Sexual Independence of Women

[La Comédie Noire]

I was discussing the topics of Gender Roles with a friend on aim last night and when I merely suggested woman should be able to sleep with whom ever they want without cultural repercussions, she laid this doozy on me:


[They can't] because they usually let it get out of hand and can't keep their legs shut for more than a day

I was taken a back, to say the least, not only was it a horribly insulting argument, but it was from an otherwise intelligent woman.

Basically it's saying "woman are children, who need to be looked after" which wouldn't phase me for a second if it had come from a man, having heard it all before, but it was from a woman.

Have any of you run into this before and if so what have you done about it?

[Comrade Akai]

Sexual promiscuity causes a lot of problems. Not only does it contribute to overpopulation but it can also spread diseases which often lead to death.

Additionally, sometimes you get both. Lots of children (especially in Africa) are born with HIV, because their parents were promiscuous. What did the child do wrong? Why does the child have to have AIDS?

Not to mention fathers often will not be there for their kids. The children are always left behind.

[khad]

Basically it's saying "woman are children, who need to be looked after" which wouldn't phase me for a second if it had come from a man, having heard it all before, but it was from a woman.

Have any of you run into this before and if so what have you done about it?
I dunno, maybe because she's heard far too many men to use that line about sexual liberation as an excuse to get into her pants? Just like chauvinistic pricks who talk polyamory to justify keeping a "harem." From what you posted, she seemed pretty snappy like she was annoyed with you.

[communard resolution]

Haha! I think that's they refer to when they say "the colonised adopting the language of the coloniser".

[communard resolution]

I dunno, maybe because she's heard far too many men to use that line about sexual liberation as an excuse to get into her pants? Just like chauvinistic pricks who talk polyamory to justify keeping a "harem." From what you posted, she seemed pretty snappy like she was annoyed with you.

Sorry khad, but that's doesn't make sense. The talk is about womens' sexual independence, and the woman in question claims that it's wrong and that women must be kept on a short leash. This is not about male promiscuity (which, like female promiscuity, is of course perfectly fine).

[communard resolution]

Sexual promiscuity causes a lot of problems. Not only does it contribute to overpopulation but it can also spread diseases which often lead to death.

Should have used a condom, huh?

[khad]

Sorry khad, but that's doesn't make sense. The talk is about womens' sexual independence, and the woman in question claims that it's wrong and that women must be kept on a short leash. This is not about male promiscuity (which, like female promiscuity, is of course perfectly fine).
Did she have a double standard regarding male promiscuity? That is not apparent in what she said. I read the whole thing as a "blow off" statement thrown when one doesn't want to deal with someone.

[Comrade Akai]

Should have used a condom, huh?
Condoms often break. Additionally, many forget to use them. Some can't afford them. Still others simply don't care for them.

[La Comédie Noire]

Sexual promiscuity causes a lot of problems. Not only does it contribute to overpopulation but it can also spread diseases which often lead to death.

Additionally, sometimes you get both. Lots of children (especially in Africa) are born with HIV, because their parents were promiscuous. What did the child do wrong? Why does the child have to have AIDS?

Not to mention fathers often will not be there for their kids. The children are always left behind.

I've sat through health class once in my life already!

but aren't these problems that can be combated with technology? Most STDs today can be treated, or prevented entirely. As for babies if we made abortion clinics and contraceptives free and wide spread would we have to worry about over population?

I think the problem right now is that no one wants to talk seriously about things such as abortion or contraceptives, so things like abortion clinics are heavily underfunded and expensive.

The bottom line is people seem to be having promiscuous sex whether or not society condones it, so wouldn't it be better to accept this and try to make it as safe as possible?



I dunno, maybe because she's heard far too many men to use that line about sexual liberation as an excuse to get into her pants? Just like chauvinistic pricks who talk polyamory to justify keeping a "harem."

I don't think the sexual independence of women is a pick up line, at least I've never heard it.

[Comrade Akai]

I've sat through health class once in my life already!

but aren't these problems that can be combated with technology? Most STDs today can be treated, or prevented entirely. As for babies if we made abortion clinics and contraceptives free and wide spread would we have to worry about over population?

I think the problem right now is that no one wants to talk seriously about things such as abortion or contraceptives, so things like abortion clinics are heavily underfunded and expensive.

The bottom line is people seem to be having promiscuous sex whether or not society condones it, so wouldn't it be better to accept this and try to make it as safe as possible?



I don't think the sexual independence of women is a pick up line, at least I've never heard it.
Technology can combat it, but whether or not people choose to combat it (or can due to how much money they have) is another affair.

And again, what about the children?

[khad]

I don't think the sexual independence of women is a pick up line, at least I've never heard it.
That's the whole concept behind cultural phenomena like girls gone wild, which has been rightly bashed by feminists as horribly misogynistic. For some unscrupulous men, sexual liberation implies "liberated" to please them.

You're going to have to provide more context about your conversation with this woman.

[communard resolution]

Condoms often break. Additionally, many forget to use them. Some can't afford them. Still others simply don't care for them.

Shall we stop using cars because they often crash?

[Comrade Akai]

Shall we stop using cars because they often crash?
That actually sounds like a really good idea. I prefer horses, myself. Or bicycles.

[communard resolution]

I don't think the sexual independence of women is a pick up line, at least I've never heard it.

The way I understand it, sexual independence means the right to say yes without being called a slut and the right to say no without being called a prude.

[communard resolution]

That actually sounds like a really good idea. I prefer horses, myself. Or bicycles.

That's nice for you. End of conversation.

[Mujer Libre]

I dunno, maybe because she's heard far too many men to use that line about sexual liberation as an excuse to get into her pants? Just like chauvinistic pricks who talk polyamory to justify keeping a "harem." From what you posted, she seemed pretty snappy like she was annoyed with you.
Sadly, this does happen, and may well explain her attitude.

There are leftist men out there who use 'progressive' sexual politics to justify their own selfish, sexist behaviour.

Telling a woman ""Stop being so conservative... Let me explore my sexuality..." shouldnt be a veiled message saying "YOUR pride and dignity doesn't matter as much as my libido."

That said- of course, of course, of course I support sex not being viewed as dirty and sinful, but this is consensual sex, where people don't get hurt and the sexist bullshit is left at the door.

[brigadista]

I was discussing the topics of Gender Roles with a friend on aim last night and when I merely suggested woman should be able to sleep with whom ever they want without cultural repercussions, she laid this doozy on me:



I was taken a back, to say the least, not only was it a horribly insulting argument, but it was from an otherwise intelligent woman.

Basically it's saying "woman are children, who need to be looked after" which wouldn't phase me for a second if it had come from a man, having heard it all before, but it was from a woman.

Have any of you run into this before and if so what have you done about it?





her quote sounds heavily ironic to me

[The Ungovernable Farce]

I was discussing the topics of Gender Roles with a friend on aim last night and when I merely suggested woman should be able to sleep with whom ever they want without cultural repercussions, she laid this doozy on me:



I was taken a back, to say the least, not only was it a horribly insulting argument, but it was from an otherwise intelligent woman

And she never really explained exactly why it was a bad thing. Saying that women's sexual liberation is bad because women "can't keep their legs shut for more than a day" is only an argument if you already accept the idea that women being sexually promiscuous is a bad thing in itself. If you view promiscuity as morally neutral, then that really isn't a criticism.

[communard resolution]

There are leftist men out there who use 'progressive' sexual politics to justify their own selfish, sexist behaviour.


What kind of behaviour do you mean by that?

[Mujer Libre]

What kind of behaviour do you mean by that?

The kind of stuff people have mentioned above. Feeling entitled to get in women's pants because hey, liberated women should be up for it?

Also feeling entitled to have a harem of women, to expect that women would put up with that stuff whether that was what they signed up for or not.

Based on experiences and conversations with other leftist women- it happens. Commonly.

[La Comédie Noire]

Technology can combat it, but whether or not people choose to combat it (or can due to how much money they have) is another affair.

And again, what about the children?

It is a shame, a poor woman who has the misfortune of getting pregnant won't be able to afford an abortion, but that's what happens when you live in a society that refuses to have a serious discourse about sex.

Instead of admitting that people will have sex and sometimes mistakes will be made we try to pin the blame on the woman. "So and so got pregnant, because she's a slut!" "It's her fault!"

It's like saying a coal miner shouldn't be covered for lung cancer because he chose to be in the mine.



That's the whole concept behind cultural phenomena like girls gone wild, which has been rightly bashed by feminists as horribly misogynistic. For some unscrupulous men, sexual liberation implies "liberated" to please them.

You're going to have to provide more context about your conversation with this woman.

Well from what I understand those videos involve woman who are usually sauced out of their minds which is a far cry from:


...the right to say yes without being called a slut and the right to say no without being called a prude.


Did she have a double standard regarding male promiscuity? That is not apparent in what she said. I read the whole thing as a "blow off" statement thrown when one doesn't want to deal with someone.

What do you mean by "blow off statement"?

She said: like its intimacy for women and sex for men.

I said: I think the sexes like both sex and intimacy

She said: well as far as i know its true. For a while at ***** I went to real talks which was hosted by the head of the funeral science department and one of the talks was on male and female sexuality. What he said really made sense.

I said: I think we try to find a difference between men and woman sexuality because we live in a patriarchal society where those differences are socialized into us. Why do you think woman who admittedly enjoy sex are met with contempt?

To which she replied: because they usually let it get out of hand and can't keep their legs shut for more than a day.

So there it is, woman are supposed to enjoy emotional intimacy, while men are supposed to enjoy sex, if a woman were to enjoy sex she wouldn't be able to keep her legs shut for more than one day.

[F9]

I dont know if she was sarcastic, she could be, but i know from what i see down here, that those things not only you can hear them from females too, but most females are like this, and if few wont accept it they get labeled by everyone, "whores, sluts" etc:rolleyes::rolleyes: State brainwashing and patriarchy has really made the truly deeply conservative society of cyprus to accept anything the are been told. I cant describe and tell how many times i heard from females that they are "lower" than males( how many times i heard it from males, pshh that every day talking:rolleyes:) they are incapable, the only thing i see them to try exceel is on school, which fortunately it has been overpassed that males=smart, females=stupid... So yeah down here such things are common case, seen sexist females etc..

I dont take cyprus as an example never though, as situation have made, and as it is a small society, smaller than most big citys, conservatism and male dominance has really been spread eveywhere.School teaches it, familys cultivate it, and unfortunately most people accept the brainwash.

[khad]

The kind of stuff people have mentioned above. Feeling entitled to get in women's pants because hey, liberated women should be up for it?

Also feeling entitled to have a harem of women, to expect that women would put up with that stuff whether that was what they signed up for or not.

Based on my experiences, and conversations with other leftist women- it happens. Commonly.
Finally, someone calls it as it is.


She said:well as far as i know its true. For a while at ***** I went to real talks which was hosted by the head of the funeral science department and one of the talks was on male and female sexuality. What he said really made sense.
Comrade Floyd, what bizarre commentary. Do you have any idea what what was said at the funeral science talk?

[communard resolution]

The kind of stuff people have mentioned above. Feeling entitled to get in women's pants because hey, liberated women should be up for it?


Yes, I agree - this was to a huge extent the hippie 'sexual liberation' of the 60s, the point of which was to faciliate men's access to more women. That's why my definition of true sexual independence necessarily includes the right to say no as well as the right to say yes at any time.



Also feeling entitled to have a harem of women, to expect that women would put up with that stuff whether that was what they signed up for or not.No one is entitled to anything, but I feel that sexual exclusiveness is a separate issue and, though the violation of trust can be hurtful to one's partner, has nothing to do with sexism. People tend to confuse these two areas.

Sexism enters the picture when women are judged differently for certain acts than men would be for the same acts.

[bromide]

Sexual promiscuity causes a lot of problems. Not only does it contribute to overpopulation but it can also spread diseases which often lead to death.

Additionally, sometimes you get both. Lots of children (especially in Africa) are born with HIV, because their parents were promiscuous. What did the child do wrong? Why does the child have to have AIDS?

If you've ever studied HIV programmes in Africa or been to the continent, you'll see posters everywhere that say "Abstain, Be Faithful, Use Condoms". The ABC programme as it's called in short is embedded in a misguided, racist stereotype that's been floating around since the earliest days of colonialism, this is that all Africans are hypersexual. That, of course, must be why so many Africans have HIV, right? Because everyone, men and women, are super-promiscuous and will sleep with anyone that comes along? Wrong. That's racist bullshit. In Uganda for example, 16% of women in a 2007 study by UNAIDS have had extramarital sex, whereas that statistic is 36% for men. Statistics from the United States are about on par (by some estimates higher), and yet the US isn't suffering from an HIV pandemic.

So why is HIV such an insidious pandemic in Africa?

1. Poverty. People can't afford to get diagnosed, let alone treated. SAPS from World Bank and the IMF have completely decimated any sort of public healthcare systems that were in place beforehand or could have been built, so the disease spreads like wildfire because most people don't know until it's too late, and even if they do know, what are they going to do about it? Anti-retroviral meds are prohibitively expensive. So, by the way, are condoms. If you're living off of a dollar a day, what are you going to buy, food or an $8 pack of condoms? Also in terms of prostitution, women have gone on record saying that they'd rather die from AIDS next year than starve today. I can't stress how much poverty has fueled this pandemic.

2. Misogyny. This one spans everything from wife inheritance to the refusal to use condoms as it's considered a man's "right" to have sex with his wife on his terms. In many areas, rape within marriage is considered perfectly acceptable and in fact not even defined as rape at all. In that vein, a study in Zimbabwe showed that younger women are more likely to put up with much higher levels of marital violence than older women, most likely due to increases in poverty and having small children to care for. And of course rough sex equals vaginal tearing which equals increased susceptibility to HIV. A vast majority of HIV positive African women, in fact, acquire the disease within the bounds of marriage for any combination of these reasons. And of course, the ABC programmes pushed by the West which don't take any of this into account aren't helping things at all, just furthering stereotypes of hypersexuality and promiscuity.

So please, don't presume that Africans all have HIV because they're particularly promiscuous. They aren't more promiscuous than in the West.

[RotStern]

Sex is generally frowned upon by society.
Which is stupid because it is as natural as breathing.
Yet it is regarded as dirty.
I think a good book to read on the consequences of sexual oppression would be the Spring Awakening.
It is initially a play but I bought the script and it was great.

[Comrade Akai]

If you've ever studied HIV programmes in Africa or been to the continent, you'll see posters everywhere that say "Abstain, Be Faithful, Use Condoms". The ABC programme as it's called in short is embedded in a misguided, racist stereotype that's been floating around since the earliest days of colonialism, this is that all Africans are hypersexual. That, of course, must be why so many Africans have HIV, right? Because everyone, men and women, are super-promiscuous and will sleep with anyone that comes along? Wrong. That's racist bullshit. In Uganda for example, 16% of women in a 2007 study by UNAIDS have had extramarital sex, whereas that statistic is 36% for men. Statistics from the United States are about on par (by some estimates higher), and yet the US isn't suffering from an HIV pandemic.

So why is HIV such an insidious pandemic in Africa?

1. Poverty. People can't afford to get diagnosed, let alone treated. SAPS from World Bank and the IMF have completely decimated any sort of public healthcare systems that were in place beforehand or could have been built, so the disease spreads like wildfire because most people don't know until it's too late, and even if they do know, what are they going to do about it? Anti-retroviral meds are prohibitively expensive. So, by the way, are condoms. If you're living off of a dollar a day, what are you going to buy, food or an $8 pack of condoms? Also in terms of prostitution, women have gone on record saying that they'd rather die from AIDS next year than starve today. I can't stress how much poverty has fueled this pandemic.

2. Misogyny. This one spans everything from wife inheritance to the refusal to use condoms as it's considered a man's "right" to have sex with his wife on his terms. In many areas, rape within marriage is considered perfectly acceptable and in fact not even defined as rape at all. In that vein, a study in Zimbabwe showed that younger women are more likely to put up with much higher levels of marital violence than older women, most likely due to increases in poverty and having small children to care for. And of course rough sex equals vaginal tearing which equals increased susceptibility to HIV. A vast majority of HIV positive African women, in fact, acquire the disease within the bounds of marriage for any combination of these reasons. And of course, the ABC programmes pushed by the West which don't take any of this into account aren't helping things at all, just furthering stereotypes of hypersexuality and promiscuity.

So please, don't presume that Africans all have HIV because they're particularly promiscuous. They aren't more promiscuous than in the West.
Please don't misunderstand me, I never thought race was the reason for the abundance of HIV/AIDS in Africa. I myself am from Africa.

In fact, you've explained in excellent detail the reasons why, and thanks for that.

[bromide]

I didn't think you were being racist, but that you seemed to be arguing that promiscuity was the main reason for the spread of HIV. It seems to be that even within Africa, that is the common belief on it (hence why officials will actually change the cause of death on certificates in some cases to not defame the deceased, or why men will accuse their wives of promiscuity when they try to negotiate condom use). I think that it comes from exposure to Western misinformation through anti-HIV campaigns which are indeed racist, hence the orientation towards abstinence and fidelity. Because of course, you won't see USAID-funded campaigns saying "HIV is spreading so rapidly due to neo-colonial exploitation."

[Comrade Akai]

I didn't think you were being racist, but that you seemed to be arguing that promiscuity was the main reason for the spread of HIV. It seems to be that even within Africa, that is the common belief on it (hence why officials will actually change the cause of death on certificates in some cases to not defame the deceased, or why men will accuse their wives of promiscuity when they try to negotiate condom use). I think that it comes from exposure to Western misinformation through anti-HIV campaigns which are indeed racist, hence the orientation towards abstinence and fidelity. Because of course, you won't see USAID-funded campaigns saying "HIV is spreading so rapidly due to neo-colonial exploitation."
While I am fairly certain that promiscuity is a factor (as it would be anywhere), it is no doubt but one of many, such as the facts you have provided.

[ev]

Comrade Floyd: I've been meaning to ask, is your font like that because you type what you want to say in a word processing application and then copy and paste it to your post?

Also, Comrade Akai: You've got to be trolling - I can't take what you've said in this post seriously..

Onto the question..

Women should be able to have sex with whom they want, when they want. Society and it's cultural traditions and taboo should not deny women of their liberties - as leftists we should encourage sexual liberation and equality for both men and women. - or at least that is my view..

To the OP:

You suggested woman should be able to sleep with whom ever they want without cultural repercussions

She said: "[They can't] because they usually let it get out of hand and can't keep their legs shut for more than a day"

Why didn't you just say something like "Even if that is true, why is that a problem?"

She seems to have an immature view on sex.. :)

Side note:

Please don't derail this thread with Africa, Sexually Transmitted Diseases, and promiscuity as it's unrelated to the Sexual Independence of Women.

- I think it would be great if we had more females contributing to this thread.

[Comrade Akai]

Also, Comrade Akai: You've got to be trolling - I can't take what you've said in this post seriously..



I am indeed not trolling.

[Radical]

I was discussing the topics of Gender Roles with a friend on aim last night and when I merely suggested woman should be able to sleep with whom ever they want without cultural repercussions, she laid this doozy on me:



I was taken a back, to say the least, not only was it a horribly insulting argument, but it was from an otherwise intelligent woman.

Basically it's saying "woman are children, who need to be looked after" which wouldn't phase me for a second if it had come from a man, having heard it all before, but it was from a woman.

Have any of you run into this before and if so what have you done about it?




No doubt the women was old and past her sell-by-date?

I often have these sort of arguments with older ladies. I remence on the last time I debated a women about women fighting along side men on the frontline. My argument was obviously that it is sexist for women not being allowed to. She responded with "Women cant fight on the front line because they can be raped and have babies".