China's Red Army and the Japanese

[Conquer or Die]

According to Wikipedia and the author of the book of lies on Mao Zedong, the Red Army in China did little to nothing to combat Japanese Nationalist forces. I haven't been able to find any further information on the subject. Does anybody know of sources which provide accurate data on the role of the precursor to the PLA in its fighting of imperial Japan?

[khad]

According to Wikipedia and the author of the book of lies on Mao Zedong, the Red Army in China did little to nothing to combat Japanese Nationalist forces. I haven't been able to find any further information on the subject. Does anybody know of sources which provide accurate data on the role of the precursor to the PLA in its fighting of imperial Japan?

The early military successes of the PLA resulted in a Japanese scorched earth policy that decimated large swathes of the countryside. They were not able to seriously contest the Japanese army since then, but they were actively involved in ground-level base building and guerilla attacks. They effectively tied down hundreds of thousands of Japanese troops.

It is perhaps telling that the Japanese even had something of an inflated fear of the Chinese Communists--when they went to villages they asked for the names of communist agents; they didn't give a damn about nationalist spies.

Just as a historical note, there was a Japanese communist party office in Yenan, and there were defectors in the PLA ranks. However, there were far more working for the Nationalists, who kept the Japanese army armed and in the field until at least 1947 to fight the communists. Just stick this little fact in the face of any reactionary who tries to claim that the Nationalists were the ones who fought the Japanese. The first thing many Nationalist officers did when the war ended was to send gifts to the Japanese top brass.

[Conquer or Die]

The early military successes of the PLA resulted in a Japanese scorched earth policy that decimated large swathes of the countryside. They were not able to seriously contest the Japanese army since then, but they were actively involved in ground-level base building and guerilla attacks. They effectively tied down hundreds of thousands of Japanese troops.

It is perhaps telling that the Japanese even had something of an inflated fear of the Chinese Communists--when they went to villages they asked for the names of communist agents; they didn't give a damn about nationalist spies.

Just as a historical note, there was a Japanese communist party office in Yenan, and there were defectors in the PLA ranks. However, there were far more working for the Nationalists, who kept the Japanese army armed and in the field until at least 1947 to fight the communists. Just stick this little fact in the face of any reactionary who tries to claim that the Nationalists were the ones who fought the Japanese.

I appreciate the response. Could you perhaps cite some sources and expand your thoughts, especially the latter point about Nationalists inflating Japanese armed forces and the role of spies.

[khad]

I appreciate the response. Could you perhaps cite some sources and expand your thoughts, especially the latter point about Nationalists inflating Japanese armed forces and the role of spies.

I have an article on what happened to the IJA after the war in China. This is probably one of the few informative articles I've seen, as this is a pretty marginal topic for a whole host of political reasons on all sides.

Staying On: Japanese Soldiers and Civilians in China, 1945-1949
Donald G. Gillin and Charles Etter
The Journal of Asian Studies, Vol. 42, No. 3 (May, 1983), pp. 497-518

http://www.badongo.com/file/16325869

[khad]

If you have evidence to show otherwise, you can go to the site and argue against their propaganda line there.

I also despise falsification of history, for example the western lie about Chamberlain's plot to instigate a German-Soviet war which is suppressed in western history.
I have more things to do than to join another forum just to debate a bunch of reactionaries. I have cited a scholarly article on the relevant subject, so don't presume to lecture me.

What the Nationalists did in terms of obsequious collaboration with the Japanese Army and Japanese capitalists immediately following the war automatically negates whatever claim they have of being the "legitimate" anti-Japanese resistance.


<snip>Stop spamming. You are insulting my and everyone else's intelligence.

[Conquer or Die]

I have an article on what happened to the IJA after the war in China. This is probably one of the few informative articles I've seen, as this is a pretty marginal topic for a whole host of political reasons on all sides.

Staying On: Japanese Soldiers and Civilians in China, 1945-1949
Donald G. Gillin and Charles Etter
The Journal of Asian Studies, Vol. 42, No. 3 (May, 1983), pp. 497-518

http://www.badongo.com/file/16325869

Thank you very much for this article. Very informative.

[khad]

Link doesn't work.
You didn't miss much. Just a bunch of people with shrill, tremulous voices whining that the Nationalists didn't do guerrilla warfare because they cared about mass reprisals against the civilian population.

Bullshit. They would have done guerrilla warfare if they could--if only the peasants didn't regard the Nationalist army as a bunch of murderous thieves. The great Generalissimo killed 500,000 civilians in one go when he blew the dams on the Yellow River in a pathetic attempt to stop the Japanese (he didn't).

[Bankotsu]

WW2: Who contributed the most?, did the Kuomintang contribute more than the CCP?
//chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=31302


Some quotes for those who can't access:



when the 2nd sino-japanese war began, the KMT did most of the fighting and most of the dying as well

yet today the CCP seems to downplay the good the KMT did and attempt to whitewash their own sorry contribution to fighting the invaders.

thoughts?


True. Weren't nearly all the major battles actually fought by the KMT?


Most of the battles during WWII against Japanese were fought by KMT. Clearly, KMT has to be credited for doing most of the fighting.


1. KMT troops did most of the hard fighting and dying in pitched battles agains Japanese regulars, especially early in the war.

2. CCP guerilla tacitcs seemed to produce better kill/casualty ratio in terms of combatants. However, Japanese reprisals (war crimes) against Chinese civilians in places where CCP guerillas were active resulted in enormous civilian casualties. That was one of the reasons why KMT leadership was reluctant to engage in extensive guerilla warfare against Japanese.

3. If either KMT or CCP had exclusive unchallenged rule of all of China, chances are that each of them would have made accommodations with Japan, just like Manchu/Qing did. It was the fear of losing legitmacy to the other competing claimant to Middle Kingdom that kept both in the fighting (aside from occasional accommodations with specific Japanese units informally). While the fighting was on going, Chinese got to witness what a sham the Japanese utopia of "Greater Easter Asia Co-prosperity Sphere" or "Asia for Asians" really was.

4. After mid-1942 (Battle of Midway), eventual allied victory became certainty. Both KMT and CCP strived to preserve their own strength instead of actively engaging Japanese.

5. Both KMT and CCP would like to claim the lion's share of the credit after WWII, for obvious political reasons.



Your point one is correct. I happened to re-read Arthur Young, and he had the numbers about the Japanese troops tied down in China, as well as numbers killed.

The second point was wrong. Communist troops had only eliminated government troops and guerrilla forces. Even so, government - mostly non-central-armies, and government or gentry-organized guerrillas, continued on the fighting till the Japanese surrender. Whereas, communist armies avoided fightings from 1940 to 1945. Their cadres were having Rectification Movement in Yenan. Vladimirov Diaries confirmed the number of battles communist troops fought against government troops and guerrilla forces from 1943 to 1944. Should you say communists dominated North CHina already, where those battles were from?

Excerpts from Vladimirov Diaries.

仅 仅在1943年里，“新四军就对中央军进行了724次战斗，结果，击毙击伤8181 人，俘获9879人，夺取了34个据点，以及8622支步枪，507支散弹枪，以及200挺机关枪。”因此 ，日本在4月17日发动的针对河南地区的大规模 进攻，明显地受到了毛泽东等人的欢迎。“中共无意在这一地区帮助中央军防御日本人的进攻。”

Above stated: New Foruth Army fought 724 battles against the government troops and guerrilla forces in year 1943 alone.

Your point three was an extrapolation of your "free competition theme".

Point 4 was from Comintern propaganda.

[khad]

And none of these people ask the real questions.

Who was it who kept the Japanese Army armed and in the field until 1947?
Who was it who continued to grant land concessions to the Japanese?
Who was it who got on their hands and knees with gifts for that war criminal Yasuji Okamura when he surrendered?
Who was it who murdered nearly as many Chinese civilians as the Japanese?

There is only one answer.

[Conquer or Die]

Is there perhaps a list of academic military sources that anybody is privvy to?

[Small Geezer]

who was it who kept the japanese army armed and in the field until 1947?


1947?

[khad]

1947?
Yes, the Chinese nationalists retained tens of thousands (perhaps even more than 100,000) of Japanese troops for security purposes after the war. While they were awaiting repatriation, they guarded key sites such as depots and railway facilities, and some were pressed into elite forces which the Nationalists and various warlords then turned on the people of China.

[Bankotsu]

Yes, the Chinese nationalists retained tens of thousands (perhaps even more than 100,000) of Japanese troops for security purposes after the war. While they were awaiting repatriation, they guarded key sites such as depots and railway facilities, and some were pressed into elite forces which the Nationalists and various warlords then turned on the people of China.

Ya, that's true.


There's a discussion here:




Japanese troops fighting for the KMT and the CCP 1945-1949

Hello,

I've read that there were significant numbers of former Japanese troops fighting for both the KMT and CCP during the Chinese Civil war 1945-1949.

Does anyone know if:

1. They had significant effect in the fighting?

2. Which side utilized them more?

3. How were they utilized by both sides?(as frontline troops etc.)

http://www.forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=139240 (http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=139240)
http://www.forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=104184 (http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=104184)

[khad]

The Gillin and Etter article provides a more systematic overview of how, when, and where Japanese stragglers fought in the Chinese Civil War. The authors also seem to suggest that there was a tacit diplomatic agreement between Japan and the Nationalists whereby Japan would allow the Nationalists to have mercenaries in exchange for land concessions and good relations in the future. Many Nationalist and Japanese officers remained close friends until the end of their lives.

Staying On: Japanese Soldiers and Civilians in China, 1945-1949
Donald G. Gillin and Charles Etter
The Journal of Asian Studies, Vol. 42, No. 3 (May, 1983), pp. 497-518

http://www.badongo.com/file/16325869