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punisa
3rd August 2009, 14:51
Recently I gave an in depth analysis of the mixed situation in today's ex-Yugoslav republic of Croatia.
This is intended as a follow-up to the recent events as many asked me to report on current events.

Economy is failing and drastic moves have already been made:
- right-centrist PM resigned which led to establishment of the vice-president of his party as the next PM. This led to the situation that many became very openly angry with the decision, as this person was not (and would never be) elected by the people.
- now already the ex PM withdrew from politics and spends time sailing on a yacht which rent costs 35.000 Euro per week (cca 50.000 USD)

- as life standard goes down taxes go up. In Croatia we have PDV which roughly translates to "tax on value". This was just yesterday increased from 22 to 23%
- pensions for retired workers were reduced, a completely outrages act
- smaller companies that employ many people (including me) are bankrupting all over. Its not that we don't work enough, but the crisis created a huge blockade in the cashflow - smaller companies can not get money for their already sold services and products and in the lack of additional capital simply stop breathing. This of course hurts large corporations to a much lesser degree as they are well aligned with the banks and financial institutions etc.

- every day it seems that a very angry mass is growing in size. Word on the street is that mass protests will be held very soon, this fall. I believe this will not be just an organized union demanding certain elements. There is a great chance this will explode into a full blown revolt.

Following these observations an interesting article has been published in todays edition of nacional (local political newspaper, probbably the last one that is not aligned with the current government) wich revealed details on how the goverment plans to break the upcoming revolt:
- chief of police suddenly got fired for no reason
- new top officials were institued into police organization
- detailed outlines and plans were created how the police should fight off the protesters - police brutality sponsored by the government.

This is all to be expected. I have no doubt that these octopus traitors would turn to shooting its own people just to remain the grip on power.
The goverment is directly manipulated (and consists of) post-war profiters.
Croatia is a nation that has been burglarized by capitalist mafia. Everything that the working people created over the 50 years in socialism was stolen away from them during the privatisation period (period that took place while majority of people were on the front fighting a war).

Regarding the anticipating revolts - I picked up an interesting bit of info today, which I'd appreciate to hear your comments about.
The guy in the police squad told me they know about the orders to crush the large upcoming revolts, but that no man in his station will attack the people.
I also found similar information from other police stations.

Unlike in a "well-organized" capitalist states, the police in Croatia is having a really hard time making a living. Their standards have been decresing for years now.
I'm not an utopist on this one, but i do believe that sort of mutiny in the capitalist defense system could happen.
Such therotical events would give a huge boost to the masses.

Naturally there are many well paid guard dogs whose only service in life is to defend their masters, but even these could not stop the angry masses.

Drawbacks:
- every attempt till now have shown that people act very lethargic towards protests. But this was like a year ago, while majority were still enjoying a so-so quality of life
- Croatia is well controled from the west and has just recently joined the NATO. Could this and how, affect the revolts?
- I haven't still heard the "S" word when speaking with people about revolting. Is this normal or do we lack the socialist element needed to make something out of it?

I'd really appreciate your comments, especially those more experienced in protests against goverments. How did it work out for you? What were the results? Did you have vanguards leading the protests or was it a "spontaneous combustion" ?
Also I'd like to know the advantages/disadvantages of potential collaboration with police?

One last thing: I'm equally Marxist as you are and all of you that read my posts know that. But for the sake of efficiency, I'd like to steer away from "workers need to control the means of production" or "money should be abolished on sight".
Why? Cause where I'm now I'm 1 out 500.000 that understands what this actually means :laugh:
All in good time, I need advices on what to do tommorow.

cyu
3rd August 2009, 20:01
the police in Croatia is having a really hard time making a living. Their standards have been decresing for years now. I'm not an utopist on this one, but i do believe that sort of mutiny in the capitalist defense system could happen... Also I'd like to know the advantages/disadvantages of potential collaboration with police?

There have in fact been police strikes in the history of labor. If you can not only encourage the police to go on strike, but also to defend employees that assume control over their companies, then you're basically in the process of setting up a shadow alternative government - with enough community outreach and support, it may just completely replace the current regime and either result in the current rulers going into exile or "mysteriously" changing their tone and saying they supported you all along.

punisa
3rd August 2009, 21:18
with enough community outreach and support, it may just completely replace the current regime and either result in the current rulers going into exile or "mysteriously" changing their tone and saying they supported you all along.

Indeed you are correct, I believe in any other times the government would just "go soft" and agree to some demands in order to hush down the angry mob.
But what if there is no possible way of doing it anymore? I suspect, and I think I may be right, that the money chest is - empty.
I don't think there are tangible ways to please the masses, even for a short period of time.

As for the police, I'm really not sure what to expect. The situation of "give it all up and join the people" happens only in a socialist's wet dream, right? :lol:
Still, I don't see how the revolts can be successful if there is no man/woman/party in front of it?
I mean, there would be no October Revolution without Lenin (or someone else).

So my question is this: what to expect from the angry mass that obviously has no leader/leadership? If it did have one, I'd be the first to know about it :lol:
Unfortunately I'm not that well informed about the neighboring countries, but I have a feeling that political climate there is also very similar.

Kukulofori
3rd August 2009, 21:43
Weren't you just saying like... 3 days ago how there's almost no revolutionary potential? Stuff like this gives me some hope for the US.

another thing you should be doing is educating people on an individual basis. If a revolt needs a leader then there's not enough class consciousness for it to be worth a shit anyway.

Pogue
3rd August 2009, 21:45
Indeed you are correct, I believe in any other times the government would just "go soft" and agree to some demands in order to hush down the angry mob.
But what if there is no possible way of doing it anymore? I suspect, and I think I may be right, that the money chest is - empty.
I don't think there are tangible ways to please the masses, even for a short period of time.

As for the police, I'm really not sure what to expect. The situation of "give it all up and join the people" happens only in a socialist's wet dream, right? :lol:
Still, I don't see how the revolts can be successful if there is no man/woman/party in front of it?
I mean, there would be no October Revolution without Lenin (or someone else).

So my question is this: what to expect from the angry mass that obviously has no leader/leadership? If it did have one, I'd be the first to know about it :lol:
Unfortunately I'm not that well informed about the neighboring countries, but I have a feeling that political climate there is also very similar.

I think its essentially a bourgeois analysis to think the revolution would not have happened without Lenin.

punisa
3rd August 2009, 22:58
Weren't you just saying like... 3 days ago how there's almost no revolutionary potential? Stuff like this gives me some hope for the US.

another thing you should be doing is educating people on an individual basis. If a revolt needs a leader then there's not enough class consciousness for it to be worth a shit anyway.

Exactly the point my friend. Although, there is revolting potential - There is no revolutionary potential. If I may express myself this way.
And as you said: "it ain't worth shit".

When the point is reached when people will not be able to pay back the debts they acquired over the years (aggressive private bank promotion), they will have no alternative then to "go to the streets".

This is indeed a follow up to the post I made a few days ago, just in more details. Same thing still worries me.
A revolutionary potential going to waste.

Thus I said, there is no mentioning of the "S" word - referring to socialism.

When things start to go downhill as they did over here, the only option will be to go to the streets and demand something, anything.
Unfortunately this will only result in rulers giving them crumbs, and everyone will walk away home happily. Not realizing they have been cheated once more.

It could be even worse then that. A quick glance at the enemy's turf - nationalist, white pride, fascist and similar organizations I mentioned in my previous post and the stormfront shows that ultra right is actively discussing how this government must be taken down.

In such case, the "change" if it happens, could be for the worse !
Unfortunately this fear is real. How many Croats did you meat here at RevLeft? Or how many of them are active in the subsection called "West Balkans"? Not to many, while on the stormfront you have thousands.

Angry workers - yes
climate ready for revolts - yes
revolutionary potential - no

I do hope I'll digg out some good news soon, cause all this sounds rather bleak doesn't it ? :(

punisa
3rd August 2009, 23:08
I think its essentially a bourgeois analysis to think the revolution would not have happened without Lenin.

It's like saying that car would start without gasoline.
Right, in days of the October revolutionary propaganda was not scarce, thus common people could educate themselves about socialist revolution even without Lenin. But again, this is a veeeery long shot.
Somewhere along the lines of that car I mentioned finding gasoline on its own.

I have a great book called "October 1917", I'll update it with the name of the author when I get to it.
Basically its not a regular descriptive history book, its just testimonials. Hundreds and hundreds of signed testimonials of common workers and people that were there for the October Revolution. Great insight into what people were really thinking back then.
The view of Lenin they had was close to that view catholics have of Christ.

"Soon Lenin will come and all will be good" repeats almost forever.
And these WERE the days when socialists dedicated a lot of their time to spread propaganda and revolutionary ideas.

As for today's Croatia - Do you honestly believe that the people which don't have a clue about socialism.. no, make it - believe socialism is an evil empire that killed their families, would jump to a self spontaneous socialist revolution?

Do you comment just because you're too bored or really hold that opinion? If it's the first, then you're off the hook. If it's the second.. I'd be worried.

cyu
4th August 2009, 20:11
I don't think there are tangible ways to please the masses, even for a short period of time.

Democratic control of their companies would be a good start.


The situation of "give it all up and join the people" happens only in a socialist's wet dream, right?

Dreams sometimes do come true: See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Police_strikes


what to expect from the angry mass that obviously has no leader/leadership?

I don't support single individuals, I support policies. Individuals can be corrupted - and no individual can be right 100% of the time. If an individual does something right, praise the policy, not the individual. If the individual does something wrong, condemn the policy, not the individual. If you stake your entire reputation on an individual or organization, then you risk too much - you know everyone will make mistakes, and when they do, it will just open you up for attack.

So if I don't support individuals, what policies do I support? For anarcho-syndicalists, the first obvious thing is democracy in the workplace. Would you say if all companies were run democratically in a society without a "leader", it is doomed to failure?

RedScare
4th August 2009, 20:15
Very interesting. I've heard absolutely nothing in the western media about any of this, but I suppose that's to be expected.