All Obama All The Time!

[FloridaCommunist]

Hey, guys, couple months' lurker, first time poster. I'm surrounded by Glenn Beck's parrots that are constantly yelling "OBAMA = SOC-IAL-IST" (yes, they actually break the word up like that). I've been doing a little independent research, and I really haven't come up with a complete answer. I've literally searched the entire forum here on Revleft as well as Google, and have only found slanted editorial pieces. Here are some questions to get started.

1. Obama is raising taxes on those who make more than $250,000 a year. Does that make him a Socialist? Furthermore, does that show his intent to "spread the wealth"?

2. Obama is working on a national health plan. Does that make him Socialist?

There are obviously more platforms in which the Fox News'ies stand on, but where do you think Obama stands?

Thanks a lot for your time!

[FloridaCommunist]

Ha, I knew coming in here from all the posts I read that I would get a smart ass remark right from the beginning. Welcoming forum!

[FloridaCommunist]

Someone make a post about why he's not a socialist and we can sticky this thread if you like.
What are you waiting for?

[SoupIsGoodFood]

Do a little bit of research on leftist theory. Just a little bit. Figure out the basics. Then, once you have your shit straight, come back and post here.

[FloridaCommunist]

You really have got to be kidding me. Really. I honestly mean it. I really really do. I mean really.

[SoupIsGoodFood]

He's not a socialist because hes in charge of the US and the US is a capitalist system and will be until the workers have control of the means of production. Hopefully at that point there won't be any presidents anyhoo. Socialized healthcare =/= socialism. Next question.

[FloridaCommunist]

I thought Communism was when workers own the means of production, not Socialism.

[SoupIsGoodFood]

Socialism

1. A belief that human society can and should be organised along social lines - that is, for the benefit of all, rather than for the profit of a few 2. A type of reformist politics advocating nationalised industries and workers rights 3. In Orthodox Marxist theory, the stage after capitalism but before Communism in which the dictatorship of the proletariat rules and individuals are paid according to how much they work. China, the USSR, etc. all claimed to be in this socialist stage, none ever claimed to be in communism. That is why the USSR was called the Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Republics and not the Union of Soviet Communist Republics. 4. Also a form of post revolutionary society in its own right.

[FloridaCommunist]

By that definition then, Obama must be a Socialist. He wants to make sure health care is provided for everyone for the good of "everyone". Also, he's raising taxes on the rich people and businesses for the good of all rather than the few. Hmmmmmm?

[SoupIsGoodFood]

He hasn't nationalized industry or done anything for worker rights.

[SoupIsGoodFood]

You really have got to be kidding me. Really. I honestly mean it. I really really do. I mean really.

I wish. I don't know shit about fuck when it comes to leftist theory. I can't even spell "Syndicalist" right.

[FloridaCommunist]

I wish. I don't know shit about fuck when it comes to leftist theory. I can't even spell "Syndicalist" right.

Wait...but you just...HEY! YOU TRICKED ME!

[Led Zeppelin]

Short answer, no. Long answer, read Marx.

If you don't have have anything to contribute to the thread don't post.

Don't act like a condescending douche to a new member because you think you know more than him based on some questions he asked.


Do a little bit of research on leftist theory. Just a little bit. Figure out the basics. Then, once you have your shit straight, come back and post here.

What the hell is wrong with you people? Ever bother to look at the name of this forum? It's called Learning; this stuff is what it's for. Don't like it? You get the hell out.

The freakin' description of the forum even says:

A place for beginners and learners to ask their political questions about theory or specific issues. Don't worry if you think your questions are stupid or pointless, ask away. Learning is not stupid and is never pointless.

Seriously you're poisoning the atmosphere of this forum with your flame-baiting and condescending replies to a new member whose only "crime" was to ask some questions.

If you don't have anything to add to the thread besides snide comments and petty sneering, don't post.


1. Obama is raising taxes on those who make more than $250,000 a year. Does that make him a Socialist? Furthermore, does that show his intent to "spread the wealth"?

Raising taxes does not make one a socialist. If I recall correctly the tax rate was 95% under Roosevelt at one point. That did not make him a socialist (and I'm sure the Beck-ites would agree to that) so equally it would not make Obama one.

The Tax-system within the context of capitalism is still capitalism. Tell that to the Beck-ites. Ask them to come up with an actual policy of Obama to abolish capitalism. They can't, so they have no argument.


2. Obama is working on a national health plan. Does that make him Socialist?

Again, no. Sweden, the UK, Japan, France, Netherlands etc. etc. have more widespread and socially advanced healthcare programmes than the one Obama is trying to set up in the US. Those are not socialist countries. If the Beck-ites claim otherwise, ask them why the economies of those countries are capitalist if they are supposed to be socialist. Again, they cannot back this claim up, so they lose.

Arguing with Beck-ites is quite easy.

If you want to know more about the differences between socialist and capitalist economic systems you should check out some introductory works on the subject. Here is one such work that is pretty good: The Principles of Communism (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/11/prin-com.htm)

If you want something longer, check this out: ABC of communism (http://www.marxistsfr.org/archive/bukharin/works/1920/abc/index.htm)

Hope that helps.

[Brother No. 1]

By that definition then, Obama must be a Socialist.

Nationalization=/=Socialism.

Obama is the head of the Capitalist state of the US which the Bougoise still have control of the means of prodution, still expolit the Proletariat, along with poor class, and still do Imperialistic tendencies. Conservatives call him Socialist becuase they want to make him look bad. Socialists, obviously, arent well liked in the US. Hannity, from the Hannity show, has repeatedly said hes a "socialist" or is going to turn society to just like the DPRK. Conservatives and Liberals always bicker and will always make names for each other. Socialism requires the workers to be in control of the means of prodution, which they obviously dont have, and if Obama was Socialist he'd at least be doing something simular to what Venezuela is doing. All hes doing he Nationalizing he Heatlh care and making the Bougoise pay a bit more taxes. When did this make him a Socialist?

He wants to make sure health care is provided for everyone for the good of "everyone".

So, in apperenty, when you Nationalize healthcare that automatically makes you have a point for being a Socialist? Canada has univeral healthcare does that make it "Socialist?" Besides with the turmoil in America the president, leader of the special bodies of the state, wants the people to trust the state again, trust the goverments actions like they did in 2001. Bougosie still on top, Proletariats still surffering. Hes not doing much to help the left or Socialism. Nationalization of Healthcare doesnt make him a Socialist and since he is a liberal he wants to make the Liberals, The "Democrat" party, on top of the little political game the Conservatives and Liberals have all the time. Liberals have their way of ruling the Capitalist society and the Conservatives have their own. Its basicly a battle on who becomes more popular in their 4 year popularity contests. *Elections for to be President but it seems much more like a populairty contest for who can screw the most people and make them buy in their lies.*



Also, he's raising taxes on the rich people and businesses for the good of all rather than the few.

so this somehow magically takes care of the problem of taxes with the rest of society? Raising taxes on the rich....how does that qualify as being Socialist? workers still opressed, Bougoise are still in power, still on the top, and still get the money. But when you say "all" what do you mean? Will this help the Proletariats? Will this help the poor? Will this stop the Bougoise? So bussissmen and The Bougoise pay more taxes...how does this affect the workers in anyway benifital? So far Obama hasnt done anything that has benifited the working class that is Socialist. So far his polices show his a liberal.

[FloridaCommunist]

Now THOSE are the replies I was looking for. Thanks a lot, Zeppelin and Polish!

[GPDP]

The first few posters should be ashamed of themselves. Honestly, what a bunch of pricks.

Anyway, LedZeppelin and Polish Soviet pretty much hit it on the nail. Obama is far from a socialist. Even by liberal standards, he's pretty damn conservative. Beck and his drones are just loons whom you should not take seriously.

[Ovi]

If you're from the US you should know better. As far as I understand being called a socialist or a commie in the US is quite an insult and considering the mass of people who are so against socialism, being accused of that is as bad as it can get. Am I wrong?

And no there is nothing socialist about Obama.

[khad]

So, in apperenty, when you Nationalize healthcare that automatically makes you have a point for being a Socialist? Canada has univeral healthcare does that make it "Socialist?" Besides with the turmoil in America the president, leader of the special bodies of the state, wants the people to trust the state again, trust the goverments actions like they did in 2001. Bougosie still on top, Proletariats still surffering.

National health care is just a puppy that Obama's trying to trick people into buying. Unlike other national health care systems, the one he is proposing is not single-payer. Instead, he wants to do it through the existing insurance companies, those parasites who do nothing but think of ways to squeeze every drop of money from the American people. One cannot be a socialist when one's actions simply benefit capitalists such as these.


So far Obama hasnt done anything that has benifited the working class that is Socialist. So far his polices show his a liberal.

If that bastard fuck Obama argued for the Employee Free Choice Act with one-tenth the energy and passion that he used to push through the trillion-dollar financial bailout, we would be seeing the first major advance in workers' right to organize since the New Deal. But no, of course not. The workers have to be "protected" from the big, bad unions who do nothing but "intimidate" them to go against their employers. :rolleyes:

[Philosophical Materialist]

In the run-up to the 1964 election, Barry Goldwater and his allies declared LBJ's economic policies as "socialist." In the context of US politics, the label "socialist" is name-calling due to the historical and cultural nature of US anti-communism and hostility towards socialism.

The consensus in Washington DC is a reversion to demand-led Keynesian economic policies that were dominant until the 1970s. By FOX News standards, Presidents Eisenhower and Nixon would be considered socialists because they sought to save laisser faire capitalism from itself. But contemporary US conservative assessments are based on the term socialist as a meaningless pejorative, half-based on a gross-misunderstanding of socialism and/or simple propaganda needs.

[Sarah Palin]

1. Obama is raising taxes on those who make more than $250,000 a year. Does that make him a Socialist? Furthermore, does that show his intent to "spread the wealth"?

Eh, he may be raising taxes, but he has absolutely no intent to "spread the wealth." If he really wanted to take money from his friends and give it to the working class in the form of social services he wouldn't have become president.


2. Obama is working on a national health plan. Does that make him Socialist?Obama is owned by the people who will do anything in their power to stop a national healthcare plan. The bill that is before Congress right now is anything but a national healthcare plan. I just wish Americans weren't as stupid as they are (I say that with love, I'm American), so they could see what a farce it is. A "single-payer" system should be considered, but no way in hell will congress let it get past the drafting stages. That's the thing with the American ruling class. They have been able to divide the poorer people (middle class, and working class) on issues that they would naturally agree on in any other country (such as health care).


There are obviously more platforms in which the Fox News'ies stand on, but where do you think Obama stands?Obama is as imperialist as any president we've had before. I think what's scariest about him, is that people think he is this savior to the working class. At least Bush was open about hating working people, so it was easy to spot the enemy. His foreign policy has only expanded on the crimes of Reagan/Bush/Clinton/Bush towards Central America, the Middle East, and Africa. Sure, he's pulling out of Iraq and all, but leaving a puppet government in the former's place that would have Reagan drooling. He also isn't doing anything to right the wrongs of war criminals. Abu Ghraib may be closed, but there is something called the Bagram Airbase in Afghanistan. It is where crimes much more heinous have taken place. Towards Central America and Africa, he has only drummed up the rhetoric, but done nothing. He declared in Africa (as if speaking to one nation), "With better governance, I have no doubt that Africa holds the promise of a broader base of prosperity. The continent is rich in natural resources. And from cellphone entrepeneurs to small farmers, Africans have shown the capacity to create their own opportunities." Africa is indeed rich in resources, including coltan, a mineral essential for military and civilian applications, such as capacitors for Mr. Obama's Blackberry. Eighty percent of the world's coltan reserves are found in the Democratic Republic of Congo. The race for coltan has put international companies like Cabot Corp(US) and OM Group(US) into competition for hugely profitable extraction processes in which mercenary armies supervise the mining, with presidents and ministers bribed and thousands of workers slaughtered. Some change huh?

[StalinFanboy]

Do a little bit of research on leftist theory. Just a little bit. Figure out the basics. Then, once you have your shit straight, come back and post here.
This is the learning section...

The entire point of this section is to learn leftist theory.

[Communist Theory]

Short answer, no. Long answer, read Marx.
dick.

[The Idler]

Obama is a "Welfare Capitalist".
Read some of the Left-wing articles critical of Obama I have collected (http://eng.anarchopedia.org/List_of_Left-Wing_articles_critical_of_Obama).

[Blackscare]

What the fuck has this forum become, in the relatively short time since I've joined, that first time posters get greeted with elitist garbage like this? Thank you to LZ et al for actually making an effort (after the first few posts which, like I said, were trash), I'll try to contribute later but honestly, I really have a hard time maintaining enthusiasm on here anymore.

[Mala Tha Testa]

If you're from the US you should know better. As far as I understand being called a socialist or a commie in the US is quite an insult and considering the mass of people who are so against socialism, being accused of that is as bad as it can get. Am I wrong?

It's a little off topic I guess, but you're pretty much correct.
I've been called both with the intention of insult, but I take no offense.