Communism

[Stand Your Ground]

My girlfriend says that Communists don't give their people freedom..?

Replies?

[Dr Mindbender]

My girlfriend says that Communists don't give their people freedom..?

Replies?

Ask her why she thinks this.

This is an unsubstantiated statement, not an argument.

Communists have never been in a position to remove anyones freedom so theres no living experience of her claim.

[Ovi]

Is she a troll?

[Misanthrope]

Restrict her to O.I.

not really, but seriously.



Communists have never been in a position to remove anyones freedom

*cough* Kronstadt *cough*

[F9]

Moved


My girlfriend says that Communists don't give their people freedom..?

Replies?

Lies.She obviously dont knows what she is talking about..Communism is freedom.

Fuserg9:star:

[mikelepore]

Forms of government often take away freedom. An economic system is a separate subject. People have never lost their freedom because industries were operated on a nonprofit basis. People have often lost their freedom due to unwisely constructed forms of government.

[Manifesto]

I take it she is thinking about the U.S.S.R.?

[RedCommieBear]

Was this thread just an excuse to mention that you have a girlfriend?

Maybe bring up the idea of positive and negative liberty? That would poke a hole in the notion that capitalist countries are free.

[Nwoye]

My girlfriend says that Communists don't give their people freedom..?

Replies?
punch her in the fucking head

[nuisance]

Ask her why she thinks this.

This is an unsubstantiated statement, not an argument.

Communists have never been in a position to remove anyones freedom so theres no living experience of her claim.
Really, do you actually believe that? It's a clearly substantiated by the actual practicings of Communists (big c Communists) once they have gained State power.

[BobKKKindle$]

Forms of government often take away freedom. An economic system is a separate subject. People have never lost their freedom because industries were operated on a nonprofit basis. People have often lost their freedom due to unwisely constructed forms of government.

There seems to be a lot wrong with this. The distinction between economic and political spheres is invalid because it neglects the ways in which actors who have access to economic privileges such as ownership of the means of production can use those privileges to influence the institutions and processes that most people would regard as being part of the political sphere, even when they are formally entitled to the same degree of political power as everyone else - specifically the ability to vote for the candidate of their choice every four years or so. This is a basic point which you seem to neglect, despite it forming the basis of the Marxist critique of bourgeois democracy. There is also the more fundamental point that capitalism and all other economic systems involve contracts and transactions which need to be enforced in order to make those systems viable, and that system of enforcement comes in the form of government action, which is not qualitatively different from anything else the government does, such as limiting free speech, and punishing people for taking drugs, etc - in all cases governments are using violence to prevent people from doing certain things. On a more nuanced level there is also the point that politics is not just about institutions, rather, it is fundamentally about power relations (hence the feminist slogan "the personal is political", based on the observation that personal relations embody power inequalities) and if we take this definition, then it becomes clear that economics is very much part of political analysis, because which class we fall into determines whether we find ourselves exercising power, or being subject to the power of other individuals, specifically members of the ruling class who decide the price of our labour-power and other conditions of employment. This in turn means that capitalism can be considered a detriment to our freedom (and economic systems are in general relevant to debates about how much freedom we enjoy and what it means to be free) because it places us in positions of dependence on others and, by forcing us to enter into a wage-labour relationship, deprives us of the ability to pursue our talents and obtain self-realization. This is the reality of life under capitalism regardless of whether we are living under a democratic regime (insofar as any regime under capitalism can be democratic in light of my first point) or the most ruthless dictatorship. Or, to look at the other side of the coin, the struggle against capitalism is very much a struggle for freedom in its most meaningful sense, and man cannot be free as long as he continues to endure wage-labour and inhabit a class society. In this respect I completely agree with Fuserg9.

I noticed in another thread you suggested that Rousseau argued in favour of government divided into executive, legislative, and judicial branches. If you had read The Social Contract you would know that Rousseau argues no such thing. In fact, when he uses the term "government" he refers only to those who are responsible for the enforcement of laws that have already been passed by an assembly consisting of all the members of the community, which Rousseau terms the sovereign. This assembly, according to Rousseau, should be be bound in any way, and the only condition on what it can do is that its decisions must come in the form of laws - i.e. rules that apply in a non-discriminatory fashion to the entire community without targeting any particular group or individual. So clearly, you need to read up on your political theory. Sorry if that sounds rude.

To the OP, why don't you ask your friend if we are free under capitalism? Do we control the direction of our lives? If not, how might we change this?

[Stand Your Ground]

Ask her why she thinks this.

This is an unsubstantiated statement, not an argument.

Communists have never been in a position to remove anyones freedom so theres no living experience of her claim.
She said she learned in 'school' that Communists are bad...

Is she a troll?
No lol.

Moved



Lies.She obviously dont knows what she is talking about..Communism is freedom.

Fuserg9:star:
That's what I said.

I take it she is thinking about the U.S.S.R.?
Yep.

Was this thread just an excuse to mention that you have a girlfriend?

Maybe bring up the idea of positive and negative liberty? That would poke a hole in the notion that capitalist countries are free.
No lol. Thank you.

punch her in the fucking head
LOL!:laugh:

[Pogue]

pointless thread is pointless

[Kukulofori]

try something a little more substantial than "nuh-uh".

talk about the various ways that the state and property restrict freedom and how that is their sole function.

[Old Man Diogenes]

My girlfriend says that Communists don't give their people freedom..?

Replies?

She's probably referring to the sort of things that have happened under "Socialist" States like the USSR, Cuba, China and that sort of thing, Pure Communism is ultimate equality and freedom. People who say that sort of thing don't know what Communism means, they have sort of as vague media influenced idea.

[NecroCommie]

Freedom is a subjective term and is often misused. There is no such thing as "blank" freedom. Freedom needs to have a target to mean anything. You can be free from jail, free to go to jail, free to kill that guy, free to run away, free to insert activity here. It is quite obvious that many freedoms contradict each other so it is therefore impossible to be "blank" freedom.

Based on this you must ask her which freedom does she mean. And if she actually succeeds in answering an actual freedom that communism restricts, then you can always invert that freedom and use it as a counter-argument.

For example, she answers

- In communism you are not free to own means of production.

To which you answer:

- In communism everyone is free to use means of production.

This is a pure linguistic fact and cannot be countered if used properly. Hallowed be the fools who use the word "freedom" while arguing me!

[Forward Union]

My girlfriend says that Communists don't give their people freedom..?

Replies?

Not true at all, communism favours direct-democracy. In fact, there would be no central authority in a communist society in order to limit any such freedoms.

All laws would be self-agreed by assemblies of people.

She is referring to the actions of various Communist-Parties in the 20th and 21st centuries, who never claimed to have establish a communist society, but a Socialist one. Most communists here disagree with their actions.

[Communist Theory]

Tell her to wikipedia it.

[Chow Foo]

Communism has not existed yet, how did she know ?

[Misanthrope]

Communism has not existed yet, how did she know ?

ITT: kill her for her time machine

[LeninKobaMao]

punch her in the fucking head

Violence against women -_-

[Nwoye]

Violence against women -_-
ohhh ur a defender of women's rights omg do me.

it was a joke.