The Battle of RWB

[Fidel Follower]

This thread is for any anti-fascists that attending the demo to protest against the BNP's RWB festival in Denby Codnor.
Any thoughts on how it went or stories to tell?

I thought it was a good protest, more organised than last year and we got within 100yrds of the festival. The police presense was heavier, they had horses and a 'drone' but apparently a split from the group earlier in the day managed to block the road and stop speakers from entering. We even forced off a group of fascists that came to heckle us. Great success! I hope everyone else that turned out had a good day.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Did radical beat up sam?

[Fidel Follower]

He did. I saw it with my own eyes.

[AlMack]

fuck me my ribs are crushed after that. was fun tho, guess it was a success if both ends were blocked an they couldnt get in as they announced

[AlMack]

oh yeah an my group got confronted and accused of either being fash or 'anarchist hooligans' a few times because we're typical working class lads basically with shaved heads/hoods blah blah JOKERS

[Fidel Follower]

Yeah they were jokes. Lots of lads just looking for a bit of trouble really.

Anyone know who the guy with the ----- tee was?

[The Feral Underclass]

I didn't sound like much of a battle to me.

[Fidel Follower]

I didn't sound like much of a battle to me.

Which part of the protest were you on?

[Holden Caulfield]

here is one report from the softs (UAF)


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_XLxL5xIl-m8/SocEh8VUguI/AAAAAAAACS0/6fL67m9Wxls/s320/greatdemopic.jpeg (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_XLxL5xIl-m8/SocEh8VUguI/AAAAAAAACS0/6fL67m9Wxls/s1600-h/greatdemopic.jpeg)

A superb view of the march approaching the RWB

Early reports back from the demonstration at the BNP's Red, White and Blue piss-up suggest that there were in excess of 1500 protestors (http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_3441646.html?menu=news.topheadlines) and a measly seven arrests (three for being outside the designated protest zone, for God's sake).

The other four arrests were made when those at the head of the march of about a thousand demonstrators tried to force their way past a cordon of mounted and standing police to the entrance to the RWB site 150 metres away. Bags of flour, plastic bottles, eggs and fruit were thrown.



http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_XLxL5xIl-m8/SocEnUiulZI/AAAAAAAACS8/ZwP1N4BO2z0/s320/heilhitler.jpeg (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_XLxL5xIl-m8/SocEnUiulZI/AAAAAAAACS8/ZwP1N4BO2z0/s1600-h/heilhitler.jpeg)

What a lovely bunch of neanderthals - the BNP in action

The main body of demonstrators, which was monitored by a helicoptor, CCTV cameras and a camera mounted on a drone, gathered in Codnor's Market Place, chanting "Nazi scum, off our streets" and waving placards. The other arrests took place at the junction of Codnor-Denby Lane and Heanor Road, where smaller groups of protestors clashed with officers.



http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_XLxL5xIl-m8/SocH0hbzJ4I/AAAAAAAACTE/8x734hpw4JE/s320/smashthenazibnpbanner.jpg (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_XLxL5xIl-m8/SocH0hbzJ4I/AAAAAAAACTE/8x734hpw4JE/s1600-h/smashthenazibnpbanner.jpg)

At the front of the march - and facing the horses

The march came a day after an open letter was published on Unite Against Fascism's website, condemning the BNP event. The letter, whose signatories include former London mayor Ken Livingstone, children's author Michael Rosen and trade union leaders, accused the BNP of trying to "build up a hardened neo-Nazi core at the centre of the organisation".

It said: "We condemn the BNP and its festival of race hate, and we urge people to reject this party's poisonous and anti-democratic agenda."

[Rory]

Yeah they were jokes. Lots of lads just looking for a bit of trouble really.

Anyone know who the guy with the ---- tee was?

Yeah, I do. Why?

[bellyscratch]

I was there in one of the blockades with Pogue. Was pretty effective as we held up a massive line of cars trying to get into the festival, with most of them turning back trying to find a different route. Think the blockade was there for about 4 hours before we marched back into town. The police were getting ready to break up the blockade, but the 'organisers' decided the confrontation with police would be pointless and not achieve anything extra.

There was a mixed reaction from the locals, a few of them were clapping us on our way back from the blockade with others complaining about us disrupting them.

All in all, I thought we achieved what I was hoping, which was just to disrupt things and make our presence felt.

[Pogue]

Yeah, I do. Why?

don't discuss this over revleft

[Pogue]

I was there. Got up at a bone shaking 4am to get a trot coach up there. I thought the demo was OK really, the blockade thing actually acheived something which is nice, alot of the fash were looking really pissed off and squaring up to some of us at the beginning. I think generally it was quite a good show and we certainly wound them up.

[Rory]

I was there in one of the blockades with Pogue. Was pretty effective as we held up a massive line of cars trying to get into the festival, with most of them turning back trying to find a different route. Think the blockade was there for about 4 hours before we marched back into town. The police were getting ready to break up the blockade, but the 'organisers' decided the confrontation with police would be pointless and not achieve anything extra.

There was a mixed reaction from the locals, a few of them were clapping us on our way back from the blockade with others complaining about us disrupting them.

All in all, I thought we achieved what I was hoping, which was just to disrupt things and make our presence felt.

I was with you in that block. I was trying to agitate to stay and I was the "sarcastic comment" the steward mentioned. She was really annoying. I guess we were as successful as we could have hoped considering it was only a day. If we really want to shut it down we'll have to go down for the whole weekend.

[Rory]

don't discuss this over revleft

I wasn't intending to give away any details, I just wanted to know what he was being singled out for. I heard he very nearly got arrested.

[spiney norman]

oh yeah an my group got confronted and accused of either being fash or 'anarchist hooligans' a few times because we're typical working class lads basically with shaved heads/hoods blah blah JOKERS
Were you with the lad with the special gloves? If so I thought that wet liberal, saying "you're not with me" was bang out of order - he could have got him arrested.

All in all a good day. I think it went as well as we could realistically have hoped for. A few bruised ribs but I don't mind that. My only complaint was the overpowering stench of horse shit.

By the way, did anyone see the bloke with the yellow Anti-Nazi League banner get arrested? He was with us but we got split up when the pushing started - I know he got arrested but he hasn't been released yet so I haven't spoken to him, just wondered if anyone saw what happened.

[bellyscratch]

I was with you in that block. I was trying to agitate to stay and I was the "sarcastic comment" the steward mentioned. She was really annoying. I guess we were as successful as we could have hoped considering it was only a day. If we really want to shut it down we'll have to go down for the whole weekend.

I did want to stay at the time too. Wasn't happy about being moved on without a fight, but I was happy with what was achieved really. Hopefully next year it will be a bigger and more prolonged anti-fascist presence and we can disrupt it even more.

[Pogue]

I think if we can really get a big presence next year we could serioulsy be in control of this whole event and totally shut it down but thats for planning elsehwere ;)

[Holden Caulfield]

By the way, did anyone see the bloke with the Chesterfield Anti-Nazi League banner get arrested? He's a comrade from my branch.

This is info that fascists can use to put locations, then names to faces on any photos of the event.

Remember to stay cautious about what info you choose to divulge

[Pogue]

By the way...

Despite all his mouthing off, Radical didn't show up, so luckily me and Sam b managed to escape with our lives. You could literally feel the BNP sigh in relief that this man-machine-warrior had not turned up.

I hate people who lack commitment to struggle and don't turn up when they say they will. So much for all the big talk.

[Holden Caulfield]

video from UAF

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zOzwswLSDk

[The Feral Underclass]

I didn't sound like much of a battle to me.

I wasn't on any of it, thankfully.

[Pogue]

I wasn't on any of it, thankfully.

It wasn't that bad really. I thought it would be a bit naff but the blockade bit was quite cool because it actually wound the BNP up a fair bit, and I was with sound people like bellyscratch so it was ok. he bought me a pint cos i'm a scrounger

[The Feral Underclass]

Yeah, blockades are a good move, but despite the fact that 1500 people turned up, which is a very good turn out, if we want to actually pose a significant threat to the BNP, having a UAF demonstration is not going to cut it.

[Pogue]

Yeah, blockades are a good move, but despite the fact that 1500 people turned up, which is a very good turn out, if we want to actually pose a significant threat to the BNP, having a UAF demonstration is not going to cut it.

I agree, I think the organisation is rubbish, this tactic was good but they wont/don't keep it up and their rhetoric is awful.

[The Feral Underclass]

I agree, I think the organisation is rubbish, this tactic was good but they wont/don't keep it up and their rhetoric is awful.

Was there even a tactic or did it just happen that more radical elements of the demo decided to blockade. That seems to be what usually happens.

[Pogue]

Was there even a tactic or did it just happen that more radical elements of the demo decided to blockade. That seems to be what usually happens.

It was a tactic as far as I am aware, they announced in leaflets the desire to 'kettle' the BNP and then we were directed to make this happen. It suprised me when I found out they were actually proposing it as a tactic.

[OneNamedNameLess]

So what's the plan for tomorrow? I don't know if you would have spotted me there. I was the guy who single handedly took out five fash, or maybe it was six, and a couple of police officers.

[Pogue]

So what's the plan for tomorrow? I don't know if you would have spotted me there. I was the guy who single handedly took out five fash, or maybe it was six, and a couple of police officers.

you aint shit, bellyscratch took out the police chopper by spitting at it from the ground.

[OneNamedNameLess]

What is the plan for tomorrow though? Are there more counter demonstrations? Btw I am in Glasgow sadly and couldn't make it, but next year I will be taking out more fash than you can count and hopefully police officers too ;)

[RotStern]

Lol It sounds like you guys had some fun :D

[Fidel Follower]

Yeah, I do. Why?

I just thought it he was a good guy, enthusiastic and sound.

[spiney norman]

This is info that fascists can use to put locations, then names to faces on any photos of the event.

Remember to stay cautious about what info you choose to divulge
To be honest I didn't think I'd given anything away there - no names mentioned and, after all, if they're going to look for his face the location is on the massive banner he's holding. Having said that, I wouldn't want to put him in danger, so so I've edited out anything that could possibly be used to identify him. Please can remove the offending text from your post too?

[Fietsketting]

Was Antifa England there as well?

[bellyscratch]

Was Antifa England there as well?
There was a guy with an antifa flag in our blockade, but I didnt really see much other presence when we met up with the other contingents

[Holden Caulfield]

Was Antifa England there as well?


There was a guy with an antifa flag in our blockade, but I didnt really see much other presence when we met up with the other contingents

I can PM comrades details on the lack of a militant presence,

[Spud]

Lack of a militant presence: well knock me down with a feather.

What exactly was achieved yesterday? Fuck all. The BNP will go on for years if this is the best we can do.

UAF (with I understand a significant input from the unions) couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery.

[Fietsketting]

I can PM comrades details on the lack of a militant presence,

:thumbup1:

[Rory]

I just thought it he was a good guy, enthusiastic and sound.

Ah good, yeah, he's committed and really good bloke. I'm glad to see he did himself proud :P

[MilitantAnarchist]

i couldn’t make it, i would of love to of gone.... but i agree, they hold this rwb fest every year, and no one is doing anything to stop it except whispering 'please go away' so quietly the only people that hear it are other antifascists, unless we actually do something drastic, it will carry on all the time......
Before i get criticised as i often do, i know it isn’t as simple as that, it wont stop them, but what it will do is let them know that they do have something real to fear, other then just fucking eggs that they usually get pelted with...

[*Red*Alert]

Yea i was at the protest, a great day out.

Yea me and a few others had a picnic at the front of police lines.:D

A few piccys to add from the day.


Same time next year i hope.

Brass neck?

[Melbourne Lefty]

well at least it was better than last year.

[Melbourne Lefty]

I have to say after looking at the fash forums they hardly seem very distraught or intimidated. Quite the opposite in fact.:(

Well at least someone took down the BNP website with what looks like another DDos attack, so they cant gloat and spout their bullshit there.:)

[Sam_b]

I thought it was a good effort under the circumstances. Apparently on several news outlets Griffin was raging and blaming the Labour Party for the unrest. Breaking the first line of the police blockade was symbolic on one hand, but hopefully more effective in future as we know it can be done. Next year our objective has to be to get right up to the RW&B and try to confront the nazis there, without the police protecting them again.

[AlMack]

Were you with the lad with the special gloves? If so I thought that wet liberal, saying "you're not with me" was bang out of order - he could have got him arrested.


yeah i was, they were only biking gloves, the knuckles were plastic, his own wife told him to chill

[*Red*Alert]

yeah i was, they were only biking gloves, the knuckles were plastic, his own wife told him to chill
Try to avoid identifying yourself on a public forum. If there are photos of the event, either police or BNP, they can be used against you by either the State or the Fash and will confirm your identity.

[Fietsketting]

Next year our objective has to be to get right up to the RW&B and try to confront the nazis there, without the police protecting them again.

Are you radicalising? :thumbup1:

[Holden Caulfield]

I thought it was a good effort under the circumstances. Apparently on several news outlets Griffin was raging and blaming the Labour Party for the unrest. Breaking the first line of the police blockade was symbolic on one hand, but hopefully more effective in future as we know it can be done. Next year our objective has to be to get right up to the RW&B and try to confront the nazis there, without the police protecting them again.

Doing what antifa tried to do last year will be difficult especially with the base of people UAF often have, passive resistence is much different for actively trespassing, resisting the police, etc etc.

I'm not taking a stab at UAF, I would fucking love it if they tried to storm the site and disrupt the event. It was this disruption by antifa last year that caused the state and organisers big problems and they feared the same this year.

[bellyscratch]

I thought it was a good effort under the circumstances. Apparently on several news outlets Griffin was raging and blaming the Labour Party for the unrest. Breaking the first line of the police blockade was symbolic on one hand, but hopefully more effective in future as we know it can be done. Next year our objective has to be to get right up to the RW&B and try to confront the nazis there, without the police protecting them again.

I pretty much agree with this from my experience there. I find it slightly annoying that far too many people treated it as a glorious victory when it really wasn't. Yes we did well, but we've got a long way to go if we want to be truly effective.

[AlMack]

. Next year our objective has to be to get right up to the RW&B and try to confront the nazis there, without the police protecting them again.


:thumbup1::thumbup1::thumbup1::thumbup1::thumbup1: :thumbup1::thumbup1::thumbup1::thumbup1::thumbup1: :thumbup1::thumbup1::thumbup1::thumbup1::thumbup1: :thumbup1::thumbup1::thumbup1::thumbup1::thumbup1: etc.

[Hit The North]

Lack of a militant presence: well knock me down with a feather.

What exactly was achieved yesterday? Fuck all. The BNP will go on for years if this is the best we can do.

UAF (with I understand a significant input from the unions) couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery.

Mad respect to everyone who was there.

All the backbiters should either do better themselves or shut the fuck up.

[Pogue]

Mad respect to everyone who was there.

All the backbiters should either do better themselves or shut the fuck up.

Thanks. It was actually quite fun though, it was enjoyable, arguing with Trots, seeing the countryside, squaring up to pissed off fash, getting a lovely tan, beer in the pub then home.

[communard resolution]

A bunch of London comrades who intended to travel with the UAF bus couldn't go because some guy threw a brick through the coach window to prevent it from setting off in South London.

Whether jumping up and down chaning "Nazis! Nazis!" together with Labour and Tories is a very effective strategy against the rise of nationalism is a different question. As for the brick throwing incident, I'm wondering whether this was an isolated sympathiser/weirdo or whether the local BNP had something to do with it. Should the latter be the case, then this would make me a little bit nervous.

[Holden Caulfield]

I'm wondering whether this was an isolated sympathiser/weirdo or whether the local BNP had something to do with it. Should the latter be the case, then this would make me a little bit nervous.

Its often both:

As I said about the incident with boneheads intimidating (waiting outside the house in a jeep) local residents who lodged complaints about RWB, or when anti-racist leafletters are intimidated and pushed about by boneheads under the name of a well known BNP front group, or even when former BNP councillor candidates threaten anti-racist groups under the name of the EDL.

There are countless examples, the BNP officially dropped the boot boy image, however physical intimadation are still prevelant in the ideology of the BNP, however they do not want to damage their 'respectable political party' credentials so they find ways round it. BNP intimidation by proxy if you will look at it that way.

[Hit The North]

Whether jumping up and down chaning "Nazis! Nazis!" together with Labour and Tories is a very effective strategy against the rise of nationalism is a different question.

Which Tories were there?

[Pogue]

I don't think chanting Nazi really works either. I didn't really feel too comfortable joining in alot of UAF chants. Not that I deny the BNP are fascist or influenced by the Nazis a great deal with a strong Nazi/white supremacist element, but I just think its a bit puerile. I tihkn anti-fascists generally need better chants in this country. The whole 'Nazi - no further discussion' element of anti-fascism of the uAF variety is annoying. I think we just need our own songs, and when we mobilise against them we sing them in our own way whilst doing what we need too. Chanting seems to be part of the usual passive form of protest anyway. I like chants but I prefer to sing anti-fascist songs like some of us were in Derby on Saturday like bella ciao, and some of the antifa oi songs. What you chant on demos (if you chant at all, and if your chanting on a demo where things get naughty you want it to be more rallying/intimidating anyway) I think it should be an expression of your politics and I don't think the politics of saying nazi alot is really good politics.

[communard resolution]

Which Tories were there?

Does David Cameron and other Tory MPs not support UAF? I have no idea if any of them were physically present at the Red White and Blue protest, but that's not the point.

[Pogue]

Does David Cameron and other Tory MPs not support UAF? I have no idea if any of them were physically present at the Red White and Blue protest, but that's not the point.

He is behind it. The liberal attitude of UAF means such people can join/be considered valued supporters of the organisation. None of these 'big names' were present in our (the anti-fascists) blockades.

[communard resolution]

I think it should be an expression of your politics and I don't think the politics of saying nazi alot is really good politics.

Yes, I agree - and people are sick of hearing it. And it's underestimating the intelligence of the general public too.

I'm not sure about No Platformism either. On the contrary, it appears to me that we should take every opportunity to debate these people into the ground.

One of the most bizarre manifestations of No Platformism occured on a BBC radio programme some time ago where Nick Griffin appeared alongside a UAF guy (I forget his name). The UAF guy evidently thought that it was some kind of mortal sin to talk to a Nazi and refused to engage in any conversation with Griffin, only speaking to the radio host instead. As a result, Griffin appeared like an eloquent, well spoken 'democrat' and presented his ideas unchallenged while the UAF guy just looked stupid.

We are the Left, the inheritors of the Enlightenment tradition; we advocate reason, debate, argument, science - not emotionalism, not censorship, not fear of debate, not fear of ideas. Isn't it wrong that someone like Griffin gets the chance to present himself as more reasonable than the Left while we look like a bunch of Christians who refuse to speak to the devil?

[Holden Caulfield]

No Platform is a valid tactic because what they are saying is offensive, and divisive to the working class community. You would not stand back and allow a person you are in a group with espouse how blacks are the bane of society, especially when these views are acceptable to so many due to the words of the bourgeois right wing press, so why allow it on a mass sclae.

As for that radio show, that wasn't no platform, if the fash already have a platform what does refusing debate achieve other than making them look better and making yourself look dumb. Weyman Bennett of the SWP & UAF is not the prime example to hold up when talking about No Platform, people who fought the BUF, the NF, and the likes of these people are.

[communard resolution]

No Platform is a valid tactic because what they are saying is offensive,

Everything is offensive to someone. I find a lot of things offensive that I read in other people's Daily Mail when on public transport. I find some things that Paris Hilton says offensive. But I would never dream of censoring everything that offends me. Some people find four letter words offensive. So this is not a valid reason to me.


and divisive to the working class community.This is a more serious argument. Do we subscribe to the notion that words/ideas make people act in certain ways? Why do we find the notion that violent video games and music drive people to commit acts of violence so implausible on one hand, and the notion that hate speech turns people into fascists so plausibe on the other? And doesn't this contradict our presumed materialist/anti-idealist understanding of the world?

I'm not necessarily contradicting you here, just thinking out loud. I'm undecided on this.


As for that radio show, that wasn't no platform, if the fash already have a platform what does refusing debate achieve other than making them look better and making yourself look dumb.Yes I agree. It was still symptomatic of the Left's aversion to combat the fash in debate, though. Are we so short of arguments that we couldn't possibly hold up in a debate?

[Hit The North]

I don't think chanting Nazi really works either. I didn't really feel too comfortable joining in alot of UAF chants. Not that I deny the BNP are fascist or influenced by the Nazis a great deal with a strong Nazi/white supremacist element, but I just think its a bit puerile.

When did you get so grown up? Don't claim you're above being puerile. There's plenty of evidence on Revleft to substantiate that you're not.


He [David Cameron] is behind it.



You're talking bollocks.

[nuisance]

Brilliant post Bob, what a great addition to the thread. If you ain't going to display anything of substance and just attempt to steer the discussion into a flame war, then you can fuck right off.

[Pogue]

When did you get so grown up? Don't claim you're above being puerile. There's plenty of evidence on Revleft to substantiate that you're not.



You're talking bollocks.

My real life conduct on demonstrations is anything but puerile. I am sure if you asked anyone who I have been on demonstrations with you find out know this is the case. I do not want to engage in puerile political practice in real life, and I happen to find some of the UAF chants puerile.

I don't think its bollocks. David Cameron has clearly said he is behind it. That doesn't mean I believe he is going to put his neck on the line for the anti-fascist cause but I think you knew what I meant. He is one of the big names who has said they support the organisation. I think he might even be a member.

[communard resolution]

I think he might even be a member.

According to wiki, he is:


Right-wing members include Conservative Party leader David Cameron and former Conservative MP Sir Teddy Taylor.

[*Red*Alert]

According to wiki, he is:
Fascist Anti-Fascists? :confused:

[Pogue]

Fascist Anti-Fascists? :confused:

Despite all his flaws, David Cameron is by no definition a fascist.

[communard resolution]

Despite all his flaws, David Cameron is by no definition a fascist.

He isn't. But in my estimation, the Conservative Party is nothing short of being a far right party. The continental European Christian-Democrat and centre right parties are Social Democrats in comparison - which, I presume, is the reason why the Tories left the centre-right EEP grouping in the European Parliament and joined another bloc with European far-right parties such as the Polish Law and Justice party, renowned for espousing 'Catholic family values' such as homophobia and antisemitism: Link (http://www.miboys.com/html/22/n-44322.html)

[Holden Caulfield]

When did you get so grown up? Don't claim you're above being puerile. There's plenty of evidence on Revleft to substantiate that you're not.

Has anybody from the SWP actually tried to defend their involvement in UAF with anything legitimate? Because all I can remember are personal attacks or criticisms of other groups to deflect any criticism of their own group.

As for what Nero said I'll come back to that later...

[Spud]

Mad respect to everyone who was there.

All the backbiters should either do better themselves or shut the fuck up.

It's a fair reaction, I would have said the same I suppose. There is however a difference between backstabbing and a reality check.

Surly the measurement of the success of any protest must be the damage you cause to the enemy and not how much fun it was being there. The point being that the protest did fuck all to dent the BNP.

The thread has moved on and the discussion is good.

[Hit The North]

Has anybody from the SWP actually tried to defend their involvement in UAF with anything legitimate?

SWP involvement is "legitimate" (whatever that's supposed to mean) for a number of reasons.

First, let's be clear - and this is not boasting, it is fact - that without the SWP, UAF would be stillborn. As the largest and best organised grouping in the UAF, the SWP provide the activists and the resources required to make it a campaigning organisation. It's participation is legitimate because the BNP's growth and influence needs to be opposed and the SWP has determined that this is a key objective for the left. Some on the left might disagree. Nevertheless, this is the SWP's "legitimate" concern.

2. To mobilise the widest opposition possible to the BNP and what they stand for and to expose them by whatever means, for the fascists they are.

3. To draw as many activists from the left into activity rather than than allowing them to just sit on their hands, complaining about the BNP.

Why does every thread have to turn into the SWP justifying its involvement? Shouldn't we be asking where the Socialist Party are in all this? After all, their website promoted the protest in Codnor and has this to say:


THE British National Party's (BNP) leaders and organisers have not changed their neo-Nazi ideas. They are committed to stirring up racism and division at every opportunity. If they succeed in this, it will weaken the ability of working class people in Britain - black, white and Asian - to organise and fight back against attacks on jobs and services.In this respect, there is not a Rizla paper's difference between the SPEW analysis and the SWP analysis. So why aren't the Socialist Party getting stuck in and helping to push UAF in a more militant direction? What are their "legitimate" reasons for not getting involved?

[Hit The North]

Surly the measurement of the success of any protest must be the damage you cause to the enemy and not how much fun it was being there. The point being that the protest did fuck all to dent the BNP.



What did you expect? That they would march in with clubs and machetes and kill the fascists???

The point of UAF is to hound out the fascists wherever they raise their heads, whether than means trying to organise thousands in a counter demo; dozens in a local initiative to drive their papersellers out of town; or egging their leaders in front of the TV cameras.

Sorry if this doesn't conform to your fantasies of armed resistance.

[Holden Caulfield]

I don't think we backbiters should shut the fuck up because there is nothing better out there, and because we can't do better ourselves as yet, if you think we should would you also cave into the Stalinists taunts of 'how many revolutions has your tendency had'. I think not.

I am allowed to criticise, as for the doing nothing part, I can PM you the details Bob....


SWP involvement is "legitimate" (whatever that's supposed to mean) for a number of reasons.

I ment justifiyable.


First, let's be clear - and this is not boasting, it is fact - that without the SWP, UAF would be stillborn. As the largest and best organised grouping in the UAF, the SWP provide the activists and the resources required to make it a campaigning organisation. It's participation is legitimate because the BNP's growth and influence needs to be opposed and the SWP has determined that this is a key objective for the left. Some on the left might disagree. Nevertheless, this is the SWP's "legitimate" concern.

I agree with all of this, I disagree with some of the methods of UAF. I think the very fact that, as you mentioned, UAF is dominated by the SWP shows that it could be so much more class based (when it needs to be) and less of a popular front. I've seen UAF people at an even with HNH. HNH who's leaflet said something like "Winston Churchill led us to victory of the evil fascist nazis, BNP youth leader Mark Collet said this: 'Churchill was a ****". Now the UAF is not responsible for HNH but it almost highlights my point that you guys have whored yourselves to the 'mainstream'. It reeks of opportunism. & WHY THE FUCK ARE TOREIS MEMBERS?!?


2. To mobilise the widest opposition possible to the BNP and what they stand for and to expose them by whatever means, for the fascists they are.

I suggest you give this a read: here (http://www.revleft.com/vb/give-up-t115004/index.html), then tell me what you think. Exposing them as fascists is also something I think you chaps have relied on too much,



Why does every thread have to turn into the SWP justifying its involvement? Shouldn't we be asking where the Socialist Party are in all this? After all, their website promoted the protest in Codnor and has this to say:

In this respect, there is not a Rizla paper's difference between the SPEW analysis and the SWP analysis. So why aren't the Socialist Party getting stuck in and helping to push UAF in a more militant direction? What are their "legitimate" reasons for not getting involved?


SWP should justify itself, in the same way I tried my best to defend no2eu when it came under a deluge of attacks. And I think, to the best of my ability, and against very credible criticisms from very astute comrades I did defend it.

When talking anti-fascism and things there abouts I have always been honest and constructive, my conscience is clean (I'll go onto what I do later). Yet again you attack the SP, the same thing your comrades did when I challenged their tacit support of the Greens at Marxism.

But the sucker is I left the SP, for reasons such as they have failed to get involved in many groups and campaigns they should have, they have been too blinkered towards working soley with the unions and no other campaigns.

I do not have to defend the SP. The legitimate reasons for no getting involved are it doesn't work when fighting for and with the working class against fascism, maybe it does for guardian readers, former labour activists, possible green party voters, and the types who go to HNH gigs. The SP has had more sucess fighting the BNP on our own territory, on working class issues either as ourselves or, at least in Cumbria, as no2eu. Sunderland SWP had to fight tooth and nail, so they tell me, to have the word working class on a poster ffs. UAF is a popular front, if it splits off from the bourgeois politicians I would consider helping them out.

I do not have to defend the SP, because, although they might not have gotten involved to the degree I would have liked, I have. I have been involved with the local anti-racist campaign, and am now involved with pushing that forwards into a pro-active left wing group.

UAF is a popular front. I don't hate UAF, I told Pogue to go along to the UAF condor thing, I would have went myself if I didn't have to work. But just because they are the biggest group out there does not mean they are without massive criticism.

On a side note I find your rebuff rather Stalinist "this is the best we have, why criticise it, you are a SPite wreaker, what revolutions have you had, we must form popular fronts, the working class isn't ready etcetc"

[Hit The North]

Holden:

I don't think we backbiters should shut the fuck up because there is nothing better out there, and because we can't do better ourselves as yet, if you think we should would you also cave into the Stalinists taunts of 'how many revolutions has your tendency had'. I think not.By backbiter I'm referring to the usual suspects in this thread who couldn't be arsed to go along and then throw cold water on the efforts of those who did. I'm not arguing that criticism cannot be levelled against the UAF, SWP or anybody else. Open and constructive criticism amongst the Left is crucial, as long as it doesn't preclude solidarity and participation.


It reeks of opportunism. & WHY THE FUCK ARE TOREIS MEMBERS?!?
You know the reason for this and understand the weaknesses in UAF which made it possible. On the other hand, it is Cameron who is being the opportunist. It's a problem for UAF because his name allows others on the left to turn away. But, in practical political terms, it is irrelevant whether he signed up in order to bolster his own profile. As far as I know he has never been invited to appear at a UAF rally and, I suspect, neither would he if he had been. But he gives those sectarians who will only work with the "pure in heart and ideology" a get-out clause. Now I am not referring to you here. I think we both know who they are. If I had my way, his name along with similar others would be expunged from the UAF and his attempt to attach himself, publicly repudiated. However, it's not up to me. I am not a member of UAF.


Yet again you attack the SP, the same thing your comrades did when I challenged their tacit support of the Greens at Marxism.
I'm not attacking them, I'm just wondering why they stay removed. They share an identical analysis with the SWP of the danger represented by the BNP ; they aren't left communists, libertarian socialists or anarchists; they have no problem with working with individual Labour MPs or Trade Union leaders. So why is SPEW so adamant about keeping its distance?

They make a lot of noise about the need for a new workers party but this will only come about when socialists begin to struggle side by side and existing organisational divisions are broken down.


I do not have to defend the SP, because, although they might not have gotten involved to the degree I would have liked, I have. I have been involved with the local anti-racist campaign, and am now involved with pushing that forwards into a pro-active left wing group.
Good for you, but left in isolation, cut off from the wider movements, even the best local group will eventually run out of steam and wither away. Btw, I don't know why you feel the need to launch in to such self-justification, as no one, least of all me, has attacked you personally in this thread.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Everything is offensive to someone. I find a lot of things offensive that I read in other people's Daily Mail when on public transport. I find some things that Paris Hilton says offensive. But I would never dream of censoring everything that offends me. Some people find four letter words offensive. So this is not a valid reason to me.

This is a more serious argument. Do we subscribe to the notion that words/ideas make people act in certain ways? Why do we find the notion that violent video games and music drive people to commit acts of violence so implausible on one hand, and the notion that hate speech turns people into fascists so plausibe on the other? And doesn't this contradict our presumed materialist/anti-idealist understanding of the world?

I'm not necessarily contradicting you here, just thinking out loud. I'm undecided on this.

Yes I agree. It was still symptomatic of the Left's aversion to combat the fash in debate, though. Are we so short of arguments that we couldn't possibly hold up in a debate?

I think the isssue here is not "do we get upset when they call us jews" or whatever but should we let a bunch of people whose ideology is used by our class enemies to disrupt the activities of any workers movement have any kind of ground in our communities , should we let them decrease the standard of living for ourselves and our neighbors by having a bunch of right wing fucks cause divides between whites and blacks , straights ands gays etc by targeting young kids and spreading lies.

No of course not its not only about stopping the decrease in standards in our community its also a kind of self defense in that if they are being attacked they wont be able to organize to attack us (for instance we would have a serious problem if the EDL did not get such a sound beating as it seems a realistic possibility that it is or could have been the embryonic organized goon orgisation for the BNP ).

This is not to say we will beat them by just smashing there faces in with bottles or whatever of course the only way to permanently stop people like them is by building up our own movement which quite frankly the left is shit at doing at the moment mostly due to people like me not doing anything and leaving it to people who may have more time, if i was to make an asuption it would be a lot of the people who have the time to do masses of leftist work find themselves in a leftist ghetto be that a subculture or student social circle which makes it hard to related to normal people and their issues , this also means we have the PR skills of a pedo ring. That said/ ranted alot of leftists do brilliant work.

[Holden Caulfield]

So why is SPEW so adamant about keeping its distance?


Personally I feel it is opportunist and politically bankrupt for revolutionary politics to be so closely laced to bourgeois politics. I think it gives ammunition to the far right to discredit UAF as defending the interests of the Labour Party (which tbh it does, Harriet Harman [or HB i forget] apparently contacted UAF before the euro elections to show the finding of Labour Party opinion polls, so I was told by a SWP full timer) something the BNP are quick to remind the working class. That said I would still support UAF groups I think are doing well, however would never join.

The SP might well keep away due to sheer party egoism, in the same way the SWP avoided no2eu, this is largely why I left the party (and why i also didnt join the SWP).

But also I feel, perhaps they did feel, that it is a failed tactic, I can't see any objective evidence to say that it has worked, however I see evidence that the UAF line of screaming nazi doesn't work. Mainly in so much that I have seen Carlisle's anti-racist group sucessfully and when massively outnumbers in activists, funds, materials, publicity, coverage, hold back the BNP vote by basing their campaign on working class issues and on, more and more so, trying to offer alternatives. I also see evidence in the Nuneaton elections of the past, the SP had a good record of votes here, they often pro-actively campaigned on working class issues and had been level with BNP turnout (often getting more than the fash) however this last round of elections they sadly followed the UAF line of marches, LMHR gigs (not bad as a cultural even dont get me wrong) and typical nazi labelling and they got badly beaten at the polls by the BNP who offered solutions to their actual material concerns.

[Radical]

Good job to the people that went

I think we need to try and discover new means as a way to make sure that nobody can no-longer consider this "Fascist festival" a family event.

I support No-Platform against Idea's that advocate racism and oppression. I'm not a pacifist. I agree with Adolf Hitler when he says -

"Only one thing could have broken our movement - if our enemies had understood its principle and from the first day had smashed the nucleus of our movement with extreme brutality"

[Holden Caulfield]

good old Hitler eh,

[Fidel Follower]

if you can't beat em...

[OneNamedNameLess]

if you can't beat em...

... shoot yourself in the fucking head before they do.

[Tomhet]

great job bys and keep up the great work! :)

[Melbourne Lefty]

Mainly in so much that I have seen Carlisle's anti-racist group sucessfully and when massively outnumbers in activists, funds, materials, publicity, coverage, hold back the BNP vote by basing their campaign on working class issues and on, more and more so, trying to offer alternatives.


Thats really the base line, the UAF and co. may be supported by union officials but are they on the ground like the BNP is offering people an idea on how to change the world?

Bottom line. If our ideas about the world are better than theirs [and they are] then we should not be afraid to put them to people to vote on.

The BNP campaigns on streetlights, housing and services. What left wing group is out there going door to door doing the same?

[Killfacer]

The BNP campaigns on streetlights, housing and services. What left wing group is out there going door to door doing the same?

This hits the nail on the fucking head.

[n1co]

hi, i was at the front at the mainside of the rwb 'battle', i think it went ok, really dissapointed about the stewards there though, i had to get past about 4 stewards forbidding me from going to the front, and although i didnt see it from where i was at i heard the stewards actually linked arms to stop more protesters joining the lines against the police. i dont think we really did much physically on the day, we made about 5 metres from where the police told us to stop. however considering we were only supposed to kettle it, we did that and the news coverage that evening showed the bnp in a fairly bad light so meh, good points and bad points :confused:.

we need to step things up to stop the bnp.

(the biggest dissapointment must have been getting on my coach and realising radical had ditched me, you guys are lucky this wasnt a main event. :crying::crying::crying:.)

[Melbourne Lefty]

the news coverage that evening showed the bnp in a fairly bad light so meh, good points and bad points http://www.revleft.com/vb/battle-rwb-t115299/revleft/smilies/confused1.gif.

The media coverage was the biggest win of the day. Even if the News of the Screws article was as funny as hell. I kinda laughed when they started speaking about PAGAN ceremonies being used to summon occult powers.

I think its clear that when it comes to the BNP the media is fully and completely on our side.

Makes a nice change.:lol:

[communard resolution]

The media coverage was the biggest win of the day. Even if the News of the Screws article was as funny as hell. I kinda laughed when they started speaking about PAGAN ceremonies being used to summon occult powers.
:lol:

Um yeah, that article was hilarious, and obviously it was full of fabrications - not sure this is doing us any service? But ok.

[Holden Caulfield]

I think its clear that when it comes to the BNP the media is fully and completely on our side.

our side? news to me that one.
true we are anti-fascist but we are not anti-fascist in the way the bourgeois press is. we don't want to spread racism to keep the working class down and maintain the status-quo only to criticise racists when they start to rumble the status quo. Most of the red-top BNP criticism is to scare people back to the Labour Party, and the Black-top criticisms are because they would much prefer UKIP or Thatcher reincarnated, not a third way party like the BNP (fascism being a very last resort for such bourgeois types). Is it the telegraph that keeps calling the BNP a left wing party? Those journo's need to get a better education

[Hit The North]

Those journo's need to get a better education

What, better than a privately-educated and then Oxbridge education?

I think they got the education which their class interest requires.