Are you marking the start of WWII? [Archive]

Das war einmal

1st September 2009, 14:01

Poland was a semi-fascist state, I have no hard feelings towards the USSR invading Poland, it was all necessary for the victory of the USSR. Let me make it clear that Katyn was an atrocity but there is some hypocrisy in the making here all talk about Katyn but no word in the bourgeois media about the assassination of thousands Soviet soldiers in the Polish prison camps in 1920.

OneNamedNameLess

1st September 2009, 14:41

Not really. There have been so many significant events in global history and much bloodshed. As for Poland being a semi fascist state as the above user refers to it as, the loss of life on all sides was horrendous. I feel for Poland and what happened to it's people throughout the duration of the war. However, atrocities were committed on all sides during this period of history. I feel that it's hypocritical to condemn Poland for their use of prison camps when you are siding with the USSR :rolleyes:

JimmyJazz

1st September 2009, 16:56

I'm sprinkling extra brown sugar on my oatmeal to celebrate the start of WWII as we speak.

Wanted Man

1st September 2009, 18:46

Perhaps with a game of Hearts of Iron. 2, because I'm only a poor little student with a shit PC.

I'd like to make a better post than this, but these newsbot threads don't offer much to discuss about.

JimmyJazz

1st September 2009, 18:51

Yeah - honestly, some of them (like this one) should be moved to chit-chat.

rednordman

1st September 2009, 19:07

Not surprisingly now everyone wants to blame Russias Soviet Union for absolutly everything. Its funny how this has come at a time when more and more people are seeing capitalism as a bad thing. Just check out all the stuff on the BBC website about how Russia was really at fault etc etc..They even have a statement from ultimate anti-communist Orlando Figes.

Absolutly nothing is mentioned about the role of the west and how capitalism back then had a huge role in all this.

I have nothing wrong with people critising the Soviet Unions role in all this, but can see where this is all going. Especially when it is coming from a Polish source. Lets just say that im finding this quite unnerving that some of the former eastern block countries do actually seem to be going slightly fascistic.

I wouldnt surprise that soon kids will get taught that Nazism only happened as a reaction to the threat of communism.

Wanted Man

1st September 2009, 20:06

Actually, I just did think of a few lines to say on this. By now, it really should be expected, but I was kind of surprised by the boldness in which politicians are now using WWII as a stick to beat communism with. Polish and Baltic nationalists are really fond of this by now. Merkel can't afford saying something like this, because it would rightly cause an uproar about claims of "Germany as a victim nation" and stuff like that. But other countries are a lot quicker at rehabilitating the fascist past.

In reality, the Polish dictatorship of the 1930s had no problem with sending working people to die for their territorial aspirations. This was apparently kosher as long as victories were achieved, like against the Soviets in the 1920s and the dismemberment of Czechoslovakia, from which the Polish state benefited slightly. Of course, for nationalists, it's easy to sweep these things under the rug.

One thing I noticed, is that apparently there are people who want to mark the day of the pact signing as a "commemoration of totalitarianism". Another sign that our benevolent leaders no longer need hypocritical "anti-fascism". It's not just in the Baltics either, our own government has already turned the commemoration of the WWII dead into a commemoration of all soldiers (including "peacekeeping missions" and genocidal operations like in Indonesia) who have died... At least in Germany, they are finally commemorating deserters from the Wehrmacht, who were seen as traitors well after the war.

In any case, the equalisation of communism with fascism is ongoing, and will intensify whenever the war itself is commemorated.

TheCultofAbeLincoln

2nd September 2009, 02:59

Poland was certainly run by a dictatorship, but like other peoples caught in the crosshairs of brutal superpowers, I do feel for those who had to endure the war, all politics aside. Also, I deeply disagree with the sentiment that, because contemporary Poles may use the occupations to justify bashing Russia, that the invasion somehow means anything less.

Kill without pity or mercy all men, women and children of Polish descent or language.... Be merciless. Be brutal. It is necessary to proceed with maximum severity. The war is to be a war of annihilation.

Small Geezer

2nd September 2009, 03:13

Who is that quote by?

Idealism

2nd September 2009, 03:42

Revy

2nd September 2009, 04:22

well, I hope World War III doesn't happen this month.

Link (http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/07/27/gates.mideast/)
Link 2 (http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=78730&sectionid=351020104)

RadioRaheem84

2nd September 2009, 04:43

Absolutly nothing is mentioned about the role of the west and how capitalism back then had a huge role in all this.

You're kidding right? You mean people are actually hiding the FACT that lassiez-faire economics played a huge role in the culmination of WWII? The whole reason why people turned to Fascism in the first place was because Free Market Capitalism was totally discredited in the eyes of the people. They weren't even thinking of that or liberal democracy as a viable option at the time. Liberalism was a major major component as to why WWII happened. Communism was the other option but was largely subdued thanks to the violent and propagandist nature of the Fascists.

These facts are so blatant that it would take an entire whitewashing of the few years before WWII.

Revy

2nd September 2009, 04:53

You're kidding right? You mean people are actually hiding the FACT that lassiez-faire economics played a huge role in the culmination of WWII? The whole reason why people turned to Fascism in the first place was because Free Market Capitalism was totally discredited in the eyes of the people. They weren't even thinking of that or liberal democracy as a viable option at the time. Liberalism was a major major component as to why WWII happened. Communism was the other option but was largely subdued thanks to the violent and propagandist nature of the Fascists.

These facts are so blatant that it would take an entire whitewashing of the few years before WWII.

The German economy went through what is called hyperinflation, their money became worthless, a reichsmark was not even a penny in their eyes. It was just worthless.

the currency conversion rate was 4.2 billion reichsmarks to the dollar.

RadioRaheem84

2nd September 2009, 05:22

The German economy went through what is called hyperinflation, their money became worthless, a reichsmark was not even a penny in their eyes. It was just worthless.

the currency conversion rate was 4.2 billion reichsmarks to the dollar.

Sounds like Zimbabwe. But seriously, how is this not a staple of capitalism?

rednordman

2nd September 2009, 19:09

You're kidding right? You mean people are actually hiding the FACT that lassiez-faire economics played a huge role in the culmination of WWII? The whole reason why people turned to Fascism in the first place was because Free Market Capitalism was totally discredited in the eyes of the people. They weren't even thinking of that or liberal democracy as a viable option at the time. Liberalism was a major major component as to why WWII happened. Communism was the other option but was largely subdued thanks to the violent and propagandist nature of the Fascists.

These facts are so blatant that it would take an entire whitewashing of the few years before WWII.I totally agree with you, but it does seem to me that this is getting whitewashed alittle bit from history (in the west at least). Its a bit like they are trying to take blame off capitalisms back and lay it all elsewhere. I not saying that the actions of the Soviet Union where ok though. But If i was to say that capitalism was the main cause for the ww2 ultimatley, than i think that people would just say that im biast towards marxism and the soviet union (as in saying that non of those could ever be right ever-only western liberalism).

Sam_b

2nd September 2009, 19:21

Its important historically that we mark days like this, and always remember that there was absolutely no glory in this, yet another imperialist war.

TheCultofAbeLincoln

2nd September 2009, 23:39

Who is that quote by?

Hitler. He said it to some group of Wehrmacht soldiers a few days before the...Poles attacked a German radio station (or whatever bs they framed it as).

Kwisatz Haderach

3rd September 2009, 06:37

Lets just say that im finding this quite unnerving that some of the former eastern block countries do actually seem to be going slightly fascistic.
Slightly?

If Germany treated Jews the way the Baltic states treat Russians, everyone would immediately call them Nazis - and for good reason.

Actually, I just did think of a few lines to say on this. By now, it really should be expected, but I was kind of surprised by the boldness in which politicians are now using WWII as a stick to beat communism with. Polish and Baltic nationalists are really fond of this by now.
That is in part a desperate reaction to their domestic problems. Governments in Eastern Europe never had much popular legitimacy to begin with, and the recession has eroded what little they had. They must use ultra-nationalism because it's the last argument they have to try to evoke some loyalty in their citizens. When the average Baltic working person asks the government, "why should I listen to you?", the only credible answer they have left is "because we saved you from communism!" Everything else, like talking about democracy or economic growth, sounds like a cruel joke.

In any case, the equalisation of communism with fascism is ongoing, and will intensify whenever the war itself is commemorated.
On the other hand, the same war - especially the part between 1941 and 1945 - is also the most visible, obvious, blatant expression of the hostility and opposition between communism and fascism. Millions of people on each side fought and died to destroy the other.

Therefore, WWII can also be used as pro-communist propaganda. That potential can never be taken away, and we should do more to use it to its fullest extent. 2011 will mark the 70th anniversary of Operation Barbarossa.

RadioRaheem84

3rd September 2009, 16:45

To the Americans it was an obvious attempt to flex their muscle. To Leftists everywhere, it was an international fight against Fascism.

Sam_b

3rd September 2009, 16:51

The fighting of fascism was absolutely immaterial to the war itself, which is why we saw the policy of appeasement etc coming out of the Chamberlain government. Thousands of people did join to fight fascism, yes, but that didn't stop the whole point and intent of the war as being an inter-imperialist conflict.

RadioRaheem84

3rd September 2009, 19:25

It was total war and many different people joined for different reasons. There were many leftists that saw this as a fight against Fascism and enlisted in the US army despite the fact that they knew the US was in it for their own gain. Many resistance fighters who were staunch leftists assisted US Marines in Holland and France. Sometimes in total world war you have to align yourself with the lesser of two evils. It was a fight against Fascism.

Although, I admit the war was WAY romanticized and mythologized by the Allies after the war. I remember hearing stories from some vets I know about how they would be in remote villages in Europe and find graffiti there for the troops saying "The Russians are the real enemies" or something akin to that. And it was not written by people sympathetic to the Nazis. It was written by local villagers who felt the brunt of both Nazism and Stalinism.

The vets would also explain how some soldiers raped local women, shot civilians they got into bar fights with, they would hear about the whole destruction of certain towns with civilians, beheadings. I mean the point was that it was a VERY immoral time where dignity mattered squat. By his account the only real "moral" soldiers of any stripe he met were the Brits.

Point is, I wonder what an accurate depiction of WWII would like on film? Could one even pull it off? I mean, the problem with a war movie is that no matter what the audience will always root for a side no matter how repulsive. So is there anyway to show that nearly all the parties involved committed acts of atrocities?

Soviet

4th September 2009, 10:41

And who said that the WW2 began in 1939?For example,Chineese are sure that it started in Julay,1937 when Japan attacked China.
And why not?
Maybe somebody have another supposition?
So,when did the WW2 began?

Wakizashi the Bolshevik

4th September 2009, 12:19

Ultimately WWII had many positive effects, such as the spreading of Communism over Eastern Europe and Asia and the launch of the USSR as a superpower.
As Ludo Martens once wrote every war against Communism has made Communism stronger. The First World War, a reactionary war that sent millions of proletarians to die for their imperialist rulers, resulted in the creation of the first Proletarian Socialist nation in Russia. The Second World War, a war of agression by the most terrible reactionary capitalist forces of nazism, resulted in the USSR being a superpower and ultimately in Communism liberating one third of the world's population.

Fietsketting

4th September 2009, 12:24

Poland was a semi-fascist state, I have no hard feelings towards the USSR invading Poland, it was all necessary for the victory of the USSR.

None the less, the USSR had no business there. Just as warhungry as the nazi's dividing a country among themselves.

Revy

4th September 2009, 12:30

Ovi

4th September 2009, 12:39

It was total war and many different people joined for different reasons. There were many leftists that saw this as a fight against Fascism and enlisted in the US army despite the fact that they knew the US was in it for their own gain. Many resistance fighters who were staunch leftists assisted US Marines in Holland and France. Sometimes in total world war you have to align yourself with the lesser of two evils. It was a fight against Fascism.

Although, I admit the war was WAY romanticized and mythologized by the Allies after the war. I remember hearing stories from some vets I know about how they would be in remote villages in Europe and find graffiti there for the troops saying "The Russians are the real enemies" or something akin to that. And it was not written by people sympathetic to the Nazis. It was written by local villagers who felt the brunt of both Nazism and Stalinism.

The vets would also explain how some soldiers raped local women, shot civilians they got into bar fights with, they would hear about the whole destruction of certain towns with civilians, beheadings. I mean the point was that it was a VERY immoral time where dignity mattered squat. By his account the only real "moral" soldiers of any stripe he met were the Brits.

The same thing my grandmother told me. When the nazi germans came in my country, they ended up being nice people, even helping the villagers. When the russians invaded the country they pillaged, raped women and did what the hell they wanted. And no, operation Barbarossa was not a war between communism and fascism but between Germany and the USSR.

LuÃs Henrique

4th September 2009, 14:10

When the nazi germans came in my country, they ended up being nice people, even helping the villagers.

You must be kidding.

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/nazioccupation/romanianjews.html

Sometimes I have the impression some Eastern Europe "nationalists" ressent more the Soviet than the Nazi occupation because the Soviets would suppress the national sport of pogrom.

Luís Henrique

Pirate turtle the 11th

4th September 2009, 14:15

I personally rose this fine day and saluted the union flags all round my house and then woke everyone up with a chorus of god save the queen.

Comrade Marxist Bro

5th September 2009, 04:15

The same thing my grandmother told me. When the nazi germans came in my country, they ended up being nice people, even helping the villagers. When the russians invaded the country they pillaged, raped women and did what the hell they wanted. And no, operation Barbarossa was not a war between communism and fascism but between Germany and the USSR.

My grandmother told me that the nazi germans put people into ghettoes and shipped them off to the gas chambers.

Weirdest post I've ever seen. Whose side did Romania fight World War II on?

Ovi

11th September 2009, 15:32

You must be kidding.

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/nazioccupation/romanianjews.html

How does that change anything? I was not talking about the crimes of the nazis against the jews, but about the german soldiers and the villagers.

My grandmother told me that the nazi germans put people into ghettoes and shipped them off to the gas chambers.

Weirdest post I've ever seen.

Weird or not, as far as I know they did not pillage nor rape like the soviet soldiers did, that was the only thing I said.

Whose side did Romania fight World War II on?
Both.

Spark

12th September 2009, 08:42

The war was a result of the conspiracies and plots of imperialist reaction. Just like in 1914, World War II was the consequence of capitalism's uneven development and the interimperialist, interimperialist contradictions, and of the struggle for markets, raw materials, spheres of influence, and capitalist investment. The war broke out in the context when Russia, the world's first socialist state, existed and was growing stronger. The hostile capitalist groupings, while fighting each other, simultaneously strove to destroy the Soviet union. In its origin, it was an imperialist war, and the responsibility for it lies with imperialist forces. Germany, which headed the aggressor forces, had a special responsibility for the outbreak of the war.

did not pillage nor rape like the soviet soldiers didI don't appreciate slandering the grandfathers of my nation as marauding rapists, especially when it did not happen on a large scale. These kind of crimes were in fact committed by the Romanian fascist hordes on a horrific scale during their occupation of southwestern Russia. Contrary to what you state, Soviet soldiers were welcomed in open arms by the Romanian people, as one Romanian scholar proves in his book:

"On August 30 and 31, the big Soviet units passing through Bucharest were greeted by the population with flags and flowers."

Ovi

14th September 2009, 18:21

The war was a result of the conspiracies and plots of imperialist reaction. Just like in 1914, World War II was the consequence of capitalism's uneven development and the interimperialist, interimperialist contradictions, and of the struggle for markets, raw materials, spheres of influence, and capitalist investment. The war broke out in the context when Russia, the world's first socialist state, existed and was growing stronger. The hostile capitalist groupings, while fighting each other, simultaneously strove to destroy the Soviet union. In its origin, it was an imperialist war, and the responsibility for it lies with imperialist forces. Germany, which headed the aggressor forces, had a special responsibility for the outbreak of the war.

I don't appreciate slandering the grandfathers of my nation as marauding rapists, especially when it did not happen on a large scale.

I'm not slandering anyone, that's exactly what my grandmother told me. Why would you take that personally?

These kind of crimes were in fact committed by the Romanian fascist hordes on a horrific scale during their occupation of southwestern Russia.

"My nation did not do anything wrong by occupying other countries...Those of your kind are fascist criminals". Nationalist fuck!

Contrary to what you state, Soviet soldiers were welcomed in open arms by the Romanian people, as one Romanian scholar proves in his book:

"On August 30 and 31, the big Soviet units passing through Bucharest were greeted by the population with flags and flowers."
Why would people greet some imperialist invaders?