Learning when to argue...and when to stay silent...

[☭World Views]

Okay suppose there is a student at a university inside the United States, the citadel of imperialism.

That student has to take an economics class and history classes taught from a capitalist, americentric point of view.

Is it wise to refute your teachers economic and historical arguments through assignments and class discussions, or just sit quiet and do assignments the way the system wants you to. By accepting capitalism and the USA as the savior of humanity?

Because the history teachers here seem to think that Communism is something it isn't and spit cold war propaganda!

[ComradeOm]

Will refuting "your teachers [sic] economic and historical arguments" earn you marks in your course/exams?

[Communist Theory]

So you are scared to debate with your teachers?

[JimmyJazz]

In a situation where you are the tiny minority, it's better to refute other peoples' dumb right-wing arguments without revealing your own beliefs in any way. That puts them on the defensive instead of you.

[F9]

So you are scared to debate with your teachers?

Refuting your teacher isnt and the best thing to do when you want to have good grades etc, and i know it personally.I admit it that i do need to learn when to argue and when to stay silent, as i always just dont shut up... Its not something that have made to me anything bad though, as i never care of the consequences.I mean i have almost the worst grades in my classes, and in subjects i know i could do fine without "working" much. For example i know how to write essays, and i have been good at this, but when my teacher puts me a subject that i cant write on, because i dont believe to it, there i have a problem.For instance last year i had an essay that "job is essential, and people dont work are anti-social, and lazy".Of course and i didnt support that, and i couldnt write anything to support that for an essay.So i pointed out how stupid the subject is(politely of course:D) and that its not truth, and basically crash teachers own subject.She even told me that the essay wasnt bad, at all, but in the end, my essay didnt even got a grade..:lol:

If you can live with low grades, and usually some long arguments and bad relations with your teachers, i always "prefer" to argue at any time, and not shut up.
Of course thats me, and of course im still in high school..Things could be different in college(though i dont think so :p), so yeah just saying whats my attitude to that.Basically i mostly see it as part of my personality and my general behavior..

[FreeFocus]

You're in college. Debate these fuckers. Even if a professor duped you for grades, what's the worst that will happen? You probably won't get kicked out. Unless you're going to grad school, no one will look at your college grades basically.

[Misanthrope]

No offense, you'll probably lose any debate you enter in regards to historical events.

[FreeFocus]

No offense, you'll probably lose any debate you enter in regards to historical events.

Why would he lose them? Most historical events are portrayed through the lens of American exceptionalism, one of the biggest (and dangerous) myths in all of human history.

[Misanthrope]

Why would he lose them? Most historical events are portrayed through the lens of American exceptionalism, one of the biggest (and dangerous) myths in all of human history.

it's just that this kid seems like he is just getting into the basics of leftism. Simple economic theory ect, semantics ect. I wouldn't expect him to crush a right winged capitalist with a PhD who has probably debated subjects numerous times.

I really could care less, I try to argue with my high school teachers all the time, sometimes they find holes in my argument other times they don't.

[Cymru]

If your writing a history essay mate, It shouldn't matter if you oppose what the lecturer has taught you as long as you can provide evidence for your opinions. If you got the sources to back up what you are saying then they can't mark you down.

[ArrowLance]

If your writing a history essay mate, It shouldn't matter if you oppose what the lecturer has taught you as long as you can provide evidence for your opinions. If you got the sources to back up what you are saying then they can't mark you down.

It seems to me teachers can do pretty much whatever they want.

[Ahmed]

Your university does not encourage debating and disagreeing with your professor? Weird. I do that all the time and they seem to like it. My philosophy papers would come back with counter arguments written in red below each and every paragraph yet the grade would be unaffected and fair. Same with history, literature, political science and economics. I thought the point of college (unless doing something technical like engineering or the sciences) was to argue with the view of developing your own personal world view.

[NecroCommie]

Your university does not encourage debating and disagreeing with your professor? Weird. I do that all the time and they seem to like it. My philosophy papers would come back with counter arguments written in red below each and every paragraph yet the grade would be unaffected and fair. Same with history, literature, political science and economics. I thought the point of college (unless doing something technical like engineering or the sciences) was to argue with the view of developing your own personal world view.
This is the case with our philosophy and history teachers too. However society teachers never take anything anti-cappie with good reception.

[Post-Something]

Debate in history, but economics class is a lost cause tbh.

[Muzk]

Economics class in an american school? What have you been thinking?


... well, teachers have a lot of freedom. They probably only get a plan with things to do over the year, and then influence it with their own beliefs and personality. Not much professionalism in schools here. But arguing about communism when everyone else in your class is just a brainwashed american, I would STFU for the sake of it. You don't want people beating you up, even though this case would be an extremely horrible thing...

[manic expression]

Economics class in an american school? What have you been thinking?

I believe the post's situation was that a student HAD to take an economics class.

That being said, I took economics 101 in my college a few years ago, and to be honest it's not so easy to define. Bourgeois economics are based on assumptions that leftists reject: you will likely find that the Labor Theory of Value is rejected by bourgeois economists, and thus the "consumer" drives everything and not class interests. While this is of course nonsense, there isn't much of a place to debate it, as it's a fundamental assumption of the ideology being taught and is therefore not up for direct questioning.

I went to my professor after a class and talked with him on the issue of Labor Theory of Value for about an hour. He was extremely respectful and appreciative of what I had to say, and needless to say the feeling was mutual. Others may not be so lucky.

If you ask me, just about every subject has anti-socialist underpinnings in some form or another. You may find an exception here and there, but expect to have to stand your ground if you defend revolutionary ideas and movements. YOU have to decide what is appropriate for each class and each professor. There are times when you will be shouted down or given bad grades for disagreement, but ultimately it is your choice whether or not to speak up. There is no shame in either speaking or not speaking, so simply decide what you want and what you think is best. Good luck, comrade.

[mikelepore]

I don't know college economics is "wrong." They teach that if someone invest x dollars at rate of return i, then after t years they will have x(1+i)^t. But that's true, they will. The teacher may remark that the source that created the new wealth is that the capitalist "had a good idea", whereas we say that the workers were exploited, but the amount of profit is still what the formula says. Then they will tell you the procedure for a business to calculate its income taxes by subtracting the deductions from the income. That's true -- that's now it's figured. As for the arithmetic procedures, I don't see where their economics is "wrong". Only their editorial comments that they will throw in occasionally are wrong. When they say that the profit was produced by the capitalist's "idea", just roll your eyes, then forget it, and do the arithmetic problem.

[New Tet]

Debating ideas need not be an exercise in adversarial argument. IOW, you can discover the right or wrong of a proposition without necessarily having to affirm that you are absolutely correct or asserting that an opposing viewpoint is completely mistaken. That's why the dialectical method is valuable.

Also, you should take into account the type of relationship that prevails in a school environment. It is assumed from the outset that the teacher knows something that the student wants to learn and, therefore, the pupil is willing to subordinate herself to the authority of the instructor for the duration of the course.

There are edifying ways in which a student can disagree with his teacher about aspects of the subject matter without challenging their authority or putting in doubt the instructor's knowledge and good faith. IOW, you don't want to damage the teacher/student relationship by undermining his credibility in front of your fellow students.

One way to debate a teacher with a contrasting idea is to present it as someone else's viewpoint: "Yes, professor, I understand. But why does Chomsky say that...?" Of course, for that you'd better be damned well-prepared to produce your "Chomsky" or whatever on the spot! Otherwise, as Comrade Lepore suggests, just do the arithmetic.

[cb9's_unity]

I debated a good amount during high school, I start college tomorrow but I won't have any history or economic classes at least until next semester.

Honestly though you have to know a good deal of history before you can really confidently take down a teacher. When I started getting revolutionary in freshman and sophomore year I struggled because my thoughts were not well sorted out. By senior year I had a much better view of history and when that happened it suddenly became easy to fight against the ignorant nationalist view of history.

It takes a lot of thinking and a lot of study in order to get a really solid opinion down. You also have to keep an open mind and allow your ideas to change or grow.

[LOLseph Stalin]

I would have to say, don't try to debate with high school teachers for all you high school students out there. In high school you're typically marked on how the teacher wants you to do the assignment whether you disagree or not. If you were to write an entire essay about how great the Soviet Union was for a Conservative teacher while you're supposed to be writing about the Cold War that could be troublesome. However, in college I don't see the problem. I think all your prof's opposing views should be challenged unless you absolutely feel you could never win. There's no need to embarrass yourself.

[apawllo]

You definitely have to choose your battles. And when you battle, you have to strike with all of your mental power.

I took a Middle Eastern Politics class during this past winter quarter and my professor was blatantly pro-Israel, so much so that it was nauseating. I had to write an essay on the topic of my choice due at the end of the quarter, and being that he had me grinding my teeth and clenching my fists in anger everyday during his lectures I wrote mine on the conflict. I'd write down every one of his ridiculous comments just so I could refute them in my paper with citation. I ended up with a B in his class, and a C on the paper, although I thought I deserved an A. Haha.

Someone mentioned that high school professors will lower grades if you question them. I think it's sort of human nature though, in a way. It's impossible to be impartial toward a subject which you're passionate about, if only subconsciously.

[Cymru]

You definitely have to choose your battles. And when you battle, you have to strike with all of your mental power.

I took a Middle Eastern Politics class during this past winter quarter and my professor was blatantly pro-Israel, so much so that it was nauseating. I had to write an essay on the topic of my choice due at the end of the quarter, and being that he had me grinding my teeth and clenching my fists in anger everyday during his lectures I wrote mine on the conflict. I'd write down every one of his ridiculous comments just so I could refute them in my paper with citation. I ended up with a B in his class, and a C on the paper, although I thought I deserved an A. Haha.

Someone mentioned that high school professors will lower grades if you question them. I think it's sort of human nature though, in a way. It's impossible to be impartial toward a subject which you're passionate about, if only subconsciously.


Ive got an 'Israel, palestine and the making of the middle east' module in the coming semester. The lecturer is a great Historian ( whos also a major leftist ) but in previous modules he's come across as being 'pro-jew' and I'm worried that he is going to be pro-Israel. If I start the course and it's looking sketchy I'll save myself and switch over to the Poverty module.

[New Tet]

You definitely have to choose your battles. And when you battle, you have to strike with all of your mental power.

I took a Middle Eastern Politics class during this past winter quarter and my professor was blatantly pro-Israel, so much so that it was nauseating. I had to write an essay on the topic of my choice due at the end of the quarter, and being that he had me grinding my teeth and clenching my fists in anger everyday during his lectures I wrote mine on the conflict. I'd write down every one of his ridiculous comments just so I could refute them in my paper with citation. I ended up with a B in his class, and a C on the paper, although I thought I deserved an A. Haha.

Someone mentioned that high school professors will lower grades if you question them. I think it's sort of human nature though, in a way. It's impossible to be impartial toward a subject which you're passionate about, if only subconsciously.

I've had professors who played Devil's advocate so well you'd think they were actually in favor of what they were proposing when in fact the were only stirring up the class in order to make us think about the problem. One professor who taught me about political philosophy presented every view point as if he himself believed them all.

I think that the best teachers are those whose personal opinion on the subject is never entirely apparent; it's the difference between a teacher and an indoctrinator.

[Kamerat]

Last semester i had a economics and leadership class. The theacher was very interested in bashing Soviet Union and its ledership. He managed to say that in the SU the leadership was so arthurian that they only produced shoes with size 37 (euro size, about 9 3/8 inches), because no one dared ask any question. I did not argue with him on that one because i did not think any of my co-students would swallow such bs. Then he claimed Japan after WW2 had the largest industry production increasment the world had ever seen. I corrected him right at ones and some one else agreed with what i said and the theacher had to withdraw his statement. That felt so good.:lol:

As long as the teacher dont know your name, and with 100+ students in the class thats very likley. You can argue with your theacher as much as you want. It feels good and the asshole will not be able to indoctrinate/brainwash so many as he/she likes.

[Drace]

Haha awesome stuff guys. Now to gather the education to be able to do that

[LOLseph Stalin]

I've had professors who played Devil's advocate so well you'd think they were actually in favor of what they were proposing when in fact the were only stirring up the class in order to make us think about the problem. One professor who taught me about political philosophy presented every view point as if he himself believed them all.

I think that the best teachers are those whose personal opinion on the subject is never entirely apparent; it's the difference between a teacher and an indoctrinator.

Devil's Advocate was a favorite of my highschool Law teacher. We got some pretty interesting debates going with him playing Devil's Advocate. There was one about security cameras I found particulary interesting. Of course I was against them and my teacher brought up the classic argument of "why worry when you're doing nothing wrong?" This was one time when I actually gave up debating him since once I got started I knew I couldn't win.

[apawllo]

Ive got an 'Israel, palestine and the making of the middle east' module in the coming semester. The lecturer is a great Historian ( whos also a major leftist ) but in previous modules he's come across as being 'pro-jew' and I'm worried that he is going to be pro-Israel. If I start the course and it's looking sketchy I'll save myself and switch over to the Poverty module.

I'll probably sound preachy here, but I'm going to say it anyway. You're selling yourself short if you let someone else dictate the way you choose to be educated. I've never had a college professor who was openly leftist. Most are "progressives" from what I gather. Point being, you're going to disagree most of the time. It's better to come to terms with that, know what results when people know what you believe in and out of the classroom, but always accomplish what you feel is necessary. Just my two.

[apawllo]

I've had professors who played Devil's advocate so well you'd think they were actually in favor of what they were proposing when in fact the were only stirring up the class in order to make us think about the problem. One professor who taught me about political philosophy presented every view point as if he himself believed them all.

I think that the best teachers are those whose personal opinion on the subject is never entirely apparent; it's the difference between a teacher and an indoctrinator.

There's a lot of truth in that. One particular professor who I had for a course called Struggle for Civil Rights, or something along those lines, taught just like that. As a result, opened up countless debates on race, gender, and sexuality. Quite entertaining listening to a misogynist argue that a woman should be able to be a football commentator, but not a football player because she'll get hurt.