Log in

View Full Version : Hitler WAS a Conservative Republican



heiss93
16th August 2009, 23:52
The book Liberal Fascism is proof of how disoriented the American political compass is. Only in America is liberalism considered far left. And since fascism=far-left=liberalism.

But in fact Hitler was a conservative republican. And not just "right-wing". From this 1942 conversation published in Table Talk he sounds like a Ron Paul, Glen Beck libertarian bemoaning the good ol constitutional republic of the founders, with its protections from mob rule.

The Nazi theory of state has more in common with Thomas Jefferson than Vladmir Lenin.




Nepotism, in fact, is the most formidable protection imaginable : the protection of the ego. But wherever it has appeared in the life of a State—the monarchies are the best proof—it has resulted in weakening and decay. Reason : it puts an end to the principle of effort. In this respect, Frederick the Great showed himself superior to Napoleon—Frederick who, at the most difficult moments of his life, and when he had to take the hardest decisions, never forgot that things are called upon to endure. In similar cases, Napoleon capitulated. It's therefore obvious that, to bring his life's work to a successful conclusion, Frederick the Great could always rely on sturdier collaborators than Napoleon could. When Napoleon set the interests of his family clique above all, Frederick the Great looked around him for men, and, at need, trained them himself.

Despite all Napoleon's genius, Frederick the Great was the most outstanding man of the eighteenth century. When seeking to find a solution for essential problems concerning the conduct of affairs of State, he refrained from all illogicality. It must be recognised that in this field his father, Frederick-William, that buffalo of a man, had given him a solid and complete training. Peter the Great, too, clearly saw the necessity for eliminating the family spirit from public life. In a letter to his son—a letter I was re-reading recently—he informs him very clearly of his intention to disinherit him and exclude him from the succession to the throne. It would be too lamentable, he writes, to set one day at the head of Russia a son who does not prepare himself for State affairs with the utmost energy, who does not harden his will and strengthen himself physically.

Setting the best man at the head of the State—that's the most difficult problem in the world to solve.

In a republic in which the whole people is called upon to elect the chief of the State, it's possible, with money and publicity, to bring the meagrest of puppets to power.

In a republic in which the reins of power are in the hands of a clique made up of a few families, the State takes on the aspect of a trust, in which the shareholders have an interest in electing a weakling as President, so that they may play an important part themselves.

A hereditary monarchy is a biological blunder, for a man of action regularly chooses a wife with essentially feminine qualities, and the son inherits his mother's mildness and passive disposition.

In a republic that sets at its head a chief elected for life, there's the risk that he will pursue a policy of personal selfinterest.

In a republic where the Chief of State changes every five or ten years, the stability of the government is never assured, and the execution of long-term plans, exceeding the duration of a lifetime, is thereby compromised.

If one sets at the head of the State an old man who has with-drawn from all worldly considerations, he is only a puppet, and inevitably it's other men who rule in his name.

Thinking over all that, I've arrived at the following conclusions :

1. The chances of not setting a complete idiot at the head of the State are better under the system of free elections than in the opposite case. The giants who were the elected German Emperors are the best proof of this. There was not one of them of whom it can truly be said that he was an imbecile. In the hereditary monarchies, on the other hand, there were at least eight kings out of ten who, if they'd been ordinary citizens, would not have been capable of successfully running a grocery.

2. In choosing a Chief of State, one must call upon a personality who, as far as human beings can judge, guarantees a certain stability in the exercise of power for a longish while. This is a necessary condition, not only so that public affairs can be successfully administered, but in order to make possible the realisation of great projects.

3. Care must be taken that the Chief of State will not succumb to the influence of the plutocracy, and cannot be forced to certain decisions by any pressure of that sort. That's why it's important that he should be supported by a political organisation whose strength has its roots in the people, and which can have the upper hand over private interests.

In the course of history, two constitutions have proved themselves :

(a) The papacy, despite numerous crises—the gravest of which, as it happens, were settled by German emperors—and although it is based on a literally crazy doctrine. But as an organisation on the material level, the Church is a magnificent edifice.

(b) The constitution of Venice, which, thanks to the organisation of its Government, enabled a little city-republic to rule the whole eastern Mediterranean. The constitution of Venice proved itself effective as long as the Venetian Republic endured—that is to say, for nine hundred and sixty years. The fact that the Head of the Republic of Venice was chosen from amongst the families who composed the framework of the State (numbering between three hundred and five hundred) was not a bad thing. Thus power was allotted to the best man amongst the representatives of those families who were traditionally linked with the State. The difference between this system and that of hereditary monarchy is obvious. In the former, it was impossible for an imbecile or an urchin of twelve to come to power. Only a man who had pretty well proved himself in life had a fair chance of being appointed. Isn't it ridiculous, by the way, to think that a child of twelve, or even of eighteen, can rule a State? It goes without saying that, if a king is still a minor, power is provisionally gathered in other hands, those of a Council of Regents. But supposing the members of this Council disagree (and the more competent the councillors are, the greater are the risks of disagreement, in view of the complexity of the problems to be solved daily), then the absence is felt of the personality capable of taking a sovereign decision. A youth of eighteen cannot take a decision that requires deep reflection—that's difficult enough for a man who has reached full maturity! It's enough to imagine where King Michael of Rumania would be without the support of a man as remarkable as Field-Marshal Antonescu. As it happens, the young man is stupid. Moreover, he has been rotted by his spoilt child's upbringing, his father having entrusted him entirely to women during the most important period of his development. To sense the tragic nature of this abyss, it's enough to compare the development of any man who's ambitious to do something in life, with that of a prince by inheritance. Think of the amount of knowledge that a man of normal rank must acquire, of the desperate work he must do, without truce or rest, to succeed in having his own way. There is a tendency to believe, on the contrary, that one can prepare budding kings for the task that awaits them by keeping them amused. A third of their time is devoted to the study of foreign languages, so that they may be able to utter trivialities in several tongues; a second third to the sports of society (riding, tennis, etc.). The study of the political sciences takes only the last place. Moreover, the education they receive has no firmness. Their tutors are weakness itself. They resist the temptation to distribute the smacks their princely pupils deserve—for fear of calling down the disfavour of a future monarch. The result is obvious. That's how creatures like Michael of Rumania and Peter of Yugoslavia were formed.

As regards the government of Germany, I've come to the following conclusions:

1. The Reich must be a republic, having at its head an elected chief who shall be endowed with an absolute authority.

2. An agency representing the people must, nevertheless, exist by way of corrective. Its role is to support the Chief of State, but it must be able to intervene in case of need.

3. The task of choosing the Chief shall be entrusted, not to the people's assembly, but to a Senate. It is, however, important that the powers of the Senate shall be limited. Its composition must not be permanent. Moreover, its members shall be appointed with reference to their occupation and not individuals. These Senators must, by their training, be steeped in the idea that power may in no case be delegated to a weakling, and that the elected Fuehrer must always be the best man.

4. The election of the Chief must not take place in public, but in camera. On the occasion of the election of a pope, the people does not know what is happening behind the scenes. A case is reported in which the cardinals exchanged blows. Since then, the cardinals have been deprived of all contact with the outside world, for the duration of the conclave! This is a principle that is also to be observed for the election of the Fuehrer: all conversation with the electors will be forbidden throughout operations.

5. The Party, the Army and the body of officials must take an oath of allegiance to the new Chief within the three hours following the election.

6. The most rigorous separation between the legislative and executive organs of the State must be the supreme law for the new Chief. Just as, in the Party, the SA and the SS are merely the sword to which is entrusted the carrying-out of the decisions taken by the competent organs, in the same way the executive agents of the State are not to concern themselves with politics. They must confine themselves exclusively to ensuring the application of laws issued by the legislative power, making appeal to the sword, in case of need. Although a State founded on such principles can lay no claim to eternity, it might last for eight to nine centuries. The thousand-year-old organisation of the Church is a proof of this—and yet this entire organisation is founded on nonsense. What I have said should a fortiori be true of an organisation founded on reason.

(Table Talk (http://www.scribd.com/doc/6323205/hitlers-table-talk), 3rd March 1942, at dinner)

IcarusAngel
17th August 2009, 04:31
Well, thanks for providing some quotes that get to the heart of the issue. I would even recommend Naomi Wolfe's lecture on this: it can be found on free documentary websites. It's "The end of America." Although it's liberal, it shows conservatives act more like Nazis than liberals.

The myth that fascists had liberal economics is one of the worst of all: they had capitalist/corporatist/Reagan economics. They used government to back corporatiosn.

Even most socialists sit there like dummies when conservatives make the claim that Nazis were leftists. This has allowed it to spread.

That said, I would disagree that Nazis were like the founding fathers lol. It was more extreme capitalism than anything, or capitalism in decline as Lenin put it, hyped up to radically speed up the economy and destroy all oppostion to the corporations -- that is why socialists were among the political prisoners killed.

Die Rote Fahne
17th August 2009, 04:46
TO break it down simply. Look at his social policies. Do they agree with social liberals? No.

Look at his economic policies. Do they agree more with Marxists or capitalists? Capitalists.

Sam_b
17th August 2009, 05:39
That means absolutely nothing. The point is conservativism and fascism are two very distinct ideologies which may on some cases overlap, but have wildly different historical and theoretical differences. By comparing the two again the left dilutes the meaning and utterly confuses the methods on how to combat it.

Hitler was not a conservative republican. He was a fascist, simple as.

Jimmie Higgins
17th August 2009, 06:02
Right on Sam B. And now for my silly additions...

For the right-wing: The whole Hitler was a leftist (because he was a vegetarian I guess) propaganda is rubbish. The American ruling class has tried to conflate Stalinist dictatorships with Fascist dictatorships - Bush said that the 20th century was a fight of Democracy (the US) against authoritarianism (first WWII and then the Cold War). This is utter BS and kind of funny considering one of the reasons people were Blacklisted was for supporting anti-Nazi protests before the US officially declared war on Germany. It was too "left-wing" to actively oppose Hitler before 1942.

For the left-wing: Calling any capitalist right-winger a NAZI is actually a recipe for complacency. If Bush is a fascist, why wouldn't you vote for John Kerry (well if he was really a fascist, you wouldn't have that option for one)? If Bush was really a fascist, I would definitely want to have a common opposition with anyone including liberals.

On the other hand, talk radio is filled with many people I might consider to have some very fascist ideas so I can see how Americans might confuse the right-wing of capitalism with fascism. Glen Beck, for example, attacks big business (for hurting the middle class) as well as unions, Muslims, and immigrants and denounces ACORN and Obama as "Socialist". If he was elected and brought the Minutemen and some militia groups into the government - yeah that would be fascism in the US.

ChrisK
17th August 2009, 06:09
Fascism could be more accurately described as a form of bonapartism. The ruling class had been all but destroyed in WWI and the working class was crushed after the failed revolution. Hitler stepped in gave a some small concessions to the working class such as those described in that dumb book Liberal Fascism. He also was the saving grace of capitalism by doing his national socialism thing by nationalizing many industries (in the same vein as Louis Napoleon and Bismark). Therefore, with his autonomized state that stood outside of the socioeconomic realm and balanced the two classes against eachother. After WWII the bonepartist regime collapsed and the ruling class took its old positition of power.

IcarusAngel
17th August 2009, 06:22
Hitler generally supported corporate capitalism and social values. The Nazis spying programs were almost identically named to those that exist in the US under Bush, this is proven in The end of America. The Nazis made it more difficult to have fair and balanced media, and much work and parody has been based off this, like Vonnegut's Mother Knight. The Nazis also made access to education at the collegiate level more difficult.

The Nazis also believed in common sense over science, tradition of reason. This was the basis that conservatism grew out of - opposition to advancements in the Enlightenment, and rationalism.

That is also why so many scientists from that era who despised the Nazi techniques of labeling varying sciences "Jewish science" etc. took the complete opposite view and promoted democracy and freedom, and acceptance of all views in accordance with enlightenment values, like Albert Einstein, Max Born, Bertrand Russell, and so on.

Both Nazis and fascists actaully DECREASED taxes on the wealth, and opened up markets by privatizing public resources. They sold off much public infastructure and research to private corporations.

Political scientists make comparisons all the time. It is how they help determine differences and similarites between systems. Hitler's authoritarianism was far closer to Stalinism than it was to anything America had, but his economy absolutely did have capitalism as its backbone, whereas a country like the USSR did not.

Dimentio
17th August 2009, 08:50
The book Liberal Fascism is proof of how disoriented the American political compass is. Only in America is liberalism considered far left. And since fascism=far-left=liberalism.

But in fact Hitler was a conservative republican. And not just "right-wing". From this 1942 conversation published in Table Talk he sounds like a Ron Paul, Glen Beck libertarian bemoaning the good ol constitutional republic of the founders, with its protections from mob rule.

The Nazi theory of state has more in common with Thomas Jefferson than Vladmir Lenin.

Given that Hitler's ideals changed every ten minutes, it is impossible to label him as something other at all really, except maybe a disturbed individual with great charisma.

One moment, he hailed the race laws of America, the next one he called America a degenerated filthy nation of would-be-mongrels.

One moment, he wanted nationalisation and socialism. The next, he claimed the racial superiority of the capitalists.

That he could change his opinions so swiftly was that they changed with his mood, and that he really did not have education or class conciousness. The guy lived in the operas of Wagner.

That is what made Hitler the ideal demagogue. I am buying into Bullock's theory that he believed in what he said while he was saying it. But Hitler was not a serious ideologist like Karl Marx or John Locke. I don't think he conciously represented any class interests, except maybe those of the petty-bourgeois misfits.

Hitler did not reach his conclusions rationally or logically, but emotionally. In a one-on-one debate, he did not argument but simply steamroll over his opposition, if necessary becoming exalted and upset.

Read the Hitler biography of Kubizek, Adolf's only adolescent friend. While Kubizek is sympathetic to Hitler as a person, it stands evidently clear that Hitler was deeply troubled.

It is a myth that fascism and nazism are the same ideology. Certainly, nazism borrowed the outer forms of fascism. But fascism was class-concious in the sense that it tried to become a negation of class struggle. Mussolini was a political merchant, who after being thrown out of the socialist party turned coats and became an enemy of the socialists out of opportunistic reasons. If the situation might have been different, Mussolini could have become the prime minister of Italy as a socialist. Nazism borrowed the opportunism from fascism, but has a core of new age shit, racialism and the ramblings of what most likely was a quite insane person at its centre.

One of the reasons why books about the Third Reich are so popular, apart from the liberal need to have a devil ("if you do not obey us, Hitler/Stalin will come back to power"), is that the Third Reich cannot be understood so simply. Hitler was not an almighty god, but neither was German capital. I would say a sufficient analogy from popular culture would be Gotham with the Joker as mayor.

That Hitler could come to power is really strange, and that could be explained by the class situation in Germany and the very unique historical situation in that country. Certainly people of Hitler's caliber do exist today, but - quite gratefully I might add - history will probablhy judge them to a life in angry but harmless obscurity at the internets.

Demogorgon
17th August 2009, 11:46
Dimentio makes some interesting points, though I think one needs to look a bit further into the Nazi hierarchy to see what they were up to ideologically. Hitler was a raving lunatic but a lot of the people around him were anything but. Many of them had their own particular agendas that they hoped to push Nazism towards and either genuinely believed in the rest of it or were simply happy to use it to get what they wanted. At its core Nazism was anti-semitic, nationalistic and militaristic but it had plenty of room for expansion, particularly before it came to power and became constrained with the need to govern and therefore the need for a particular set of policies.

Initially you had a number of competing outlooks, unified by nationalism but with obviously different agendas. You had the sort of perverted socialism of Rohm who thought that a powerful Jew-free Germany would be the ideal ground for worker empowerment. On the other hand you had the desires of the Nazis big financial backers who wanted extremely business friendly policies and of course you had the more conventionally fascist thinkers who liked Mussolini's corporativism (which incidentally is not corporatism as such, but rather a means to lock down the class system and stop class struggle) and saw that as a means to maintain hierarchy.

Of course once the Nazis came to power Rohm was bumped off to please the financial backers and the economic policies that followed (largely administered by Weimar era Conservatives rather than Nazis) were business friendly policies with a bit of Italian-style fascism (strength through joy and the like) thrown in for good measure. Goodness only knows what Hitler saw as the final form of economic system if he had any idea at all, but the Nazi hierarchy knew fine well that they were utterly dependent on big business and determined their policies accordingly.

heiss93
17th August 2009, 18:18
I think the quoted passage shows that Hitler was in words at least as much a classical republican, so admired by the Founding Fathers, as he was a "socialist". His description of his ideal Reich is almost word for word the aristocratic republic of the founding fathers. He claimed he supported an aristocratic republic like Venice, with a weak people's assembly, and an appointed senate that elected the Fuhrer. He also claimed to support a strict separation between executive and legislative branches, and military role in politics. Hitler's "republic" is the ideal balanced republic today's freedom loving conservatives want to restore.

The libertarian compass draws a false dichotomy between rightwing "freedom" and leftwing socialist tyranny. The main point of that passage is that Hitler was not only right-wing he was for right-wing "freedom".

I'm not saying Hitler was in reality a "conservative republican". But if Hayek is going to throw around false quotes by Hitler saying Marxism=Nazism, than we should answer them with REAL quotes that say Hitlerism=Constitutional Republicanism.

Slapstiq
17th August 2009, 18:28
Hitler was a loon, neither truly left nor right, but both sides try and attribute him to the other. Atheists and theists do the same thing.

As for him embracing right-libertarianism...


In the 1933 Election campaign, Hitler had promised that if he gained power he would abolish unemployment.

[...]

These policies often involved taking away certain freedoms from employers. The government banned the introduction of some labour-saving machinery. Employers also had to get government permission before reducing their labour force. The government also tended to give work contracts to those companies that relied on manual labour rather than machines.

ZeroNowhere
17th August 2009, 18:28
Alternatively, we could answer them by stating what socialism is and why Hitler is not a socialist.

Искра
17th August 2009, 18:40
Hitler was never socialist (even his party was "national socialist").
He eliminated the "socialist" part from his party, like Gregor Strasser etc.

Luís Henrique
17th August 2009, 19:21
Hitler was not a conservative republican. He was a fascist, simple as.

This. Six things a fascist is not:

Conservative
Socialist
Liberal
Anarchist
Stalinist
Socialdemocratic

This should be by no means taken as a defence of any of these six things.

***********************

I am, on the other hand, worried by this:


He eliminated the "socialist" part from his party, like Gregor Strasser etc.

Let's put it clear:

Strasser, Roehm, et caterva, were by no means remotely socialist. They were antisemites. They believed that Judaism corrupted capitalism and made it a bad thing, but that, by eliminating Judaism, "greed" and other theological sins would be eliminated, resulting in a society of independent, patriarchal private owners of means of production who wouldn't compete to death like capitalist sharks. It was a petty bourgeois reactionary dream, useful while it was necessary to maintain an "anticapitalist" facade that could compete with socialdemocrats and communists in street brawls; but it was by no means socialist in any meaningful way. Not even in the most vulgar "socialism=state monopolies" way.

Luís Henrique

fatpanda
20th August 2009, 00:15
Right on Sam B. And now for my silly additions...

For the right-wing: The whole Hitler was a leftist (because he was a vegetarian I guess)


He wasn't a vegetarian.Not at all, even that has been refuted.

RGacky3
20th August 2009, 00:36
Given that Hitler's ideals changed every ten minutes, it is impossible to label him as something other at all really, except maybe a disturbed individual with great charisma.

One moment, he hailed the race laws of America, the next one he called America a degenerated filthy nation of would-be-mongrels.

One moment, he wanted nationalisation and socialism. The next, he claimed the racial superiority of the capitalists.

In other words your average politician.

Robert
20th August 2009, 02:52
He wasn't a vegetarian.Not at all, even that has been refuted.

Why it matters I can't imagine, but Hitler certainly had a stated distaste for meat during the war years. He necessarily ate sausage in his youth and canned meat in the trenches of WWI. But Albert Speer in his memoirs details Hitler's boring monologues lionizing the power of the (exclusively herbivorous) elephant and his continual reference to beef broth as "corpse stew." And Hitler knew his corpses!

Honestly, these invidious comparisons between Republicans and Nazis are facile, lazy and stupid, if for no other reason than that Republican administrations have pumped as much money into Israel as have the Democratic ones, if not more. I guess you can argue that Hitler too would have funneled money to Israel to keep them happy there and out of Germany. :lol:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3415479,00.html

Ohnoatard
20th August 2009, 06:57
Look, I dont like conservatives, or American libertarians but calling them fascist is like saying the democrats or liberals are communists.. Hitler was Fascist. The worst ideology on the political spectrum is Fascism.

narcomprom
20th August 2009, 08:07
I wouldn't like to see the term fascist applied inflationary. Fascism is class rule imposed through a strongman rather than through variations on the parliamentary theme. The need for compromise with labour force, that way, is minimised.

All the other specifics largely depend on which lobby they represent. There have been traditionalist protectionalists as much cosmopolite westernizers everyone today would classify as fascists.

Hitler was funded by the mining Bergbau Verband and Krupp's steelworks as well as single capital owners from all over the world. He ascenscion to power was voted for by the Nazi and the conservative Zentrum parties. His electoral base were officers, bureaucrats, peasants and the petit bourgeois.

Is there an american Hitler? The MIC, the oil industry and the agrarians, indeed, do use rhetics and consequently do have an electoral base resembling Hitler's. The alternative are people resembling Pinnochet who's base are jazz-singing pornographers. If we define fascists as rightwingers opposed to parliamentarism, however, we won't find a single fascist in America because the American parliamentarism already gives their grand bourgeoisie quasi-dictatorial powers. You don't need to torch a Reichstag for the occassional red scare or war in America.

@Robert
Theories addressing the psychology of a strongman is the most useless kind of writing you can find on the market. A strongman has no psychology, he has an image - that of an artist, of an extravagant genius. When Speer described Hitler he described the folksy self-proclaimed Genie from Mein Kampf, not a politician. To paint fascism as a brainless irrational avanture of a single idiot was in the interests of those who were it's brain, of the people who's descendants still produce a fair share of world's machinery and cars. And Speer was forgiven his sins for playing in that winner's team denying theirs.

Not Russians won the war. The war was won by owners of BMW, Siemens, IG Farben, IBM, Ford and Volkswagen. The "total victory", Guderian writes in his memoirs, was never considered seriously. Even if he would have taken Moscow they would still be outproduced.

Lacrimi de Chiciură
20th August 2009, 19:52
Hitler was a loon, neither truly left nor right, but both sides try and attribute him to the other. Atheists and theists do the same thing.

As for him embracing right-libertarianism...

Sure, you might get the impression that everyone hates Hitler today when "Nazi" is used more often as an insult than as an accurate label, but if we look at the political positions of self-proclaimed Hitlerites it becomes clear on what side of the spectrum they lie. The main rallying points for neo-Nazi organizations are pro-nationalism/patriotism, pro-capitalism, pro-sexism, pro-patriarchy, and pro-militarism.

And neo-Nazis still try to co-opt left-wing causes today. For example, they oppose the "War on Terror" not because "corporate greed" is inherent in capitalism but because it's the "greedy Jews who control U.S. policy."

They also attempt to put up the anti-capitalist façade when going after undocumented workers; they talk more about "greedy corporations" and the "corrupt Zionist government" and how they are responsible for bringing in "dangerous immigrants" and yet their solution isn't socialism, it's to keep capitalism and "kick out the immigrants." If you listen to Glenn Beck or Lou Dobbs, they say the same shit. The only difference between the neo-Nazis and the rest of the right-wing is varying levels of antisemitism and the openness of their racism. They're just putting a "new spin" on the same old stuff.

fatpanda
21st August 2009, 12:24
Why it matters I can't imagine, but Hitler certainly had a stated distaste for meat during the war years. He necessarily ate sausage in his youth and canned meat in the trenches of WWI. But Albert Speer in his memoirs details Hitler's boring monologues lionizing the power of the (exclusively herbivorous) elephant and his continual reference to beef broth as "corpse stew." And Hitler knew his corpses!

Honestly, these invidious comparisons between Republicans and Nazis are facile, lazy and stupid, if for no other reason than that Republican administrations have pumped as much money into Israel as have the Democratic ones, if not more. I guess you can argue that Hitler too would have funneled money to Israel to keep them happy there and out of Germany. :lol:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3415479,00.html

thats ridicolous...

http://libaware.economads.com/hitlernotveg.php


there are also rumours that he was a homosexual or transvestite
of course to damage the gay community

Bud Struggle
21st August 2009, 16:45
thats ridicolous...

http://libaware.economads.com/hitlernotveg.php



Libaware has a bit of angeda, don't you think? I'd say that Hitler was for the most part a vegitarianism with an occasional sausage every now and then.

A lot of vegitarians are like that.

Radical
23rd August 2009, 17:16
Hitler was a Christian.

Bud Struggle
23rd August 2009, 17:46
Hitler was a Christian.

So was Stalin. So was Fidel for that matter.

RGacky3
23rd August 2009, 20:39
So was Stalin. So was Fidel for that matter.

excuse me???

Bud Struggle
23rd August 2009, 23:01
excuse me??? Stalin studied for the Orthodox priesthood and Fidel went to Catholic schools till he went to the University of Havana.

And Fidel also just built a very singular Orthodox Cathedral at the people's expense in Havana.

Both were as "Christian" as Hitler was.

RGacky3
23rd August 2009, 23:07
Stalin studied for the Orthodox priesthood and Fidel went to Catholic schools till he went to the University of Havana.

And Fidel also just built a very singular Orthodox Cathedral at the people's expense in Havana.

Both were as "Christian" as Hitler was.

I see, I thought for a second you actually ment it :P

Bud Struggle
23rd August 2009, 23:12
I see, I thought for a second you actually ment it :P

All three are equally Christian. :)

Robert
24th August 2009, 02:09
to damage the gay community

Just saw this. I hope no vegetarians see themselves as smeared by stories that Hitler eschewed meat. That hardly makes vegetarians Nazis or something. Is that the concern here?

Rightist Puppet
24th August 2009, 15:22
I'm utterly confused, how does this excerpt show that Hitler was a conservative - in any sense of the word?

ZeroNowhere
24th August 2009, 15:26
I'm utterly confused, how does this excerpt show that Hitler was a conservative - in any sense of the word?Because calling him a conservative sounds far more profound than calling him a fascist.

Bud Struggle
24th August 2009, 16:21
Because calling him a conservative sounds far more profound than calling him a fascist.

The same way calling him a National SOCIALIST make him seem like a Commie.

ZeroNowhere
24th August 2009, 16:41
Yes, pretty much for the same reason as some people could emphasize the word 'socialist' while saying 'National socialist'.

heiss93
27th August 2009, 19:59
I think the main point of the passage is that Hitler supported the balanced constitutional republic, that the US Founding Fathers loved so much at least as much as he supported "socialism".

Bud Struggle
28th August 2009, 01:48
I think the main point of the passage is that Hitler supported the balanced constitutional republic, that the US Founding Fathers loved so much at least as much as he supported "socialism".

Both Hitler AND Stalin had mustaches.:ohmy:

Dimentio
28th August 2009, 15:18
In other words your average politician.

Not really. They did so for tactical reasons.

Hitler did so because of mood swings. The Hitler seen by the German people was filtered by the party strategists to look remotely "normal". The real Hitler was a megalomaniac who lived in a dreamland of paranoia.

I<3OsiUmenyiora
29th August 2009, 06:29
Calling Hitler a capitalist is flat out inaccurate, as he supported enormous state control of the economy, and explicitly rejected private property unless it could be justified as beneficial for the state (or the Aryan cause). He nationalized the biggest industries of Germany under the idea that this would lead to more efficiency. The Nazi party determined what goods would be produced, and the economy was centrally planned to a high degree (namely towards the war machine).

In one sense his policies were socialist, but this is not really accurate on its own. He was a collectivist, but instead of this meaning that all people should be entitled to certain rights, or that all should share in society's wealth, he obviously meant that only ethnically pure Germans were included. If you fit the Nazi Party's ideal of what a good Aryan was, you would be guaranteed social services, food, housing, a job, education, lots of things. Obviously, if you were a Jew, a gypsy, a homosexual, a religious minority, or disabled, you were not included in the collectivist tent, which means the Nazi party was not truly socialist.

On the other hand, the goal of the Nazi Party was to create an all powerful collectivist state for the German race, which is why it named itself National Socialism. They definitely weren't capitalists though, they supported state control of the economy, price controls, nationalization, and opposed private profit. They were fascists plain and simple, that definition fits perfectly.

Dimentio
29th August 2009, 09:32
Calling Hitler a capitalist is flat out inaccurate, as he supported enormous state control of the economy, and explicitly rejected private property unless it could be justified as beneficial for the state (or the Aryan cause). He nationalized the biggest industries of Germany under the idea that this would lead to more efficiency. The Nazi party determined what goods would be produced, and the economy was centrally planned to a high degree (namely towards the war machine).

In one sense his policies were socialist, but this is not really accurate on its own. He was a collectivist, but instead of this meaning that all people should be entitled to certain rights, or that all should share in society's wealth, he obviously meant that only ethnically pure Germans were included. If you fit the Nazi Party's ideal of what a good Aryan was, you would be guaranteed social services, food, housing, a job, education, lots of things. Obviously, if you were a Jew, a gypsy, a homosexual, a religious minority, or disabled, you were not included in the collectivist tent, which means the Nazi party was not truly socialist.

On the other hand, the goal of the Nazi Party was to create an all powerful collectivist state for the German race, which is why it named itself National Socialism. They definitely weren't capitalists though, they supported state control of the economy, price controls, nationalization, and opposed private profit. They were fascists plain and simple, that definition fits perfectly.

Not entirely correct.

The 25 points programme was abandoned and mostly ignored.

Hitler could both attack capitalists and support them, dependent on whom was paying attention to him for the moment. He held a famous speech to the business tycoons where he denounced "economic democracy" (socialism) and claimed that the capitalists were racially superior.

But I won't say that he was an opportunist for that. He was quite uninterested in economic policies. His focus lied on social darwinism and antisemitism, as well on his dream of a giant German Reich which would last for a thousand years. In the same time, he strangely enough uttered a lot of pacifist sentiments (that he wanted to be an artist after the war and so on and go back to his villa at the Bavarian mountains).

When Hitler took over power, he - or rather Schacht and Goering - regulated the business life to yield maximum benefits to recovery and rearmament policies. But Hitler did not say "lets nationalise the public sector", but rather "give me a huge army". It was up to his subordinates to solve those problems.

To all extents, Hitler was a dreaming madman and could not be analysed from an ideological point of view. If you want to understand what motivated him, you have to go for a psycho-analysis.