N. Korean Slave Labor in Russian Timber Camp

[Phalanx]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/8221164.stm

I found this shocking. In the article, it states how North Korean workers are regularly killed because of poor conditions and long days working in sub-30C weather. And apparently the company is British owned.

[Skooma Addict]

I'm not really surprised, although I am disgusted. Yet another reason to hate the oppressive North Korean Government.

[Havet]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/8221164.stm

I found this shocking. In the article, it states how North Korean workers are regularly killed because of poor conditions and long days working in sub-30C weather. And apparently the company is British owned.

Why are you restricted, if you don't mind me asking?

[danyboy27]

Why are you restricted, if you don't mind me asking?

anti-arbortion i guess.

[eyedrop]

I'm not really surprised, although I am disgusted. Yet another reason to hate the oppressive North Korean Government.
What about the British company?

Gogol Bordello owns btw.

[danyboy27]

What about the British company?

Gogol Bordello owns btw.

the brittish company found a way to get cheap timber. i dont really think theuy give a rat ass about worker condition and i doubt they would be able to actually do something about it. north korea on the other hand have the power to change the condition.

[RGacky3]

i dont really think theuy give a rat ass about worker condition and i doubt they would be able to actually do something about it.

How about not invest in murderers?

[eyedrop]

the brittish company found a way to get cheap timber. i dont really think theuy give a rat ass about worker condition and i doubt they would be able to actually do something about it. north korea on the other hand have the power to change the condition.
The North Korean state found a way to stay in power, I don't think they give a rats as about workers conditions......

Statesmen who stay in power, outcompete those who doesn't.

It's just intelectual dishonesty if you single out one of them.

[danyboy27]

How about not invest in murderers?

money is money for capitalists.

dont blame them for making a quick buck, blame the dictators who are willing to sacrifice their comrades for that.

[danyboy27]

The North Korean state found a way to stay in power, I don't think they give a rats as about workers conditions......

Statesmen who stay in power, outcompete those who doesn't.

It's just intelectual dishonesty if you single out one of them.

statemen stay in power beccause the people dont get rid of them.

you can blame the brittish governement for allowing that company to operate, but you cant blame the company for doing something perfectly legal.

[eyedrop]

statemen stay in power beccause the people dont get rid of them.

you can blame the brittish governement for allowing that company to operate, but you cant blame the company for doing something perfectly legal.

Bosses stay in power because people don't get rid of them.

As there is perfectly legal in international law (in praxis) to exploit your people.

You can't really blame anyone for doing anything, unless there is a guy standing with a gun forcing them to not do it.

[Skooma Addict]

What about the British company?

Gogol Bordello owns btw.

Yes, the British company shouldn't be working directly with oppressive governments. I wonder if this company could even exist without government support.

[Skooma Addict]

you can blame the brittish governement for allowing that company to operate, but you cant blame the company for doing something perfectly legal.

What if slavery were legal? A slave owner would be partly to blame for the crimes he has committed, even if his actions are considered "legal" by some arbitrary law.

[Demogorgon]

Why are you restricted, if you don't mind me asking?
He made a series of bizarre posts a while ago showing various strange and inconsistent views. He renounced them again so I don't see why he is still restricted.

[Bud Struggle]

Communism could create misery, Capitalism could create misery--but when they get together they can create some really fantastic misery.

[rednordman]

Flipping hell people, you honestly cannot let the British Buisness men off just in the name of money and then lay all the blame at the governments. It is true that governments do have a resposibilty. But for one, NK needs as much money as it can get, or else the country starves to death. Secondary, The kind of power that the rich have in the western world nowadays I actually doubt that there is very much that any government can seriously do. If you dont believe me, just look at the bankers in the UK now. If they do, I swear that its is even considered in law to be a violation of the individual civil liberties (or something like that).

Im not really defending any side here, just think its a little bit strange how this british buisnessman, is, quite frankly, doing buisness with North Korea and totally getting away with it. Shouldnt he be sent to Guantamano bay, for doing buisness with a country the west describes as 'terrorists'? This is why im a little bit sceptical of whether governments really do have any power at all over the rich.

Obviously the least that NK could do is ensure the welfair of their workers, but they do not acually hold any of the cards in this. If they ask for too much (this is interpreted by the buisness), than the buisness could go elsewhere very easy.

[Phalanx]

Flipping hell people, you honestly cannot let the British Buisness men off just in the name of money and then lay all the blame at the governments. It is true that governments do have a resposibilty. But for one, NK needs as much money as it can get, or else the country starves to death. Secondary, The kind of power that the rich have in the western world nowadays I actually doubt that there is very much that any government can seriously do. If you dont believe me, just look at the bankers in the UK now. If they do, I swear that its is even considered in law to be a violation of the individual civil liberties (or something like that).

Im not really defending any side here, just think its a little bit strange how this british buisnessman, is, quite frankly, doing buisness with North Korea and totally getting away with it. Shouldnt he be sent to Guantamano bay, for doing buisness with a country the west describes as 'terrorists'? This is why im a little bit sceptical of whether governments really do have any power at all over the rich.

Obviously the least that NK could do is ensure the welfair of their workers, but they do not acually hold any of the cards in this. If they ask for too much (this is interpreted by the buisness), than the buisness could go elsewhere very easy.

All parties involved are at fault here. The Russian government probably bears the most responsibility, as they're allowing this to happen on their soil. But it's beyond sickening to see a western businessman take advantage of a desperately poor populace to make a quick buck. And on top of that the conditions they allow remind one of the Middle Ages.

Indeed, if NK did disagree with the conditions, there's plenty of local labor to exploit. Let us not forget the conditions of Siberian labor camps: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8206998.stm

Milton Friedman would be proud.

[eyedrop]

All parties involved are at fault here. The Russian government probably bears the most responsibility, as they're allowing this to happen on their soil. But it's beyond sickening to see a western businessman take advantage of a desperately poor populace to make a quick buck. And on top of that the conditions they allow remind one of the Middle Ages.

Milton Friedman would be proud.

Well he wouldn't be a good businessman (woman?) if he didn't exploit the opportunity.

[rednordman]

All parties involved are at fault here. The Russian government probably bears the most responsibility, as they're allowing this to happen on their soil. But it's beyond sickening to see a western businessman take advantage of a desperately poor populace to make a quick buck. And on top of that the conditions they allow remind one of the Middle Ages.

Milton Friedman would be proud.Indeed. Russia has a lot to answer for this, but from what Im hearing nowadays, its a little bit of a richmans playground anyway. If they where to intervine or reject this, it could put off other essential buisness investment in their country also, and low and behold, people will start accusing them of being 'communist' again because they do not give the 'freedom' to the buisnesses to do as they please.

But to repeat what you said, they are ALL at fault.

[danyboy27]

What if slavery were legal? A slave owner would be partly to blame for the crimes he has committed, even if his actions are considered "legal" by some arbitrary law.

if slavery would be legal its would be beccause:

1. at least 67 % of the population actually agree with that

2. the people dont have the balls to threw away those stupid leader or at least influencing them toward another decision.

having a gun pointed at you is not a freaking excuse, the cuban actually did something about it, they fough back.

i dont say the leaders and the corporations are legits and innocents, they been doing pretty revolting stuff, but lets face it without our support or our silent consent they wouldnt be able to do such things.

they do has they please beccause we let them.
at this moment, that the part where you, commited communists are supposed to actually do something about it, informing the people and organising stuff.

and dont look at me, i am not a communist or a capitalist, i just explain you how i see that.

[Skooma Addict]

if slavery would be legal its would be beccause:

1. at least 67 % of the population actually agree with that

2. the people dont have the balls to threw away those stupid leader or at least influencing them toward another decision.

having a gun pointed at you is not a freaking excuse, the cuban actually did something about it, they fough back.

i dont say the leaders and the corporations are legits and innocents, they been doing pretty revolting stuff, but lets face it without our support or our silent consent they wouldnt be able to do such things.

they do has they please beccause we let them.
at this moment, that the part where you, commited communists are supposed to actually do something about it, informing the people and organising stuff.

and dont look at me, i am not a communist or a capitalist, i just explain you how i see that.

But you admit that if slavery were legal, A slave owner would be partly to blame for the crimes he has committed, even if his actions are considered "legal" by some arbitrary law. Correct?

[danyboy27]

But you admit that if slavery were legal, A slave owner would be partly to blame for the crimes he has committed, even if his actions are considered "legal" by some arbitrary law. Correct?

partly, yes. but his verry existence depend of the apathy/support of the avearge joes.

he wouldnt exist in the first place if the avearge joes would actually do something about it.

by letting him operate the people share the responsability of the attrocities he commited somehow.
you dont actually believe that accusing those corporations without doing nothing at all will have an effect, do you?

[Skooma Addict]

partly, yes. but his verry existence depend of the apathy/support of the avearge joes.

Ok, so they are partly to blame. But your right, the slave owner would need support from a large group of people.


he wouldnt exist in the first place if the avearge joes would actually do something about it.

by letting him operate the people share the responsability of the attrocities he committed somehow.
you dont actually believe that accusing those corporations without doing nothing at all will have an effect, do you?

Well, when it comes to corporations making business deals with oppressive governments, average joes usually don't care, or don't know whats going on.

I don't think anyone but the corporation and the Korean government are responsible. Those two entities must be held accountable for what is happening. But accusing a corporation without doing anything else will obviously have no effect. However, that doesn't somehow legitimize unethical actions.

[danyboy27]

Well, when it comes to corporations making business deals with oppressive governments, average joes usually don't care, or don't know whats going on.
.
its about leverage. normal people and workers represent your hope for a more egalitarian and communal society, if you guy can actually beat the corporation at controlling them, you win.

its all fine talking about it on the internet but if there is no concrete action taken i doubt something will change.

there is actually 2 things that can be done in that case, using the electoral system to show your discontent or go to the streets.

[RGacky3]

dont blame them for making a quick buck, blame the dictators who are willing to sacrifice their comrades for that.


As there is perfectly legal in international law (in praxis) to exploit your people.

You can't really blame anyone for doing anything, unless there is a guy standing with a gun forcing them to not do it.

excactly, the dictator is in the same boat as the buisiness man, he's trying to get a job done, he's trying to make a buck (for his country, not his share holders), ultimately its teh system that allows and encourages this that we should be pointing at.

Power corrupts, so sure you can blame the corrupted, but first blame the power.

[danyboy27]

excactly, the dictator is in the same boat as the buisiness man, he's trying to get a job done, he's trying to make a buck (for his country, not his share holders), ultimately its teh system that allows and encourages this that we should be pointing at.

Power corrupts, so sure you can blame the corrupted, but first blame the power.


but how can we blame power? its not something that is alive.

[KC]

"The Koreans work for the government and their communist party, they've got production targets," he said. "If the quota is filled then everything is ok. If it is not fulfilled, well then they've got their Communist Party of North Korea, and everybody gets punished from the managers down to the worker who didn't fulfil the quota."

There is no such thing as the Communist Party of North Korea. There was a Communist Party of Korea (which was active mostly in the South), of which a North Korean Bureau was formed in 1945 but merged with the New People's Party to form the Workers' Party of North Korea in 1946.

[RGacky3]

but how can we blame power? its not something that is alive.

So, your try and dismantle it.

[danyboy27]

So, your try and dismantle it.

i am not really sure we can actually dismantle power, we can bring down power structures but you cant dismantle the power itself.

[Havet]

i am not really sure we can actually dismantle power, we can bring down power structures but you cant dismantle the power itself.

Organization, self-defense and education (because the sanction of power is also ideological and important).

[Bud Struggle]

Organization, self-defense and education (because the sanction of power is also ideological and important).

Don't you think that the sanctioning power is a natural human function? We NEED a leader.

[Robert]

We NEED a leader.

Sigh. Oh, alright, where do I sign?

[Bud Struggle]

Sigh. Oh, alright, where do I sign?

Just be "Great" again! :lol:

Seriously, if Communists do have a Revolution and take control--you'd be the best choice for a leader.

[RGacky3]

Don't you think that the sanctioning power is a natural human function? We NEED a leader.

Why?

[eyedrop]

Don't you think that the sanctioning power is a natural human function? We NEED a leader.Aren't the question rather; do we have adequate organisatorial methods that work without a leader, and if so is it desirable? I fail to see what natural human function has to do with anything? Most bosses aren't sanctioned by their subjects anyway, plenty of them are believed to just be incompetent fools. Look at some Dilbert comics who should be decently representative of mainstream thoughts.
http://www.revleft.com/vb/%3Ca%20href=%22http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2009-08-29/%22%20title=%22Dilbert.com%22%3E%3Cimg%20src=%22ht tp://dilbert.com/dyn/str_strip/000000000/00000000/0000000/000000/60000/5000/600/65678/65678.strip.gif%22%20border=%220%22%20alt=%22Dilbe rt.com%22%20/%3E%3C/a%3Ehttp://www.dilbert.com/dyn/str_strip/000000000/00000000/0000000/000000/60000/5000/600/65678/65678.strip.gif
http://www.dilbert.com/strips/comic/2009-08-29/

[Havet]

Don't you think that the sanctioning power is a natural human function? We NEED a leader.

You can choose whatever you want. I don't see why you should impose your leader on me. Notice I don't mean you particularly.

[Hiero]

These documentories always make laugh, and people's reactions always make me laugh.

Every little object is a personfication of Kim Jong Il's dictatorship and "Stalinist" rule. Even the way the North Koreans speak, laugh or move the film maker interprets as some action of either secretive involvment with the DPRk or a expression of their enslavement to DPRK.

I have only flipped through the film, but it looks crap. Really you lack any understanding of 3rd world conditions if you think this is a specific case. Actually it looks like their standard of living is about normal for the 3rd world. And $200 a month is about $6.60 a day, which if we are talking about us dollars, is infact 5.60 above the abosulate poverty line.

There is nothing reall special going on here. The only point of interest is it can be connected to the DPRK.

Anyway another item of orientalism, it's like saying "look at what these stupid orients do to themselves when left to their own devices".