There's a thin line between sexual liberalisation and...

[h0m0revolutionary]

organised peadophilia.

Hamas have recently illustrated their preference for the latter:
http://www.equal-rights-now.com/Akhbar/hemaseh%20ee%20digar%20az%20hemas%20sample........ .........htm

This is the "marriage" of 450 children, aged 6-10 to men aged from 16 to 36!

Another reason not to cuddle up to reactionary, anti-left forces like Hamas.

[Rascolnikova]

Let's be fair.

"Marriage" in a circumstance like this means something very different from the term used in the context of western cultures. Oppressive, evil, incredibly disturbing? Absolutely.

Organized pedophilia? Well, since pedophilia refers to a condition in which one's primary sexual attraction is to children, and most of these men--based on my cultural understanding--will be sleeping around with prostitutes for several years before taking their (then teenage) bride's virginity and imparting whatever diseases they've picked up--I'm gonna say no, that doesn't sound like pedophilia to me.

Let's also remember that "teenager" over most of the world is the same as "young adult."

[cb9's_unity]

The things that people can get away with in ultra-religious countries is horrifying.

This is certainly a good case where the enemy of our enemy is certainly not our friend.

[Jorge Miguel]

Yeah, lets bomb the ragheads.

THEY TOOK AR JABBSSS

[Jorge Miguel]

So here's where the logic of anarchism falls to pieces.

How can there be full sexual liberation and not give pedophiles rights?

[Pogue]

So here's where the logic of anarchism falls to pieces.

How can there be full sexual liberation and not give pedophiles rights?

I don't understand what your talking about. Sexual liberalisation never calls for sexual abuse such as phaedophilia. The same way 'full sexual lbieralisation' doesn't mean we can rape, for example.

[Jorge Miguel]

Then how is it dealt with it in a proposed anarchist society?

[Pogue]

Then how is it dealt with it in a proposed anarchist society?

What, phaedophilia, rape, etc?

[F9]

So here's where the logic of anarchism falls to pieces.

How can there be full sexual liberation and not give pedophiles rights?

omg...
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/facepalm.jpg

Do you understand what you are saying?Or do you have any absolute idea what you are talking about?The possibilities are 2, maybe 3. One is you support pedophilia, second, you dont support communism, or three you have absolute no idea what you are talking about and you just thought to accuse anarkkkism out of no where..
I just hope isnt the first....

[khad]

Do you understand what you are saying?Or do you have any absolute idea what you are talking about?The possibilities are 2, maybe 3. One is you support pedophilia, second, you dont support communism, or three you have absolute no idea what you are talking about and you just thought to accuse anarkkkism out of no where..
I just hope isnt the first....
Or 4, he's been reading too much Hakim Bey.

[Jorge Miguel]

No, I don't support pedophilia. But I dont see how Anarchism can provide this "sexual liberation", when it's an excuse for the likes of pedophilia and god knows what else. Infact, some Anarchist bookshops in the US used to stock pedophile material.

[Pogue]

No, I don't support pedophilia. But I dont see how Anarchism can provide this "sexual liberation", when it's an excuse for the likes of pedophilia and god knows what else. Infact, some Anarchist bookshops in the US used to stock pedophile material.

But its not an excuse for phaedophilia. There is no part of anarchism which supports phaedophilia. Its simply not part of our ideology. Some people might call themselves anarchists and also support it, the same way some people call themselves Bolsheviks and despise immigrants (National Bolsheviks), etc.

[Sarah Palin]

A Texas Zionist Polygamist sect claimed "Sexual liberation" whilst marrying children to middle aged men. http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSN0731079920080408

[The Ungovernable Farce]

So here's where the logic of anarchism falls to pieces.

How can there be full sexual liberation and not give pedophiles rights?
How can there be full sexual liberation if children don't have the right to avoid being abused?

[La Comédie Noire]

If they were young kids who had hit puberty and were homosexual and consenting I'd have no problem with this.


Then how is it dealt with it in a proposed anarchist society? Well first of all they'd be kept away from prepubescent children, second they could attend therapy if they voluntarily consented to it.

As for "punishment" that would probably depend on the commune they lived in. Some will prefer exile, others may just execute them.



No, I don't support pedophilia. But I dont see how Anarchism can provide this "sexual liberation", when it's an excuse for the likes of pedophilia and god knows what else.Well I definitely don't support pedophilia, but the "god knows what else" intrigues me. Care to elaborate?

[Jorge Miguel]

How can there be full sexual liberation if children don't have the right to avoid being abused?
But how do you prevent that abuse happening in this utopian Anarchist society, I asked this at the start of the thread and received no answer.

Regardless, Gaza is under constant threat from the Israelis and 3000 civilians were murdered in January. If anyone thinks sexual liberation of any hue is the primary contradiction then I'd like to hear why.

[Jorge Miguel]

Well first of all they'd be kept away from prepubescent children, second they could attend therapy if they voluntarily consented to it. How would it be impleted that they would be "kept away"? Prison? Or would everyone else with children have to live in fear of pedophiles.


Some will prefer exile:rolleyes:
http://www.nndb.com/people/600/000022534/gglitter-yipes.jpg

[La Comédie Noire]

How would it be implemented that they would be "kept away"? Prison? Or would everyone else with children have to live in fear of pedophiles.

You know, it's funny my parents never lived in fear of pedophiles and I never once was molested. As you may or may not know, most children are molested by people they know (friends of the family, relatives ect.) You've seem to have soaked in all the media hysteria about kid rapists being at every turn, not surprising.

As for how they're kept away from children, they'd simply not be allowed to have jobs near children or live around children. I don't see why we'd need jails, police, and courts (which even the main stream media admits is ineffective) as you seem to want.

But no seriously, the "god knows what else" is on my mind, what else do you find to be sexually unacceptable behavior?

May I suggest you are a closet conservative?

[Pogue]

How would it be impleted that they would be "kept away"? Prison? Or would everyone else with children have to live in fear of pedophiles.

:rolleyes:
http://www.nndb.com/people/600/000022534/gglitter-yipes.jpg

They would be kept away by whatever we have to replace what is today called the police. I am not opposed to secure facilities for dangerous people either. I think your arguing from a position of ignorance on anarchism.

[nuisance]

Yes, Jorge, anarchists advocate a society void of any organisational structure despite writing endless reams contradictory to that sentiment. You really need to read something or just fuck off out of here with your dodgy unsubstantiated ramblings.

[Blackscare]

Jorge Miguel, just because you saw one other post with a pointless picture, doesn't mean this forum is some place for you to post idiotic bullshit pictures when you have nothing intelligent to say. Keep up with your stupid spam posts and I'll personally start the (inevitable) thread concerning administrative action towards you.

[n0thing]

So here's where the logic of anarchism falls to pieces.

How can there be full sexual liberation and not give pedophiles rights?
The right to fuck kids?

It hurts to think you believe there is sense in the shit you write

[The Ungovernable Farce]

If anyone thinks sexual liberation of any hue is the primary contradiction then I'd like to hear why.
I imagine that if I was a young child aged 6-10 married to a grown man aged 16-36, then my liberation from that situation probably would be among my primary concerns.

[PRC-UTE]

I imagine that if I was a young child aged 6-10 married to a grown man aged 16-36, then my liberation from that situation probably would be among my primary concerns.

More of a concern than eating and not being murdered by the imperialists?

[PRC-UTE]

May I suggest you are a closet conservative?

hahahaha

ad hominem ftw :cool:

[Jorge Miguel]

Even if intercourse does not take place until a later stage as another poster suggested, these marriages are indeed still disgusting and abusive. Children of this age can obviously have no serious comprehension of what is occuring and as a result have no input into the decision which seamingly is made on their behalf.

(Some) Anarchists on the other hand have argued for abolishing the age of consent in their invisioned "sexually liberated" society. They can not have it both ways. You are either for protecting children or for thinly disguised pedophilia. If we are all "liberated" then what mechanisms exist for preventing child abuse, if the age of consent has also been abolished?

While there are cases of the law punishing people for statutory rape with only a year or so difference, overwhelmingly the age of consent protects more people than it harms.

Subjectively, we immediatly repulse at these sort of marriages - if the word can even be streched to apply to these. And quite rightfully. But there are greater issues than the marriages themselves. The OP has posted it as a reason not to support Hamas.

The Palestinian people as a whole are denied an existance. Ethnic cleansing is occuring daily, through settlements, outright murder, paying Palestinians to leave "Israeli" cities and so on. According to some reports, hunger and diesease are widespread in Gaza, these marriages may possibly be a way for families to alleviate fianancial burden. In this case, blame lays squarely at the hands of the Israelis, EU and international capital who have Gaza under sanction, not Hamas.

What forces are resisting the genocidal actions of Israeli chauvinists? It certainly isn't the left communists or anarchists.

[PRC-UTE]

Let's be fair.

"Marriage" in a circumstance like this means something very different from the term used in the context of western cultures. Oppressive, evil, incredibly disturbing? Absolutely.

Organized pedophilia? Well, since pedophilia refers to a condition in which one's primary sexual attraction is to children, and most of these men--based on my cultural understanding--will be sleeping around with prostitutes for several years before taking their (then teenage) bride's virginity and imparting whatever diseases they've picked up--I'm gonna say no, that doesn't sound like pedophilia to me.

Let's also remember that "teenager" over most of the world is the same as "young adult."

That's a very well written post.

This whole thing is very disturbing and gross. Clearly this practice needs to end. But it's hard to see how that will happen while they're under siege. I think this is a good reminder of why the Left should support the PFLP, no matter how imperfect they may be so that they have a chance of providing political leadership in Palestine.

[La Comédie Noire]

(Some) Anarchists on the other hand have argued for abolishing the age of consent in their envisioned "sexually liberated" society. They can not have it both ways. You are either for protecting children or for thinly disguised pedophilia. If we are all "liberated" then what mechanisms exist for preventing child abuse, if the age of consent has also been abolished?

Well what's your definition of children? 15? 14? How about "no sex with prepubescent individuals"? When I was 14 the only protection I needed from sex was Trojan condoms. I knew what was welcomed and what wasn't, I could think for myself.

Instead of installing "mechanisms" to prevent children from getting raped, why not teach them to think for themselves? In Capitalist society the family structure is a form of economic survival. Therefore, it makes it hard for a kid who has been abused to get away. When I was a kid I used to get beaten quite a lot by my mother and whenever I'd think of calling the cops or trying to get out of there I'd always think how horrible it would be to be on my own. Images of state facilities, gruel, and begging on the streets came to mind. But in a society where everyone is provided for and people are encouraged to think for themselves at a very early age, why should that happen?

Has it occurred to you kids can protect themselves?



While there are cases of the law punishing people for statutory rape with only a year or so difference, overwhelmingly the age of consent protects more people than it harms.

You act as though the only thing standing between kids and rapists is an age of consent. Not true.

http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=14164614


The OP has posted it as a reason not to support Hamas.

You're the one who seems to be bothered by this the most.

[Jorge Miguel]

Well what's your definition of children? 15? 14? How about "no sex with prepubescent individuals"?How can this be implemented?

People reach different levels of maturity at different ages.

This "prepubescent individuals" argument is a cop-out. At the ages of 11-13, etc, how can other members of society know who is a "prepubescent individual" without knowing? Crazy.

What about those who have reached puberty but are still in a state of immaturity?


You act as though the only thing standing between kids and rapists is an age of consent. Not true.Unfortunatly my local anarchist commune doesn't have an "execution policy". The law is the only action of recourse for many victims.



Instead of installing "mechanisms" to prevent children from getting raped, why not teach them to think for themselves? In Capitalist society the family structure is a form of economic survival. Therefore, it makes it hard for a kid who has been abused to get away. When I was a kid I used to get beaten quite a lot by my mother and whenever I'd think of calling the cops or trying to get out of there I'd always think how horrible it would be to be on my own. Images of state facilities, gruel, and begging on the streets came to mind. But in a society where everyone is provided for and people are encouraged to think for themselves at a very early age, why should that happen?Rape and molestation victims must learn to "think" for themselves? :rolleyes:


You're the one who seems to be bothered by this the most. Because it's bullshit. It's not a reason to not support Hamas and considering it's seamingly "consensual", I'd thought your lot would support it.

[Saorsa]

I think this is a good reminder of why the Left should support the PFLP, no matter how imperfect they may be so that they have a chance of providing political leadership in Palestine.

On that note...

http://wpnz-pflp-solidarity.blogspot.com/

Order a "Resistance is Not Terrorism" t-shirt and all the proceeds from it (about $15 I believe) go directly to the PFLP to help fund their struggle. Keep in mind may be illegal in some countries, probably worth checking... We've had orders from places as far flung as Germany, Sweden and Argentina, so geography's no barrier.

[La Comédie Noire]

How can this be implemented?

People reach different levels of maturity at different ages.

This "prepubescent individuals" argument is a cop-out. At the ages of 11-13, etc, how can other members of society know who is a "prepubescent individual" without knowing? Crazy.

What about those who have reached puberty but are still in a state of immaturity?


Well since sex is the act of two consenting individuals and you don't begin wanting/thinking of sex until puberty, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that when one wants sex it is okay for them to have sex?


Unfortunately my local anarchist commune doesn't have an "execution policy". The law is the only action of recourse for many victims.


ONE day in 1996 the lights went off in a classroom in Georgia so that the students could watch a video. Wendy Whitaker, a 17-year-old pupil at the time, was sitting near the back. The boy next to her suggested that, since it was dark, she could perform oral sex on him without anyone noticing. She obliged. And that single teenage fumble wrecked her life.
Her classmate was three weeks shy of his 16th birthday.

That made Ms Whitaker a criminal.


Yeah scum like Wendy Whititaker shouldn't be allowed to walk the streets! Do you think the court asked the 16 year old how he felt about it?


Rape and molestation victims must learn to "think" for themselves? :rolleyes:

If you study cases where children have been molested by adults, the overwhelming majority of which are relatives or family friends, the children do not tell anybody because they are afraid of getting in trouble. Perhaps if they were taught that their thoughts and feelings didn't take a back seat to adult authority this wouldn't happen.

Or are they too "immature" to do that?


Because it's bullshit. It's not a reason to support Hamas and considering it's seamingly "consensual", I'd thought your lot would support it.

I said:



If they were young kids who had hit puberty and were homosexual and consenting I'd have no problem with this.

[F9]

More of a concern than eating and not being murdered by the imperialists?

So to make it clear to me, its ok for a 40 year old male or female raping, and having sexual relations with a kid, who cant understand whats going on, and the only thing s/he has to do is feed them and kill the damn amerikkkans?And that would be ok? Makes perfect sense to me...not!

So what i alwasy get from all you "anti-imperialists" is, anti-imperialism comes first, and everything else dont matters.You only need to be anti-imperialist and everything else might considered reactionary is "deleted".

Jorge Miquel, are you aware that Anarchism is after Communism?So this "utopian" situation you are talking about is indeed communism.Or you arent a communist, really?

[PRC-UTE]

So to make it clear to me, its ok for a 40 year old male or female raping, and having sexual relations with a kid, who cant understand whats going on, and the only thing s/he has to do is feed them and kill the damn amerikkkans?And that would be ok? Makes perfect sense to me...not!

So what i alwasy get from all you "anti-imperialists" is, anti-imperialism comes first, and everything else dont matters.You only need to be anti-imperialist and everything else might considered reactionary is "deleted".

Jorge Miquel, are you aware that Anarchism is after Communism?So this "utopian" situation you are talking about is indeed communism.Or you arent a communist, really?

What an embarrassing post.

I think you need to go read what I wrote after the first post in this thread. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't read my other posts, rather than question your honesty.

I even suggested a way to end this, throwing out the idea that leftists around the world should support the PFLP as they would have a chance at ending a practice that I described as disturbing.

What's your suggestion for ending this?

And yes, survival does come first obviously. You cant' reform the practices of a society after it's destroyed.

[F9]

What an embarrassing post.

I think you need to go read what I wrote after the first post in this thread. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't read my other posts, rather than question your honesty.

I even suggested a way to end this, throwing out the idea that leftists around the world should support the PFLP as they would have a chance at ending a practice that I described as disturbing.

What's your suggestion for ending this?

And yes, survival does come first obviously. You cant' reform the practices of a society after it's destroyed.

No, i really didnt read most of this thread posts, but my post was basically a general post on the way that i cant understand how anti-imperialism gets over anything, even reactionary things.. and Anarchism gets accused for not overall sexual liberation:rolleyes: and that Anarchism supports pedophilia because an old idiot wrote something ages ago...
My suggestion? Leave the kids alone, and put in those idiotic minds that they cant mary small childrens..Maybe?

[PRC-UTE]

No, i really didnt read most of this thread posts, but my post was basically a general post on the way that i cant understand how anti-imperialism gets over anything, even reactionary things.. and Anarchism gets accused for not overall sexual liberation:rolleyes: and that Anarchism supports pedophilia because an old idiot wrote something ages ago...
My suggestion? Leave the kids alone, and put in those idiotic minds that they cant mary small childrens..Maybe?

The reality is that many lefties support adults having sex with children. Need I even mention how many ridiculous discussions have taken place on this site regarding that topic. Outside the internets I know of the Sparts and others taking that position. It's unfortunately not a problem confined to anarchism as has been mistakenly suggested in this very confused thread.

I've seen many other anti-imperialists taking a pretty strong stand against child sex, khad being a notable example, as a part of their anti-imperialist views.

So really I think this tiresome attempt to smear all anti-imperialists (and likewise all anarchists) is childish and doing a dis-service to this forum.

[Small Geezer]

they'd simply not be allowed to have jobs near children or live around children.


They'd be deported to an adult only paedophile commune.

[scarletghoul]

I trust this pædophile commune would have adequate recreational facilities to enrich the residents' lives?

it is authoritarian and coercive to restrict the freedom of a pædophile to fuck a child.

What about the freedom of pædophile to masturbate whilst watching a child? he does not harm the child but he is objectifying him, treating him as nothing more than a toy or woman.

its situations like this when we need some kind of authority to prevent nasty shit happening or fermenting

[Small Geezer]

I trust this pædophile commune would have adequate recreational facilities to enrich the residents' lives?


Yeah definately. There'd be heaps of kiddie porn and mini dildos to remind them of the good old days.

[bcbm]

I trust this pædophile commune would have adequate recreational facilities to enrich the residents' lives?

it is authoritarian and coercive to restrict the freedom of a pædophile to fuck a child.

What about the freedom of pædophile to masturbate whilst watching a child? he does not harm the child but he is objectifying him, treating him as nothing more than a toy or woman.

its situations like this when we need some kind of authority to prevent nasty shit happening or fermenting

Where the fuck do you people come from?

This whole thread, from all sides, is fucking pathetic.

[Pogue]

I trust this pædophile commune would have adequate recreational facilities to enrich the residents' lives?

it is authoritarian and coercive to restrict the freedom of a pædophile to fuck a child.

What about the freedom of pædophile to masturbate whilst watching a child? he does not harm the child but he is objectifying him, treating him as nothing more than a toy or woman.

its situations like this when we need some kind of authority to prevent nasty shit happening or fermenting

Surely as a communist this is the sort of issue you'd have to deal with too? How do you propose we deal with paedophiles in a communist society?

[Saorsa]

How do you propose we deal with paedophiles in a communist society?

A pair of very sharp scissors.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Those denouncing Anarchism for these ridiculous claims have completely no understanding of it. Are you people saying you do not want Sexual liberalisation? It would be anti-communist for current relations to continue into a revolutionary society.

[Luís Henrique]

I am impressed by the amount of sheer stupidity in this thread. "Leninists" who seem to believe the transitional workers' State is justified not by the need to suppress the bourgeoisie, but by the need to repress pedophiles. Anarchists who believe in castrating people as a mode of punishment. Leftists who support barbaric precapitalist penal procedures, and/or believe there are going to be isolated "communes" in a postcapitalist society - some of them, apparently, with penal purposes.

Everybody, except Raskolnikova, taking for granted that "marriage" means 'immediate honeymoon'.

Good grief.

Thankfully, the most stupid thing here, at least, isn't by one of us, but by the American judicial system:


ONE day in 1996 the lights went off in a classroom in Georgia so that the students could watch a video. Wendy Whitaker, a 17-year-old pupil at the time, was sitting near the back. The boy next to her suggested that, since it was dark, she could perform oral sex on him without anyone noticing. She obliged. And that single teenage fumble wrecked her life.
Her classmate was three weeks shy of his 16th birthday.

That made Ms Whitaker a criminal.Is there really a law that forbids American justices to use freaking good sence when sentencing?

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

Is there really a law that forbids American justices to use freaking good sence when sentencing?

Having read a little bit more on the case, I am forced to ask two more questions:

1. Is there a law that forces State Attorneys to seek convictions, even if they are not personally convinced of guilt?

2. Is there a law that only allows completely incompetent idiots to act as defence attorneys?

Luís Henrique

[Hit The North]

I am impressed by the amount of sheer stupidity in this thread.

Luís Henrique

Indeed. And you're not easily impressed!