Landowers in Ireland

[Cael]

The Kulaks got what was coming to them. Stalin was correct to face down their criminality. I only hope a similar fate awaits the landowners of Ireland.

[ComradeOm]

The Kulaks got what was coming to them. Stalin was correct to face down their criminality. I only hope a similar fate awaits the landowners of Ireland.What century are you living in?

Edit: Really, what on earth makes you think that Ireland retains a sizeable landowning or kulak class? And don't you know that the two are not the same?

[Cael]

What century are you living in?

Edit: Really, what on earth makes you think that Ireland retains a sizeable landowning or kulak class? And don't you know that the two are not the same?

It doesnt - which should make it all the more easy to eliminate them as a class. 86% of the land of Ireland is owned by 3% of the population. This is a worse situation than existed in Cuba before the Revolution when 8% of the Cuban population owned 75% of the land.

[ComradeOm]

Where on earth are you getting those numbers from? For a start the figures are bullshit as 15% of Irish citizens own farmland (see here (http://www.feasta.org/events/landconf/landconfbrief.pdf), PDF). Secondly, the comparison with Cuba is simply stupid - you are comparing a pre-industrial colonial society, ie one in which the vast majority of the population were engaged in agriculture, to a modern urbanised society

Any concentration in agriculture in today's Ireland is the result of capitalist growth and does not indicate some sort of old landowning class. The old estate system - ie, the actual landowning class and accompanying peasant farming - was systematically dismantled by the Land Commission which established the small private farm as the basic agricultural unit in Ireland

[Cael]

Where on earth are you getting those numbers from? For a start the figures are bullshit as 15% of Irish citizens own farmland (see here (http://www.feasta.org/events/landconf/landconfbrief.pdf), PDF). Secondly, the comparison with Cuba is simply stupid - you are comparing a pre-industrial colonial society, ie one in which the vast majority of the population were engaged in agriculture, to a modern urbanised society

Any concentration in agriculture in today's Ireland is the result of capitalist growth and does not indicate some sort of old landowning class. The old estate system - ie, the actual landowning class and accompanying peasant farming - was systematically dismantled by the Land Commission which established the small private farm as the basic agricultural unit in Ireland

I dont believe for one second that 15% of Irish citizens own farmland. There are 125,000 farmers in the free state. That makes up less than 3% of the free state population. Only 44,000 of these are full time farmers. These figures are from teagasc. Urbanisation is only 4% and the state owns 10% of the land - mostly roads, coastline and mountainside. That would leave 86% of the land in farmers hands (including developers landbanks, which are now collecting farm subsidies.)

Ireland is a pre-industrial society, with a few islands of FDI. The Irish native economy is based on land.

As for the old landowning class; the 1881 Land Act handed over 50% of the land of Ireland (and nearly all of the good land) to 20,000 native Irish graziers. These families have maintained their hold on this land till this day, and make up the ruling elite in the south.

[ComradeOm]

Tell me Cael, do you actually live in Ireland? Because your assertions are completely bizarre. That you can't tell the difference between modern Ireland and colonial Cuba is... odd to say the least


Ireland is a pre-industrial society, with a few islands of FDI. The Irish native economy is based on landThis is an absurd statement. Whatever the Irish economy is, and I've watched its progressive de-industrialisation with more concern than most, it is most emphatically not "pre-industrial". Less that 10% of the Irish workforce are employed in agriculture and this sector is responsible for a paltry 5% of the GNP. To argue that the Irish economy, or indeed society, is essentially agrarian in character is absolutely baseless


As for the old landowning class; the 1881 Land Act handed over 50% of the land of Ireland (and nearly all of the good land) to 20,000 native Irish graziers. These families have maintained their hold on this land till this day, and make up the ruling elite in the south.You're happily ignoring that the Land Commission continued to operate until the 1980s. Again, you are stuck in the wrong century

[Cael]

Tell me Cael, do you actually live in Ireland? Because your assertions are completely bizarre. That you can't tell the difference between modern Ireland and colonial Cuba is... odd to say the least

This is an absurd statement. Whatever the Irish economy is, and I've watched its progressive de-industrialisation with more concern than most, it is most emphatically not "pre-industrial". Less that 10% of the Irish workforce are employed in agriculture and this sector is responsible for a paltry 5% of the GNP. To argue that the Irish economy, or indeed society, is essentially agrarian in character is absolutely baseless

You're happily ignoring that the Land Commission continued to operate until the 1980s. Again, you are stuck in the wrong century

Yes I'm from a farming backround in Ireland so I know what Im talking about. You sound like a city boy that has a very romantic view of rural Ireland.

I didnt say the native Irish economy was primarily agricultural - I said it was based on land - there is a big difference. Remember that FDI accounts for 90% of exports. Take out FDI and what do you have in Ireland? You have land and the development of land, and banking services based on the development of land. Native Irish industry is tiny and weak. It has no clout at all in the corridors of power. In 2006 eleven billion euro was spent on commercial property - nine billion of that buying foreign land and buildings. In the same year just 192 million euro was made available to Irish companies as venture capital (including state sources.) In Leinster House, the landowner is king.

The land commission continued up until the 80s, but the big work was really done by the 1881 act. There were several land acts after that, but they were just about breaking up reletively small plots among small holders. The granting of 50% of the land of Ireland to just 20,000 native Irish graziers (at a time when there were still millions on the land), set the future course of Irish history till this day, and ensured Ireland remains a backward semi-feudal place, where even the trade unions have been bought, and have bought into the land scams.

[ComradeOm]

You sound like a city boy that has a very romantic view of rural IrelandI know you culchies aren't quite up to speed but its quite a feat to remain a whole century behind the rest of the country! Has your village got the electricity yet?


Take out FDI and what do you have in Ireland?And why would you do that? What relevance does foreign ownership of capital have in a discussion as to employment within the Irish economy? The only possible reason for introducing such a categorisation is to buttress your absurd assertion that "Ireland is a pre-industrial society". In short its an intellectually dishonest distinction. Its akin to saying that the vast majority of the population of this island are Protestant... if you ignore all those Catholics :rolleyes:

The reality is that when evaluating a nation's industrial base it is relatively unimportant as to whether the capitalists are native or foreign. What is important is that 95% of the Irish workforce are employed outside agriculture. Over a third of this figure are employed in manufacturing and construction alone. This is not compatible with a "pre-industrial" economy and it is ludicrous to assert that the Irish economy is still based on agriculture


In Leinster House, the landowner is kingOf course, those principled politicians are far too nationalistic to accept foreign money or to curry favour with foreign corporations. Similar to how Irish farmers shun EU grants and subsidies :rolleyes:


...ensured Ireland remains a backward semi-feudal place...There are two possibilities here. Either you lied above and are not from Ireland or you have no idea as to just what "semi-feudal" actually means. Clearly its pointless asking you so I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the former. Better to be a liar than an idiot

[Cael]

I know you culchies aren't quite up to speed but its quite a feat to remain a whole century behind the rest of the country! Has your village got the electricity yet?

And why would you do that? What relevance does foreign ownership of capital have in a discussion as to employment within the Irish economy? The only possible reason for introducing such a categorisation is to buttress your absurd assertion that "Ireland is a pre-industrial society". In short its an intellectually dishonest distinction. Its akin to saying that the vast majority of the population of this island are Protestant... if you ignore all those Catholics :rolleyes:

The reality is that when evaluating a nation's industrial base it is relatively unimportant as to whether the capitalists are native or foreign. What is important is that 95% of the Irish workforce are employed outside agriculture. Over a third of this figure are employed in manufacturing and construction alone. This is not compatible with a "pre-industrial" economy and it is ludicrous to assert that the Irish economy is still based on agriculture

Of course, those principled politicians are far too nationalistic to accept foreign money or to curry favour with foreign corporations. Similar to how Irish farmers shun EU grants and subsidies :rolleyes:

There are two possibilities here. Either you lied above and are not from Ireland or you have no idea as to just what "semi-feudal" actually means. Clearly its pointless asking you so I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the former. Better to be a liar than an idiot


More personal abuse. I see the administrators and mods on this site are either on holiday or completely incompetant. Well, if you cant beat em join em. You must be a complete fvcking feejit if you think there is no difference between FDI and native capital. I'd explain it to you, but you are obviously too thick to understand. Even capitalist commentators (and you may well be a capitalist, from the fvcked up ideas you have) agree that the disproportion beween FDI and native industry in Ireland is unsustainable. But, you know, I'm starting to get tired of trying to debate on a website were most of the posters are too thick and ignorant to have a debate without personal insults, and where the mods are too lazy and incompetant to keep any control.

[ComradeOm]

Unfortunately for you Cael, insults don't mean much when they come from someone who seriously believes that Ireland has made no economic progress in the past two centuries. Which is, frankly, an assertion so self-evidently false and absurd as to render your persistent attempts to defend it laughable

Of course the flipside to this is that I'm also an idiot for attempting to even dissuade you of this bizarre notion. Still, I'll go though this one last time


You must be a complete fvcking feejit if you think there is no difference between FDI and native capitalAnd who ever suggested that there was no difference? What I made clear in the above post is that the degree of foreign owned capital in Ireland is an irrelevancy when discussing the basic structure of the Irish economy. This is not to say that it does not exist or is not of some concern in other discussions, but with regards your particular assertion it is a complete red herring

The reality is that an industrial base is an industrial base whether foreign or native owned. It exists and it employs a large percentage of the Irish workforce (to say nothing of the tertiary sector). It did not exist a century ago but since then the Irish economy has undergone profound changes. To argue that these did not take place simply because they were driven by foreign ownership (itself a dubious simplification) just makes no sense. You are using an irrelevant distinction in order to ignore the 95% of Irish workers not engaged in agriculture! There is absolutely no reason for this - workers do not stop becoming workers simply because they work for a multinational

And if you don't like the standard of discussion on this site, well feel free to fup off, ya grasshole

[RedAnarchist]

Split the Irish land posts from the original thread.

[Cael]

And if you don't like the standard of discussion on this site, well feel free to fup off, ya grasshole


No, I dont like the standards on this site. Ignorance and insults seem to be what passes for debate, and the mods seem to be completely ineffective. This whole site is a disgrace to Socialism. Anybody comming on it to learn something about Socialism would quickly get the impression that Socialists are a gang of uneducated and undisciplined thugs.

[Random Precision]

ComradeOm, Cael, you can both consider yourselves warned for flaming. Happy now?

[pastradamus]

Ireland is a pre-industrial society, with a few islands of FDI. The Irish native economy is based on land.


No, its not. Ireland services sector is its biggest Industry - A sign of a developed nation. Developed Capitalist countries always have the services sector as its largest. Ireland is a very wealthy country compared to what it was in say the 1980's.

[pastradamus]

No, I dont like the standards on this site. Ignorance and insults seem to be what passes for debate, and the mods seem to be completely ineffective. This whole site is a disgrace to Socialism. Anybody comming on it to learn something about Socialism would quickly get the impression that Socialists are a gang of uneducated and undisciplined thugs.

Stop cribbing about the site. If you want debate start focusing on debate and not complaining about the administration of the site. If its administration you want than go to your own site. It dosent bode well when you just arrive on a site and start shunning it from the word go.

[Cael]

Stop cribbing about the site. If you want debate start focusing on debate and not complaining about the administration of the site. If its administration you want than go to your own site. It dosent bode well when you just arrive on a site and start shunning it from the word go.

Im sorry, but I have certain standards. And a site that does not ban someone for making fun of disabled people falls very far below my standards. Lots of people are doing great work on this site, but they are not being supported by the moderation team.

[Josef Balin]

And a site that does not ban someone for making fun of disabled people falls very far below my standards.
What? Stick to your shitty forums then.

The only proof that mods aren't good at their job here is that one of them actually warned ComradeOm.

[PRC-UTE]

What? Stick to your shitty forums then.

The only proof that mods aren't good at their job here is that one of them actually warned ComradeOm.

Yeah, why was ComradeOm warned?

[pastradamus]

What? Stick to your shitty forums then.

The only proof that mods aren't good at their job here is that one of them actually warned ComradeOm.

JB, nobody here was asking for an outburst like that. Take is easy on the flaming. Om was warned and accepted that warning from what I can see.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Yeah, why was ComradeOm warned?

"Either you lied above and are not from Ireland or you have no idea as to just what "semi-feudal" actually means. Clearly its pointless asking you so I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the former. Better to be a liar than an idiot." (ComradeOm)

[Jorge Miguel]

Im sorry, but I have certain standards. And a site that does not ban someone for making fun of disabled people falls very far below my standards. Lots of people are doing great work on this site, but they are not being supported by the moderation team.
loled.


Ireland is a pre-industrial societyloled even more.

[Andrei Kuznetsov]

Ireland is a pre-industrial society

Wait dude what

[Zazaban]

I'm sorry, this is one of the strangest arguments I've ever heard. Ireland is pre-industrial? What?

[Raúl Duke]

If Ireland is feudal/semi-feudal then Puerto Rico must have slavery using similiar standards :rolleyes: