Chavez planning to close golf courses

[Comrade B]

I thought this article (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/12/world/americas/12venez.html?ref=world) was pretty interesting, reminds me of the things I like about Chavez.

It cannot be denied that golf is a highly bourgeois and classist sport. The equipment for the sport requires a great deal of money, and the amount of land taken up for the sport is disgusting.
As opposed to baseball or soccer fields golf courses require the players to pay to join a club which owns the course, preventing the players from having to 'deal with' lower classes.

Let us hope this change goes through and the land is turned into something actually useful for the people of the country.

[BIG BROTHER]

Golf Isn't bad per se, so I think they should just expropriate the golf courses and allow anyone to play.

Besides that I find this rather funny. I can imagine all those cappies saying "WTF NO MORE GOLF?!:cursing:"

[Comrade B]

I don't think there is a need for more than one golf course in a city where so many people are already impoverished, if there is one, definitely they should provide gear and open up the courses to the public.

[cyu]

Golf Isn't bad per se, so I think they should just expropriate the golf courses and allow anyone to play.

Besides that I find this rather funny. I can imagine all those cappies saying "WTF NO MORE GOLF?!:cursing:"

Agreed - personally, I think if you just allow the electorate to control resource allocation, then it would just be up to voters whether they want more spending on golf courses or more spending on, say, agriculture, parks, homes, bike / skate / rock climbing areas, whatever...

The main problem with golf courses is that under a capitalist system, the rich have many more votes (ie. money) in the market, thus they get to determine how economic resources are allocated - resulting in lots of crap dedicated to serving only the oppressive minority.

[bricolage]

Golf Isn't bad per se, so I think they should just expropriate the golf courses and allow anyone to play.

Besides that I find this rather funny. I can imagine all those cappies saying "WTF NO MORE GOLF?!:cursing:"

Yep.

I think the issue of sport and the left is a strange and interesting one. It sometimes seems that people can be criticised or commended for playing or being interested in particular sports. Whilst golf is predominantly played by wealthy individuals, if a working class person saves enough money to buy some clubs and play the game we shouldn't criticise them. Personally I have no interest in golf but that's because I think it's fucking boring.

I'm also beginning to see this with the EDL issue where they are constantly branded football hooligans (largely true) and sometimes just football fans, this seems to be implying that there is something inherently bad or right wing about the sport. I've also heard people in the past say football is bad because it encourages competition between people and divides the working class by club and pits them against each other. To me this is ridiculous.

[Delirium]

I think a golf courses should be shut down, they are a terrible waste of land, petrochemicals, and labor. Also they generally use massive amounts of pesticides and fertilizers which run of and pollute the local water shed.

For example, a lake about a mile of where i grew up would have a huge algae bloom each spring which basically killed off most of the marine wildlife and made the lake nasty to swim in.

[bricolage]

I think a golf courses should be shut down, they are a terrible waste of land,

What about football pitches? Swimming pools? Cinemas? Theatres? Concert Halls? They could all quite conceivably be called a waste of land.


petrochemicals, and labor. Also they generally use massive amounts of pesticides and fertilizers which run of and pollute the local water shed.

I wasn't aware of this but to me it is a legitimate argument against golf courses however I'd guess, and I'm not sure about this, there would probably be a way to run a golf course in a more environmentally sustainable way, in the same way that many factories pollute heavily today but could be run in a way where they did not.

The thing is it's hard to not get excited at things like this, we, myself included, can't help but feel good about some rich Venezuelans not being able to play golf tomorrow but we have to look beyond that and ask is there actually something inherently bad about golf itself?

[JimmyJazz]

I think a golf courses should be shut down, they are a terrible waste of land, petrochemicals, and labor. Also they generally use massive amounts of pesticides and fertilizers which run of and pollute the local water shed.

I think it should be democratically decided and not left up to you or to Chavez. I would give you and Chavez equal votes with everyone else, naturally.

[bleh]

George Carlin had a funny rant about golf

[Comrade B]

What about football pitches? Swimming pools? Cinemas? Theatres? Concert Halls? They could all quite conceivably be called a waste of land.
Sports fields are open to the public, or are spectator sports which large numbers of people can come to see (and should be able to see free), swimming pools, cinemas, theaters and concert halls can all be opened up publicly as well,
also, they all take up a great deal less land than a golf course.

[bricolage]

Sports fields are open to the public, or are spectator sports which large numbers of people can come to see (and should be able to see free), swimming pools, cinemas, theaters and concert halls can all be opened up publicly as well,

Golf is a spectator sport too.

http://www.britannica.com/blogs/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/masters.jpg

As it stands golf clubs are elitist and expensive but that does not mean they couldn't be opened to everyone. As I've said there isn't anything inherently bad about golf courses just the way they are structured now.

[Comrade B]

I would say that a big chunk of that crowd is personal friends and relatives, it is nothing like the crowd a football game gathers, and it is also probably ridiculously expensive.

[Mindtoaster]

I think it should be democratically decided and not left up to you or to Chavez. I would give you and Chavez equal votes with everyone else, naturally.

Really?

I think organizing and paying for a massive national election over this would be a colossal waste of time and resources.

[bricolage]

I would say that a big chunk of that crowd is personal friends and relatives, it is nothing like the crowd a football game gathers, and it is also probably ridiculously expensive.

I don't know, I don't follow golf, my point being it is a spectator sport and just because it is elitist at the moment doesn't mean the sport is inherently elitist.

Anyway football is ridiculously expensive now, its cost me 35 quid for a ticket to see my local team and we aren't even that good.

[OneNamedNameLess]

What Chavez proposes to do with the land is great. However, by ranting about golf and attacking the sport he is providivg the international media with another fantastic opportunity to make him look ridiculous. Why cant he just get on with the project and not publicly attack golf?

[Magdalen]

I thought this article (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/12/world/americas/12venez.html?ref=world) was pretty interesting, reminds me of the things I like about Chavez.

It cannot be denied that golf is a highly bourgeois and classist sport. The equipment for the sport requires a great deal of money, and the amount of land taken up for the sport is disgusting.
As opposed to baseball or soccer fields golf courses require the players to pay to join a club which owns the course, preventing the players from having to 'deal with' lower classes.

Let us hope this change goes through and the land is turned into something actually useful for the people of the country.

Dare I politely add that golf is not necessarily a highly bourgeois and classist sport everywhere. When I was at school, I would play quite a bit on our local Council-owned course with my old second-hand clubs, and a lot of working class kids the same age as me did the same. The cost of playing was very low. Golf actually has origins as a sport of the peasantry in medieval times. In fact, in the 15th century, the King of Scotland outlawed the sports of golf and football, because they had superseded the strategically important sport of archery as the game of choice among the poor.

[jake williams]

There's really no end of my contempt for golf and its courses. Check this out:

http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=190+College+Ave+E&sll=43.544162,-80.241909&sspn=0.018789,0.038581&ie=UTF8&ll=43.536852,-80.226974&spn=0.019569,0.038581&t=h&z=15

This is the Cutten Club. It is my city's main private golf course. Now consider this. To the northwest is Downtown. To the southeast is the university campus. These are the two main focal points of the city, logically one would try to connect the two. Directly to the north is a traditionally working class community.

Guelph splits, in general, along the river along which the Cutten Club is situated. The North is working class, the South is middle class. The Cutten Club sits right in the middle: restricted private land (and a significant amount of it) that acts as a barrier keeping the south "safe" from the north. It totally changes the dynamics of the city, as a massive area of land that totally separates different areas.

[PRC-UTE]

What about football pitches? Swimming pools? Cinemas? Theatres? Concert Halls? They could all quite conceivably be called a waste of land.


football is obviously much more of a mass phenomenon than golf, which caters to an elite for reasons already mentioned.

unlike golf which is the sport equivalent of having a wank, it teaches teamwork and promotes fitness. there should be more football, not less :drool:

[What Would Durruti Do?]

This is understandable in a country like Venezuela, although I think there would be more outcry in countries like the U.S. or U.K. where golf is popular even among the middle class and sometimes the lower class.

I don't have a problem with keeping some golf courses, though I think a good portion of them could be used for better things.

[FreeFocus]

Chavez is more or less right in his analysis of golf. It's a waste of land and is a bourgeois sport (for the most part). Moreover, it's fucking boring, I can't possibly name a sport more boring than golf. :sleep:

It's not like he's waging a war against the sport itself. He's shutting down a few golf courses.

From the original article:


Most of the closed courses are in oil regions, near Maracaibo in western Venezuela and in Monagas State, in the east, and were initially built for Americans working in the oil industry.

The building of these golf courses for American capitalists in Venezuela reminds me of McDonalds and other American chain stores in places like the Green Zone and Bagram. It's the whole idea of "making it feel like home."

Salgan nuestro país, yanquís. (hopefully that's proper Spanish, I'm still learning :blushing:)

[Elway]

For the most part, this is really a “Who Gives A Damn” waste of socialist interest, time and effort.

First of all, in a technical sense, all activity in a capitalist country is classist, so sports are as well. It isn’t the golf ball’s fault or the club’s fault either. I don’t play the sport, but I have a friend who does, and he has a 9 – 5 job like anyone else. He plays golf every other week, and it takes him from 6 am to about 11 am to hit 18 holes on the course near him. The course is in the middle of quality. It is in fact owned by the city, but is a nicer one for a city course. (This particular medium size city he lives in has 3 courses.)

Golf doesn’t cause homelessness. Not one bit. If golf were to vanish tomorrow, there wouldn’t be one less homeless family throughout any cappie nation.

Duh!

Also, this idea that soccer players interact with lower classes more than golfers and those who play water polo or sailing is a bunch of horse hockey. If you’re one of the best 1% of 1% of the soccer players, you haven’t “been in touch” with the lower classes for years. You’re banking a paycheck in the six figures and enjoying the “good life”.

If you’re part of the 95% of world’s golfers, you’re taking out your own trash every night and ordering Pizza from Dominos.

Playing a round of golf at a community or municipal course costs less than medium price tickets to see the Rockies play baseball at Coors Stadium.

Equipment expensive? Well, it depends. You can buy your golf stuff used. The last time I played it, 5 years ago. It was at a beautiful course next door to The Rose Bowl, in Pasadena, California. I played with 5 clubs, a driver and a putter, and we all shared a wedge. I carried my stuff around, and I was in shorts and a t-shirt. We sneaked a few beers on to the course. I was lousy, but it was fun. Sort of. I personally don’t have the patience and concentration for the game.

My point here is that you can buy your stuff used, and you can wear nearly anything you want to wear. It’s a misconception that you have to dress the way Auric Goldfinger did in the James Bond story. No body cares. In fact, an argument can probably be made that you look too smart if you try and dress like Tiger Woods does. Those guys are paid money to sponsor stuff and given clothes to wear.

What Chavez should do (or anyone who wanted to fight against elitism in certain sports) is simple:

He should simply regulate the cost so that it reflects what truly has to be done to maintain the course, and make places charge that amount. Then, he should have his supporters get in line, and pass to each new player the used set of clubs they were using. Imagine every course filled with every day working stiffs. They can close or alter the rules for those which are obviously trying to be elitist.

My sport is in fact a lot more expensive than golf. It’s motocross. It requires greater tracks of land than golf courses, though they could be used for other things, unlike golf. Even for an amateur like me, you really have to invest about $300 a month into the sport. Not to mention fees for races and such. And you need some way of getting your bike around, like a truck or a trailer. I got a truck, and I did that ‘cause the kind of women I want to attract are those who also like mid size trucks. Don’t like a sedan or sports car. There are a lot of crazy right wing guys in motocross, if not near Libertarians. It does have a mixed and colorful bunch of people (and distrust the federal government nearly as much as the commies at the board here!)

Comrade B: Right now, there are HUNDREDS of storefronts and apartment units unoccupied in California and Nevada. It’s that way ‘cause of capitalism and not ‘cause a couple guys like to hit a ball into 18 cup-holes. I mean, who really cares. Wanna sock the cappie in the nutts? Don’t take away his golf game, take away his landed properties and manufactures used to force millions into low wage living conditions.

That friend of mine who plays golf says there are some good things that come out of playing the game: Patience, courtesy (letting someone play through), social interaction, walking, attempting to concentrate, and other things. You also get to talk with someone and get to know them.

In truth, B, I don’t know what’s going on in Venezuela and golfing. If it’s really a complete psychological mind-fuck to those who aren’t allowed to play, constantly reminding them that “they” suck, and the rich “rule”, then sure: blast the courses to smithereens. But if 95% of them are available to the average Joe, like in the U.S., and the general population simply isn’t interested, then he’s just trying to get political mileage out of yet another of his “Who gives a rat’s ass” ideas of his.

Want to achieve communism in Venezuela? Take the army, and go door to door and find out what everyone does for a living. If they can’t tell you what they do, or if they appear to have no work, and are living off the interest of capital, throw them out of their homes, give them a spade or a hoe, and point them in the direction of the nearest community farm.

Or, have them help to build a golf course! (Nothing wrong with a bit of irony.)

[Comrade B]

Anyway football is ridiculously expensive now, its cost me 35 quid for a ticket to see my local team and we aren't even that good.However a football stadium can hold far more people than a golf course does for a game, and has a great deal more popularity, making it a more valuable use of the land.
Sports and the like should be public and supported by the government.

I am not saying that it should be banned because many find it boring as fuck, because personally I find metal boring as fuck, and I am pretty sure if I were to say it should be banned there would be a pretty large disagreement there. The problem is not the content of the sport, but the matter of how expensive it tends to be and how much land must be consumed.

added:

Golf doesn’t cause homelessness. Not one bit. If golf were to vanish tomorrow, there wouldn’t be one less homeless family throughout any cappie nation.
It is not being said that the sport causes homelessness, however I think that housing people is more important than having large golf courses which are primarily used by the rich. We are not saying, clear the land and close it down, then remove it from earth, we are saying turn it into housing projects. "Duh!"


soccer players interact with lower classes more than golfers and those who play water polo or sailing is a bunch of horse hockey.
Really? Yesterday I was talking to my friend, he said that he was working (on a farm) from 6 am to 8 pm, on his way biking home he stopped by the field behind a local college and joined some people on the field in a game. I am quite sure you cannot pop into a golf game with any people and just start playing at 8 pm.

We are talking about the casual person who takes part in sports, not the professional athletes.


If you’re part of the 95% of world’s golfers, you’re taking out your own trash every night and ordering Pizza from Dominos.
95% of golfers are 1% of soccer players. Pulled that statistic out of my ass, but my bet is it is near true.


Playing a round of golf at a community or municipal course costs less than medium price tickets to see the Rockies play baseball at Coors Stadium.
Playing a game of baseball is free. And it takes a tenth of the space that a golf course does.
Seeing a professional golf game... I bet that is a bit more than the Rockies.


Right now, there are HUNDREDS of storefronts and apartment units unoccupied in California and Nevada
Hugo Chavez is not the governor of California or Nevada, he is a president of a country with a mandate to do nearly whatever he wants. If he wants to have free housing built, I am quite sure he can get it done.


take away his landed properties and manufactures used to force millions into low wage living conditions.
The issue is not pissing people off, it is creating housing and education for people. I am a communist because I want to fix problems, not create more for other people. It will take some sacrifices to make things better. We may as well hurt as few people as possible while helping as many as possible.

[bricolage]

football is obviously much more of a mass phenomenon than golf, which caters to an elite for reasons already mentioned.

Like I have said golf is elitist because of the way it is structured where golf courses are in predominantly wealthy neighbourhoods, cost a lot to play at and require expensive equipment. If the reverse of this were true, if the golf clubs were made free and provided free equipment, it would not be elitist. The sport itself may be a lot of things, namely boring, but it is not inherently elitist.


unlike golf which is the sport equivalent of having a wank, it teaches teamwork and promotes fitness. there should be more football, not less :drool:

I don't understand where it is our role to tell people what sport should be teaching them. I'd like to see more football because it's a better sport and hopefully people will realise that and stop wasting their time on gold which is, as I've said, really really really fucking boring, but not because someone has decided football is good for them so they should all be playing it or that golf is bad so they should not.

[bricolage]

The problem is not the content of the sport, but the matter of how expensive it tends to be and how much land must be consumed.

But I reiterate if it were made free etc then this would not be an issue. Look the thing is I'm quite happy to see these golf courses get closed I've got no real love for the sport of the people that tend to play it, especially in Venezuela, I'm just arguing that as opposed to assuming golf is naturally elitist because rich people tend to play it out it is better to understand it as a neutral phenomena that can be either made elitist or non-elitist depending on how it is run.

[Comrade B]

I'm just arguing that as opposed to assuming golf is naturally elitist because rich people tend to play it out it is better to understand it as a neutral phenomena that can be either made elitist or non-elitist depending on how it is run.
I can agree with that, but still, the land can be put to better use.

[pastradamus]

Its not the actual game of golf which bothers me. Its the class of people it attracts. Its the whole rigmarole of the actual course taking up huge multiple acres of land. The actual course itself is not the only arrogant waste of land its also the Huge Car park In the club, the Huge Clubhouse, the usual Huge driveway to it and the lavish way in which the course is decorated and preserved is simply a waste of money. So in this situation, Chavez, a land reformer - is totally correct in taking this arrogant wasteland of the rich and transforming it into publicly owned property.

It is most annoyingly a very Sexist sport also. Some golf courses, even today in this day and age do not allow Female members and also some of the ones that do only allow them to play at certain times.

Golf, is a very class-driven pursuit by description. If a working class person wanted to join an exclusive golf club he/she'd have to fork out thousands on the golf equipment alone and also be forced to pay extortionate fee's to join the club which are renewed annually, moreover the person with the best equipment gets an unfair advantage over a person with cheaper, more affordable clubs and on top of that the persons membership must also be "approved".

To even call golf a sport anymore is arrogant in itself. Look at the best players in the world. Take John Daly as an example, He's Overweight, travels between holes in a car and not to mention wears the most unforgivable looking pants. Now in saying that its good exercise for older people but why couldn't a walk suffice?

"Golf is a good walk in the Park Ruined" - Oscar Wilde.

[pastradamus]

But I reiterate if it were made free etc then this would not be an issue. Look the thing is I'm quite happy to see these golf courses get closed I've got no real love for the sport of the people that tend to play it, especially in Venezuela, I'm just arguing that as opposed to assuming golf is naturally elitist because rich people tend to play it out it is better to understand it as a neutral phenomena that can be either made elitist or non-elitist depending on how it is run.

We already have two non-elitist games. They're called Miniature Golf and Pitch and Putt.

[JimmyJazz]

Really?

I think organizing and paying for a massive national election over this would be a colossal waste of time and resources.

I believe the entire economy should be democratically planned, I'm a socialist.

[bricolage]

I can agree with that, but still, the land can be put to better use.

Fair enough, I guess we agree then.

[Reuben]

football is obviously much more of a mass phenomenon than golf, which caters to an elite for reasons already mentioned.

unlike golf which is the sport equivalent of having a wank, it teaches teamwork and promotes fitness. there should be more football, not less :drool:
This kind of red puritanism sickens me. The fact that participants find a sport enjoyable should be sufficient for it to be catered for, reardless of whether it promotes fitness or socially usefull values. Personally i smoke alot and like table tennis.

[Misanthrope]

Saying golf is a classist and bourgeoisie sport is a bit stereotypical. This news is really irrelevant and not something we should be applauding, I agree with comrade JimmyJazz, the land should be owned by the workers, not the state.

[Sarah Palin]

Saying golf is a classist and bourgeoisie sport is a bit stereotypical. This news is really irrelevant and not something we should be applauding, I agree with comrade JimmyJazz, the land should be owned by the workers, not the state.

Agreed. While I think it will be good if Chavez uses the land for public housing, I think getting all up in arms about the whole thing is rather regressive. Yes, it's become an incredibly classist sport, but look at any professional sport! Formula One driver Kimi Raikkonen earns $44 million yearly. Michael Jordan, the basketballer earns $45 million. David Beckham makes $50 million. And American Football player Peyton Manning's contract is for 99.4 million dollars! To say that any sport is "working class" is silly. Some are just more accesssible than others.

[cb9's_unity]

Housing>Golf

There is a difference between professional sports and sports. While every professional athlete is largely divorced from the working class we are not talking about them, we are talking about a few wealthy businessmen who are using up a gross amounts of land while people go homeless. Your average Venezuelan is far more likely to buy a soccer ball and head over to the nearest field than buy clubs, balls, and time on the course. There is a time and place where golf may be perfectly acceptable but seeing as people are homeless, the time isn't now.

[pastradamus]

This kind of red puritanism sickens me. The fact that participants find a sport enjoyable should be sufficient for it to be catered for, reardless of whether it promotes fitness or socially usefull values. Personally i smoke alot and like table tennis.

Its not the sport. Its the Size of the course and the huge costs involved is what makes it an upper class pursuit and an utterly meaningless waste.

BTW, Table Tennis Rocks! :D

[pastradamus]

Agreed. While I think it will be good if Chavez uses the land for public housing, I think getting all up in arms about the whole thing is rather regressive. Yes, it's become an incredibly classist sport, but look at any professional sport! Formula One driver Kimi Raikkonen earns $44 million yearly. Michael Jordan, the basketballer earns $45 million. David Beckham makes $50 million. And American Football player Peyton Manning's contract is for 99.4 million dollars! To say that any sport is "working class" is silly. Some are just more accesssible than others.

I understand what your saying but thats not the issue here.

How many people do you know with a formula 1 car?
Basketball costs nothing to play, Football costs nothing to play. Its a huge pain in the working class Interests that Dipshits like David Beckham make such huge fees (even though he's totally crap now) but the issue at hand is that Basketball, American Football and Soccer are all played on relitively small area's, Cost nothing to play and can attract anybody from any class - and thats what sport is all about.

Whilst I will say that I know some working class guys that like a game of Golf, it is however a Predominantly Bourgeois game which takes up huge quantities of Land and costs a small fortune to play.

[OneNamedNameLess]

How many people do you know with a formula 1 car?Basketball costs nothing to play, Football costs nothing to play. Its a huge pain in the working class Interests that Dipshits like David Beckham make such huge fees (even though he's totally crap now) but the issue at hand is that Basketball, American Football and Soccer are all played on relitively small area's, Cost nothing to play and can attract anybody from any class - and thats what sport is all about. .


You are all missing the very significant point that baseball is the undisputed number one game in Venezuela therefore there should be baseball fields, ok? :cursing: I have always had a soft spot for baseball but it is a ***** of a game to play due to the equipment required. I believe that is why football was called the beautiful game as only a round object is required to play it.

Anyway, i'm way off topic. Some users who have defended the golf courses are correct. Golf is a pretty popular game amongst working class people in some countries like this one. It is also not the only sport which is victim to class divisions. Anyone like tennis? Some tennis clubs are notorious for their snobbery, all of the ones I can think of for that matter except the public ones. The crucial factor here though is that say, in the UK, where lots of working class people play golf, we can afford it if we are careful with our pennies. In Venezuela on the other hand, the land is very important and must be used to address the needs of the working class as it is still a majority world nation. I still wont embrace Chavez's attacks on golf 'Golf is bourgeois'. Chavez is bourgeois due to his status as leader of an oil rich nation.

[Q]

That should add some nice public parks.

[KC]

Basketball costs nothing to play, Football costs nothing to play.

You have to purchase the balls and find a place to play, which can also result in spending money.


the issue at hand is that Basketball, American Football and Soccer are all played on relitively small area's, Cost nothing to play and can attract anybody from any class - and thats what sport is all about.

And you are the ultimate authority on what sports are all about? I play sports to have fun, not to get some fuzzy we're-all-coming-together feeling.


Whilst I will say that I know some working class guys that like a game of Golf, it is however a Predominantly Bourgeois game which takes up huge quantities of Land and costs a small fortune to play.

First, I really don't see why this issue of taking up land is a big deal at all.

Second, it doesn't have to "cost a small fortune to play." You can easily go to a secondhand shop or go online and buy a used set of clubs for pretty damn cheap and then go to a public course and either play for free or play for cheap.

[Comrade B]

You have to purchase the balls and find a place to play, which can also result in spending money.
A ball costs less than club membership/clubs/balls and tees
Also, you have to have a golf course to play golf, which costs a lot more than the city making a basketball court, and takes up way more land, also the price of maintaining a golf course is ridiculous.

[pastradamus]

You have to purchase the balls and find a place to play, which can also result in spending money.


Finding a place to play costs nothing. A ball can be picked up for the change in ones pocket, especially if a group of people chip in.



And you are the ultimate authority on what sports are all about? I play sports to have fun, not to get some fuzzy we're-all-coming-together feeling.
Oh for christs sake. I was talking about it being classless.





First, I really don't see why this issue of taking up land is a big deal at all.Second, it doesn't have to "cost a small fortune to play." You can easily go to a secondhand shop or go online and buy a used set of clubs for pretty damn cheap and then go to a public course and either play for free or play for cheap.How many public courses are there compared to expensive private ones?
Even in a second hand golf shop a full set of clubs is still pretty expensive. The issue of golf taking up huge amounts of land is a big issue in Venezuela when one takes into account the small holdings of land the peasents own.

[KC]

How many public courses are there compared to expensive private ones?

Well that is a problem with capitalism and not the sport then, no? If Chavez took over these clubs and opened them up to the public for free would you still be complaining about how bourgeois golf is?

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

It is most annoyingly a very Sexist sport also. Some golf courses, even today in this day and age do not allow Female members and also some of the ones that do only allow them to play at certain times.

True, though it should be mentioned that there are also clubs that do not allow men to join.


Golf, is a very class-driven pursuit by description. If a working class person wanted to join an exclusive golf club he/she'd have to fork out thousands on the golf equipment alone and also be forced to pay extortionate fee's to join the club which are renewed annually, moreover the person with the best equipment gets an unfair advantage over a person with cheaper, more affordable clubs and on top of that the persons membership must also be "approved".

If you want to sleep in the tallest skyscraper...

If you want to eat the best steak in the ritziest restaurant...

If you have back problems from basketball and want the best possible care....

Everything costs money. Yes, some golf courses are ridiculously expensive clubs for the monied elite, but to say that the sport itself is somehow flawed because of that is like saying a gin and tonic is flawed.

Equipment costs are a factor, but I play with used equipment and regularly beat rich fucks who go out and spend thousands on a set of clubs. That is, when they're on the public course.


To even call golf a sport anymore is arrogant in itself. Look at the best players in the world. Take John Daly as an example, He's Overweight, travels between holes in a car and not to mention wears the most unforgivable looking pants. Now in saying that its good exercise for older people but why couldn't a walk suffice?

Call it whatever you want. An activity.

But it's not about getting excersize, at least not for me. It's about shooting 18 holes downing beers with the guys, cussing like a storm when the ball fucks up, and getting away from women.

If you can you should try it sometime.

[PRC-UTE]

I don't understand where it is our role to tell people what sport should be teaching them. I'd like to see more football because it's a better sport and hopefully people will realise that and stop wasting their time on gold which is, as I've said, really really really fucking boring, but not because someone has decided football is good for them so they should all be playing it or that golf is bad so they should not.

The point is, we don't have to teach them anything; everywhere I can think of, team sports like football, baseball, basketball, GAA, rugby, etc are massively popular compared to golf.

[Intifadah]

A ball can cost nothing but the change in your pocket, they dont have to be made my adidas or nike. You can play ballgames just about anywhere.

Golf is a gross land-consuming bourgeois past-time that I have no time for at all. Any of you try getting into your nearest golf course?

[Revy]

If golf is bourgeois, is miniature golf petit-bourgeois?:laugh:

[Revy]

Well that is a problem with capitalism and not the sport then, no? If Chavez took over these clubs and opened them up to the public for free would you still be complaining about how bourgeois golf is?

Agreed. Emphatically.

[JimmyJazz]

Agreed. Emphatically.

Yep. The golf courses should be made public and opened up to everyone. That would be the socialist solution.

[Die Neue Zeit]

http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUSN1323605520090813



FACTBOX-Chavez forges socialist economy with laws offensive



Aug 13 (Reuters) - Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez is unleashing an avalanche of laws to regulate business and promote "Marxist trade," a new push to build a socialist economy in the shopping-mad, oil-exporting nation.

Chavez, a close ally of Cuba who fully embraced socialism in 2007, has steadily increased the role of the state in the OPEC member's economy with a slew of nationalizations and tough controls on prices and foreign exchange.

Following are some of the key laws currently being discussed in the national assembly:

* Socialist trade laws. A packet of initiatives promoted by soft-spoken but hard-left Trade Minister Eduardo Saman that includes an anti-monopoly law, new patent and industrial property rules, royalty and investment guarantee rules, plus limits on foreign investment. Saman has begun with a focus on medicine, calling for restrictions on imports to boost domestic production and revising patents.

* Private property. One of the most controversial laws currently being written will formalize alternatives to private property, specifically governing how communal groups access state property. Free-market activists ran an ad campaign showing a naked pregnant woman and warning the government was planning to strip people of their possessions. Furious, the government pulled the plug on the ads.

* Cars and houses. Prices for vehicles escalate rapidly in Venezuela because of high demand and insufficient supply. Lawmaker Elvis Amoroso is behind a law that would set suggested prices for autos and heavily fine people for reselling their new vehicles. A housing law is in the works that would set land prices and increase state participation in the sector.

* Education. A new education law is close to being passed. The main controversy so far relates to an article that says children should be taught to criticize the media. Opponents of the law say it would reduce parents' right to choose their children's education.

* Elections. Passed in July, an electoral law gives the party winning the most votes in legislative elections more seats than the percentage of ballots it obtained. Critics say this unfairly favors Chavez's Socialist Party, which is by far the country's largest. Chavez currently enjoys a huge majority after the opposition boycotted the last vote in 2005. The next legislative elections are due in 2010.

* Labor. Not yet made public, a new labor law is expected to be passed this year and will likely limit the working day to six hours. It may also change the regulation of labor unions, which have not always been clear allies of the government. (Reporting by Eyanir Chinea; Writing by Frank Jack Daniel; Editing by Eric Beech)

[n0thing]

wut.

I've known middle-class 14 year old kids who played golf. I used to play golf when I was younger.

This is retarded.

[OneNamedNameLess]

wut.

I've known middle-class 14 year old kids who played golf. I used to play golf when I was younger.

This is retarded.

The closures are not exclusively due to the bourgeois nature of the sport in Venezuela but the land which is used to accommodate the game. As I have said in this thread already I know lots of working class people who play golf, but in Venezuela the situation doesn't resemble the UK.

Btw, try not to use the word retarded as it is not permitted on the boards.

[n0thing]

The closures are not exclusively due to the bourgeois nature of the sport in Venezuela but the land which is used to accommodate the game. As I have said in this thread already I know lots of working class people who play golf, but in Venezuela the situation doesn't resemble the UK.

Btw, try not to use the word retarded as it is not permitted on the boards.
If I'm going to have to put up with all these here marxist-leninists, I expect to be able to use words like retard and retarded freely.

[Woland]

If I'm going to have to put up with all these here marxist-leninists, I expect to be able to use words like retard and retarded freely.

How old are you? 12?

[Bright Banana Beard]

If I'm going to have to put up with all these here marxist-leninists, I expect to be able to use words like retard and retarded freely.

Didn't your mother teach you not to use those offensive word? If not, talk to her about how offensive word is actually childish and make you look like a 12-years old.

[n0thing]

Didn't your mother teach you not to use those offensive word? If not, talk to her about how offensive word is actually childish and make you look like a 12-years old.
This is why I have to use it. You're using exactly the same insult as the post above.

No wonder you support a vanguard. You can't think for yourself.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

wut.

I've known middle-class 14 year old kids who played golf. I used to play golf when I was younger.

In Venezuela?

What exactly are you saying is retarded?

[chegitz guevara]

I would say that a big chunk of that crowd is personal friends and relatives, it is nothing like the crowd a football game gathers, and it is also probably ridiculously expensive.

Poor people can play golf too. Second hand clubs aren't all that expensive, and many golf places have rentals. My brother-in-law, who is a meter reader for the power company, basically makes shit wages, likes to play.

I worked near a club that was used during the Opens, and the roads were packed and traffic was a pain in the ass for the few days they were there. Lot's of people like golf.

There are lots of problems with the golf industry, especially environmentally. Yes, there are class issues, but there are with many sports. Rather than saying no one can play golf, open it up to everyone.

[NecroCommie]

To OP:

Good riddance! I don't think golf is particularly space-efficient sport. And elitist as fuck as well.

My views might be affected by the fact that I have three, fucking three golf courses in my vicinity in a town of approximately 240.000 citizens! :bored: Not only that, but they continuously distrupt all activities close to them (they own a bit of extra land), and they are chronically empty.

[OneNamedNameLess]

If I'm going to have to put up with all these here marxist-leninists, I expect to be able to use words like retard and retarded freely.

I know you are not using it in it's traditional offensive sense and are employing it as an adjective like shit, but the CC see it as inappropriate so you may get pulled up for it. I'm actually just giving you advice. Btw, I know a lot of the Stalinists can be frustrating but you still have to drop the sectarianism, we are better off without it. Not all Marxists-Leninists wank over Stalin either.

[*Red*Alert]

I thought this article (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/12/world/americas/12venez.html?ref=world) was pretty interesting, reminds me of the things I like about Chavez.

It cannot be denied that golf is a highly bourgeois and classist sport. The equipment for the sport requires a great deal of money, and the amount of land taken up for the sport is disgusting.
As opposed to baseball or soccer fields golf courses require the players to pay to join a club which owns the course, preventing the players from having to 'deal with' lower classes.

Let us hope this change goes through and the land is turned into something actually useful for the people of the country.

Actually, fuck it, I say nationalise golf courses and unused private housing developments to deal with the housing backlog in any country, be it Venezuela or in Ireland (its not like the 100,000 empty houses built in the boom are actually going to sell!)

[Soldier of life]

Yep. The golf courses should be made public and opened up to everyone. That would be the socialist solution.

I disagree. There is still great poverty in Venezuela, so priorities need to be made clear. I think the primary concern should be decent housing,food and living standards for the poor rather then giving them the opportunity between stomach pains to stroll about on a golf course whacking a ball about.If they had the energy that is.

[gorillafuck]

This is why I have to use it. You're using exactly the same insult as the post above.

No wonder you support a vanguard. You can't think for yourself.
Shut up, please.

[chegitz guevara]

I love your name.

[Comrade B]

If I'm going to have to put up with all these here marxist-leninists, I expect to be able to use words like retard and retarded freely.
Good job not addressing the actual response to your statement.
I guess I should expect this non-political garbage from a libertarian.

[The Something]

http://golfycia.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/che-fidel2.jpg
If Che and Fidel do it it couldn't be bougie. Ha.