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Die Rote Fahne
21st August 2009, 04:39
This is gonna be long, so get a drink, and pull up a comfy chair.

We've had feudalism. Which was followed by a progression into capitalism. Which will be followed by a progression into socialism.

Capitalism is far from successful. If it were successful we wouldn't see it's side effects:

- Poverty and homelessness of hundreds of thousands, even millions, in the richest nation in the world.

- The exploitation of children and women for profit.

- The death's/refusal to treat ill people for the idea of making profit.

- War in Iraq, Vietnam, Korea, WW1, etc.

- Global Warming.

- Poverty and Starvation in Africa.

- Unemployment.

- Child Labour/Slavery.

- Jobs leaving your own country to go to others for cheap labour.

- An employee is not paid according to the true worth of his labor but according to what the employer is willing to pay him.

- Great depression and the numerous recessions.

- Inequality in wealth creates crime.

I can go on and on.

Almost the entire world is capitalist. And almost the entire world is poor. There's capitalist Indonesia, capitalist India, capitalist Thailand, Nigeria, El Salvador, Argentina, Russia, Poland, Bulgaria. Privatization, third worldization. Poor. The number of people living in poverty today is growing at a faster rate than the world's population. That is capitalism expansion and prosperity.

Capitalism does not quite work well for people in those countries. However, it is capitalism at it's most successful...for the capitalists of those countries. The capitalists are doing well but the people aren't doing too well.

But it's given the USA a good standard of living right? That I am going to refute now. Let's put aside the mass inequalities. The tens of millions of people who struggle form hand to mouth. The many without economic security, the middle class getting ripped off by being overworked and loss of benefits. Let's put aside the impoverishment of the public sector and the destruction of a livable environment. Let's accept the idea that we live in great material abundance, which many do. But it wasn't capitalism that gave us this standard of living, it was the democratic struggle against capitalism. They didn't give us all these things. Why don't Americans work for 15 cents an hour? Is it because of self respect? No. It's because the democratic class struggle has advanced to a more favourable level. In the 1900s America was a 3rd world country. 50 years before the term was invented. Poverty, 14 hour work days, 10 year olds working in factories, no social services to speak of, typhoid epidemics, TB and other diseases of poverty, very little public education. Advances came not with capitalism, that condition, that's what capitalism gave us. A pure free market undiluted unregulated capitalism in 1900 with massive margins of profit. Massive wealth for the Mellons and the Morgans and the Hartfords and the Rockefellers. What did they want? More and more money. It was the working people who fought and fought for public education, the 8 hour day, decent housing, minimum wage and discrimination. Name one great intellectual and political leader who fought for those things before the people.

Now. To get to Einstein:

Einstein published a Marxist analysis of labor exploitation in capitalist economies in the socialist journal Monthly Review. He denounced "the economic anarchy" and "crippling egotism" of capitalist society and called for "the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system oriented towards social goals." The essay offered the following take on capitalism's tendency to concentrate wealth and centralize control of both politics and ideology:
Private capital tends to become concentrated in few hands, partly because of competition among the capitalists, and partly because technological development and the increasing division of labor encourage the formation of larger units of production at the expense of smaller ones. The results of these developments is an oligarchy of private capital, the enormous power of which cannot be effectively checked even by a democratically organized political society.... Moreover, under existing conditions, private capitalists inevitably control, directly or indirectly, the main sources of information (press, radio, education). It is thus extremely difficult, and indeed in most cases quite impossible, for the individual citizen to come to objective conclusions and to make intelligent use of his political rights.


I believe I did a fairly alright job in that.

Bud Struggle
21st August 2009, 16:34
Capitalism is far from successful. That depends. Not to sound snarky but Capitalism succeeds beautifully for those that already have money and power--and since they control the system you won't see them chafing for change.

Capitalism doesn't succeed for those that have nothing to begin with--but since they have little power to control how things operate--Capitalism will remain as it is. Now the people, because of their large numbers and collective power and wealth could always and anytime take control of the system and change it to Communism or anything else they so desire--but for some reason attempts to do so in the past haven't worked out very well. One could assume with better education and a better understanding of what's involved in assumption of power attmmpts at Communism might do better in the future than in the past. An average America worker is a thousand times better educated than a Russian peasent in 1917 or a Chinese laborer in 1949--so Communism might very well succeed if tried in the First World.

Unfortunately, there is little to no interest in such things here in America. We have been taught, quite successfully, that all Americans are THE SAME--no one is greater or mare important than anyone else under the eyes of the law and Democracy. Communism seems to preach just the opposite--two classes, and that just isn't a part of the American vernacular.

What Communism has is a failure to communicate.


I believe I did a fairly alright job in that. Lovely!

Muzk
21st August 2009, 18:33
Durr, but I still see people saying 'capitalism works! There is no other way.' when they see all the shit that's going on.

About communism? They say it doesn't work and will never work! Because it's "made for small communities" <-- SOMEONE MISREAD THE MANIFESTO THERE
And point their fat fingers at Stalin, Mao,
as well as saying 'humans are too different! Why would everyone do the same?"
Or such bullshit as "my car is our car, my dog is our dog"...
They all take their opinions from other people.

All those propaganda lies...

Who owns what you know?

danyboy27
21st August 2009, 20:02
in my opinion both capitalism and communism work, it just never does the way its supposed to be.

i seriously dont give a rat ass wich system will prevail, you gotta do what you gotta do to survive.

Misanthrope
22nd August 2009, 19:47
At least post Dr. Michael Parenti's lecture in its entirety..

trivas7
22nd August 2009, 20:40
Capitalism is far from successful.
What competes w/ this failed system?

Ele'ill
22nd August 2009, 20:48
Capitalism is far from successful. If it were successful we wouldn't see it's side effects:

Every system is going to have flaws. And every system when controlled by violent people is going to be a violent system.

If the current American government was flooded with leftists but they HAD to reform what do you think would happen? Could they do something with what they were given?

If the reigns were just handed over to anarchists with no need for an immediate change- what would occur?

Bud Struggle
22nd August 2009, 21:14
If the reigns were just handed over to anarchists with no need for an immediate change- what would occur?

http://br.geocities.com/camaradasadico/stalin.jpg

Muzk
22nd August 2009, 22:53
http://xs942.xs.to/xs942/09346/stalin306.jpg

Ele'ill
23rd August 2009, 00:48
Oh. The pringles guy wearing a military uniform..

Misanthrope
23rd August 2009, 03:04
Oh. The pringles guy wearing a military uniform..
:laugh:

Wonderful.

Die Rote Fahne
23rd August 2009, 06:23
At least post Dr. Michael Parenti's lecture in its entirety..

He was my main source for the post.

I should have quoted him properly, but I'm not sure if I paraphrased or actually quoted him. I have the video somewhere on my computer.

mikelepore
23rd August 2009, 22:42
But it's given the USA a good standard of living right? That I am going to refute now.

I think your subject is very important. People need to be reminded as often as possible.

The standard of living in the U.S. has been dropping continuously for the past fifty years. In the 1950s a family having one wage earner with a high school diploma could buy a house and have no major problem making the payments, travel somewhere on vacation once a year, heat the house, pay medical bills. It's approximately equivalent to to a family today having two college educated wage earners. That's a very sharp drop in the standard of living.

RGacky3
23rd August 2009, 23:23
That depends. Not to sound snarky but Capitalism succeeds beautifully for those that already have money and power--and since they control the system you won't see them chafing for change.

Yes sir, you are correct, I'm glad you recognize that.

And Monarchy works beautifully for kings and nobles.


Capitalism doesn't succeed for those that have nothing to begin with--but since they have little power to control how things operate--Capitalism will remain as it is. Now the people, because of their large numbers and collective power and wealth could always and anytime take control of the system and change it to Communism or anything else they so desire--but for some reason attempts to do so in the past haven't worked out very well. One could assume with better education and a better understanding of what's involved in assumption of power attmmpts at Communism might do better in the future than in the past. An average America worker is a thousand times better educated than a Russian peasent in 1917 or a Chinese laborer in 1949--so Communism might very well succeed if tried in the First World.


True,

However, socialism is working in the third world now, to a degree, obviously you work with what you have, and many of the third world countries don't have much to work with.


Unfortunately, there is little to no interest in such things here in America. We have been taught, quite successfully, that all Americans are THE SAME--no one is greater or mare important than anyone else under the eyes of the law and Democracy. Communism seems to preach just the opposite--two classes, and that just isn't a part of the American vernacular.

What Communism has is a failure to communicate.

We have been taught, essencially, that political power and economic power are compleatly seperate, and that political power is democratic. I think the number one thing communists try to point out is that economic and political power are intertwined almost to a point to where they are the same.

The class thing in america is right. In the United States the class culture is different from europe, considering the United States is a very new country, and developed somewhat differently. THe class system as far as power and wealth as actually MUCH more pronounced than Europe. However there is'nt the history to go along with it.

Most people in America though have a basic understanding of class. What the United States has also been able to do is essencailly master propeganda in a way that would make the USSR propegandists jizz their pants. In the United States, dispite all evidence, the ruling class is able to act as if any deviation from the washington/wallstreet line would end up in total tyranny and disaster. They hide facts, simple claim things that are rediculously on one side so that the argument ends up shifting way way to the right, and sometimes simply lie.

Some people might say that in America no one wants anything socialistic and people are not revolutionry, in my opinion, the fact that America has a lot of dissent, and a lot of resistance to state and corporate control dispite the unique and extreme conditions of the country is amazing. If there is one thing I'd be slightly patriotic about, it would be that.