Socialist groups unite for once!

[The Idler]

I just read International Socialist Group (UK) has merged with Socialist Resistance (UK).

[Q]

I just read International Socialist Group (UK) has merged with Socialist Resistance (UK).
Link or it didn't happen.

[redasheville]

Just look at the SR website. SR is now the British section of the FI. As an foreign observer, this seems to me like a long time coming. ISG folks have always been involved with SR from the beginning, and it probably made sense that there just be a single organization.

[Q]

ISG link (http://isg-fi.org.uk/spip.php?rubrique8) and SR link (http://socialistresistance.org/) for those that don't know these sites out of hand.

Do these groups have any size to write home about?

[Revy]

awesomeness.
we need more mergers.:D

[RotStern]

Finally its about time somebody pulled up their damn red socks xD

[pastradamus]

Cant remember the last time I've heard of either of them.

[Q]

Cant remember the last time I've heard of either of them.
I suspect the merger is just one of those combining two tiny sects into one slightly larger sect. Not really Earthshocking indeed.

[Sam_b]

Socialist Resistance was set up as a camapigning/united front group by members and supporters of the ISG, as far as I recall. Sure enough the group started organising like a full blown party so this is merely tieing up loose ends to what was already the case. They aren't really uniting as the majority of Socialist Resistance were ISG members anyway. Nothing 'awesome' about some ecosocialist nutcases though, which they are.

[bellyscratch]

Socialist Resistance was set up as a camapigning/united front group by members and supporters of the ISG, as far as I recall. Sure enough the group started organising like a full blown party so this is merely tieing up loose ends to what was already the case. They aren't really uniting as the majority of Socialist Resistance were ISG members anyway.

Yeh, this is basically it. I think there were some ex-SWP that joined them too, who were involved with RESPECT, as SR are still involved with RESPECT. Still, they are quite small, and only active in a handful of places in the country.

I'd like you to expand on this though.

Nothing 'awesome' about some ecosocialist nutcases though, which they are.

I've read some of their publications and I quite like a lot of what they say, in comparison to the other Trot/Leninist groups. But I'm just an 'ecosocialist nutcase' I suppose :rolleyes:

[Revy]

Socialist Resistance was set up as a camapigning/united front group by members and supporters of the ISG, as far as I recall. Sure enough the group started organising like a full blown party so this is merely tieing up loose ends to what was already the case. They aren't really uniting as the majority of Socialist Resistance were ISG members anyway. Nothing 'awesome' about some ecosocialist nutcases though, which they are.

Ecosocialist nutcases?
Wow.
:rolleyes:

[OneNamedNameLess]

Sam_b, do you mean the group in question are eco socialist nutcases or eco socialists are nutters in general? If you state the latter, I see a split thread approaching :D

[Sam_b]

I've read some of their publications and I quite like a lot of what they say, in comparison to the other Trot/Leninist groups. But I'm just an 'ecosocialist nutcase' I suppose

I see their calls for 'international air travel rationing' as ridiculous, I think their idea that the world is currently as tipping point as being delusional and scaremongering, and above all in the current economic crisis I don't see their line as being the most important thing right now. They explicitly say themselves that this is 'the most urgent issue facing the working class'. I think that is rubbish.

The idea of ecosocialism tends to prioritise this over other concerns of the working class, which can often be dangerous.

[bellyscratch]

I see their calls for 'international air travel rationing' as ridiculous, I think their idea that the world is currently as tipping point as being delusional and scaremongering, and above all in the current economic crisis I don't see their line as being the most important thing right now. They explicitly say themselves that this is 'the most urgent issue facing the working class'. I think that is rubbish.

The idea of ecosocialism tends to prioritise this over other concerns of the working class, which can often be dangerous.

I think the thing about air travel is not the best, but I know from talking to people within the group that there is not consensus in the group about certain areas. There are people within the group, who are more environmentalist than socialist, but also vice-versa.

I don't think many people who consider themselves ecosocialist prioritise environmental issues over the working class, but now see it as a vital aspect of the working class struggle. We all know that many environmental policies that the government make are going to be at the expense of the poorest people, not just in this country, but around the world. So we if we are going to have any sort of socialist repsonse to this, we need to show that it is not necessary to make the poorest people suffer, but also give our own answers to the situation.

I see all the other left parties only doing this in seemingly opportunistic ways, such as the Vestas struggle. Otherwise environmtal issues are largley ignored. Hopefully, I'm wrong about the opportunism and socialist parties will incorporate environmental issues more into their politics now. But when I was in the SWP there was a little bit of environmental rhetoric when criticising the capitalist system, but no action to back any of it up and not many solutions to it really, apart from things would somehow magically get better in a socialist society.

Even if you don't agree with me entirely, surely its better to have a growing ecosocialist movement, than and ecocapitliast one, such as the Green Party?

[LeninKobaMao]

I would like to see some Marxist-Leninists and Trotskyists unite. That would be a surprise. :bored:

[The Ungovernable Farce]

I see their calls for 'international air travel rationing' as ridiculous, I think their idea that the world is currently as tipping point as being delusional and scaremongering
Do you have any scientific evidence to back up your claim that this is delusional scaremongering, or is this just based on the fact that you really really don't want the world to be at a tipping point?

and above all in the current economic crisis I don't see their line as being the most important thing right now. They explicitly say themselves that this is 'the most urgent issue facing the working class'. I think that is rubbish.

The idea of ecosocialism tends to prioritise this over other concerns of the working class, which can often be dangerous.
Material conditions come first, everything else follows. If we don't preserve the material ecological conditions that make civilisation possible, then we lose everything else.

[Q]

On another forum I made a few posts on the issue of "green socialism". I'll reproduce them here:


You have a point in that many communist parties have degenerated to rightwing, populist and opportunist parties. The eurocommunists come to mind. The Dutch CPN also degenerated in the 1980's with a complete focus on contemporary struggles, like green issues, but also feminist stuggles. In the late 1980's the dissolved themselves into "GreenLeft", a party which nowadays fully supports neoliberal policies, as long as it is "green"...

Now, don't get me wrong, I fully support all kinds of struggle. Climate change and environmental pollution is a real issue. The struggle for the equality of women in society is a real issue. Racism is a real issue. Etcetera. These are all issues that are faced by the working class and divide it. Communists should therefore take up on these issues, explain that capitalism as a form of society is at the heart of all these social problems and provide a collectivist answer, based on the common denominator that binds us all within society, in other words: we should fight for these issues on a class basis and with independent class politics in mind.

Where things went wrong with the "official communist" parties, I think, is the fact that most of these adhered to the "two stage" theory. This theory basically states that we first have to fight for democratic rights under capitalism and then, at some point in the undetermined future, fight for socialism. This theory has led to disastrous results in practically all occasions it was practised.

This is a very mechanical way of dealing with historical tasks. The bourgeoisie, once able to carry out the progressive tasks of abolishing feudalism by introducing capitalism, is no longer able to do exactly that. This is because of the fact we live in an imperialist world these days. As a consequence, there is no such thing as "national liberation" or "national democracy" or similar tasks. The fight for democracy can only be carried out by the consistently revolutionary class capitalism has created: the working class.

But the working class will not stop at a perfect capitalist democratic utopia of course. Once in motion, it will and must strive for power over society and thusly ending capitalism in one go. To achieve these things working class independence, working class internationalism and working class democracy are vital principles in ensuring working class self-emancipation and thusly completing the historic tasks of communism.



Green politics is class politics in a very naked way. The fact that the Greens fail to come up with a real, workable solution to the climate change problem and environmental pollution, besides to "consume less" or - even more dramatic - go back to a more primitive pre-industrial society, has everything to do with their failure to recognise the cause of the problem: capitalism. A profit driven system will not look at the destruction it causes, whether that be human, industrial, cultural, environmental or other types of destruction. As long as it makes a profit out of it.

As a consequence to look for green answers within capitalism is illusory. The many Green parties everywhere on the globe are a testament to that. Everywhere these parties turn out to be reactionary anti-working class, defending neoliberal politics, etc. As long as it helps in their aim in making the system "green", they don't care who pays the price, and that's of course us. And yet, the big industrial conglomerates are never targeted and continue to be the real polluters of society.

So yes, there is a real need for an independent working class position on the issue of the environment. We cannot trust on the ruling class or its state to do come up with solutions, as they are the cause of all the troubles in the first place.

Earth can't wait indeed, we need a revolution now!

I'm sorry if they're somewhat out of context. I hope it helps anyway.

[Sam_b]

I see all the other left parties only doing this in seemingly opportunistic ways, such as the Vestas struggle. Otherwise environmtal issues are largley ignored. Hopefully, I'm wrong about the opportunism and socialist parties will incorporate environmental issues more into their politics now. But when I was in the SWP there was a little bit of environmental rhetoric when criticising the capitalist system, but no action to back any of it up and not many solutions to it really, apart from things would somehow magically get better in a socialist society.

Even if you don't agree with me entirely, surely its better to have a growing ecosocialist movement, than and ecocapitliast one, such as the Green Party?

I don't think thats true, and its certainly not a case of lesser evil politics ('oh well, at least they aren't the greens.....'). How has the struggle to save jobs at Vestas, in my view the most important thing here, been opportunist in any way whatsoever? Similarly, what about the SWP's poster and petition campaign on the environment, coupled with book realeases and meetings?


Do you have any scientific evidence to back up your claim that this is delusional scaremongering, or is this just based on the fact that you really really don't want the world to be at a tipping point?


I personally think that climate chaos becoming out of control in the next few decades is scaremongering yes, and this view is supported by some of our most important scientists: such as Dr Freeman Dyson and Richard Lindzen.

[bellyscratch]

I don't think thats true, and its certainly not a case of lesser evil politics ('oh well, at least they aren't the greens.....'). How has the struggle to save jobs at Vestas, in my view the most important thing here, been opportunist in any way whatsoever? Similarly, what about the SWP's poster and petition campaign on the environment, coupled with book realeases and meetings?

I'm coming from my own personal experience in the north east of England, where the SWP has never been bothered about anything with the environment whatsoever. Then all of a sudden as the Vestas stuff happens they're pushing the Campaign Against Climate Change stuff. Where as there has been loads of environmental campaigners around Newcastle, which they have totally ignored and never got involved with. Is this because they knew that they couldn't control it? I'll leave that for other people to decide...

Actually, I went to a meeting on 'Marx and Ecology' at Marxism this year, and there were loads of people from the SWP speaking saying how useless the left were when it came to environmental issues.

[Sam_b]

Then all of a sudden as the Vestas stuff happens they're pushing the Campaign Against Climate Change stuff.

We've been pushing CACC events and going on their marches for years, I remember doing since at least 2005. Hell, the SW Platform proposed motions to SSP conference calling for afiliations.

[Revy]

Q, I think if environmentalists believed in a pre-industrial primitive society, you wouldn't see the demands for wind turbines and solar panels.

I agree that environmentalism without socialism is lacking a central component, and ignores the huge role capitalism plays in environmental destruction.

[bellyscratch]

We've been pushing CACC events and going on their marches for years, I remember doing since at least 2005. Hell, the SW Platform proposed motions to SSP conference calling for afiliations.

Like I said...

I'm coming from my own personal experience in the north east of England, where the SWP has never been bothered about anything with the environment whatsoever.

[Sam_b]

The point is in your own personal experience as a non-SWP member.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

The point is in your own personal experience as a non-SWP member.
So you're saying that the SWP's been doing loads of brilliant stuff around climate change, it's just that all their activism is unfortunately invisible to anyone who's not in the party?

[bellyscratch]

The point is in your own personal experience as a non-SWP member.
I used to be in the SWP...

[nuisance]

They done right well at Climate Camp. :laugh: