french workers threaten to drop poison in the seine river if demand not met

[danyboy27]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/aug/20/france-transport-river-seine-pollution

found that topic in worker struggle, just wanted to share it with the other OIer.

Personally i think its an horrible way to blackmail the bosses, and its horrible for the ecosystem.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

sounds to me like a great way to blackmail the bosses
also sounds like escalating class tension:)

[danyboy27]

sounds to me like a great way to blackmail the bosses
also sounds like escalating class tension:)

i guess you dont like salmon then.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

what the fuck is wrong with you?
what the fuck does that have anything to do with it?
I wouldn't eat salmon from Europe anyway
My concern for the health of the people who could be affected by this would have nothing to do with my like or dislike of motherfucking salmon, you thick fucking imbecile

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I find the idea using the environment as a bargaining chip distasteful as well as being distressingly close to terrorism - it's not the bosses who are going to be affected by the dumping of chemicals, but those who make their living off the river in some manner.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Oh cut the "OMG its TEROORISM" crap anything that uses intimidation is terrorism and if actions like this teroize the boses into treating workers better for fear out of the potential consequences then good.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Oh cut the "OMG its TEROORISM" crap anything that uses intimidation is terrorism and if actions like this teroize the boses into treating workers better for fear out of the potential consequences then good.

I said it was "distressingly close" to terrorism, not an actual instance of such. If the bosses were ruthless enough they could just let them go ahead and do it before having them arrested for deliberately polluting the environment, which I'm sure is illegal in France. And then they would be in the merde in more ways than one, wouldn't they?

[Bud Struggle]

I find the idea using the environment as a bargaining chip distasteful as well as being distressingly close to terrorism - it's not the bosses who are going to be affected by the dumping of chemicals, but those who make their living off the river in some manner.

Dead on.

Workers don't escalate class tension by hurting other workers. Does anyone actually thing the Bourgeoise are going to get hurt by killing the river? Only the people that make their living on the river are going to get hurt. You hurt the Borugeoise in only one way--by shutting down their places of business.

Besides, the company the truck drivers are protesting against is about to go out of business--they DON'T HAVE ANY MONEY to give to the workers.


what the fuck is wrong with you?, etc... A little over the top there don't you think? ;)

[NecroCommie]

Where as I hope they are bluffing, generally taken I take this as a good news. A clear sign of increasing class tension and worker radicalism.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

I said it was "distressingly close" to terrorism, not an actual instance of such.

It is terrorism. I personally think we should stop using the word though as it has been distorted from there original meaning and now means "people who mean business I dont like".


If the bosses were ruthless enough they could just let them go ahead and do it before having them arrested for deliberately polluting the environment, which I'm sure is illegal in France. And then they would be in the merde in more ways than one, wouldn't they?

Yes but then they would have a widespread "free the truckers" campaign claiming how the bosses action drove the workers to desperation damaging the companies reputation and henceforth profit, so they wont be doing that.


(Ps bus struggle supports your post , does this mean I automatically win?)

[Bud Struggle]

(Ps bus struggle supports your post , does this mean I automatically win?)

Joe, there is a difference between Worker Struggles and a Temper Tantrum and polluting a river is definitely the latter. Who owns the river? The truck company management or the people of France?

The truck company doesn't have any money--they can't gise to the workers what they don't have.

[OneNamedNameLess]

(Ps bus struggle supports your post , does this mean I automatically win?)

Why even ask? Instant win.

As I said before:

I don't know what to think about such tactics. Obviously I am not in a desperate situation like these workers but surely they want to gain further support from the public? Polluting rivers will only result in pissing people off. Surely this would be a danger to poeple's health too? Don't get me wrong, it's great to see them taking such a militant approach to their employees, and the inequalities ingrained in the capitalist system.
__________________

[OneNamedNameLess]

what the fuck is wrong with you?
what the fuck does that have anything to do with it?
I wouldn't eat salmon from Europe anyway
My concern for the health of the people who could be affected by this would have nothing to do with my like or dislike of motherfucking salmon, you thick fucking imbecile

It was a joke mate and a pretty good one at that.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

It is terrorism. I personally think we should stop using the word though as it has been distorted from there original meaning and now means "people who mean business I dont like".

Trashing the depot would not be an act of terrorism and would actually cost the bosses money. It's called hitting them where it hurts, in this case the wallet. Either the workers haven't thought their tactics through or there's something we're not being told.


Yes but then they would have a widespread "free the truckers" campaign claiming how the bosses action drove the workers to desperation damaging the companies reputation and henceforth profit, so they wont be doing that.

Well, that depends doesn't it? It's not the bosses threatening to dump chemicals into the river. A post-arrest campaign could turn out to be a waste of time, depending on two key factors; whether enough people give a shit and the tactics used. Or the bosses could genuinely be spineless enough to be convinced by a threat that doesn't directly damage them. I don't know.


(Ps bus struggle supports your post , does this mean I automatically win?)

This ain't a dick-measuring contest, and I couldn't care less about BS's opinion (no offence Bud).

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

If we don't object to the threat of an armed revolution (that is, killing people), why should we object to the threat of killing fish?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

If we don't object to the threat of an armed revolution (that is, killing people), why should we object to the threat of killing fish?

So you're telling me you'd have no problems grabbing random people as hostages and threatening to shoot them unless you get your way?

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Joe, there is a difference between Worker Struggles and a Temper Tantrum and polluting a river is definitely the latter. Who owns the river? The truck company management or the people of France?

The truck company doesn't have any money--they can't gise to the workers what they don't have.

This act is clever in the way that A its publicity , B It puts public pressure on the company to dig deep (personal funds) and on the state to pay them off. Of course revleft can come up with better ideas* but revleft isnt currently doing this kind of direction action.

*A ram raiding campaign against the homes of those who run the company for example or by kidnapping them and pouring petrol over them and then asking for the money (which has been done in France before).

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Trashing the depot would not be an act of terrorism and would actually cost the bosses money. It's called hitting them where it hurts, in this case the wallet. Either the workers haven't thought their tactics through or there's something we're not being told.

But you see this is what they are doing and we should support them 100% and news of desperate workers on the edge is likely to help in an increasingly millitant france.




Well, that depends doesn't it? It's not the bosses threatening to dump chemicals into the river. A post-arrest campaign could turn out to be a waste of time, depending on two key factors; whether enough people give a shit and the tactics used. Or the bosses could genuinely be spineless enough to be convinced by a threat that doesn't directly damage them. I don't know.

I dont see how a campaign which would likely arise from their arrest would not directly damage the Company.




This ain't a dick-measuring contest, and I couldn't care less about BS's opinion (no offence Bud).



That son is where your wrong

http://www.auburnschools.org/yarbrough/kroberts/ani-tape.gif

[OneNamedNameLess]

If we don't object to the threat of an armed revolution (that is, killing people), why should we object to the threat of killing fish?

DB was joking ffs. When are you going to get that through your head?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

But you see this is what they are doing and we should support them 100% and news of desperate workers on the edge is likely to help in an increasingly millitant france.

If the workers involved feel they have to threaten environmental damage in order to gain redress, so be it. But it still makes me feel distinctly uneasy. I feel that a line has to be drawn and that threatening to damage environments that we all live in is perilously close to that line.


I dont see how a campaign which would likely arise from their arrest would not directly damage the Company.

Perhaps things are different in France, but in my imagination if something like that happened over here most people would not give a shit.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

If the workers involved feel they have to threaten environmental damage in order to gain redress, so be it. But it still makes me feel distinctly uneasy. I feel that a line has to be drawn and that threatening to damage environments that we all live in is perilously close to that line.

I dont think its for us not in their position to decide if any lines need drawing.




Perhaps things are different in France, but in my imagination if something like that happened over here most people would not give a shit.


Considering in france bossnapping has popular support i think things are rather different.

[Robert]

if actions like this teroize the boses into treating workers better for fear out of the potential consequences then good.

With logic like that they could justify a threat to blow up schools if the bosses agreed to "treat workers better."

Why isn't striking enough?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I dont think its for us not in their position to decide if any lines need drawing.

Nobody is above criticism.


Considering in france bossnapping has popular support i think things are rather different.

Fair enough.

[OneNamedNameLess]

If the workers involved feel they have to threaten environmental damage in order to gain redress, so be it. But it still makes me feel distinctly uneasy. I feel that a line has to be drawn and that threatening to damage environments that we all live in is perilously close to that line.

Put it this way, there are other methods that they could employ to settle the matter. This tactic is more likely to decrease support from Parisians.

Excuse the failed quote.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Put it this way, there are other methods that they could employ to settle the matter. This tactic is more likely to decrease support from Parisians.

I think that's a valid concern - certainly I would feel little sympathy towards those threatening to pollute my local environment in order to make a point.


Excuse the failed quote.

Fixed that for ya. :)

[danyboy27]

the thing about salmon.

the water of river go straight in the ocean, and unlike the normal human feces found in the senne river, chemical can stay inside animal bodies for a long time, during generation until a human actually eat the animal.
cancer, genetic malformation etc etc etc. enjoy your salmon

worker 1: well, that damn assole dont want to pay even tho we threatened to blow up their factories!

worker 2: lets poison our own food supply!

worker 1: that will teach them! damn bourgeois!

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

With logic like that they could justify a threat to blow up schools if the bosses agreed to "treat workers better."


It could but from a practical standpoint murdering peoples children would be political suicide for anyone wishing to be anything other then a bunch of bomb planting nutters.

Not only that but it wouldn't work.



Why isn't striking enough?

Because scabs can be drawn in and manly because the company is closing down anyway.

[danyboy27]

It could but from a practical standpoint murdering peoples children would be political suicide for anyone wishing to be anything other then a bunch of bomb planting nutters.

Not only that but it wouldn't work.
.

deliberate pollution isnt a political suicide:confused:

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

No.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

DB was joking ffs. When are you going to get that through your head?

that post had nothing to do with his joke ffs

[Conquer or Die]

Workers in France aren't proletarians.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Workers in France aren't proletarians.

So what are they?

[Conquer or Die]

So what are they?

Paid off class traitors. See: Fascism, Trotskyism, Libertarianism, Liberalism.

ED: Anarchists aren't class traitors, they are just confused and nearly non-existent.

[Revy]

I hope they're not really going to dump all that toxic waste into the river. What if the community uses water from the river?

and workers in France aren't proletarian? :rolleyes:

[Conquer or Die]

and workers in France aren't proletarian? :rolleyes:

Yes, workers in france aren't proletarian.

[revolution inaction]

Its a tactic that has been used before

http://libcom.org/history/2000-cellatex-chemical-plant-occupation

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

I hope they're not really going to dump all that toxic waste into the river. What if the community uses water from the river?

and workers in France aren't proletarian? :rolleyes:

People in france tend not to have too drink and wash in rivers.

[Revy]

People in france tend not to have too drink and wash in rivers.

Rivers are often used as a source of fresh water....
I'd imagine they'd run the water through some kind of processing plant but still, how do we know the water isn't being used by the community?

[ZeroNowhere]

Yes, let us struggle against the fishy class. On a more serious note, just because something is a form of class struggle, it doesn't make it good, or worth supporting. I mean, seriously, if the bosses don't give in, would you really have no issue with them dumping poison in the Seine?

Seriously, more Yang Wenli and less Oberstein, people.


I dont think its for us not in their position to decide if any lines need drawing.I don't think it's for you not in our position to decide if we can decide if any lines need drawing.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Rivers are often used as a source of fresh water....
I'd imagine they'd run the water through some kind of processing plant but still, how do we know the water isn't being used by the community?

Because you can quite easily see on the internet what the river is for and its for recreational and tourist boating as well as looking nice.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Paid off class traitors. See: Fascism, Trotskyism, Libertarianism, Liberalism.

How can you be a traitor to something you never swore allegiance to in the first place?


ED: Anarchists aren't class traitors, they are just confused and nearly non-existent.

I'll let the anarchists tell me what they are as well as their level of confusion and existance. I tend to mistrust people who condemn millions that they have never met as traitors to something most of them have never believed in.

After all, what does one do with traitors? Usually they are executed. So, do you think millions of people should be killed? Or perhaps "re-educated" (a horrible euphemism if there ever was one)?

[Ele'ill]

Because you can quite easily see on the internet...


You know- There are times when maps.google has flat out lied to my face.



Poisoning any river, stream, brook, creek, ocean, sea, bay, port is a really bad idea. They will end up sacrificing too much and changing as people.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Worked last time.

[ZeroNowhere]

After all, what does one do with traitors? Usually they are executed. So, do you think millions of people should be killed? Or perhaps "re-educated" (a horrible euphemism if there ever was one)?Just saying, but this is a faulty argument. Say one were playing Risk in a recreational setting. Somebody who was supposed to be helping you then turns around and begins conquering some of your countries. Can they be said to be betraying you, and thus a traitor? Yes, despite the fact that they probably won't be killed or anything along those lines.

What's more interesting is how people could be class traitors if they apparently aren't and never were part of said class. Also why fascists, anarchists, liberals and Trots can't be proletarian.

[Ele'ill]

Worked last time.

Apparently not.


Through repetition perhaps they become no better than those destroying the ecosystems of our planet for economic gain or those waging war for the similar reasons.

Its irrelevant that the end result may be good and just when the means is so destructive and opens up so many more avenues for abuse and extremes.

[Ele'ill]

What's more interesting is how people could be class traitors if they apparently aren't and never were part of said class. Also why fascists, anarchists, liberals and Trots can't be proletarian.


1 : the laboring class; especially : the class of industrial workers who lack their own means of production and hence sell their labor to live
2 : the lowest social or economic class of a community




Why are anarchists NOT proletarian?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Just saying, but this is a faulty argument. Say one were playing Risk in a recreational setting. Somebody who was supposed to be helping you then turns around and begins conquering some of your countries. Can they be said to be betraying you, and thus a traitor? Yes, despite the fact that they probably won't be killed or anything along those lines.

Risk is a game, played for recreational purposes. Is class struggle a game?

[ZeroNowhere]

Risk is a game, played for recreational purposes. Is class struggle a game?Is class struggle the same as the contexts in which traitors are usually killed? My point is that the fact that traitors are often executed in, say, wars, doesn't mean that calling somebody a 'class traitor' is implying that they deserve some kind of punishment.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Is class struggle the same as the contexts in which traitors are usually killed? My point is that the fact that traitors are often executed in, say, wars, doesn't mean that calling somebody a 'class traitor' is implying that they deserve some kind of punishment.

It's implied by the use of the word. Outside of games, treason is serious business. Why is class struggle an exception?

[Bud Struggle]

Why is class struggle an exception?

It's a matter of personal belief. You are a trator is you believe in chass struggle and you betray your class--but if you don't believe in such a thing, you can hardly be a trator to something you don't believe exists.

In the same way that you NoXion can't be a trator to God because you don't believe he exists--on the other hand I can be trator to God because I believe in him.

[ZeroNowhere]

It's a matter of personal belief. You are a trator is you believe in chass struggle and you betray your class--but if you don't believe in such a thing, you can hardly be a trator to something you don't believe exists.
Wait, why can't somebody be a traitor to something they don't believe exists?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Are you drunk? I thought your posts were less ridden with typos and poor spelling than this.


It's a matter of personal belief. You are a trator is you believe in chass struggle and you betray your class--but if you don't believe in such a thing, you can hardly be a trator to something you don't believe exists.

In the same way that you NoXion can't be a trator to God because you don't believe he exists--on the other hand I can be trator to God because I believe in him.

But evidently Sega Communist does believe that workers in France are traitors, and thus should be dealt with as such, which is my point. Obviously I don't think it's right but it's the logical inference of his views.

[Bud Struggle]

Wait, why can't somebody be a traitor to something they don't believe exists?

Well, you need evidence that a thing exists. The United States actually does exist, there's plenty of evidence for it--so you could be a traitor to this country called the United States. Class Struggle isn't a concrete thing--it's a subcategory in a philosophical system that very few people believe in these days. Now you either subscribe to that system of belief or not--but if you don't, it's no different that being a traitor to Buddahism (if of course you don't believe in Buddahism.)

A much different thing than being a traitor to a country.

Now you can insist that Class Struggle exists as a philosophical concept no matter if you believe in it or not--but then you begin to sound like a Born Again Christian saying that God will judge you if you believe in him or not.

[Bud Struggle]

Are you drunk? I thought your posts were less ridden with typos and poor spelling than this. We're washing the dogs and I'm on a sucky PC in the barn and some keys are sticking and I'm not paying attention. My apologies--there really is no excuse.




But evidently Sega Communist does believe that workers in France are traitors, and thus should be dealt with as such, which is my point. Obviously I don't think it's right but it's the logical inference of his views.

And I'm saying you can't be a traitor to a philosophical ideal unless you believe in that ideal.

[Ele'ill]

What kind of dogs are they?

[RotStern]

I would not support this. Instead I would once again bossnap those fucking bastards pour petrol on them until they do as we want. xD lol
For me it would depend on the river and how it is used. The workers in France would have a much better understanding of how it is used than any of us.
The French aren't a stupid people. I'm sure they have it all worked out. :)

[Ele'ill]

I would not support this. Instead I would once again bossnap those fucking bastards pour petrol on them until they do as we want. xD lol
For me it would depend on the river and how it is used. The workers in France would have a much better understanding of how it is used than any of us.
The French aren't a stupid people. I'm sure they have it all worked out. :)

People destroy their own communities all the time.

[Conquer or Die]

After all, what does one do with traitors? Usually they are executed. So, do you think millions of people should be killed? Or perhaps "re-educated" (a horrible euphemism if there ever was one)?

Casino capitalists are taking their turn raping Africa and South Asia while being completely unnoticed and supported by the inflated consumerism of the first world. Second world countries are currently mishmashing internally and their selling out to privatization could either mean entry into the first world elite or more likely a retreat to worse living standards.

If anything, the revolution will start in The Congo, detour down south, and then proceed north.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Casino capitalists are taking their turn raping Africa and South Asia while being completely unnoticed and supported by the inflated consumerism of the first world. Second world countries are currently mishmashing internally and their selling out to privatization could either mean entry into the first world elite or more likely a retreat to worse living standards.

If anything, the revolution will start in The Congo, detour down south, and then proceed north.

You didn't answer my question. What's going to happen to all those millions of "traitors"?

[Bud Struggle]

If anything, the revolution will start in The Congo, detour down south, and then proceed north.

What are you talking about? The Revolution already happened in the Congo.

The Congo IS Anarchism--just not the polite kind advocated by Revleft.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=111947091

After U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton's visit to the Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC) this week, there is no better time to revisit a question that we posed in March on ForeignPolicy.com. Does the "Congo" - a vast, mineral rich and war torn country — really exist as such?
"There Is No Congo," we argued; no sovereign Congolese authority exists. The international community should stop pretending that the DRC is ruled from the putative capital, Kinshasa. Instead, why not act pragmatically and work with those in the different parts of Congo who exercise real power?

That's REAL Anarchism.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Oh dear buds forgotten which hole your supposed to talk out of.

[Bud Struggle]

Oh dear buds forgotten which hole your supposed to talk out of.

Anarchy like Marxism (Stalinism) isn't always pretty, Joe. :(

What makes you believe that if Anarchy does come it will be the sanatized variety being hawked here on Revleft? ;) The type of Anarchy being practiced in the Congo seems to be the kind most favored by those that actually author Anarchism in the real world.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Anarchy like Marxism (Stalinism) isn't always pretty, Joe.

I dunno you have to admit that seeing a church burn to the ground would be rather pretty.


What makes you believe that if Anarchy does come it will be the sanatized variety being hawked here on Revleft?

What do you mean, the type seen briefly in Spain and the Ukraine or the hippy crap that gets seen on here alot.


;) They type in the Congo seems to be the kind most favored by those that actually author Anarchism in the real world.

An = No
Archy = Rulers

Funnily enough there are rulers in the Congo even if they are throwing poor people at each other in the hope of making some money. Seriously stop getting your political definitions off Johnny Rotten.

[Bud Struggle]

Funnily enough there are rulers in the Congo even if they are throwing poor people at each other in the hope of making some money..

Maybe that's what Anarchy is, in the Third World at least. I just don't understand why you would think Anarchy--or any change in government would be "polite."

You'll want what you want, I'll want what I want--we'll "disagree" and maybe do so with serious consequences to life and limb. Without a true authority, I could gather a few friends together and "help" people out. You could do the same. Who's to say that won't occur.

When the Revolution comes if people want to behave in a certain way and think we can all work things out, that's fine with them--other's just may see an opportunity to conquer.

[Robert]

I dunno you have to admit that seeing a church burn to the ground would be rather pretty. Your fire may have some symbolic beauty, but do you really think the world would be more beautiful without, say the Sistine Chapel, the stained glass of Notre Dame de Paris, or the Cathedral at Chartres?

http://www.notredamedeparis.fr/local/cache-vignettes/L220xH298/arton448-733f0.jpg

What would you erect in their places? Please don't say "homeless shelters"; isn't there room enough for both?

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Maybe that's what Anarchy is, in the Third World at least.

No because it still dosent meet the definition (the word is a translation of "no rulers") and henceforth is not anarchy. I think you can grasp this fact and understand that saying anarchy is a poor country with people trying to kill each other (With rulers may i add) is like saying a goldfish meets the criteria for a traffic cone.


I just don't understand why you would think Anarchy--or any change in government would be "polite."


Where did I say that?

A changing the group in power tends to be always quite nasty (not including mere factions in one group already in power)



You'll want what you want, I'll want what I want--we'll "disagree" and maybe do so with serious consequences to life and limb.

Maybe but why would we bother to do that when the commune's police would probably arrest us for it.



Without a true authority, I could gather a few friends together and "help" people out. You could do the same. Who's to say that won't occur.


Under anarchism/Communism thats far less likely to happen today, I think preventing gangs will be done rather efficiently as those who live in areas effected will not turn a blind eye like that state does in many cases , no I think the gangsters would be far more likely to be shot/detained by the communal police or militia.


When the Revolution comes if people want to behave in a certain way and think we can all work things out, that's fine with them--other's just may see an opportunity to conquer.


Yes but thats why an armed force is rather important to defend these gains with force if needed from said arseholes as well as having a system of goverment which denies them any chance of usurping the working class without its consent.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

What would you erect in their places? Please don't say "homeless shelters"; isn't there room enough for both?

Brothels.

[Robert]

If I had said that I'd be banned for male chauvinist sexism.

Sheesh.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

What would you erect in their places?

We have lots of choices. Schools, universities, parks, hospitals, research laboratories, theatres, libraries, nightclubs, art galleries - all of these and more provide genuine succour and advancement to the human condition.

[RotStern]

Nightclubs?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Nightclubs?

Yes, nightclubs. Not all of us are going to become stiff-necked jumpsuited worker bees that read a chapter of Marx before bedtime, you know.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Doesn't sound like the brightest idea I've ever heard.

What's next? Forest Fires? Blowing up dams? Crop-dusting Paris with DDT?

edit: didn't check to see where this thread had already gone. Seeing as the glorious vision of red shirts roaming the strrets burning down churches and destroying art for some revolutionary mantra has already been mentioned, my comment is a bit obsolete I suppose.

Just know, it's shit like that which gets the Left this reputation of wackos who offer no real way forward without torching at least some parts of everything. Maybe the french take pride and embrace that, but I find it annoying.

[Die Rote Fahne]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/aug/20/france-transport-river-seine-pollution

found that topic in worker struggle, just wanted to share it with the other OIer.

Personally i think its an horrible way to blackmail the bosses, and its horrible for the ecosystem.

Negative situations for people and for the environment would ultimately harm the workers.

Have we not heard of striking?

[Conquer or Die]

Anarchy like Marxism (Stalinism) isn't always pretty, Joe. :(

What makes you believe that if Anarchy does come it will be the sanatized variety being hawked here on Revleft? ;) The type of Anarchy being practiced in the Congo seems to be the kind most favored by those that actually author Anarchism in the real world.

Imperialism causes the conditions of the Congo. Businesses pay off warlords for slave labor and terrorism and this goes completely smooth thanks to the first world governments of the world who turn the other cheek.

Congo is also the worst humanitarian crisis in the world.

[Bud Struggle]

Imperialism causes the conditions of the Congo. Businesses pay off warlords for slave labor and terrorism and this goes completely smooth thanks to the first world governments of the world who turn the other cheek.

Congo is also the worst humanitarian crisis in the world.

I definitely agree--also one could make a analogy that a good portion of Africa is in a similar (though maybe not as bad) condition. And I would have no problem blaming all of that on Capitalisms past and present.

My point is how do you get from the Anarchism of the Congo to the well regulated and well thought out Anarchism discussed here in RevLeft?

It seems to me to be huge problem--I'm not saying it can't be done, I just see it as an issue. I think a society like America's or Europe's could be brought to Anarchism much easier than Africa in general or the Congo in particular--and as a matter of fact maybe any attempt at Anarchy in that part of the world could bring even further crisis and pain to those people.

[OneNamedNameLess]

My point is how do you get from the Anarchism of the Congo to the well regulated and well thought out Anarchism discussed here in RevLeft?

You see bud, the answer to that is a transitional stage :D

[Robert]

Comrade Joe, not to beat dead horse, but those stained glass windows above were a triumph of human artistry, craftsmanship and design as well as dedications to the memories of dead saints. I can't imagine that the artisans were not immensely proud of their craftsmanship and the solace it gave -- still gives -- to those who see it.

And some of the saints gave their lives to the poor and resisted Roman imperialists in the name of brotherly love. I'm not understanding these destructive urges. Can't we make a compromise: let the churches stand if they are highly taxed to pay for your whorehouses?

[Bud Struggle]

Comrade Joe, not to beat dead horse, but those stained glass windows above were a triumph of human artistry, craftsmanship and design as well as dedications to the memories of dead saints. I can't imagine that the artisans were not immensely proud of their craftsmanship and the solace it gave -- still gives -- to those who see it.

And some of the saints gave their lives to the poor and resisted Roman imperialists in the name of brotherly love. I'm not understanding these destructive urges. Can't we make a compromise: let the churches stand if they are highly taxed to pay for your whorehouses?

It seem that Comrade Joe (and some blokes like him) have been reading 1984 as a "how to" guide for the future. :rolleyes:

[Robert]

Truer words were never spoken. you know that central villain, Emmanuel Goldstein I think was his name, in 1984? Substitute Ayn Rand and we've got a little dystopia right here.

Welcome to Oceania:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/75/1984_Social_Classes_alt.svg/180px-1984_Social_Classes_alt.svg.png

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Comrade Joe, not to beat dead horse, but those stained glass windows above were a triumph of human artistry, craftsmanship and design as well as dedications to the memories of dead saints. I can't imagine that the artisans were not immensely proud of their craftsmanship and the solace it gave -- still gives -- to those who see it.

And some of the saints gave their lives to the poor and resisted Roman imperialists in the name of brotherly love. I'm not understanding these destructive urges. Can't we make a compromise: let the churches stand if they are highly taxed to pay for your whorehouses?

Il make a deal , we keep the churches as long as barring the elderly and ugly people we allow it to contain a twenty four seven orgy.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

It seem that Comrade Joe (and some blokes like him) have been reading 1984 as a "how to" guide for the future. :rolleyes:

Defiantly. Although please in future contact my offices for permission before you choose to express yourself on revleft.

[Robert]

barring the elderly and ugly people

Now you've hit a nerve. I hope there are lawcourts in your Brave New World so I'll have a place to sue you for discrimination.:lol:

[RGacky3]

I don't agree with the tactics, I think its pointless and could be damaging.

However I wish people would post more about the things Capitalist do to stop worker struggle, and the poluting they do in the name of profit.


It seems to me to be huge problem--I'm not saying it can't be done, I just see it as an issue. I think a society like America's or Europe's could be brought to Anarchism much easier than Africa in general or the Congo in particular--and as a matter of fact maybe any attempt at Anarchy in that part of the world could bring even further crisis and pain to those people.

In my opinion Anarchists now, work toward democratizing and liberating more and more of society as possible. Anarchist full blown revolutions are not nessesarily the ONLY goal, obviously its the ultimate goal, but for places like America and Europe, anarchism is about democratizing the society, and helping the third world in their struggles.

In places like Africa or South America there are much more drastic problems that require drastic revolutions


Maybe that's what Anarchy is, in the Third World at least. I just don't understand why you would think Anarchy--or any change in government would be "polite."

You'll want what you want, I'll want what I want--we'll "disagree" and maybe do so with serious consequences to life and limb. Without a true authority, I could gather a few friends together and "help" people out. You could do the same. Who's to say that won't occur.

When the Revolution comes if people want to behave in a certain way and think we can all work things out, that's fine with them--other's just may see an opportunity to conquer.

The Revolution, is not a series of coups, warlord takeovers, and the such, what happend in the congo, was not a popular uprising of the people. The situation was not even close to that.

[Bud Struggle]

The Revolution, is not a series of coups, warlord takeovers, and the such, what happend in the congo, was not a popular uprising of the people. The situation was not even close to that.

A country like Zimbabwe could be said to have a pretty legitimate people's Revolution--and has installed a self declared "Communist" Robert Mugabe as President.

What could be better than that? ;)

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

You not trolling?

[Bud Struggle]

You not trolling?

No, I'm making a point about Revolutions--just because they SEEM to have all the right parts--Communist, from the people, all of that--it doesn't actually make them legitimate.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Its not a matter of being legit its a matter of structuring organizations propley so things dont go tits up.

[Bud Struggle]

Its not a matter of being legit its a matter of structuring organizations propley so things dont go tits up.

No one's seemed to have mastered that art quite yet. I'm quite curious to see how it could be done. Like getting from the Congo to Southern Mexico--both rather third world places, both poor and out of the way--yet one is a bloodfest and one seems to be getting things fairly right.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

The issue with many revolutions that made societies that tend to get overun. So far I belive this is no due to any kind of fault within anarchist that makes it weak war wise (infact look at the amazing record of the ukrainain black army) but I do belive that just to make sure it would be helpful to get nukes.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

The issue with many revolutions that made societies that tend to get overun. So far I belive this is no due to any kind of fault within anarchist that makes it weak war wise (infact look at the amazing record of the ukrainain black army) but I do belive that just to make sure it would be helpful to get nukes.

Do you have any links/information with regards to the organisation and practices of the Ukrainian Black Army?

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Insurrectionary_Army_of_Ukraine

Of course if you want more detailed stuff theres always ,

http://www.nestormakhno.info/index.htm

[Bud Struggle]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Insurrectionary_Army_of_Ukraine

Of course if you want more detailed stuff theres always ,

http://www.nestormakhno.info/index.htm

Interesting sites, Joe. It's appears the only place where Marxist and Anarchist aren't at war is on RevLeft. :cool: