Socialism Within Sinn Fein? (And Other Irish Unification Advocates)

[Fog On The Tyne]

Hello all, I'm new here, so I thought I'd start off with a question that's bothering me.

Why does Sinn Fein, the party with the agenda of Irish reunification within Northern Ireland go with the pretence of Socialism, when reunifying with Ireland would actually mean less chance of a Socialist agenda, as Ireland is generally less Socialistic than the UK?

Also, why are Socialists generally for the reunification of Ireland, if this is the case?

I'd also want to hear what the general consensus here is on Irish Reunification or not, so I'm interested to hear your views.

[SourDonughts]

Ian Paisley approves of this question.

[Fog On The Tyne]

I couldn't really care about Ian Paisley to be honest, but I think, inadvertently, Ian Paisley is giving Socialism a better chance in Northern Ireland. I don't think they'd nearly have the same sovereignty under Irish rule than they do now.

[Philosophical Materialist]

The Northern Ireland statelet was never successfully socially integrated with England, Scotland and Wales. For much of Partition, N.I. had its own Prime Minister and political elites from the socially conservative protestant bourgeoisie.

Even as mainland Britain had nominally reformist-socialist Labour governments, this did not benefit the people of N.I. due to its colonial nature. British governments of various Liberal, Tory and Labour stripes tacitly backed the brutal political elites of N.I. along with its policies of religious apartheid and disenfranchisement of catholic residents.

Ireland is more socially conservative than Great Britain due to historical reasons, but it must be pointed out that this is especially true of Irish protestantism of the Paisley-Orange Order variety which historically dominated the political circles of the colony.

The continuation of Partition entrenched a socially conservative hierarchy within the 6-county state, with Partition itself bearing no progressive characteristics. While the 26-county republic had a socially conservative politics of its own, it was less marked by religious segregation than the northern state despite its hitherto close ties with the Roman Catholic Church.

While in some cases, Britain is more socially progressive than the 26-county republic, one must bear in mind that the republic is more socially progressive than Britain's 6-county statelet in the North. There isn't a choice for the six counties between a more socially-conservative Ireland and a more socially-liberal Britain. The choice is between a continuation of partition in a segregated, socially-conservative colony, and the alternative which is the end to partition and a military occupation.

[Redmau5]

Ian Paisley is giving Socialism a better chance in Northern Ireland.

How did you come to that conclusion?

[Fog On The Tyne]

The Northern Ireland statelet was never successfully socially integrated with England, Scotland and Wales. For much of Partition, N.I. had its own Prime Minister and political elites from the socially conservative protestant bourgeoisie.

Even as mainland Britain had nominally reformist-socialist Labour governments, this did not benefit the people of N.I. due to its colonial nature. British governments of various Liberal, Tory and Labour stripes tacitly backed the brutal political elites of N.I. along with its policies of religious apartheid and disenfranchisement of catholic residents.

Ireland is more socially conservative than Great Britain due to historical reasons, but it must be pointed out that this is especially true of Irish protestantism of the Paisley-Orange Order variety which historically dominated the political circles of the colony.

The continuation of Partition entrenched a socially conservative hierarchy within the 6-county state, with Partition itself bearing no progressive characteristics. While the 26-county republic had a socially conservative politics of its own, it was less marked by religious segregation than the northern state despite its hitherto close ties with the Roman Catholic Church.

While in some cases, Britain is more socially progressive than the 26-county republic, one must bear in mind that the republic is more socially progressive than Britain's 6-county statelet in the North. There isn't a choice for the six counties between a more socially-conservative Ireland and a more socially-liberal Britain. The choice is between a continuation of partition in a segregated, socially-conservative colony, and the alternative which is the end to partition and a military occupation.

That wasn't quite the issue I was bringing up, though. If, as you say, Social Conservatism or Social Liberalism is not the issue, then why does Sinn Fein go with the pretence of Socialism? Wouldn't it then be futile, if not contradictory? Also, NI reunifying will consequently lose it's sovereignty, towards a more Socially Conservative country, which means advocating Socialism against a stronger opposing wind. Is this not just an instance of faux identity politics we're seeing here?

If the Northern Irish people keep thinking of this as an "occupational sense" or whatever, then they won't ever hope to shed themselves of any Social Conservatism. Irish reunification, by the looks of it, won't ease the religious divide there, lose voices and power, and will also have more Socially Conservative policies IMPOSED upon them (Their health care is the only system in the EU where you have to pay for a GP, unless you have one of two health cards)

[Fog On The Tyne]

How did you come to that conclusion?

Reunifying with Ireland will mean losing it's sovereignty to a less Socialist and more Socially Conservative country.

[cb9's_unity]

I am not an expert on Great Britain or Ireland but I can assure you that in no way are either of them socialist or even socialistic. Both are steadfastly capitalist. Remember that welfare capitalism doesn't equal socialism in any form.

[Pogue]

I'm sorry, but I don't comprehend the idea of a 'less socialist' or 'more socially conservative' nation.

[Fog On The Tyne]

I am not an expert on Great Britain or Ireland but I can assure you that in no way are either of them socialist or even socialistic. Both are steadfastly capitalist. Remember that welfare capitalism doesn't equal socialism in any form.

You'd be very wrong in thinking that, then; the NHS is a fine example of a Socialistic institution. The Beveridge Report, via the excellent services of Labour have made post-war reforms which have made the standard of living in the UK FAR better than previous

[Pogue]

You'd be very wrong in thinking that, then; the NHS is a fine example of a Socialistic institution. The Beveridge Report, via the excellent services of Labour have made post-war reforms which have made the standard of living in the UK FAR better than previous

Thats not socialism. It is public ownership (state run, funded through taxes)- nationalisation. I don't think it makes a country more socialistic, although its definately a good thing that should be defended.

[Fog On The Tyne]

I'm sorry, but I don't comprehend the idea of a 'less socialist' or 'more socially conservative' nation.

Since politics are complex, governments are never totally the one system. Almost every government is a complex hybrid of elements which attribute to Socialism or Free Marketism etc. We have more of these Socialistic features than Ireland, as I've mentioned when coming to health care

[Redmau5]

Since politics are complex, governments are never totally the one system. Almost every government is a complex hybrid of elements which attribute to Socialism or Free Marketism etc. We have more of these Socialistic features than Ireland, as I've mentioned when coming to health care

And do you think that workers in the Republic of Ireland are opposed to public health care?

[Fog On The Tyne]

And do you think that workers in the Republic of Ireland are opposed to public health care?

Well, they already have public health care there, actually; it's more of a single payer reimbursement model though, as opposed to our Beveridge model, which is more Socialistic in nature, since fees, except via taxes, are not involved.

[Redmau5]

Well, they already have public health care there, actually; it's more of a single payer reimbursement model though, as opposed to our Beveridge model, which is more Socialistic in nature, since fees, except via taxes, are not involved.

Exactly. So you're basing the revolutionary potential of the working-class on which particular health-care model they have?

[Fog On The Tyne]

Thats not socialism. It is public ownership (state run, funded through taxes)- nationalisation. I don't think it makes a country more socialistic, although its definately a good thing that should be defended.

Well, not really, as Universities and Community Colleges in the USA are funded via taxes, yet still often ask for an out of pocket fee. You can hardly call them services public ownership, which is actually Socialism. Our NHS is maintained by the government, hires the workers, maintains the buildings, and gives free services.

[Fog On The Tyne]

Exactly. So you're basing the revolutionary potential of the working-class on which particular health-care model they have?

Wow, way to make a conclusion on a completely LSD induced premise. I was talking about the Social elements or Ireland being more Conservative than the UK's. Nobody mentioned revolution (lulz), and I wasn't even initially talking about the Irish people, but their government.

[Fog On The Tyne]

By the way, just to add, the NHS Beveridge model actually isn't welfare.

[gorillafuck]

I'm sorry, but I don't comprehend the idea of a 'less socialist' or 'more socially conservative' nation.
I think he means a country that has less conservative social views (like a country where abortion is illegal would be more socially conservative than one where abortion is legal)

[Fog On The Tyne]

I think he means a country that has less conservative social views (like a country where abortion is illegal would be more socially conservative than one where abortion is legal)

Yes, exactly

[ComradeOm]

I think he means a country that has less conservative social views (like a country where abortion is illegal would be more socially conservative than one where abortion is legal)In short, a baseless stereotype

[Pogue]

In short, a baseless stereotype

This is what I mean. I don't see how you can say a whole nation, made up of numerous social groups, is 'more conservative' than another.

[Fog On The Tyne]

This is what I mean. I don't see how you can say a whole nation, made up of numerous social groups, is 'more conservative' than another.

Not really, as policies have certain elements to them which sway towards one way or the other. Talking about the country is based on it's policy; talking about the populace is an entirely different issue.

[cb9's_unity]

You'd be very wrong in thinking that, then; the NHS is a fine example of a Socialistic institution. The Beveridge Report, via the excellent services of Labour have made post-war reforms which have made the standard of living in the UK FAR better than previous

You have a very poor understanding of what socialism is. Socialism is no way reforms or progressive actions within capitalism. Socialism is a total reordering of society that is completely devoid of a free market.

Your confusion is the result of the mainstreams reckless use of the word socialism. The actual policies that are called socialist have never been proposed by true socialists. Instead they came from capitalist reformers who needed ways to save capitalism.

[gorillafuck]

In short, a baseless stereotype
It is a too simplistic way of thinking, but it doesn't flat out "not make sense"

[brigadista]

Well, not really, as Universities and Community Colleges in the USA are funded via taxes, yet still often ask for an out of pocket fee. You can hardly call them services public ownership, which is actually Socialism. Our NHS is maintained by the government, hires the workers, maintains the buildings, and gives free services.
no it doesnt - it tenders out to private contractors in many areas of work -eg domestic work - there is very little blue collar work in the NHS that is direct labour these days

and health trusts now have to compete with each other and what about the private public partnership? THe NHS is currently being run down to justify privatisation on the US model

[Revy]

Actually, Sinn Fein puts on a conservative face (http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/sinn-feins-marriages-of-financial-convenience-129436.html) outside of Ireland, mainly in the US, to appeal to its financial backers there.

[Killfacer]

This is what I mean. I don't see how you can say a whole nation, made up of numerous social groups, is 'more conservative' than another.

Thats not really entirely true. I think it's possible to say that on the whole different countries and their populations hold different veiws. For example in many respects a country like the netherlands (stereotpye i know) is more socially liberal than say the USA or Afghanistan.

[khad]

Hello all, I'm new here, so I thought I'd start off with a question that's bothering me.

Why does Sinn Fein, the party with the agenda of Irish reunification within Northern Ireland go with the pretence of Socialism, when reunifying with Ireland would actually mean less chance of a Socialist agenda, as Ireland is generally less Socialistic than the UK?

Also, why are Socialists generally for the reunification of Ireland, if this is the case?

I'd also want to hear what the general consensus here is on Irish Reunification or not, so I'm interested to hear your views.

Who let this time capsule from the Militant in here?

[Sandman]

I also have some questions on the same subject. We have this-'In 1969, British troops had been sent into Northern Ireland ostensibly to keep the peace. Instead, the army was consistently used to intimidate the nationalist community and to suppress the republican forces seeking a united independent Ireland'-from the CPB's 'Road to Socialism'. To me 'republican forces seeking a united Ireland' is the Provisional IRA. These were terrorists who targeted and killed innocent working people in bombing campaigns on mainland Britain and Northern Ireland for years. The way this is written would suggest that the party supports this. Clearly Karl Marx disagreed-' This latest Fenian exploit in Clerkenwell is a great folly. The London masses, who have shown much sympathy for Ireland, will be enraged by it and driven into the arms of the government party. One cannot expect the London proletarians to let themselves be blown up for the benefit of Fenian emissaries. Secret, melodramatic conspiracies of this kind are, in general, more or less doomed to failure.'-from a letter to Engels in 1867. What was the partys attitude to this during 'the troubles'?

[*Red*Alert]

Why does Sinn Fein, the party with the agenda of Irish reunification within Northern Ireland go with the pretence of Socialism, when reunifying with Ireland would actually mean less chance of a Socialist agenda, as Ireland is generally less Socialistic than the UK?
Explain your reasoning behind this, lest you are another troll?


Also, why are Socialists generally for the reunification of Ireland, if this is the case?

I'd also want to hear what the general consensus here is on Irish Reunification or not, so I'm interested to hear your views.
The National Liberation of Ireland from foreign imperialist, and capitalist, rule is an essential requisite for Socialism. The stated objective of ALL Irish Republican groups is the establishment of a 32 County Democratic Socialist Republic.

The common misconception is that the goal is simply reunification with the current unequal 26 County Statelet, as mentioned this is not so. The objective is the complete reshaping of Ireland and the destruction of both "Northern Ireland" and the Free State.

I am not in a position to say what the end model will be, as I'm quiet new to Republican politics, however I imagine it will be somewhat modeled on "Eire Nua (http://www.rsf.ie/eirenua.htm)", the now dropped strategy that was blueprint in the 1970s up until the mid 1980s. I imagine this will be more out of necessity than any convenience.

Note to Cael: If you see this, it means I am partially advocating Eire Nua.

[Cael]

The UK by its very nature is a bourgeois imperialist construct. You can talk about setting up English Socialist movements, or Scottish or Welsh. But British no. Because Britain is not a country - its an imperialist construct.

[Hoggy_RS]

I couldn't really care about Ian Paisley to be honest, but I think, inadvertently, Ian Paisley is giving Socialism a better chance in Northern Ireland. I don't think they'd nearly have the same sovereignty under Irish rule than they do now.
You must be taking the piss? So you think Ian Paisley is helping the cause of socialism in the North and you defend the British state as being 'socialistic'? Baffling stuff from a leftist.

I don't see how socialism would come quicker if the north stayed part of the British empire. Just because Ireland has a conservative government doesen't mean it won't be possbile achieve socialism. It is the working class who will rise up to achieve socialism, it will not be brought about by any of the eejits in government.

Also I wouldn't think that the British and Irish Govts differ too much in their policies. They are both strongly centerist.

[PRC-UTE]

The Northern Ireland statelet was never successfully socially integrated with England, Scotland and Wales. For much of Partition, N.I. had its own Prime Minister and political elites from the socially conservative protestant bourgeoisie.

Even as mainland Britain had nominally reformist-socialist Labour governments, this did not benefit the people of N.I. due to its colonial nature. British governments of various Liberal, Tory and Labour stripes tacitly backed the brutal political elites of N.I. along with its policies of religious apartheid and disenfranchisement of catholic residents.

Ireland is more socially conservative than Great Britain due to historical reasons, but it must be pointed out that this is especially true of Irish protestantism of the Paisley-Orange Order variety which historically dominated the political circles of the colony.

The continuation of Partition entrenched a socially conservative hierarchy within the 6-county state, with Partition itself bearing no progressive characteristics. While the 26-county republic had a socially conservative politics of its own, it was less marked by religious segregation than the northern state despite its hitherto close ties with the Roman Catholic Church.

While in some cases, Britain is more socially progressive than the 26-county republic, one must bear in mind that the republic is more socially progressive than Britain's 6-county statelet in the North. There isn't a choice for the six counties between a more socially-conservative Ireland and a more socially-liberal Britain. The choice is between a continuation of partition in a segregated, socially-conservative colony, and the alternative which is the end to partition and a military occupation.

Very good post.

To follow up on Philosophical Materialist's point: the kinds of reforms Britain had were deeply resisted in the six counties, which lags significantly behind Britain. When education reforms were adopted in the six counties, this helped fuel Catholic demands for more reforms in turn through the civil rights movement, which was bloodily repressed.

[PRC-UTE]

Reunifying with Ireland will mean losing it's sovereignty to a less Socialist and more Socially Conservative country.

It's interesting that you keep asserting that Ireland is more conservative. In what way do you mean? How do you measure this? I am suspecting that you have a closet problem with Catholics or Irishness or at least are entertaining some stereotypes of us.

I'm not sure for instance where you get your information that Britain is more socialistic. The 26 county state has much more generous dole than Britain does, over three times more generous. I don't think that makes Ireland 'more socialistic' or whatever, but I don't see how it's really more conservative

[Fog On The Tyne]

You have a very poor understanding of what socialism is. Socialism is no way reforms or progressive actions within capitalism. Socialism is a total reordering of society that is completely devoid of a free market.

Uhm, where's the free market in the NHS, you moron? Private insurance companies here are laughably small. They don't even offer it to individuals in companies; most reject them.


Your confusion is the result of the mainstreams reckless use of the word socialism. The actual policies that are called socialist have never been proposed by true socialists. Instead they came from capitalist reformers who needed ways to save capitalism.

Ah, of course, piss all over the excellent work of Labour to help the people and slander all the post-war reforms to help individuals. Disgusting cretin

[Fog On The Tyne]

no it doesnt - it tenders out to private contractors in many areas of work -eg domestic work - there is very little blue collar work in the NHS that is direct labour these days

and health trusts now have to compete with each other and what about the private public partnership? THe NHS is currently being run down to justify privatisation on the US model

You clearly haven't been in the UK for too long. The US model is thoroughly despised here, as recent events have PROVEN. And good, too

[Fog On The Tyne]

Explain your reasoning behind this, lest you are another troll?

Had you have a functioning capacity to read, you would have seen I had already answered this.



The National Liberation of Ireland from foreign imperialist, and capitalist, rule is an essential requisite for Socialism. The stated objective of ALL Irish Republican groups is the establishment of a 32 County Democratic Socialist Republic.

Wow, this sums up your comprehension skills in a nutshell: precisely zilch. If you'd skip the idiotic, baseless stereotypes cooked up by bigots and wannabe revolutionaries, who have no experience of The Troubles in NI, you'd realise that Ireland is a very Conservative nation. Oh, that's right, it seems like on here, anyone will throw a violent movement to overthrow current establishments, even if they're indigenous, bigoted nationalists,


The common misconception is that the goal is simply reunification with the current unequal 26 County Statelet, as mentioned this is not so. The objective is the complete reshaping of Ireland and the destruction of both "Northern Ireland" and the Free State.

I'm well aware of this, which is why I'm against the NI people losing their SOVEREIGNTY to a Conservative country.


I am not in a position to say what the end model will be, as I'm quiet new to Republican politics

You really didn't need to state this

[Fog On The Tyne]

You must be taking the piss? So you think Ian Paisley is helping the cause of socialism in the North and you defend the British state as being 'socialistic'? Baffling stuff from a leftist.

Not really, as all true Socialists (Not people who just want to arbitrarily overthrow any construct in sight) would agree with me. That's why Socialism is so well supported by the working areas of the UK


I don't see how socialism would come quicker if the north stayed part of the British empire. Just because Ireland has a conservative government doesen't mean it won't be possbile achieve socialism.

I didn't state this, but I merely said it would be HARDER.


It is the working class who will rise up to achieve socialism, it will not be brought about by any of the eejits in government.

They're not mutually exclusive at all; look at that fine man, Alan Johnson

[Fog On The Tyne]

It's interesting that you keep asserting that Ireland is more conservative. In what way do you mean? How do you measure this? I am suspecting that you have a closet problem with Catholics or Irishness or at least are entertaining some stereotypes of us.

Ah, was just waiting for some moron to come along with an inferiority complex. And, I've already stated this shit TIME and TIME again as to why Ireland is more Conservative. Fuck me, what happened to English classes all of a sudden? Comprehension not taught, nowadays?


I'm not sure for instance where you get your information that Britain is more socialistic.

We ARE Socialistic by far, AS PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED


The 26 county state has much more generous dole than Britain does, over three times more generous. I don't think that makes Ireland 'more socialistic' or whatever, but I don't see how it's really more conservative

Assuming you're referring to welfare, welfare is NOT socialism, at all. Funny how you buy into a completely right wing myth about welfare. SOME REVOLUTIONARY!

[Revy]

I don't get it, you think Labour is building socialism? That is so out of touch with reality.
Calling people "disgusting cretins" is troll behavior.

[*Red*Alert]

Wow, this sums up your comprehension skills in a nutshell: precisely zilch. If you'd skip the idiotic, baseless stereotypes cooked up by bigots and wannabe revolutionaries, who have no experience of The Troubles in NI, you'd realise that Ireland is a very Conservative nation. Oh, that's right, it seems like on here, anyone will throw a violent movement to overthrow current establishments, even if they're indigenous, bigoted nationalists,

You've obviously got no intention of seeing things from any other perspective than the way you wish to see them and have a clearly one-sided view of the whole affair.

Socialism is well supported in working areas of the UK? :rolleyes: And it's not in working area of Ireland, both North and South? Pull the other one, you miserable tosser.

I don't get it, you think Labour is building socialism? That is so out of touch with reality. Calling people "disgusting cretins" is troll behavior.
Obviously this yoke left reality ALONG time ago.

[Fog On The Tyne]

I don't get it, you think Labour is building socialism? That is so out of touch with reality.

They've already built it, and are continuing to maintain it despite a current economic crisis. I doubt most here would do that; seemingly, throwing molotovs and joining bigoted, ethnic nationalist movements (See the thread about the Basque)



Calling people "disgusting cretins" is troll behavior.

So is besmirching some of the finest achievements for civilisation

[SourDonughts]

Taffy was a Welshman, Taffy was a thief;Taffy came to my house and stole a piece of beef;I went to Taffy's house, Taffy wasn't in;I jumped upon his Sunday hat and poked it with a pin......

[Fog On The Tyne]

You've obviously got no intention of seeing things from any other perspective than the way you wish to see them and have a clearly one-sided view of the whole affair.

Blimey, talk about mirror talk not directed to a mirror. You need to get RIGHT back to one

Socialism is well supported in working areas of the UK? :rolleyes: And it's not in working area of Ireland, both North and South?

File under: ad-hominem


Pull the other one, you miserable tosser.

File under: ad-hominem and piss poor insult


Obviously this yoke left reality ALONG time ago.

File under: ad-hominem, piss poor insult, and incorrect spelling/grammar

[*Red*Alert]

Blimey, talk about mirror talk not directed to a mirror. You need to get RIGHT back to one


File under: ad-hominem



File under: ad-hominem and piss poor insult



File under: ad-hominem, piss poor insult, and incorrect spelling/grammar

It was actually I who made those comments for clarity. No love lost though.

[Fog On The Tyne]

Taffy was a Welshman, Taffy was a thief;Taffy came to my house and stole a piece of beef;I went to Taffy's house, Taffy wasn't in;I jumped upon his Sunday hat and poked it with a pin......

Taffy was a Welshman, Taffy was a shame; Taffy came to my house and stole a piece of lamb; I went to Taffy's house, Taffy was away, I stuffed his socks with sawdust and filled his shoes with clay......

(That takes me back @[email protected])

[Fog On The Tyne]

It was actually I who made those comments for clarity. No love lost though.


Edited as apt

[SourDonughts]

Taffy was a Welshman, Taffy was a shame; Taffy came to my house and stole a piece of lamb; I went to Taffy's house, Taffy was away, I stuffed his socks with sawdust and filled his shoes with clay......

(That takes me back @[email protected])

Fog my boy, you always knew how to break out a tune!

Taffy was a Welshman, Taffy was a cheat!!!,Taffy came to my house, and stole a piece of meat;I went to Taffy's house, Taffy not there,I hung his coat and trousers to roast before a fire

[Fog On The Tyne]

And as of now, still no answer to my initial query, other than ONE person telling me they put on a different face. Interesting

"FREE EIRE", they say! "Let this green land be ONE!"

One landmass of misery is not better. Strong people rise up in their enclosed areas, and change things for the better.

Regards

[SourDonughts]

And as of now, still no answer to my initial query, other than ONE person telling me they put on a different face. Interesting

"FREE EIRE", they say! "Let this green land be ONE!"

One landmass of misery is not better. Strong people rise up in their enclosed areas, and change things for the better.

Regards

The Union's got better health care and food anyway, I say stick with it!

[PRC-UTE]

Ah, was just waiting for some moron to come along with an inferiority complex. And, I've already stated this shit TIME and TIME again as to why Ireland is more Conservative. Fuck me, what happened to English classes all of a sudden? Comprehension not taught, nowadays?



We ARE Socialistic by far, AS PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED

Questioning my comprehension skillz while writing like that is good for the lulz



Assuming you're referring to welfare, welfare is NOT socialism, at all. Funny how you buy into a completely right wing myth about welfare. SOME REVOLUTIONARY!

You're obviously trolling. Britain isn't more socialist than any other capitalist state.

Let's put it this way: who owns the means of production, distribution and exchange in Britain?

[Fog On The Tyne]

The Union's got better health care and food anyway, I say stick with it!

Quite right.

An archer does not advocate for a stronger wind during target practice, yes?

That's what these faux Socialists advocate.

Speaking of which, did you know that Gerry Adams attended Obama's inauguration via invite of Congressman Richard Neal?

Meeting his "Socialist" brothers LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

[SourDonughts]

Let's put it this way: who owns the means of production, distribution and exchange in Britain?

Better not be those catholics!!!

[SourDonughts]

Quite right.

An archer does not advocate for a stronger wind during target practice, yes?

That's what these faux Socialists advocate.

Speaking of which, did you know that Gerry Adams attended Obama's inauguration via invite of Congressman Richard Neal?

Meeting his "Socialist" brothers LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

I see Sinn Fein and their republican brothers are typically falling into the laps of their American masters again!

[PRC-UTE]

Better not be those catholics!!!

It's all a Papist plot! :lol:

[*Red*Alert]

Speaking of which, did you know that Gerry Adams attended Obama's inauguration via invite of Congressman Richard Neal?
Obviously, Provisional Sinn Fein is an reformist party. That's not at stake here really, but your bigotry is.

You fail to deal with other republican groups, which like most Unionists, you know nothing about.

[Fog On The Tyne]

Questioning my comprehension skillz while writing like that is good for the lulz

Your authority and ability to infer is a stunning fuck all squared. There's nothing the comments you quoted which is comprehensively incorrect.



You're obviously trolling. Britain isn't more socialist than any other capitalist state.

Came out of the hall of mirrors a little confused, did we?

Apes and humans are the only ones supposedly capable of telling a reflection. Telling


Let's put it this way: who owns the means of production, distribution and exchange in Britain?

You're going off the point, somewhat. Nice try.

[Fog On The Tyne]

Obviously, Provisional Sinn Fein is an reformist party. That's not at stake here really, but your bigotry is.

A clown is here to entertain; not cry the terror of bigotry on another. You're deviating from your job, here.



You fail to deal with other republican groups, which like most Unionists, you know nothing about.

The thread was about Sinn Fein. Comprende?

[SourDonughts]

Obviously, Provisional Sinn Fein is an reformist party. That's not at stake here really, but your bigotry is.

You fail to deal with other republican groups, which like most Unionists, you know nothing about.

Irish republicans are like the UKIP, all fruitcakes, loopers, and closet racists.

[Coggeh]

Hello all, I'm new here, so I thought I'd start off with a question that's bothering me.

Why does Sinn Fein, the party with the agenda of Irish reunification within Northern Ireland go with the pretence of Socialism, when reunifying with Ireland would actually mean less chance of a Socialist agenda, as Ireland is generally less Socialistic than the UK?

Sinn Fein aren't socialists . They spout on about supporting the working class in the south but then attack workers in the north . For example before they got into government they were against water charges now wearing the butchers apron they support the idea of water charges , they supported a loyalist sectarian police force , they attacked classroom assistants wages and conditions , they firmly believe in supporting multinational companies and lower taxes for them such as IKEA who came in not so long ago .Sinn Fein have absolutly no aim of ever pushing for socialism .



Also, why are Socialists generally for the reunification of Ireland, if this is the case?

I'd also want to hear what the general consensus here is on Irish Reunification or not, so I'm interested to hear your views.
Northern Ireland is a victim of british imperialism and like with the issue of palestine we are against all capitalist imperialism .

Also Ireland has a huge history of socialist movements like britain and even now with revolutionary socialists making huge gains electorally such as the socialist parties success in gaining 7 councillors and the MEP for dublin along with indepenant socialists winning seats and PBP(people before profit) also making great gains . There is a huge basis for a strong revolutionary leftist movement in the future in Ireland and will undoubtably grow if Ireland is reunified .

Though reunification is not a pretence for socialism, liberation of northern ireland is not a primary component in establishing socialism in either the south or the north and never has been .Though we still agree that the liberation of northern ireland and the national question of the north is supported .

[F9]

Great great, do we have some trolls here?
Fog On The Tyne&SourDonughts you have been issued with a verbal warning for trolling.Stop or further administrative action will take place.If you dont have something to add on the thread, dont post.

[Fog On The Tyne]

For some reason, my quoting seems to confuse certain users for others. Perhaps I neglected to copy and paste.

Regards

[*Red*Alert]

Irish republicans are like the UKIP, all fruitcakes, loopers, and closet racists.
Pot. Kettle. Black.

Combat 18 is aligned to which Northern paramilitaries?

[Fog On The Tyne]

Great great, do we have some trolls here?
Fog On The Tyne&SourDonughts you have been issued with a verbal warning for trolling.Stop or further administrative action will take place.If you dont have something to add on the thread, dont post.

An anarchist that does not like dissent? How peculiar!

[SourDonughts]

Sinn Fein aren't socialists . They spout on about supporting the working class in the south but then attack workers in the north . For example before they got into government they were against water charges now wearing the butchers apron they support the idea of water charges , they supported a loyalist sectarian police force , they attacked classroom assistants wages and conditions , they firmly believe in supporting multinational companies and lower taxes for them such as IKEA who came in not so long ago .Sinn Fein have absolutly no aim of ever pushing for socialism .


Northern Ireland is a victim of british imperialism and like with the issue of palestine we are against all capitalist imperialism .

Also Ireland has a huge history of socialist movements like britain and even now with revolutionary socialists making huge gains electorally such as the socialist parties success in gaining 7 councillors and the MEP for dublin along with indepenant socialists winning seats and PBP(people before profit) also making great gains . There is a huge basis for a strong revolutionary leftist movement in the future in Ireland and will undoubtably grow if Ireland is reunified .

Though reunification is not a pretence for socialism, liberation of northern ireland is not a primary component in establishing socialism in either the south or the north and never has been .Though we still agree that the liberation of northern ireland and the national question of the north is supported .

Sorry, but as a fighter against republican irish imperialism myself, I can attest that most Northern Irish want nothing to do with your socialist republic, as evident with the DUP continuously winning.

Cheers

[Coggeh]

Sorry, but as a fighter against republican irish imperialism myself, I can attest that most Northern Irish want nothing to do with your socialist republic, as evident with the DUP continuously winning.

Cheers
Get a hobby.

[F9]

An anarchist that does not like dissent? How peculiar!

:rolleyes::lol: There is a difference in dissent from trolling!If you want to answer me, dont use this thread, use pm..I already told you not to post unless you have something to add on topic.

[PRC-UTE]

You're going off the point, somewhat. Nice try.

I'm not off topic at all. I'm responding to your rubbish line that the union with Britain puts Ireland closer to socialism. The idea that one capitalist state can be "more socialistic" than another capitalist state is a position this forum views as reactionary and inherently contrary to revolutionary politics. Social Democracy is a failed ideology that historically has opened the door for fascism, as you have so helpfully illustrated by attracting this Paisleyite (assuming this poster isn't a troll, which I suspect).

[Fog On The Tyne]

Sinn Fein aren't socialists . They spout on about supporting the working class in the south but then attack workers in the north . For example before they got into government they were against water charges now wearing the butchers apron they support the idea of water charges , they supported a loyalist sectarian police force , they attacked classroom assistants wages and conditions , they firmly believe in supporting multinational companies and lower taxes for them such as IKEA who came in not so long ago .Sinn Fein have absolutly no aim of ever pushing for socialism

This is true

Sinn Fein, like most NI parties, are fuelled with the petrol of separatism and bigotry.

My regards

*****

[SourDonughts]

Get a hobby.

No rebuttal eh? Interesting, as I already have a hobby, fighting republican Irish imperialism.

[PRC-UTE]

No rebuttal eh? Interesting, as I already have a hobby, fighting republican Irish imperialism.

How do you fight it?

[*Red*Alert]

No rebuttal eh? Interesting, as I already have a hobby, fighting republican Irish imperialism.
Paisleyite sell out, ye're in bed with the taigs!

[Coggeh]

Paisleyite sell out, ye're in bed with the taigs!
And your in bed with the paisleyites . ;)

[*Red*Alert]

And your in bed with the paisleyites . ;)
At least you CWI fellas and the dissidents can now appreciate what Gerry and Marty have to put up with!

[SourDonughts]

How do you fight it?

Obviously better than the IRA did, because we won. I love this beautiful Union.

[PRC-UTE]

And your in bed with the paisleyites . ;)

They're like that old couple that are always after fighting, yet can't live without one another

[Coggeh]

At least you CWI fellas and the dissidents can now appreciate what Gerry and Marty have to put up with!
Seems they like it . They've been putting up with it happily for a while now .

[PRC-UTE]

Obviously better than the IRA did, because we won. I love this beautiful Union.

Let me guess what you were going to say next...

'We're not Brazil...'

[SourDonughts]

Paisleyite sell out, ye're in bed with the taigs!

Better the Union than the Fenian bastards

[SourDonughts]

Let me guess what you were going to say next...

'We're not Brazil...'

I have no interest in Brazil myself. Too catholic for my tastes.

[*Red*Alert]

Seems they like it . They've been putting up with it happily for a while now .
Personally I'd say anyone who's in the Assembly is into BDSM. And agree with the CWI's assessment of the bourgeoisie nature of it. ;) I'm not a great fan of the current strategy but compared to the CWI's idea of forming a federation of the working class with ****s like the above, I'd rather another 800 years of bloodletting.

[*Red*Alert]

I have no interest in Brazil myself. Too catholic for my tastes.
http://img.timeinc.net/time/daily/2007/0705/northern_ireland0509.jpg

[SourDonughts]

http://img.timeinc.net/time/daily/2007/0705/northern_ireland0509.jpg
Brazil is a puppet state to the catholic American world order, fuck it.

[*Red*Alert]

Last I checked, I am not Paisley, he can have an interest in Brazil all he wants, I for one, have none!
You obviously endorse him though, and the DUP collaborators? Not very "for God and Ulster", is it?

[khad]

Sorry, but as a fighter against republican irish imperialism myself
Funny. Aren't most loyalist paramilitary kills these days other loyalist paramilitaries? :rolleyes:

[SourDonughts]

You obviously endorse him though, and the DUP collaborators? Not very "for God and Ulster", is it?

Interesting term, collaborators. Can one collaborate with a "perceived enemy" when that "perceived enemy" is in fact, supported by a majority in their homeland? That would really make it, interactions with a friend or at least, trusted ally. Is this some fucked up case of identity politics played yet again by the socialist republican stooges?

[SourDonughts]

Funny. Aren't most loyalist paramilitary kills these days other loyalist paramilitaries? :rolleyes:

Never heard this before? Where are you getting this from? We certainly kill any that collaborate with the republican imperialists.

[PRC-UTE]

Never heard this before? Where are you getting this from? We certainly kill any that collaborate with the republican imperialists.

We're his getting this from? Em, my sunday morning hangover vomit has more cohesion than the UDA.

[*Red*Alert]

Seems the little bollocks has grown tired of this thread and prefers to derail a thread about our revolutionary comrades.

[OneNamedNameLess]

Better the Union than the Fenian bastards

Your a disgusting bigot who should fuck off! Oh yeah, take your pal Soup with you. Your the friend who had a white power march in your area? Soup has the word nigga in his sig and is so fascinated by the word he started a thread on it. On top of that he announced that he thinks he is homophobic. Have a look at their posts poeple. I suggest a double ban :cool:

[SourDonughts]

Your a disgusting bigot who should fuck off! Oh yeah, take your pal Soup with you. Your the friend who had a white power march in your area? Soup has the word nigga in his sig and is so fascinated by the word he started a thread on it. On top of that he announced that he thinks he is homophobic. Have a look at their posts poeple. I suggest a double ban :cool:

Who is Soup? Who has "nigga" in his sig, and who is homophobic? What the hell are you talking about?

Seek help.

[Mindtoaster]

Better the Union than the Fenian bastards

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdnLbfnRvlA

[SourDonughts]

IdnLbfnRvlA

I love my Irish Socialist Republican stooge propaganda in the morning.

For God and Ulster,

Cheers

[Hoggy_RS]

Not really, as all true Socialists (Not people who just want to arbitrarily overthrow any construct in sight) would agree with me. That's why Socialism is so well supported by the working areas of the UK



I didn't state this, but I merely said it would be HARDER.



They're not mutually exclusive at all; look at that fine man, Alan Johnson

you are a joke. Your mate has already showed himself to be a bigot and I imagine your the same. You claim all true socialists support a racist bigot(Ian Paisley) and belive that he(even though he is a right-winger) will bring about socialism? This can only be the logic of a knuckle dragging fascist. Get back over to stormfront, i'm sure they miss you.

[FreeNornIron]

you are a joke. Your mate has already showed himself to be a bigot and I imagine your the same. You claim all true socialists support a racist bigot(Ian Paisley) and belive that he(even though he is a right-winger) will bring about socialism? This can only be the logic of a knuckle dragging fascist. Get back over to stormfront, i'm sure they miss you.

When will you muppets learn that Ulster wants nothing to do with your "socialist republic"? What about the idea of "self determination" don't you assholes get?

For God and Ulster,

Cheers

[Revy]

When will you muppets learn that Ulster wants nothing to do with your "socialist republic"? What about the idea of "self determination" don't you assholes get?

For God and Ulster,

Cheers

You created a new account just to tell us that?
How pathetic....

[FreeNornIron]

You created a new account just to tell us that?
How pathetic....

Just keeping up the fight against the socialist republican stooge imperialism of the Fenian twats.

For God and Ulster,

Cheers

[Revy]

I propose that we close this thread.
It has not generated much sane discussion, and now we have trolls and sockpuppet accounts shouting slurs like "Fenian".

[FreeNornIron]

I propose that we close this thread.
It has not generated much sane discussion, and now we have trolls and sockpuppet accounts shouting slurs like "Fenian".

Fenian is no more a slur than your constant railing against the capitalists of your despised "world order". Allow us Northern Irish to remain in the UK in peace, and we have no problem.

For God and Ulster,

Cheers

[Hoggy_RS]

Fenian is no more a slur than your constant railing against the capitalists of your despised "world order". Allow us Northern Irish to remain in the UK in peace, and we have no problem.

For God and Ulster,

Cheers
You're actually not making any sense. I suppose thats the kind of debating skill we can expect from the loyalist scum. Enjoy your ban.

[Holy_Belfast]

You're actually not making any sense. I suppose thats the kind of debating skill we can expect from the loyalist scum. Enjoy your ban.

Still sore that we want nothing to do with your Papist republic? Shame you South of Belfast Irish are such childish savages still. Gives me a laugh though I can say mate. :cool:

For God and Ulster,

Cheers

(P.S. Can't call yourself anti authoritarian when you ban dissenting opinion :lol:)

[RedAnarchist]

Still sore that we want nothing to do with your Papist republic? Shame you South of Belfast Irish are such childish savages still. Gives me a laugh though I can say mate. :cool:

For God and Ulster,

Cheers

(P.S. Can't call yourself anti authoritarian when you ban dissenting opinion :lol:)

Most British want a united Ireland so go fuck yourself, troll.

Not surprisingly, Holy_Belfast is a sockpuppet for SourDoughnuts.

[TheGreatPais]

Most British want a united Ireland so go fuck yourself, troll.

Not surprisingly, Holy_Belfast is a sockpuppet for SourDoughnuts.

Isn't this issue up to the NORTHERN IRISH, and not the British as a whole? Wouldn't that be, imperialism? Ho ho, you Fenian twats are too much!

For God and Ulster,

Cheers

[RedAnarchist]

We're not interested in you or your outdated beliefs. This is the last time you'll be responded to before you get banned.

[Hoggy_RS]

Maybe its best to leave these lads on here so they can continue showing how ignorant loyalists are:lol:

Reminds me of the PULSE forum where they claim that republicanism is a fascist communist ultra catholic conspiracy all rolled into one.:lol:

[The Feral Underclass]

Closed.