such as the SWP could justify their support for Hamas. I have seen SWP members on here desperately attempt to justify supporting Hamas and claiming that Hamas aren't anti-semitic any more. well here they are denying the holocaust or are the SWP going to start 'just questioning the numbers' now to appease their strange choice of bedfellows.

I can't really speak for the SWP, but the reason I support Hamas is because they're leading the struggle against Israeli occupation, genocide and imperialism and for Palestinian national liberation. I think it's fucking disgusting how you think its perfectly acceptable to drop all support for an anti-imperialist resistance movement because they're, supposedly, anti-semitic, as if there aren't a million counter-points for supporting them.

In case you haven't forgotten I'd like to remind you that Israel orchestrated a fucking genocide against the people of Gaza a few months ago, and the only resistance against this genocide was from Hamas. How the fuck do you justify denouncing the resistance of an oppressed people? Is using liberal arguments, such as accusing them of anti-semitism, the best you can do? Aren't there more important things to worry about like the survival of the Palestinian people, which Hamas is fighting for? Also I think you shouldn't be whining about people not tolerating other religions when you yourself have a Christian chauvinist and Islamophobic avatar yourself if you'd remove the newfag meme covering it.

Claiming that Hamas is an anti-semitic organization as a whole is bizarre. Take a quick look at Hamas' wikipedia page and you'll find quotes by certain Hamas members showing respect for Jewish people or something similar. It's undoubtedly true that there are anti-semitic elements in Hamas, but these elements probably exist in every single Palestinian political organization because of anti-semitism produced by Israeli imperialism, so accusing Hamas of anti-semitism is as abhorrent as accusing the PFLP or something of anti-semitism.


"Our message to the Israelis is this: We do not fight you because you belong to a certain faith or culture. Jews have lived in the Muslim world for 13 centuries in peace and harmony; they are in our religion "the people of the book" who have a covenant from God and his messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him), to be respected and protected."

"Our conflict with you is not religious but political. We have no problem with Jews who have not attacked us — our problem is with those who came to our land, imposed themselves on us by force, destroyed our society and banished our people."

"But it should be made clear that neither Hamas nor the Palestinian government in Gaza denies the Nazi Holocaust. The Holocaust was not only a crime against humanity but one of the most abhorrent crimes in modern history. We condemn it as we condemn every abuse of humanity and all forms of discrimination on the basis of religion, race, gender or nationality."

[Hit The North]

Like it or not, Hamas spearheaded the resistance against the Israeli invasion of Gaza. The SWP support them in that concrete struggle against the Zionist puppets of imperialism. That is all. When the Palestinian working class break with Hamas and form their own resistance, no doubt the SWP will support that.

Some of you here act as if just talking about it on a message board or in your journals and papers, or raising it as a slogan in demonstrations in London or Paris or Seatle will summon up a secular, militant working class alternative to the reactionary theocrats in Gaza but, guess what, it won't.


OK, I was being a bit of a dick there.
I just want to see how his mob can justify their continuing support of Hamas in light of this case of holocaust denial? If they continue to support Hamas politically then they must have an opinion on Hamas' anti-semitism.

Not only are you being a dick, you're also being politically naive. Hamas are not interested in debates about history, or what human atrocities should take precedence over other human atrocities. They are engaged in a propaganda war with Israel as the article you posted clearly demonstrates. I have no idea if Hamas officially denies the Holocaust (I doubt they do), but they are right to attack the notion that the Holocaust should be used to justify the state of Israel or, what is the same thing, the theft of Palestine.

Finally, you ignorant gentile, the Palestinian people themselves are Semites, so your accusation of anti-Semitism is clearly inaccurate. Unless, of course, you're claiming that they are 'self-haters' which is a typical and much used Zionist accusation against Jews who oppose Israel.

Of course, there might be a strong anti-Jewish sentiment coming from Hamas. But this is understandable given that it's the Jewish Israeli state which is fucking them over. Do you seriously think this sentiment is not rife among ordinary Palestinian workers? Are you going to call them anti-Semites and turn your back on them as well?

[h0m0revolutionary]

Take note Bob, it's the Stalin-kiddies backing you up.
Typical SWP, revolutionary platform, sub-reformist policies.

[Hit The North]

Take note Bob, it's the Stalin-kiddies backing you up.


Jeez, I better change my line before I start getting these through the post:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/Stalin_Medal.png


Btw, what are "sub-reformist" politics?

[Misanthrope]

OK, I was being a bit of a dick there.
I just want to see how his mob can justify their continuing support of Hamas in light of this case of holocaust denial? If they continue to support Hamas politically then they must have an opinion on Hamas' anti-semitism.

Supporting a faction against an imperialist, capitalist, racist regime is not anti-Semitic. Quite frankly, I could care less if Hamas is anti-Semitic, I would expect them to feel that way. A self proclaiming Jewish state constantly bombarding them with rockets while complaining to the world that the Arab community is not being sensitive about a tragedy that happened fifty years ago. Yes, they are ignorant but do you expect them to be geniuses? Palestinian children don't go to school because it is not safe. Hamas is their only fighting chance at life.

[h0m0revolutionary]

Btw, what are "sub-reformist" politics?

Sub: A prefix meaning almost, just below, or somewhat imperfectly

or do you think supporting the orginisation who habitually maim and murder Palestinian leftists is a revolutionary move?

[Hit The North]

Sub: A prefix meaning almost, just below, or somewhat imperfectly


I'm still confused. Is the SWP support for Hamas almost reformist, just below reformist or imperfectly reformist?

Why is it reformist at all?

And no I don't think supporting Hamas' resistance to Israeli militarism is a revolutionary move. It's an anti-imperialist move.

It could also be a sub-humanitarian move. What do you reckon?

[Kassad]

Not only am I amazed by the incredible chauvinism displayed here, but I'm also amused by those people who think that a struggle for self-determination against imperialism is now somehow unjust because it isn't led by progressive forces. I'm sure you would maintain the same arguments talking to a Palestinian who lost their home and their family due to Israel's relentless bombing and assaults. "Sorry, but we can't support your struggle for independence because a nationalist force is leading you." Real cute.

I would address the ridiculous assertion that Palestinians being anti-Jewish is somehow anti-semitic, but other people have covered that already. I mean, would people on here who are anti-Hamas be anti-Native American due to them having animosity and hatred towards whites who were colonizing their lands and murdering their people? Would you consider Native Americans racists and reactionaries for having social hostilities towards those attempting to harm them?

I find it amusing how many people would tell militant Palestinians to sit back and wait until some kind of revolutionary proletarian force formulates itself before they struggle for liberation. Contrary to this ridiculous idealism, there are forces fighting for the liberation of Gaza from Israeli-American imperialism, but people are so obsessed with the movement's social values that they totally ignore this. The core of a revolutionary socialist's mindset should be recognizing every nation's right to self-determination and Palestinians are struggling for their self-determination through Hamas. Though Hamas may not be a progressive force by any means, it comes down to a choice between imperialist occupation and self-determination. The Palestinian people have supported Hamas immensely and this is shown by their massive electoral victories.

There's a struggle for liberation in Palestine and right now the only group that stands a chance at opposing the imperialist war machine is Hamas. There is no substantial workers movement that could challenge the efficient and highly-armed and highly-funded military imperialists in the area. All revolutionaries should call for Palestine's right to self-determination.


Take note Bob, it's the Stalin-kiddies backing you up.

Every time you call someone a Stalinist, an angel gets its wings.

[Hit The North]

Every time you call someone a Stalinist, an angel gets its wings.

Would those fortunate angels be the souls of Stalin's victims?

[Kassad]

Would those fortunate angels be the souls of Stalin's victims?

Actually, they're the souls of all the people forced to endure all 10 seasons of the show Friends.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Well I was referring to the construction of schools and hospitals and funding/running schools, orphanages, mosques, healthcare clinics, soup kitchens, and sports leagues.

Now I wonder why "vanguard parties" on the left overtly rejected this alternative culture stuff that characterized the pre-war SPD.

[Hezbollah does this, too.]

[welshboy]

I can't really speak for the SWP, but the reason I support Hamas is because they're leading the struggle against Israeli occupation, genocide and imperialism and for Palestinian national liberation. I think it's fucking disgusting how you think its perfectly acceptable to drop all support for an anti-imperialist resistance movement because they're, supposedly, anti-semitic, as if there aren't a million counter-points for supporting them.
I'm sorry but that's just politically ignorant. Supporting the Palestinian people does not mean supporting Hamas. Actually supporting the Palestinian people should mean opposing Hamas.


In case you haven't forgotten I'd like to remind you that Israel orchestrated a fucking genocide against the people of Gaza a few months ago, and the only resistance against this genocide was from Hamas.
Really? I hadn't noticed. It's not as if I've got friends in Gaza or anything... cock.


How the fuck do you justify denouncing the resistance of an oppressed people?
I support the resistance of the Palestinian people including the resistance to Hamas.


Is using liberal arguments, such as accusing them of anti-semitism, the best you can do?
How is it liberal to point out that Hamas are the class enemy you fucking retard!


Aren't there more important things to worry about like the survival of the Palestinian people, which Hamas is fighting for?
And tht survival includes the oppression of women, homosexuals and trade unionists eh?


Also I think you shouldn't be whining about people not tolerating other religions when you yourself have a Christian chauvinist and Islamophobic avatar yourself if you'd remove the newfag meme covering it.
Mohammed was a nonce fuck Christianity, fuck Islam and fuck you.


Claiming that Hamas is an anti-semitic organization as a whole is bizarre.
I thought the holocaust denial was a dead give away there.


Take a quick look at Hamas' wikipedia page and you'll find quotes by certain Hamas members showing respect for Jewish people or something similar.
Wikipedia lulz. Have a look at what Hamas actually do and you'll see they're a right wing political organisation supported by all the filth and detritus of the western left.


It's undoubtedly true that there are anti-semitic elements in Hamas, but these elements probably exist in every single Palestinian political organization because of anti-semitism produced by Israeli imperialism, so accusing Hamas of anti-semitism is as abhorrent as accusing the PFLP or something of anti-semitism.
No, no it's not you ignorant schmuck. Hamas have anti-semitism written into their constitution, something you fucks always tap dance around, and now they have deied the holocaust happened and have denounced it as a zionist lie.

[welshboy]

Like it or not, Hamas spearheaded the resistance against the Israeli invasion of Gaza. The SWP support them in that concrete struggle against the Zionist puppets of imperialism. That is all. When the Palestinian working class break with Hamas and form their own resistance, no doubt the SWP will support that.
So you'll happily support right wing extremists if it's poeple with funny colour skin? And you accuse me of being naive.


Some of you here act as if just talking about it on a message board or in your journals and papers, or raising it as a slogan in demonstrations in London or Paris or Seatle will summon up a secular, militant working class alternative to the reactionary theocrats in Gaza but, guess what, it won't.
And supporting right wing extremists will do that how?



Not only are you being a dick, you're also being politically naive. Hamas are not interested in debates about history, or what human atrocities should take precedence over other human atrocities.
Aside from they are and they're denying the holocaust? lolwut?


They are engaged in a propaganda war with Israel as the article you posted clearly demonstrates.
As are the BPP/NF etc... Your point becomes clear.


I have no idea if Hamas officially denies the Holocaust (I doubt they do), but they are right to attack the notion that the Holocaust should be used to justify the state of Israel or, what is the same thing, the theft of Palestine.
Let me see, protocalls of the elders of zion, check, holocaust denial, check.


Finally, you ignorant gentile,
Racist.

the Palestinian people themselves are Semites, so your accusation of anti-Semitism is clearly inaccurate.
Well done Bob. Not only are you supporting a far right organisation but now you're using the arguments of the far right. "I'm not an anti-semite I've no problem with Arabs". So Bob when are you going to give up the pretence and join the BPP/BFF/RVF/C18?



Unless, of course, you're claiming that they are 'self-haters' which is a typical and much used Zionist accusation against Jews who oppose Israel.
lolwut?


Of course, there might be a strong anti-Jewish sentiment coming from Hamas.
Protocols of the elders of zion, check, holocaust denial, check, 'roman salute, check.


But this is understandable given that it's the Jewish Israeli state which is fucking them over. Do you seriously think this sentiment is not rife among ordinary Palestinian workers? Are you going to call them anti-Semites and turn your back on them as well?
So we should support racist elements in the British working class then? tell me Bob when are the SWP going to produce their position on them dirty Polaks stealing our jobs then?
Again. Supporting the Palestianian people does not mean supporting Hamas any more than supporting the British people means supporting Labour.

[welshboy]

Supporting a faction against an imperialist, capitalist, racist regime is not anti-Semitic. Quite frankly, I could care less if Hamas is anti-Semitic, I would expect them to feel that way. A self proclaiming Jewish state constantly bombarding them with rockets while complaining to the world that the Arab community is not being sensitive about a tragedy that happened fifty years ago. Yes, they are ignorant but do you expect them to be geniuses? Palestinian children don't go to school because it is not safe. Hamas is their only fighting chance at life.
FFS.
That's right cos they're all living in holes in the ground in Gaza. You fucking moron. They do have schools and universities and internet cafe's and everything in Gaza you arrogant fuck. Well they would have if Hamas didn't burn down the internet cafe's and try and stunt peolples education by banning women from getting an education.
Remeber kiddies right wing extremists = baaaaaad. This website is supposed to of the revolutionary left, some fucking joke that is, and yet you all drop to your knees and start blowing the far right at first opportunity.

[welshboy]

Not only am I amazed by the incredible chauvanism displayed here, but I'm also amused by those people who think that a struggle for self-determination against imperialism is now somehow unjust because it isn't led by progressive forces. I'm sure you would maintain the same arguments talking to a Palestinian who lost their home and their family due to Israel's relentless bombing and assaults. "Sorry, but we can't support your struggle for independence because a nationalist force is leading you." Real cute.
So we should be opposed to leftists in the US as they are fighting against their elected representatives should we? Hamas do not equal the Palestinian people. Even if you give any creedence to liberal democracy, which a lot of you so called revolutionaries on here seem to, then when they got elected it was a piss poor turnout. To claim they have some sort of a mandate from the people is moronic.


I would address the ridiculous assertion that Palestinians being anti-Jewish is somehow anti-semitic,
Which is the argument used by the far right to cover up their anti-semitism. Anti-semitism means anti-jew. It does NOT refer to all semitic people.


but other people have covered that already. I mean, would people on here who are anti-Hamas be anti-Native American due to them having animosity and hatred towards whites who were colonizing their lands and murdering their people? Would you consider Native Americans racists and reactionaries for having social hostilities towards those attempting to harm them?
A) No one here who is opposed to Hamas does not support the Palestinian people. B) Of course we would be opposed to racism amongst Native Americans. Racism is a bad thing you know.


I find it amusing how many people would tell militant Palestinians to sit back and wait until some kind of revolutionary proletarian force formulates itself before they struggle for liberation.
Oh look, I maded you something!
http://foreignerinformosa.typepad.com/.a/6a00d834523d5069e20115710f98f6970b-800wi


Contrary to this ridiculous idealism, there are forces fighting for the liberation of Gaza from Israeli-American imperialism, but people are so obsessed with the movement's social values that they totally ignore this.

Aye, we should just accept anti-semitism, homophobia and misogyny so long as it's the exotic other that's doing it.


The core of a revolutionary socialist's mindset should be recognizing every nation's right to self-determination
Why? I thought the abolition of the nation state was part of the struggle for communism? Did I miss a meeting or something?


and Palestinians are struggling for their self-determination through Hamas.
The British working class are struggling for their emancipation through Labour.


Though Hamas may not be a progressive force by any means,
Try reactionary and far right.

it comes down to a choice between imperialist occupation and self-determination. The Palestinian people have supported Hamas immensely and this is shown by their massive electoral victories.
What massive electoral victories? And look at that wonderful display of false choices. That's the equivalent of GW's "you're either with us or against us" rhetoric.


There's a struggle for liberation in Palestine and right now the only group that stands a chance at opposing the imperialist war machine is Hamas.
lolwut? When did Hamas get so well armed?


There is no substantial workers movement that could challenge the efficient and highly-armed and highly-funded military imperialists in the area. All revolutionaries should call for Palestine's right to self-determination.
Which means supporting Hamas? Why would that be? You make some amazing logical leaps here. A lack of a left wing movement means we must support reactionary right wing extremists? :cursing:

[black magick hustla]

Not only am I amazed by the incredible chauvanism displayed here, but I'm also amused by those people who think that a struggle for self-determination against imperialism is now somehow unjust because it isn't led by progressive forces. I'm sure you would maintain the same arguments talking to a Palestinian who lost their home and their family due to Israel's relentless bombing and assaults. "Sorry, but we can't support your struggle for independence because a nationalist force is leading you." Real cute.

It is not support or "not support". bourgeois nationalists cannot break with imperialism - taking imperialism as some sort of narrative where the whiteys and the westerners are the cause of it and thus by "fighting" against those states we are fighting against imperialism is naive, shallow, and almost metaphysical. furthermore, shooting sugar powered rockets at random israel civilians is absolutely counterproductive - its ideological, symbolical, but the only people at the end of the day that are gonna get fucked in here are average palestinian citizens, not the leadership ordering it.


I would address the ridiculous assertion that Palestinians being anti-Jewish is somehow anti-semitic, but other people have covered that already. I mean, would people on here who are anti-Hamas be anti-Native American due to them having animosity and hatred towards whites who were colonizing their lands and murdering their people? Would you consider Native Americans racists and reactionaries for having social hostilities towards those attempting to harm them?

Actually a lot of middle easterns are incredibly antisemitic. I come from a middle eastern family. Native american hostility to whites might have been understandable at that historical framework but is at best miosguided.


I find it amusing how many people would tell militant Palestinians to sit back and wait until some kind of revolutionary proletarian force formulates itself before they struggle for liberation. Contrary to this ridiculous idealism, there are forces fighting for the liberation of Gaza from Israeli-American imperialism, but people are so obsessed with the movement's social values that they totally ignore this. The core of a revolutionary socialist's mindset should be recognizing every nation's right to self-determination and Palestinians are struggling for their self-determination through Hamas. Though Hamas may not be a progressive force by any means, it comes down to a choice between imperialist occupation and self-determination. The Palestinian people have supported Hamas immensely and this is shown by their massive electoral victories.

Self determination is an illusion, and the choice is not "imperialism or determination", but "imperialism or socialism".


There's a struggle for liberation in Palestine and right now the only group that stands a chance at opposing the imperialist war machine is Hamas. There is no substantial workers movement that could challenge the efficient and highly-armed and highly-funded military imperialists in the area. All revolutionaries should call for Palestine's right to self-determination.
I don't see how second hand firearms and sugar powered rockets stand a chance. Nor I see anyone winning anything out of this.

[The Bear]

i think that left organisations should really quit giving support to islamist militias... too much compromissing

[puke on cops]

Thank you Welshboy!

Just how well armed are Hammas?
If poorly (I've heard comparisons to horizontal fire-work displays before), then even in a heart-of-stone dead-eyed angle, they're not worth the pile of dead Palentinians they'll leave behind when Israel wipes them off the face of the Earth.

If heavily, then who do you think they'll turn on when they start reclaiming the land stolen from Israel? They'll be more confident, stronger, and they'll be more power-hungry.
Not a place I'd like to be if I was a queer Anarcho-communist... oh wait I am lol!

[The Bear]

hamas are dissarmed if you ask me since last invasion
they dont stand their own ground

about whole thing supporting hamas , if u were communist in gaza and wore commie marks on street , some hamas member would probably hang you

will i support them ? never...

[Sam_b]

if u were communist in gaza and wore commie marks on street , some hamas member would probably hang you

Substanciate your nonsense.

[The Bear]

Substanciate your nonsense.

..... just as they did in many similar countries - regions including Iran , Iraq , etc...

[h0m0revolutionary]

hamas are dissarmed if you ask me since last invasion
they dont stand their own ground

about whole thing supporting hamas , if u were communist in gaza and wore commie marks on street , some hamas member would probably hang you

will i support them ? never...

That's exactly what it comes down to.

Of course occasionally hamas and leftists will fire in the same direction, and yes, hamas can be loosely termed anti-imperialist when doing so, but the only force capable of principled and consistent anti-imperialism is the Palestinian and Israeli working classes!

Hamas have for years had a policy of systematically massacring Leftists in Palestine. Even the PFLP are dubbed as imperialist agents and are nto allowed to march through Gaza under Hamas's watch!

If the self-proclimaed 'internationlaists' in the West were half as quick to support fledgling, anti-imperlaist and working class orginisations in Palestine, that didn't want to create a theocratic state, Hamas would be fucked. The consequence of which would be the birth of a genuinely progressive anti-zionist movement.

[The Bear]

look basicly what if hamas does win some battle or make some point ? will it make peace ? no... only one who can bring peace are working classes of israel and palestine... not warlords , relligous extremists or bourgouise...

[KurtFF8]

If only the PFLP were the leading organization in the liberation of Palestine right now, this debate would be much more civil...

Hamas seems to me to be so popular do to the fact that the secular left of the Palestinian political establishment failed (for whatever reasons including internal and external) to resist Israel and achieve liberation. (See the massive rejection of the PLO in Gaza)

I read somewhere that every instance of fascism/fundamentalism is an index of a failed revolution, and I feel some here may see Hamas's popularity as an example of this.

Of course Hamas does good for the people of Gaza and is the lead resistance organization in that area, I don't see anyone refuting that claim.

That doesn't mean we have to turn around and be apologists for their far-right wing stance. It may not seem like a fair comparison to some but this would be like supporting the Taliban in Afghanistan because they are the leading resistance to US imperialism in Afghanistan.

While we certainly should support resistance itself, that doesn't mean we need to turn around and support the organizations that lead such resistance.

This doesn't mean my conclusion is that we should hope Hamas fails and Israel succeeds, obviously this stance would be a blatant imperialist apologist stance. So really we shouldn't even spend our time on whether Hamas is a "good" organization" or not, because we all know they are a far-right wing reactionary organization that would work against the Palestinian working class if given a different situation.

[puke on cops]

Substanciate your nonsense.

Ok then.

Google "TUC condemns attacks on palestinian trade unions"

[welshboy]

http://www.labournet.net/ukunion/0707/tucpal1.html

Report by TUC
Published: 12/07/07

Palestinian union confederation the PGFTU has suffered attacks from all sides in the last month, the TUC has revealed. The TUC General Secretary has protested to leaders in Israel and Palestine about the attacks, calling on them to allow Palestinian trade unionists to organise in peace. In addition, the TUC is calling on the British Government to do what it can to assist the Palestinian trade union movement.

Attacked from all sides

When Hamas took control of Gaza in June, the headquarters of the Palestinian General Federation of Trade Unions (PGFTU) was seized by Hamas gunmen and the staff were told to attend a meeting to discuss how unions should operate under Hamas rule - they refused. Since the start of the year, PGFTU Deputy General Secretary Rasem Al Bayari has suffered a rocket attack on his home (30 January) and the bombing of his office (2 February), all emanating from Hamas. The TUC has protested to former Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniya, insisting that PGFTU property be returned to its control, and that the trade union movement be allowed to go about its business free from harassment and violence.

Last week, on Wednesday 4 July, an Israeli army unit broke into the PGFTU branch office in Ramallah at 2am. They destroyed the main door, the entrance to the headquarters where they broke the internal doors to the offices, as well as filing cabinets and computers, searching for an excuse to justify the raid. The Ramallah office was the venue for the bilateral between the PGFTU and a TUC delegation in January this year. The TUC General Secretary has written directly to Israeli Defence Minister Ehud Barak, calling for an investigation and explanation, restitution to the PGFTU for the damage done, and an undertaking to avoid attacks on trade unions in the future.

Finally, on Tuesday 10 July, Shaher Sae’d, General Secretary of the PGFTU, was forcibly taken from a Nablus restaurant by masked gunmen, who threatened him and tried to force him to resign from his trade union position and to end his involvement in other Palestinian civil society organisations. Released after around half an hour, Sae’d refused to be intimidated by the gunmen’s threats and intends to carry on fulfilling his trade union functions and maintain his involvement in the other social organisations in which he is active. The TUC understands that the gunmen were members of Fatah, seeking to punish the PGFTU leader for being insufficiently anti-Hamas. TUC General Secretary Brendan Barber has called on Palestinian National Authority President Abbas, who he met in January with the PGFTU leadership, to ensure that trade unionists in Palestine are protected from threats to their lives and the lives of those around them, and to ensure that trade unionism, which is an essential part of the building of a democratic and independent state of Palestine, can be undertaken free of the threat of violence or coercion.

These are not isolated incidents. Public sector workers on strike earlier in the year over non-payment of wages were attacked by the security services of the then Hamas-led government, and a PGFTU MayDay demonstration in Nablus was broken up by the Israeli Defence Force.

Britain’s responsibilities

As well as letters to leaders in the Middle East, the TUC has called on the British Government to do more, by pressing the Israeli and Palestinian governments to protect the PGFTU and ordinary trade unionists from attacks and intimidation, and by doing more to support the PGFTU’s secular, democratic and peaceful approach to building civil society in Palestine.

Briefing document (700 words) issued 11 Jul 2007
http://www.tuc.org.uk/international/tuc-13494-f0.cfm

[The Feral Underclass]

The Federation of Independent & Democratic Trade Unions & Workers' Committees in Palestine is a split from the PGFTU (which is affiliated to Fatah) claiming there wasn't enough democracy inside the PGFTU, and in my view a better alternative.

[Leo]

Every time you call someone a Stalinist, an angel gets its wings.

Understandable, the ideology in question always had been been close to Christianity in its brutal practice, cults of personality and dogmatic manners.


If only the PFLP were the leading organization in the liberation of Palestine right now, this debate would be much more civil...

The PFLP is basically tailing Hamas itself, I don't see how it has a practice that is any better.


Hamas seems to me to be so popular do to the fact that the secular left of the Palestinian political establishment failed (for whatever reasons including internal and external) to resist Israel and achieve liberation. (See the massive rejection of the PLO in Gaza)

It is more due to the imperialist forces supporting Hamas initially (such as the US, also Israel) have basically proved stronger than those who supported the PLO (USSR, certain Arab states) - this is what Hamas owes its rise to, nothing else.


Of course Hamas does good for the people of Gaza and is the lead resistance organization in that area, I don't see anyone refuting that claim.

Hamas is an organization using the working population of Gaza as human shields for themselves in the most despicable manner. The so-called "resistance" they are "leading" consists of throwing a few missiles, mostly at civilians once in a while and hiding behind the working population when Israel attacks Palestinians. It is an organization murdering every dissident element they are capable of, and especially militant workers.

Hamas is an organization which is nothing but an accomplice of the Israeli state in murdering the working population of the area. There is no "resistance", just the barbaric butchery of the Palestinian working class. This is what the supporters of the IDF as well as Hamas are applauding.

[puke on cops]

"Of course Hamas does good for the people of Gaza and is the lead resistance organization in that area, I don't see anyone refuting that claim."

Capitalism and state here offer us education, medicine, public transport, music festivals, supermarkets full of yummy food, and pubs. I still want to see them hang.

[Revy]

A flamewar about the British SWP is basically a weekly tradition on RevLeft....

[KurtFF8]

"Of course Hamas does good for the people of Gaza and is the lead resistance organization in that area, I don't see anyone refuting that claim."

Capitalism and state here offer us education, medicine, public transport, music festivals, supermarkets full of yummy food, and pubs. I still want to see them hang.


But the entire point of my post was that it shouldn't follow that we support Hamas because of these facts. As you point out, Capitalists also provide "good" for people yet we obviously don't support them.


It is more due to the imperialist forces supporting Hamas initially (such as the US, also Israel) have basically proved stronger than those who supported the PLO (USSR, certain Arab states) - this is what Hamas owes its rise to, nothing else.

Interesting point. The politics of the cold war certainly had some nasty consequences in areas like this, but this doesn't particularly contradict my claim of the secular left failing in Gaza (as I said in my OP, "regardless of why)


Hamas is an organization using the working population of Gaza as human shields for themselves in the most despicable manner. The so-called "resistance" they are "leading" consists of throwing a few missiles, mostly at civilians once in a while and hiding behind the working population when Israel attacks Palestinians. It is an organization murdering every dissident element they are capable of, and especially militant workers.

Hamas is an organization which is nothing but an accomplice of the Israeli state in murdering the working population of the area. There is no "resistance", just the barbaric butchery of the Palestinian working class. This is what the supporters of the IDF as well as Hamas are applauding.

This is a good point. Hamas's resistance itself is not beneficial to the people of Gaza. Perhaps I was a little too hasty to agree with the idea that they lead any sort of valuable resistance.

We can certainly see the problems with taking anti-imperialism too far in this thread though. My analogy of the Taliban still stands of course.

[Red Dreadnought]

Thank you, Welshboy about this information. According "antiimperialism" many Trotskist groups are defending very reactionary gruops like progresive, especially in the case of SWP. SUPPORTING HAMAS, THEY ARE SUPPORTING A BRANCH OF BURGEOIS, and nowadays every branch of it are reactionary. And HAMAS it's specially reactionary, similar to NSDAP (more than Mussolini), denying the Holocaust, opressing women, represing strikes, etc.

It seems no possible distinguish between HAMAS leaders and rank and file ideology, because they have the same reactionary ideology. Possibly if you are living in Gaza is no easy to have another possition, but objectivelly they are reactionary.

[GregoryAButler]

Should they support the Zionist Israeli occupiers instead?


I came across this story the other day and was wondering how groups such as the SWP could justify their support for Hamas. I have seen SWP members on here desperately attempt to justify supporting Hamas and claiming that Hamas aren't anti-semitic any more. well here they are denying the holocaust or are the SWP going to start 'just questioning the numbers' now to appease their strange choice of bedfellows.

[GregoryAButler]

I'll ask you the same question I asked the other guy.

Should they be supporting the Zionist Israeli occupiers instead?

And if anybody in the region merits comparison to the Nazis or the Italian Fascists, it's the brutal settler colonial regime in Israel, and it's terroristic Israeli "Defense" Forces!

As revolutionaries in the imperialist world, it's our internationalist duty to support those who fight against imperialism, even if we have political differences with them.


Thank you, Welshboy about this information. According "antiimperialism" many Trotskist groups are defending very reactionary gruops like progresive, especially in the case of SWP. SUPPORTING HAMAS, THEY ARE SUPPORTING A BRANCH OF BURGEOIS, and nowadays every branch of it are reactionary. And HAMAS it's specially reactionary, similar to NSDAP (more than Mussolini), denying the Holocaust, opressing women, represing strikes, etc.

It seems no possible distinguish between HAMAS leaders and rank and file ideology, because they have the same reactionary ideology. Possibly if you are living in Gaza is no easy to have another possition, but objectivelly they are reactionary.

[Red Dreadnought]

So, arguments of SWP to justify its policies are pathetical. Are dramatically away of proletarian field. Probably, they think it's easy to "win Hamas people to Marxism" cause they are "antiimperialist fighters". Well but the history proves exactly the opposit.

[puke on cops]

No, we should recognise that we're pretty powerless, being that we aren't OVER THERE, IN FORCE AND ARMED.

What can we do, from our keyboards, our street corners? Not much. It's miserable, it's depressing and I get the feeling the SWP are just posturing to their mullah mates. It's not like their opinion would count if they weren't.

It's a shite state of affairs and all the messages of solidarity to one group or another won't make a blind bit of difference.

[Red Dreadnought]

Well, here we have a problem of "revolutionary theory". Some lefties are still defending "Theses of self-determination" of III International like a catholical dogma. If you take lessons of S XX, there are practical evidences of its failure. Its more accurate the possitions of Rosa Luxembourg: imperialism is a GLOBAL SISTEM, and every country on Earth its a piece of this sistem; there's no room for "antiimperialist" fights since 1917 (unless they were anticapitalist of course).

Now I'm going but I'll give bibliography (me or every comrade).

[welshboy]

Should they support the Zionist Israeli occupiers instead?

You're either with us or against us?
Are you ACTUALLY that dim that you think not supporting Hamas equates to supporting the actions of the Israeli state? Tell me. Did my being opposed to the UK/US invasion of Iraq mean that I supported Saddam Hussein? Does my opposition to UK troops being in Afghanistan mean that I support the Taliban?
Moron.

[welshboy]

even if we have political differences with them.

Having political differences with Hamas is the same as having political differences with the NSDAP. Pretty fucking irreconcilable if you ask me.

Do you support the Taliban?

[Spirit of Spartacus]

I have a question for the comrades who believe that the anti-Zionist sentiments of the people of Gaza are independent of Hamas.

What are anti-Zionist sentiments? Do they exist independently of political realities? Is anti-Zionism some sort of ethereal mist which floats above the working-people of Palestine, and has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that Hamas is seen as the leading opponent of Zionist terror?

See, comrades, my point is simple. As communists, of course we do not endorse the entire ideology of Hamas. But insofar as Hamas is currently leading the anti-Zionist resistance, on a political/military level as well as on the level of mass politics, it is rather ridiculous to say "I'm for anti-Zionism but I oppose Hamas".

We can only extend our support to all popular anti-imperialist forces in Palestine, and hope that the Marxist line of the PFLP, DFLP and PPP (Palestinian People's Party) prevails in the long-run over the Islamist ideology of Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

This is a long process. No struggle belongs to us communists per se. We have to enter various struggles, be they a simple trade union issue or a large-scale anti-Zionist resistance. Once we are IN the struggle, cooperating with all others who are sincere to that struggle (which in this case includes Hamas), then we can prove to the masses that our political lines are more emancipatory for the masses, and that we hold the interests of the working-people in even higher regard than other resistance factions (such as Hamas or Islamic Jihad or some parts of Fateh).

If we sit on the outside and issue a blanket condemnation of the organizations who are currently fighting Zionism on the ground (Hamas being a prominent one), while espousing a de-politicized and ethereal anti-Zionism, we'll get nowhere.

That will only strengthen Hamas and cement its leadership of the anti-Zionist resistance.

We need to get in there, work with whoever is already sailing the ship, and then prove that WE can sail the ship better than anyone else.

[Spirit of Spartacus]

Having political differences with Hamas is the same as having political differences with the NSDAP. Pretty fucking irreconcilable if you ask me.

Do you support the Taliban?

Comrade, it is utterly ridiculous to compare the Nazis with Hamas.

Have you learned nothing from Marx? Historical materialism? Historical CONTEXT, hello?

The Nazis were a Fascist force arising in an advanced capitalist, imperialist economy.

Hamas is a Third World resistance organization, arising out of a brutal imperialist occupation of one of the most brutalized people in human history.

Just because Hamas happens to be fighting against a Jewish state doesn't mean that they are anti-Semitic in any meaningful sense, or that they can be compared with the Nazis.

[Hit The North]

If the self-proclimaed 'internationlaists' in the West were half as quick to support fledgling, anti-imperlaist and working class orginisations in Palestine, that didn't want to create a theocratic state, Hamas would be fucked. The consequence of which would be the birth of a genuinely progressive anti-zionist movement.

You see, this is the voluntaristic nonsense we've come to expect from the anarchists: "If only the Left in the West had the correct analysis, the balance of class forces in Palestine would be magically transformed."

:rolleyes:

[luchtoibre]

That's exactly what it comes down to.

Of course occasionally hamas and leftists will fire in the same direction, and yes, hamas can be loosely termed anti-imperialist when doing so, but the only force capable of principled and consistent anti-imperialism is the Palestinian and Israeli working classes!

Hamas have for years had a policy of systematically massacring Leftists in Palestine. Even the PFLP are dubbed as imperialist agents and are nto allowed to march through Gaza under Hamas's watch!

If the self-proclimaed 'internationlaists' in the West were half as quick to support fledgling, anti-imperlaist and working class orginisations in Palestine, that didn't want to create a theocratic state, Hamas would be fucked. The consequence of which would be the birth of a genuinely progressive anti-zionist movement.what aload of pretentious bs.furthermore hamas have not been "..systematically massacreing leftists".and the whole point is supporting the palestinians not hamas.most palestinians don't support their politics either.....

[luchtoibre]

I have a question for the comrades who believe that the anti-Zionist sentiments of the people of Gaza are independent of Hamas.

What are anti-Zionist sentiments? Do they exist independently of political realities? Is anti-Zionism some sort of ethereal mist which floats above the working-people of Palestine, and has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that Hamas is seen as the leading opponent of Zionist terror?

See, comrades, my point is simple. As communists, of course we do not endorse the entire ideology of Hamas. But insofar as Hamas is currently leading the anti-Zionist resistance, on a political/military level as well as on the level of mass politics, it is rather ridiculous to say "I'm for anti-Zionism but I oppose Hamas".

We can only extend our support to all popular anti-imperialist forces in Palestine, and hope that the Marxist line of the PFLP, DFLP and PPP (Palestinian People's Party) prevails in the long-run over the Islamist ideology of Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

This is a long process. No struggle belongs to us communists per se. We have to enter various struggles, be they a simple trade union issue or a large-scale anti-Zionist resistance. Once we are IN the struggle, cooperating with all others who are sincere to that struggle (which in this case includes Hamas), then we can prove to the masses that our political lines are more emancipatory for the masses, and that we hold the interests of the working-people in even higher regard than other resistance factions (such as Hamas or Islamic Jihad or some parts of Fateh).

If we sit on the outside and issue a blanket condemnation of the organizations who are currently fighting Zionism on the ground (Hamas being a prominent one), while espousing a de-politicized and ethereal anti-Zionism, we'll get nowhere.

That will only strengthen Hamas and cement its leadership of the anti-Zionist resistance.

We need to get in there, work with whoever is already sailing the ship, and then prove that WE can sail the ship better than anyone else.maybe PFLP should get much more support from leftists abroad.

[KC]

maybe PFLP should get much more support from leftists abroad.The PFLP has shrunk to the point of insignificance. They simply tail Hamas nowadays.

Really, though, none of these groups offer a realistic response to Israeli aggression, and over the decades their tactics have proven to be largely ineffective. What is needed is a complete reevaluation of the entire situation and a realistic appraisal of not only Hamas, but the movement in general. I don't see this coming out of the support/oppose Hamas dichotomy any time soon.

[Spirit of Spartacus]

Originally Posted by h0m0revolutionary http://www.revleft.com/vb/swp-support-hamas-t116445/revleft/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/swp-support-hamas-t116445/showthread.php?p=1535299#post1535299)
That's exactly what it comes down to.

Of course occasionally hamas and leftists will fire in the same direction, and yes, hamas can be loosely termed anti-imperialist when doing so, but the only force capable of principled and consistent anti-imperialism is the Palestinian and Israeli working classes!

Hamas have for years had a policy of systematically massacring Leftists in Palestine. Even the PFLP are dubbed as imperialist agents and are nto allowed to march through Gaza under Hamas's watch!

If the self-proclimaed 'internationlaists' in the West were half as quick to support fledgling, anti-imperlaist and working class orginisations in Palestine, that didn't want to create a theocratic state, Hamas would be fucked. The consequence of which would be the birth of a genuinely progressive anti-zionist movement.


LOL!

And how do you explain this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHjt5hNOPds

A video showing this year's May Day rallies in Gaza. See all those red flags and stuff? Labor unions, leftists, communists, hello?

This is Gaza. Do you see Hamas trying to stop it?

These are leftists who have won so much legitimacy for their consistent anti-imperialist struggle, that Hamas cannot and does not want to clamp down on them.

Please try to keep up with the real world from time to time. Interesting stuff goes on there, you know? :P

[Spirit of Spartacus]

The PFLP has shrunk to the point of insignificance. They simply tail Hamas nowadays.

Really, though, none of these groups offer a realistic response to Israeli aggression, and over the decades their tactics have proven to be largely ineffective. What is needed is a complete reevaluation of the entire situation and a realistic appraisal of not only Hamas, but the movement in general. I don't see this coming out of the support/oppose Hamas dichotomy any time soon.


The PFLP is once again gaining support, and is working through mass fronts in the working-class and peasantry, while maintaining a significant armed presence in both Gaza and the West Bank.

Comrade, I'd say that while your argument for a realistic appraisal of Hamas, the Palestinian left and anti-Zionism is correct, I'll have to disagree with your rather pessimistic view of the Palestinian left.

They're really a model for the rest of us communists in the Third World.

[luchtoibre]

The PFLP has shrunk to the point of insignificance. They simply tail Hamas nowadays.

Really, though, none of these groups offer a realistic response to Israeli aggression, and over the decades their tactics have proven to be largely ineffective. What is needed is a complete reevaluation of the entire situation and a realistic appraisal of not only Hamas, but the movement in general. I don't see this coming out of the support/oppose Hamas dichotomy any time soon.
i meant they need more support, financial support .and pflp,dflp,ppp,etc arent exactly insignificant...maybe they arent on the telly as much has hamas thats all.