Most Serious Form of Discrimination

[marxistcritic]

What would you consider The Most Serious Form of Discrimination?

[Manifesto]

The most serious would have to be anti-Semitism due to the extreme violence that comes from it.

[9]

This is a difficult poll because it doesn't specify whether it is referring to the most serious discrimination historically or whether it is talking about the present, and of course it varies considerably from place to place. But, from the perspective of an American in the present era, I would say racism is definitely the most serious form (lots of people who hate blacks, immigrants, Arabs, etc.).

[Il Medico]

All forms of discrimination are vile and unacceptable. No one is more serious than another.

[Durruti's Ghost]

Sexism is more deeply ingrained in society than other forms of discrimination, so in that sense, it's more "serious".

[Pawn Power]

What an absurd question. I can't believe people are actually attempting to answer such a 'question.'

[which doctor]

I don't really see much of a point in determining what form of discrimination is the worst. All kinds of discrimination are harmful in their own ways, yes, some may be worse than others, but that does not mean we should prioritize eradicating one kind over another. I think part of what having a revolutionary perspective means is that we should identify all forms of oppression and discrimination in the world around us and make our own attempts to mitigate them, all the while working towards the general emancipation of all peoples.

[LOLseph Stalin]

All forms of Discrimination are bad, but Anti-Semitism is by far the worse. There has actually been deaths and violence based on it. Of course I'm not denying that other forms of discrimination have created death and violence. They have, but the Holocaust was centered mainly on Nazi Anti-Semitism which led to the deaths of millions in just a few years, most of which were Jewish. It disgusts me that even nowadays there's still people who deny the holocaust and more violence against Jews.

[Pogue]

Maybe we should have a discrimination fantasy football leage to determine a winner?

[khad]

All forms of Discrimination are bad, but Anti-Semitism is by far the worse. There has actually been deaths and violence based on it. Of course I'm not denying that other forms of discrimination have created death and violence. They have, but the Holocaust was centered mainly on Nazi Anti-Semitism which led to the deaths of millions in just a few years, most of which were Jewish. It disgusts me that even nowadays there's still people who deny the holocaust and more violence against Jews.
A lot more non-Jewish people died as the result of that war.

Also, I think that anti-Semitism ought to be folded into racism. Jews weren't the only people the Nazis thought were subhumans. Only the Zionists would want you to think that.

[FreeFocus]

Sexism is more deeply ingrained in society than other forms of discrimination, so in that sense, it's more "serious".

I'd go a step further and argue that sexism constitutes a pillar of most societies, particularly Eurasian societies. However, I don't think sexism is the "most serious," though it may be one of the most pervasive. Racism is most serious, judging by the numbers of people killed by things like imperialism and slavery. No other form of discrimination brings that death toll with it.

That being said, all forms of discrimination ought to be fought. We can't get into a petty squabble about "my oppression .vs. your oppression," which some people get caught in.

[Durruti's Ghost]

I'd go a step further and argue that sexism constitutes a pillar of most societies, particularly Eurasian societies. However, I don't think sexism is the "most serious," though it may be one of the most pervasive. Racism is most serious, judging by the numbers of people killed by things like imperialism and slavery. No other form of discrimination brings that death toll with it.

That being said, all forms of discrimination ought to be fought. We can't get into a petty squabble about "my oppression .vs. your oppression," which some people get caught in.

Agreed. I think the question kind of fails, really--"serious" is a very vague term. It could mean "most essential to the maintenance of the capitalist system", "most deadly", or any of a number of other things.

[Dr Mindbender]

this poll is nonsense, all forms of discrimination on the basis of factors that people have no choice over are equally reprehensible.

[Sarah Palin]

Anti-communism transcends race, sex, age, and religion. And this time it's personal.

[Invariance]

I made a post somewhat related to this before.

An institution can discriminate on the basis of a non-social criteria. For example, night-clubs often discriminate against those who don't follow a certain dress code (e.g. you're not allowed to wear white sneakers, some require males to wear a shirt with a collar, or refuse females who wear tank-tops as I've discovered).

If a night-club, however, refused entry based on whatever demographics it so desires - e.g. refuses to allow entry Muslims, or black people, or those from a working class background, or young people, or gay people), then that would constitute social discrimination.

The extent to which that discrimination is truly oppressive depends on material circumstances - i.e whether that form of discrimination results in true economic/social disadvantage. Female toilets are discriminatory against men (lol, not that it is really enforced in a stringent manner, but let's pretend it is), but its not truly oppressive because you have an alternative - men's toilets.

The problem is when people equate non-social discrimination to social discrimination which is also oppressive, and assume they are on an equal footing. (However, some forms of social discrimination aren't oppressive - e.g. a gay men's club may refuse membership to heterosexual women, which is a form of social discrimination, but it ain't oppressive).

---


All forms of discrimination are vile and unacceptable. No one is more serious than another.Uh sorry, but no.

Not all forms of (social) discrimination are on equal footing, because discrimination isn't some abstract thing - it is totally related to social conditions.

Discriminating against communists is different to discriminating against women. Discriminating against white people, is different from discriminating against black people. Discriminating against young people is different from discriminating against older people. Why? Because we recognize that not all social groups are on the same 'footing' - and the oppressiveness of the various forms of discrimination are therefore different. You might not think that is fair in an abstract sense, because it isn't - but nor is society.


I don't really see much of a point in determining what form of discrimination is the worst. All kinds of discrimination are harmful in their own ways, yes, some may be worse than others, but that does not mean we should prioritize eradicating one kind over another.Well actually it is totally relevant, because it is a totally practical question; the discrimination which someone faces, for instance, for having tattoos, is far less important than the discrimination a poor black woman would face. Indeed, by the description of this forum we have prioritized a form of discrimination - a forum dedicated to various forms of social discrimination. Presumably we care less about other forms of non-social discrimination - which is politically expedient, in my opinion.

---

RE: The point concerning anti-semitism. No, that is by no means the worst form of discrimination in existence today (the extent of oppressiveness of various forms of discrimination changes - for example, today women are no longer as oppressed in the West as they were 30 years ago). Jewish people simply do not face the same structural disadvantage they did 60 odd years ago. That's not to say anti-semitism isn't repugnant - it is, because the worst anti-semitism is historically close enough for us to still consider it vile.

[khad]

Uh sorry, but no.

Not all forms of (social)discrimination are on equal footing, because discrimination isn't some abstract thing - it is totally related to social conditions.

Discriminating against communists is different to discriminating against women. Discriminating against white people, is different from discriminating against black people. Why? Because we recognize that not all social groups are on the same 'footing' - and the oppressiveness of the various forms of discrimination are therefore different.
I totally feel what you are saying. There are a number of people on this site who just use that liberal-libertarian logic to deny the fact of white privilege and join hands with the right wing to attack measures such as Affirmative Action. I think it's important to distinguish between prejudice, which people may have but keep hidden, and discrimination, which is prejudice made concrete through material conditions. Prejudice can even be out in the open but socially meaningless because the one being prejudiced does not have the social and institutional power to really discriminate against his targets.

[SubcomandanteJames]

CAPITALISM is the most serious form of discrimination. Some may argue its not discrimination, but I think judging the worth of life based on profitability constitutes discrimination, and leads to only more discrimination.

[Black Dagger]

I've closed the poll, lest the discrimination forum turn into an Oppression contest. By all means discuss, compare and contrast the impacts/facets of social oppression - but there is no 'winner' of 'most serious form of discrimination' - discrimination is contextual not a fixed practice or experience (consider people who face discrimination on a number of basis); moreover social prejduces reinforce/compliment each other, and so should not be considered as if they exist independently (IMO this needs to be acknowledged as a part of an analysis of any kind of social discrimination).

[SoupIsGoodFood]

This is stupid, they're all bad.

[ev]

If I were to play devils advocate, i'd say Anti-communism would be the worst as communism would be able to address all other kinds of discrimination..

Discrimination stems from the bourgeois, it benefits them by creating social divisions within society, making it difficult for workers to unite and overthrow them..

[9]

If I were to play devils advocate, i'd say Anti-communism would be the worst as communism would be able to address all other kinds of discrimination..

Discrimination stems from the bourgeois, it benefits them by creating social divisions within society, making it difficult for workers to unite and overthrow them..

I was hoping this would not be anyone's response.
No, all forms of discrimination do not stem from capitalism - sexism has existed for millennia, so obviously it existed before capitalism. And this is one of the reasons why I think it is a mistake to write off efforts to combat different forms of discrimination as identity politics or bourgeois in nature, or to imply, as many do, that such efforts somehow take away from the class struggle. Many forms of discrimination preceded capitalism and, if they are not addressed and fought against in the here and now, I see no reason to assume that they will all magically dissolve with the abolition of capitalism.

[Fictional]

Sexism is more deeply ingrained in society than other forms of discrimination, so in that sense, it's more "serious".
Sexism is such a huge thing, it's used in daily life by people such things as "She can't drive, she's a woman!" people have become so oblivious to small things like said quote but people are still being hurt, regardless each form of discrimination is as bad as another.

[ev]

I was hoping this would not be anyone's response.
No, all forms of discrimination do not stem from capitalism - sexism has existed for millennia, so obviously it existed before capitalism. And this is one of the reasons why I think it is a mistake to write off efforts to combat different forms of discrimination as identity politics or bourgeois in nature, or to imply, as many do, that such efforts somehow take away from the class struggle. Many forms of discrimination preceded capitalism and, if they are not addressed and fought against in the here and now, I see no reason to assume that they will all magically dissolve with the abolition of capitalism.

Thank you for pointing that out Apikoros, sexism has existed for a millennia - but not in all societies. I wouldn't want you to interpret what I said as me "writing off sexism", as a matter of fact I think this needs to be addressed.

What I would like you to consider is that when you analyze past societies you'll find that the hierarchies that existed often perpetuated an oppressive attitude towards women, we can agree on this.. Now it's clear that one of the main factors that contributed to these social hierarchies success were their economies.

I would like to be clear that I was not implying that struggling for the liberation of women detracts from the class struggle, I do believe however that it would be easier to achieve this goal in a communist society. You are wise to assume that such social problems cannot "magically dissolve" but we cannot deny that feudal & capitalist economic factors have not played a role in the oppression of women.

[Reuben]

This is a really really stupid thread.

[bcbm]

Also, I think that anti-Semitism ought to be folded into racism.

I don't. Anti-semitism typically manifests itself in ways that differ from traditional racism.

[Aeval]

I don't. Anti-semitism typically manifests itself in ways that differ from traditional racism.

In what way? Seriously, I've never understood this, anti-semitism is a hatred of a group of people based purely on them being seen as belonging to a certain 'ethnic group' - how is that different to any other type of racism?
This hatred has manifested itself in violence, discrimination and an attempted extermination - most groups persecuted because of their 'race' have experienced the first two, so is the only reason it's different the fact that another group of people were organised enough to almost successfully take advantage of an opportunity to carry out the last one? There are other examples of racist people trying to exterminate an entire other group of people, so how exactly does it manifest itself so differently that it should be thought of as something separate to racism?

And in answer to the OP, it depends what you mean by 'most serious' - sexism is pretty all pervasive, it effects 50% (51%?) of the world and you can barely walk down the street without bumping into some example of it, and it has a tendency to just slip into everyday life even among people who are against it, ageism too - though I would add that ageism against older people is normally based on how much power they have, the wealthy 60 year old business man probably experiences a lot less ageism than my nan for example - that said, racism has again and again led to incredibly violent and horrific actions, as has discrimination against people based on their sexuality - does 'most serious' mean the type which has caused the most physical casualties or the type that effects the most people? In any case, I doubt you could get a proper figure on it and does it matter? They're all serious to people being effected by them.

[Mike Rotchtickles]

The fact that people are still being oppressed should be seen as appalling in itself. Gaging how serious one form of discrimination is to another is pretty difficult. I dont want to start comparing things so I will probably look at the kind of discriminations I have seen and expereience in my individual life. Racism, xenophobia, sexisml, homophobia, religious intolerance. Which one is more serious than the other I think you need to ask the groups and individuals effected by it the most. I doubt you can console a women who has been raped and between till nearly dead and say atleast you're not a jew because those people really have it badly. We need to fight and oppose dicrimination in all of its manifestations. I think they all stem from the same thing, inherent prejudice that human beings teach to their kids and learn as a society.

[Mike Rotchtickles]

Guys need to look at "Intersectionality Theory"this is an example of how complex discrimination can get.


In what way? Seriously, I've never understood this, anti-semitism is a hatred of a group of people based purely on them being seen as belonging to a certain 'ethnic group' - how is that different to any other type of racism?
This hatred has manifested itself in violence, discrimination and an attempted extermination - most groups persecuted because of their 'race' have experienced the first two, so is the only reason it's different the fact that another group of people were organised enough to almost successfully take advantage of an opportunity to carry out the last one? There are other examples of racist people trying to exterminate an entire other group of people, so how exactly does it manifest itself so differently that it should be thought of as something separate to racism?

I agree with you. Why dont we have different types of racism(that against blacks, chinese, indians etc). all these have been acted out by violence. What do we say about colonialism. This is something which was justified on racial prejudices of dehumanizing Black Africans. Slavery and colonialism lead to so many casualties I doubt we can come up with a number to satisfy our curiosity.

I cant vote on this poll because one can only be subjective in making a choice.

[Bilan]

There's no way to answer this. The way certain forms of discrimination affect people has different repercussions. Institutionalized forms of discrimination - with particular reference to that which stems from the white supremacist, patriarchal, and homophobic structures which govern most (all) societies - are arguably the most "serious" in that their repercussions are embedded within the daily life of all, and those who are subjected to it face it daily, constantly, and as a by-product of the system itself.

But to order them according to the most 'serious forms' is ludicrous. Not because they're the same, but because for most forms of social discrimination, most of them are intrinsically linked to the system itself, and they have a universal impact on peoples - despite the varying impacts upon peoples, depending what form they're subjected to.
Racism usually takes on a far more violent form - historically, especially, but most certainly in a contemporary sense: one merely needs to lack at things such as the Northern Territory Intervention in Australia (taken up under the Howard Government, and continued under the Rudd government) in which Aboriginal communities in the Northern Territory are occupied by police and military forces, and are publicly humiliated, despite the state in which Aboriginal people in Australia being entirely due to their systematic displacement and oppression; or one could look at the Mulrunji trial in Queensland, in which an agitator of a riot (which was in response to the death of an Aboriginal man on Palm Island) is being sent to (or is already in) jail, and the police officer responsible for the others death being pardoned and sent to the mainland.
There are countless, and far more barbaric examples of racism.

But even so, this form of overt violence occurs to others, such as the gay community and trangendered people.

For women in the West, domestic violence is inseperable from these patriachal structures; as is the abortion issue, and the contempt which our culture (as well as near all others, for that matter) shows toward women who have autonomy over their own bodies.

It goes on and on and on, but the fact remains that despite these multiple forms, and repercussions of social discrimination, the key to their perpetution lies within the system itself, and the culture that that system perpetuates in turn.
So blah.

[9]

In what way? Seriously, I've never understood this, anti-semitism is a hatred of a group of people based purely on them being seen as belonging to a certain 'ethnic group' - how is that different to any other type of racism?
This hatred has manifested itself in violence, discrimination and an attempted extermination - most groups persecuted because of their 'race' have experienced the first two, so is the only reason it's different the fact that another group of people were organised enough to almost successfully take advantage of an opportunity to carry out the last one? There are other examples of racist people trying to exterminate an entire other group of people, so how exactly does it manifest itself so differently that it should be thought of as something separate to racism?

Well, I would agree with bcbm that anti-Semitism generally manifests itself in a very peculiar way which is different than other forms of racism because of the role conspiracy theories play and have played historically in anti-Semitism. It always comes down to the notion of some cabal of Jews (the very word 'cabal' has its origins in the word 'Kabbalah' - Jewish mysticism) plotting to spread disease and butcher the goyim and take over the world. So in this sense it is a bit more complicated than mere hatred. Which isn't to say its worse than other kinds of racism; on the contrary, Jews are presently free from institutionalized discrimination in the West and most of the rest of the world (as far as I know) and have been for some years. And I agree that, for the purposes of this poll, it shouldn't constitute a category separate from racism. But I just thought I'd elaborate on what I assume bcbm meant by his comment (he can correct me if I am wrong).

[bcbm]

No, that was pretty much it. This (http://www.pinteleyid.com/past/) pamphlet explains it pretty well and also elaborates a bit on how anti-semitism can manifest in leftist movements.

[Comrade Marxist Bro]

The most serious form of discrimination is Communist genocide[1] - also known as Socialist genocide or Marxist genocide - because communists aren't supposed to discriminate.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_genocide

[Black Dagger]

^--- Ok, but if we are to accept that there is a distinct phenomenon known as 'communist genocide', how can you say that this is the 'most serious form of discrimination'?

How could a historically specific phenomenon (i.e. the Cambodian genocide) be regarded as the 'most serious form of discrimination' [ever, today included obviously] when that Genocide ended decades ago? It's essentially archaic, there are no contemporary examples of what you're referring to.

Social discrimination - social oppression on the other hand is an ongoing phemenon, something that spans the time before 'communism' and after, affecting the entire planet.

Why then are you focusing on these specific atrocities to the exclusion of the ongoing genocide of people globally through racism, and imperialism? Or the exploitation and oppression of women? Who are the global face of working people; working the most but for the smallest scraps.

The suggestion that 'communist genocide' is the most serious form of discrimination is politically motivated, and has nothing to say for the oppressed of the world today.

[the last donut of the night]

All forms of discrimination are horrible and vile. That being said, we can´t really decide which is worst because they all do the same thing: lead to people having their lives destroyed over trivial matters. Yet I could say that all these discriminatory beliefs we have listed here all lead to one thing, which we should all abhor: murder. That is the worst form of discrimination; when you don´t have the right to your own life.

[KrazyRabidSheep]

The problem with the question is it's too vague. What do you mean by "most serious"?

Outright violence? Social exclusions? Psychological manipulation? Number of people involved/ affected?

When I first read the post, my reaction was:
"Sexism, hands down. 100% of the global population is directly affected by sexism, regardless of any other social variable. Females who make up 50+% of the population (and discriminatory targets) are affected more often and more harshly. The other choices don't come close to these numbers."

Then, as I read other replies, I quickly realized most others interpreted the question much differently.

The merit of any response can only be valued on the individual interpretation of the question.

[Rascolnikova]

Class discrimination. Why is this hard?

[Abdul Alhazred]

This thread is childish and retarded.

Is there anyone on this website who is over 18 and doesn't live with their parents?

[OneNamedNameLess]

This thread is childish and retarded.

Is there anyone on this website who is over 18 and doesn't live with their parents?

Yes there is actually. I'm 19 and live with my parents :D

Why does age have to come into this? I see no reason why young people shouldn't embrace radical ideas as we are the future of the far left movement.

This website aside, you will notice that communists in the real world are of all age groups. I know more commies in the UK who are over 30 actually than younger communists.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Why does age have to come into this? Because only children believe in discrimination. It's the result of naiveté, idealism and wishful thinking.

In nature the strong dominate the weak. That is a natural law. In liberal democracy the natural order is turned upside down so that weakness becomes a virtue and strength a sin. This is simply to create and maintain a larger pool of consumers. The physically handicapped, mentally deficient, homosexuals, etc... are, therefore, worth more alive than dead.

[9]

Because only children believe in discrimination. It's the result of naiveté, idealism and wishful thinking.

You're a fucking idiot.

[Abdul Alhazred]

You're a fucking idiot.That's exactly the kind of response I'd expect from an immature mind.

[9]

Because only children believe in discrimination. It's the result of naiveté, idealism and wishful thinking.


Yes, and this is the kind of argument we'd all expect from a bonafide member of the bourgeoisie. Try leaving your gated community for once.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Yes, and this is the kind of argument we'd all expect from a bonafide member of the bourgeoisie. Try leaving your gated community for once.The reason they live behind gated communities is because others are envious of their wealth and want it for themselves, but without having to do the work and take the responsibility required to earn it.

This is because we live in a society where children's desires are fed without any cost attached and they are, therefore, not taught responsibility. Ideas like equality only breed more envy and create a class of dependent, homogenous, childish minds.

[Mujer Libre]

Please keep it civil and on-topic people. Abdul- do not use the word "retarded" as an insult.

This is a verbal warning. If you continue to do so you will receive a warning point.

[9]

The reason they live behind gated communities is because others are envious of their wealth and want it for themselves, but without having to do the work and take the responsibility required to earn it.
Right, so what exactly is your position? Clearly, you are a bigot, that has been evident before this thread. You are obviously not a leftist, as you seem to believe that capitalism functions as some sort of meritocracy. It would appear that you are some form of National Socialist troll.


This is because we live in a society where children's desires are fed without any cost attached and they are, therefore, not taught responsibility. Ideas like equality only breed more envy and create a class of dependent, homogenous, childish minds.
What the hell does that even mean? What has equality got to do with envy or dependence? Let me guess, because 'men are inherently above women and whites are inherently above blacks' or some other irrational chauvinistic deduction that you will make, which will be perfectly in line with all your other posts thus far. :rolleyes:
I wish someone would just fucking ban you already.

[Bilan]

The reason they live behind gated communities is because others are envious of their wealth and want it for themselves, but without having to do the work and take the responsibility required to earn it.

This is because we live in a society where children's desires are fed without any cost attached and they are, therefore, not taught responsibility. Ideas like equality only breed more envy and create a class of dependent, homogenous, childish minds.

Do go on.
I would like to hear you substantiate some of this nonsense. For example, "ideas" like equality? Are you suggesting that it is the ideas which create dependency, or is it instead, the existing conditions within a society which create dependecy?
That is beyond ridiculous.