Some noob questions

[Forrest]

When should a proletarian revolution take place, does the entire world have to be modernized, do the workers need to have certain technologies to have a successful world revolution? Does every nation have to be capitalist? Does the revolution have to be international to be successful?

What exactly is needed for a successful proletarian revolution????

Also, what sort of government should exist between capitalism and communism to ensure the interests of the workers?

[ellipsis]

These are all complex questions that are heavily debated on by revolutionary leftists. these are not n00b questions but one's we all should be asking

"Also, what sort of government should exist between capitalism and communism to ensure the interests of the workers?"- In traditional Marxist thought, a system called a Dictatorship of the Proletariat will ensure the creation of class-less society and the realization of final stage of socialism, the dissolution of the state. But that is not accepted by all. Many would argue that it is too hard for the dictatorship to not be corrupted and attempt to hold power, a situation called a dictatorship of the party.

hope that helps a little:D

[Misanthrope]

When should a proletarian revolution take place

What exactly is needed for a successful proletarian revolution????

Also, what sort of government should exist between capitalism and communism to ensure the interests of the workers?

A proletarian revolution should take place when industrial capitalism is present. A communist revolution in a feudal or peasant society will most likely fail (see: Russian Revolution --> Soviet Union).

The government in a revolutionary period is a highly debated topic. I believe the only government that would represent the worker's interests in a revolutionary period would have to be a voluntary emergent government, i.e. not a state, rather workers councils, communes, restrictive covenants ect. A revolutionary period is still a class society, the state fundamentally has common interests with the higher social classes, it will not serve the workers.

If you disagree or have any further questions, don't hesitate to reply, comrade.

[mikelepore]

A proletarian revolution should take place when industrial capitalism is present.

That's right. After the change that's usually called the industrial revolution, the machines have created the possibility to have plenty for all and remove strenuous work. The potential for the benefits of socialism is present in the machines. When the workers are willing to organize and change the system, they will be catching up with a potential that is already there.

[mikelepore]

I expect the classless society of the future to continue using the political form of government which we can recognize as John Locke's concept of elected representation, and the form that Rousseau called the three branches of government, the legislative, executive and judicial branches. The need to pass and enforce laws will be the same as it is today in some respects, but significantly smaller in the necessary magnitude of these efforts. A network of workers' organizations will be the industrial management. I think the use of nested geographical constituencies, the towns, counties and provinces, will vanish, since it will be recognized that such demarcations are arbitrary, inherited by default from the past, and not meaningful. A gradual abolition of national boundaries will occur through the voluntary mergers of socialist countries into a world administration.

[Forrest]

A proletarian revolution should take place when industrial capitalism is present. A communist revolution in a feudal or peasant society will most likely fail (see: Russian Revolution --> Soviet Union).

So will the world have to wait for all the countries to industrialize or do they not have to all revolt at once?


The government in a revolutionary period is a highly debated topic. I believe the only government that would represent the worker's interests in a revolutionary period would have to be a voluntary emergent government, i.e. not a state, rather workers councils, communes, restrictive covenants ect. A revolutionary period is still a class society, the state fundamentally has common interests with the higher social classes, it will not serve the workers.

So anarcho-syndicalism? Geographically how centralized do you think the government should be? Do you think there should just be a lot of scattered self managing communes?

[Misanthrope]

So will the world have to wait for all the countries to industrialize or do they not have to all revolt at once?



So anarcho-syndicalism? Geographically how centralized do you think the government should be? Do you think there should just be a lot of scattered self managing communes?

I think a given single area can have a workers revolt, where they seize the means of production.

I don't specifically identify with syndicalism but sure. I think government would be on a very local level.

[Forrest]

I think a given single area can have a workers revolt, where they seize the means of production.

But the workers can't possibly remain in control for long with all the outside pressures undoubtedly seeking their demise. All the previous attempts kind of showed that, right?

[Misanthrope]

But the workers can't possibly remain in control for long with all the outside pressures undoubtedly seeking their demise. All the previous attempts kind of showed that, right?

What previous attempts? Anarchist Spain? Untrained workers against Axis funded soldiers?

[Forrest]

Other places as well, russia, china, cuba, and others... Why didn't they become democratic and why did the workers become powerless again? Just gullible people with fascist leaders or because of outside pressures?

[Durruti's Ghost]

Other places as well, russia, china, cuba, and others... Why didn't they become democratic and why did the workers become powerless again? Just gullible people with fascist leaders or because of outside pressures?

In the case of the Soviet Union, outside pressures allowed the group that would later become the Communist Party bureaucracy to begin consolidating power in late 1917, which set off a chain of events that culminated in the rise of Stalin and state capitalism. I can't really speak about the others, since I'm not particularly familiar with the events surrounding their revolutions; however, my gut feeling is that they were heavily influenced by the state capitalism of the USSR, causing them to be deformed from the start.

So, yes, historical facts do seem to indicate that a socialist society cannot last long against the pressures of outside capitalist forces. One possible counterexample consists of the EZLN territories in Chiapas; however, we do not yet know their ultimate fate and they may fail as well. Bearing this in mind, I think that any working class revolution that springs up in one country should immediately set about inciting revolutions in other countries with strong proletarian class-consciousness as well, because 1) successful revolutions of that sort would decrease the burden of outside capitalist pressure on the initial revolutionary group and 2) why the hell not?

[Forrest]

In the case of the Soviet Union, outside pressures allowed the group that would later become the Communist Party bureaucracy to begin consolidating power in late 1917, which set off a chain of events that culminated in the rise of Stalin and state capitalism.

By allow do you mean they just stood and watched or that they actually aided them?

[Durruti's Ghost]

By allow do you mean they just stood and watched or that they actually aided them?

More like created the conditions that resulted in their rise to power. When the Whites essentially invaded the nascent Soviet Union, the factory committees had not had enough time to organize into a sufficiently unified force to mount a resistance, economically or militarily. Instead, the Bolshevik-run State took over that role and, at the same time, began the process of suppressing the factory committees, instituting centralized State planning, etc; you can read about it in greater detail at http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticlePrint/6498. It's an interesting, albeit tragic, story.