Liberalism

[Kukulofori]

Is there some way that liberalism is worse than other forms of capitalism?

What about the Swedish model?

[GPDP]

Depends on who you ask. Some will say contemporary liberal democracy has adapted to the point it has successfully placated the working class through reforms, whereas with a more naked form of capitalism, such as laissez-faire libertarianism or totalitarian fascism, the atmosphere would breed resistance. But then again, outside a few nutcases here or there, you won't see us advocate the installation of libertarianism or fascism. I sure as hell would not wish such a hellish nightmare on anyone. The US may be bad, but I don't wanna see it turn into Somalia or Nazi Germany.

If fascism is 1984, then liberalism as it currently exists would be Brave New World. Roughly, of course. You tell me which scenario is worse, both in terms of actually living in them and in the prospects of overthrowing them.

Remember, though: the privileges bestowed upon us by the state, even the meager ones here in the US, are a direct result of past struggles to attain them. Things used to be much worse, and the ruling class can't get away with half the crap they used to. Yes, we're a long way off from our goal, but keeping that in mind helps us reconcile the call for the defense and even the extension of those reforms with our work towards overthrowing the system.

[yuon]

I think that trying to claim that Brave New World is equivalent to a liberal ideal (or even the liberal reality) is a misunderstanding of liberalism.

Liberalism is about freedom, certainly the freedom to get rich, but also not to be oppressed by the government. Liberals though, do think that government is needed, if only to stop the poor from taking the rich's stuff.

Brave New World, however, is much more fascistic. People's roles are decided for them from before birth, there are defined classes of people. There is nothing liberal about that.

So far as it goes, liberalism, and social welfare (which don't always go hand in hand, indeed, small state liberalism (classical liberalism), tends to be against too much, if any, welfare state), are the "best" forms of capitalism. Liberalism offers maximum freedom (though still within the capitalist paradigm), while having social welfare prevents anyone from starving.

(Oh, and Sweden, while having some nice features compared to most other states, isn't anywhere near ideal. It through out some of the liberal ideas of freedom, you aren't allowed to use drugs, and alcohol is taxed quite high. And, it used to be, that forced sterilisation happened a lot in Sweden, even into the 1940's (and maybe later, not sure). That's hardly a liberal ideal...)

[GPDP]

I think that trying to claim that Brave New World is equivalent to a liberal ideal (or even the liberal reality) is a misunderstanding of liberalism.

I was speaking more in terms of the placation of the working class through entertainment and such, rather than naked oppression. Instead of being forcibly repressed in police state fashion (though we have been moving in that direction as of late), we have instead been pacified and made complacent with the status quo through the media, the indoc- I mean, education system, etc. Yes, there are pockets of resistance here and there, and there has been a resurgence of calls for change, but for the most part, people accept the system as fair and just, or if they don't, they think of it as the best we can get. This is why some on the left would argue contemporary liberal democracy is worse for the class struggle than a more blatantly oppresive system.

My analogy with Brave New World didn't really go much further than that, and I apologize if I made it seem like it's contemporary liberalism in practice. I know what all the buzzwords and ideals of liberalism are, both classical and modern, but I'm dealing with the current reality, not in the realm of abstract ideas.

[Chow Foo]

Uh... Sweden is a social democracy, not a liberal democracy.

[Absolut]

(Oh, and Sweden, while having some nice features compared to most other states, isn't anywhere near ideal. It through out some of the liberal ideas of freedom, you aren't allowed to use drugs, and alcohol is taxed quite high. And, it used to be, that forced sterilisation happened a lot in Sweden, even into the 1940's (and maybe later, not sure). That's hardly a liberal ideal...)

Pretty much this.

The Swedish model isnt really liberalism, its a social democratic concept that, while on one hand supplying its citizens with the basic necessities of life if they cant care for themselves but at the same time maintaining the basic capitalist model, with employers and employees and so on. This has changed during the last 20-30 years though, with rapid privatisations and serious downcuts in the social welfare. As an example, the pharmacies, which were previously owned by the state, are now being privatised and new educational reforms which basically undermines the idea that everyone has an equal right to an education are being voted through the parliament. Worth mentioning is that since 2006 weve had a rightist government, and a very passive opposition that pretty much let it happen, while only criticizing the most blatant attackes on our social welfare.

And yes, the taxes are quite high in Sweden, and theyre currently being cut, along with the social welfare. Obviously, the first taxes that the rightist government cut were the ones directed at the wealthy. Either way, Im not sure about the exact percentage that were being taxed, but Ive heard its amongst the highest taxes in the world, and I can well imagine that.

About the forced sterilisations during the first half of the century, thats correct as well, several tens of thousands of people were sterilised. Worth mentioning could also be the racial hygiene programs that were very prominent in Sweden until WWII, there were a few institutions if Im not mistaken.

Im sure someone else can give a more detailed description of the situation in Sweden right now and the past 70 years or so. Ive never really taken an interest in it, so I might be wrong about some facts and something but I hope I gave you some general idea.