Do you consider racist people "Innocent"

[Radical]

Being innocent all comes down to an opinion. I want to know yours.

Do you consider Racist/Fascist people innocent?
Would you condone people that physically attack Fascists/Racists, solely for the reason that they advocate oppression?

If somebody was to murder a female member of the BNP, for the very fact she was a fascist. Would you consider the murderer a "bad" person?

[FreeFocus]

Hell no, they aren't innocent. Nonetheless, I don't support attacks on them unless they are organizing for violence. Still, I wouldn't shed tears for them, but it's dicey once we get into the territory of killing people just for thinking certain things.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Innocent of what?

[Muzk]

Even though their opinion is bad, they are free to have any, just when it comes down to violence people should act.

There is always hope for education.

Nevertheless, I guess it depends on the situation, and not to ever let subjective hatred judge others.

[genstrike]

Depends on age and degree of racism.

Most people being brought up in our society, while they wouldn't describe themselves as racist and wouldn't be caught dead in a white robe and pointy hat, do have some degree of latent racism which can from time to time show itself. So we do have a challenge cut out for us in educating people.

[RadioRaheem84]

Racism is not only inherent with facsism but also in the working class movements. There could be a guy who's been involved with the unions, votes Democratic, wants to see a universal health care plan and everything but is as racist as David Duke. This is normal. I don't consider their personal views as such a focus for me as much as their political ones. That is the only reason why I fight fascists, its because theey want to politically instill their racist ideology into practice.
It's also when they start to use violence that I really care and will defend the victim.

Not to go off topic but racism shouldnt only be seen as a "fascist" thing. This goes for the old white guy who grew up around the Jim Crow days or a pissed off black guy who grew up hating white people for what they did. Racism swings both ways. But no they're not innocent. It is a product of their generation but that doesnt mean they have to live by that code.

All in all, issues of race are of little concern for me except for when they factor economically or violence against others is concerned. I differ with a lot of my comrades in that I dont care about changing the minds of any hardcore racists or excuse any excessive things people of color do as acts because of years of victimization.

[Pogue]

This is of course very context dependent. For example, there are different levels of 'racism', from naive assumptions based upon ignorance, through to concioussly agressive attempts to demonise and harm. Nick Griffin, for example, is clearly an aggressive racist who knows what he is doing and what he wants to get from it, whereas say, some people I know who say 'Paki' but don't have any serious hatred for Asian people is just ignorant and naive. I don't hate such people, they are not 'evil' or 'guilty', they are just as I said naive, easily influenced.

[JimmyJazz]

Even the strictly legal ones are organizing for an eventual system in which wide-scale violence can be carried out against minorities. The only difference between Nick Griffin and a skinhead who bashes some immigrant in the street is that Nick Griffin is more patient and thinks more long-term. They both have violence against minorities as their ultimate goal. They are morally equivalent.

So, does that mean we should go out and kill the suit-wearing fascists of the world like Nick Griffin? No, we have to be as patient as they are, or more so. But we should obviously be prepared for the eventuality that such people would have to be killed, by us--that is, if they were ever to get power and try to implement their vile, violent, racist program.

[red cat]

First differentiate the people by their class. A capitalist who is a racist or fascist is beyond reformation and in violent contradiction with the working class. I support their forceful subordination and if necessary, eradication.

On the other hand, a worker who supports fascism or racism AND DOES NOT GET A HANDSOME AMOUNT FOR PROPAGANDISING is clearly ignorant of his real class interests. Educate him.

[pierrotlefou]

There are no innocents but education is the best way to show a majority of them the wrongness of their actions. A lot of people in the US are pretty racist but most of it is not with intent. They're caught up in local and "hereditary" racism. "It's all they have known" is the most common excuse. But, If they were shown why instead of just being scorned and told they're wrong, I think they would be more receptive and have a better chance of change.

[fiddlesticks]

Ignorant, yes but not innocent.


Would you condone people that physically attack Fascists/Racists, solely for the reason that they advocate oppression?

I don't really condone violence period, but if said racists/fascists are planning a violent attack on innocent people then something needs to be done to stop them.


If somebody was to murder a female member of the BNP, for the very fact she was a fascist. Would you consider the murderer a "bad" person?

I would consider the murderer mentally unstable for thinking that was a justified death.

[F9]

I can say that i dont have one and clear answer to this things, to consider all of them innocent or not, even as a militant antifascist, i can say that as like in most cases, things can and are different from people to people.
In general taking of the point, of course and i do not take racism and especially fascism as "innocent"...

[Radical]

My opinion with Fascists is that we are truly at war with them. They go against everything we want to achieve. We're both Revolutionary groups that want to force our will onto the majority.

We should think of them as the enemie and be prepared to fight to resist their oppressive ideas. Think of the them as a Country that wants to impose its country onto another country. They want to impose their oppressive beliefs onto us. We must stop them one way or another. If we'd be willing to attack soldiers of another country for whatever reason. Why shouldent we be willing to attack soldiers of fascism, that are exactly the same as soldiers of a country, but instead soldiers of a political idealogy.

Isen't Political idealogy something we should be more inclined to fight for? Rather than a minority(country)

[LOLseph Stalin]

Racists are far from innocent. Just the other day I saw somebody intentionally stereotype all blacks as low-life drug addicts(as a reason not to support welfare). Not to mention they added to the burn by using the the "N" word. I basically told the person to fuck off and recieved hate mail in the process. I honestly don't see how people like that would be "innocent".

[Eat the Rich]

First of all there's a huge difference between racist and fascist. It would be a huge mistake to confuse the two.

I would say racists are just a social-product. In general Men’s consciousness does not determine their social being, but their social being determines their consciousness. In a capitalist society, a big portion of the population is racist, due to the social-forces, the (somewhat) succesful efforts of the bourgeoisie to divide the proletariat along "racial" lines etc. It is a given though that those peoples' consciousness will change, when the objective conditions change.

Flowing from that, we should not persecute racists, demonize and attack them mercilesly, but patiently explain, with the understanding that yes they are "innocent" and their mentality is subject to change. This change of course is tied with the change of the society.

[SoupIsGoodFood]

Guilty of what? Thought crime? Unless they act violently or coercively on their racist or fascist beliefs, they aint guilty of shit.

[SubcomandanteJames]

Ignorant thoughts should be eliminated through education.
Ignorant actions should be eliminated through action.

[Rjevan]

No, they are absolutely not innocent! Fascists actively choose their policies and want to spread their violent, vicious and ignorant world view so everybody who lables himself a fascist made his choice and therefore cannot be innocent and though it definitely can't be the solution to simply kill all of them, since that wouldn't eliminate the problems and ways of thinking that made them fascists I wouldn't shed one single tear if one of them gets killed.

As for racism: in my opinion racist people are also not innocent, I know that we have to differ between genuine racists and "the ordinary man" who "has no bad intentions about it", gets influenced by the public and some sort of "basic racism" which seems common in the society and therefore is slightly racist but hell, what for do we have a brain? Ignorance should be no excuse, everybody has a brain and and there's nothing on this planet that keeps you from using it, so for god's sake use it! Everybody who thinks only a little bit for himself and takes a closer look to racist/facist arguments like "Those dirty xxx scum steals our jobs and women!" or "Eveybody knows that xxx are thives and liars!" has to see how stupid, unlogic, contradictionary and false they are and that "xxx" are not less worth than themselves and are humans just as they are.
So no, these people are not innocent, they are guilty of not using their brain, a terrible crime which caused uncountable missery and suffering throughout history.

What do I think we should do? Fight the fascists by all means and educate the people by all means.

[communard resolution]

If we'd be willing to attack soldiers of another country for whatever reason.

Except I'm not willing to do that. Are you?

[n0thing]

What good would killing them do? Even if we did all agree to adhere to this Stalinist concept that it's appropriate to kill or repress people simply because of what they believe, how would it help? It's much more likely that doing something like that would simply further radicalise fascists and attract sympathizers, rather than do the ideology damage.

If the BNP ever become a serious threat to established powers (no they aren't), I'll change my tune.

[Cobalt]

Ignorant thoughts should be eliminated through education.
Ignorant actions should be eliminated through action.

This is where I am as well. I don't consider people who say or do racist things to be "innocent" because there is very real harm in what they do, whether they care enough to consider it or not.

However, whether someone "deserves" to be retaliated against is not always the most important consideration. Sometimes it's more prudent to deal with people as though they deserved better than what they probably do, which seems to be the case with a lot of anti-racist, anti-sexist, etc. work. Frequently that means educating people instead of... well, shooting them like they're an actively violent enemy soldier (even if the harm they do might potentially be comparable).

[Wakizashi the Bolshevik]

They aren't innocent at all. They're highly dangerous.

[communard resolution]

I think that whole "let's kill all racists" spiel is an immature fantasy that is going absolutely nowhere. People change - give them the chance to.

As for fascists - if they attack, you've got to fight back. We would all do what we would have to do in a given situation. I see no point whatsoever in murdering individual BNP members at this point.

[Enragé]

i don't mind racists and fascists, as long as they don't organise, come together, and start becoming a menace on the streets (for them to do this however, they need not be big).

Once they have done so, kick them off the streets, disrupt their meetings - use the violence necessary. And yea, if anyone here has ever seen Battleship Potemkin.. that fascist didnt get out alive. I understand.

As soon as racists and fascists march through a neighbourhood unopposed, racial violence shoots up - this is fact.

[Cobalt]

It's important to point out that racist people do harm just by existing and believing the things they believe. They don't have to actively be lynching people to be doing harm to individuals and society overall. They just have to be more inclined to care less about POC who are executed for crimes they didn't commit, beaten by police officers, raped by white people, and prevented from giving their children any better than they themselves have.

Racist thoughts and beliefs are themselves hurtful and harmful to POC, but they're also hurtful and harmful to white people as well. A white person who gets used to the idea that certain kinds of people are "less" than other kinds is experiencing a wearing away of their integrity and empathy that isn't good for them, either. A white person who believes these things lets them go unchallenged or even reinforces them in others, and is therefore participating in a system that is harmful and requires nothing but passive acceptance to keep going.

I just wanted to establish that racists don't have to be violent to be a cause of violence. Not everybody seems to grok that distinction, and I feel it's really important (so I apologize if it seems like I'm preaching to the choir here, but it seemed worth saying just in case). So... "innocent?" Hell no. Not even a bit. There are actively malicious people who cause less damage than one thoughtless and accidental racist, so "innocence" is right out as a descriptor.

Even so, there are often better ways to deal with racist oppressors than violence, because giving them what they deserve is not always the most productive avenue. Far better to make an ally of them or, failing that, use them as an object example of what not to do so that allies can be made of others. Those are useful things to do, and they have nothing to do with whether racists "deserve" violent reprisals.

That said... I'm not going to say that a POC who's dealt with racism all their life is unjustified in leaping to violence, since it's not my job to police their emotions. They've had enough of people telling them how they can feel and react to being shat upon, so even though I think that violence against racist people is not justified... that's not always my call to make, and I will frequently defer to a POC's judgment if they see a need for violence and act accordingly.

[Comrade B]

If the fascist or racist were doing nothing to harm anyone, they should not be harmed, only re-educated. My grandfather fought in the Nazi army, after being captured and sent to a POW re-education camp, he was firmly anti-fascist (still only an American Democrat though) and no different than any other non-political person.

However if a person is harming someone in some way because of their race, they have whatever the fuck is coming to them.

[Zolken]

Show me a single racist that is peace-loving. As thought precedes words and words precede action likewise the banding together of racists leads to criminal behavior and the only reason racists aren't guilty at present owes to the fact that they haven't found sufficient numbers to turn their words into action.

[Comrade B]

I know plenty of idiots who don't plan on hurting people, the world has a lot more racists than you may think.
They may not be peace-loving, but they aren't dangerous either.

[Wakizashi the Bolshevik]

I think that whole "let's kill all racists" spiel is an immature fantasy that is going absolutely nowhere. People change - give them the chance to.

As for fascists - if they attack, you've got to fight back. We would all do what we would have to do in a given situation. I see no point whatsoever in murdering individual BNP members at this point.
Killing them individually at this time is indeed not very fruitful.
But what about after the Revolution?

[communard resolution]

Killing them individually at this time is indeed not very fruitful.
But what about after the Revolution?

After the revolution they will be offered employment as clowns in side shows so children can laugh at them. Who's to take them seriously once the agars that they feed on have been removed?

If they still cause trouble, I'm sure the people will be able to acquaint them with some productive tasks. Quarrying, for instance. ;)

[LOLseph Stalin]

Killing them individually at this time is indeed not very fruitful.
But what about after the Revolution?

No, killing them now wouldn't reflect well upon us. After the revolution however, they will likely be classified as counter-revolutionaries and dealt with accordingly. Whatever this method may be is best left up to the particular community to decide.

[Dimentio]

Being innocent all comes down to an opinion. I want to know yours.

Do you consider Racist/Fascist people innocent?
Would you condone people that physically attack Fascists/Racists, solely for the reason that they advocate oppression?

If somebody was to murder a female member of the BNP, for the very fact she was a fascist. Would you consider the murderer a "bad" person?

I am all for verbal violence against fascists if they haven't done anything violent themselves. But I think murder of a fascist just for being a fascist is dishonourable and counterproductive.

[The Essence Of Flame Is The Essence Of Change]

How do you define innocent?Every person's actions are underlined by his character and a person's character is shaped by nothing else than his genetic code and influences from the enviroment.To argue against that would need you to bring the concept of ''free will'' the theists use, which view humanity as something outside the material world.

With that said,there are certainly grades of free will in a hierarchical society such as ours and some people (yes,the rich) have considerably more responsibility.Of course I do not think that those,the consciously and actively racist are innocent by any means.They should be combatted by word,action and sword wherever necessary and according to the case.Apart from those few jackheads though, there are many more people who are unconciouslly racist-in fact more than those that are anti-racist.People who have propagandized or simply turned so due to their life experiences which led them to believe the blind lies of the ones we said before,lies that only aim to keep them down while their pockets are getting fatter.Heck,if the majority weren't racist we wouldn't be in this situation after all!It's the people who shape their society which in turns shapes them more.No, I can't say we should blame these people, after all we are fighting for them,what we should do is fight ignorance and racism as an idea being stupid to the core.

Of course militant racist and fascist groups such as neo-nazi gangs are an exception to this, their presence is a danger on the streets and therefore violence there is justified as defensive

[Zolken]

Of course militant racist and fascist groups such as neo-nazi gangs are an exception to this, their presence is a danger on the streets and therefore violence there is justified as defensive The term 'racist' should refer ONLY to people such as these.

Of course I do not think that those,the consciously and actively racist are innocent by any means. They should be combatted by word,action and sword wherever necessary and according to the case.Apart from those few jackheads though, there are many more people who are unconciouslly racist-in fact more than those that are anti-racist. Heck,if the majority weren't racist we wouldn't be in this situation after all! It's the people who shape their society which in turns shapes them more.No, I can't say we should blame these people, after all we are fighting for them,what we should do is fight ignorance and racism as an idea being stupid to the core. In a word, we are all conscious of race, every last one of us. However, there's a difference between mere recognition of this fundamental fact regarding racial variations in the human species and actively promoting hatred and violence based solely upon the criteria of race.

[The Essence Of Flame Is The Essence Of Change]

The term 'racist' should refer ONLY to people such as these.
Well I view racism as a multi-graded line of thought which goes like this:

1)Xenophobia:natural and part of all of us through human nature,its the initial fear of anything we do not recognize.Wether we admit it or not we all subconsciously view something new or something different as ''hostile'' in the start, a view which we later either embrace or denounce if we use logic.

2)Soft Hostility/Dislike:One step further,here one starts accepting things that are neither logic nor true about the thing he feels xenophobic about.It's here that stereotypes kick in (e.g beliefs of the type all of group X has the Y property) In this stage the individual will feel uncomfortable and act differently against the group he is racist of but will still not cross some lines and certainly won't advocate violence against them.They are what we call here the ''I'm not racist,but its better if everyone keeps to his own style''

3)Open Hostility/Hatred:Here,the individual has passed any hope of redemption to logic and just thought and openly stands against the group he is against.He will accept things that often have no connection to reality without understanding it and any hope of a logical conversation with proper arguements with that person is lost.He will try and propagandise others in his ''struggle against X'' and the whole subject will start becoming a major future of his character,like an obsession.Still,some of those people will reject ultra-right goverments, seeing his view as correct and natural in contrast to the questionable ways of the Nazi's(This doesn't go for racial racism as much as it goes for other forms of social racism like homophobics)

4)Fascism:The final step of idiocy and hate,the person here brews and believes theories that make his own group or property look like normal,righteous and higher in sharp contrast to the groups he hates which he views as corrupt,atrocities and immoral according to the dogmatic and no-where-near to logic moral code he shapes,proceeding to call for their ''purification'' and their repression by any means necessary.Any signs of mercy and sympathy for them has vanished and he won't hesitate to do anything possible in the fight against them.

Of course,I hate racism's existence from step 2 where the discrimanatory actions start even mildly but you can't really turn against those people, seeing primarily their low share in responsibility about it and their numbers, who unfortunately fill the majority of ours(the human race).We should aim to inform and reform people like these.From step 3 and after though,we have a problem and according to the severity of the situation,action must be taken.

[Bloody Armalite]

as i like to say.

THE REVOLUTION HAS NO COLOUR.