newbie

[Roark]

IF Communism is a socioeconomic structure and political ideology that promotes the establishment of an egalitarian, classless, stateless society based on common ownership and control of the means of production and property in general how..... let's break this down.

Egalitarian : everyone is purposed equal under political, economic and social rights, is this advocating no special treatment for the gifted or mentally incapacitated... clearly some mentally incapacitated people are unable to work or contribute towards the 'collective'. OR if they are mentally insane and commit a murder is this treated differently then everyone else?


Classless: everyone cannot carry out the same type of work. because of physical differences between men and women, for example, women are not able to do hard labor as well as men. people possess different dexterities inherently.

Stateless: who takes care of defense?

sorry for the questions, I am new to these ideas.

[StalinFanboy]

IF Communism is a socioeconomic structure and political ideology that promotes the establishment of an egalitarian, classless, stateless society based on common ownership and control of the means of production and property in general how..... let's break this down.

Egalitarian : everyone is purposed equal under political, economic and social rights, is this advocating no special treatment for the gifted or mentally incapacitated... clearly some mentally incapacitated people are unable to work or contribute towards the 'collective'. OR if they are mentally insane and commit a murder is this treated differently then everyone else?
From each according to their ability to each according to their needs.




Classless: everyone cannot carry out the same type of work. because of physical differences between men and women, for example, women are not able to do hard labor as well as men. people possess different dexterities inherently. Refer to the above. Also, class refers to ones relation to the means of production.


Stateless: who takes care of defense? We do.


sorry for the questions, I am new to these ideas.
Hai

[Roark]

From each according to their ability to each according to their needs.

Then where is the incentive to perform to your ability?



We do.



what are you protecting? and is this mandatory?

[Kukulofori]

We're talking about a society that just consciously and forcefully overthrew its own state. Good luck to any invading force trying to even match the state.

It's not like the current state of war in the west where it's us invading some random country and nobody at home really cares. We're talking about a full-out invasion, something you can't just go home and forget about that night. There's nobody forcing anybody to take part in the defense, but I suspect they will anyway simply because they don't like the idea of being invaded.

[WhitemageofDOOM]

Welcome to the left comrade.;)


If Communism

You should know, that not all of the left is communism and not all socialism is communism. I am an advocate of technocracy, for instance.


Egalitarian : everyone is purposed equal under political, economic and social rights, is this advocating no special treatment for the gifted or mentally incapacitated... clearly some mentally incapacitated people are unable to work or contribute towards the 'collective'. OR if they are mentally insane and commit a murder is this treated differently then everyone else?All human beings are people, deserving equal respect. This is the fundamental basis of democracy is it not? We on the left believe this truism should be applied to all of society.
I think you will find, that everyone has something to contribute to society if you look hard enough. And if they are so deficient as to be unable to contribute(which i highly doubt), why should we punish them further. The universe has already dealt them a cruel hand, one only has one life after all they deserve our sympathy not our scorn.


Classless: everyone cannot carry out the same type of work. because of physical differences between men and women, for example, women are not able to do hard labor as well as men. people possess different dexterities inherently.Indeed, and people should do the things they are good at should they not? A man skilled at baking should be a baker, a man skilled at management should be a manager. Everyone is different and so too are the contributions to society.
But that is not class, class is the relationship of a person to social power.


Stateless: who takes care of defense?Armed citizenry and/or citizen militias.


Then where is the incentive to perform to your ability?

Well modern society uses the threat of horrible death......for most people anyways.
That might be a little harsh, but there's a lot more ways to incentive effort from humans than threats, a lot more effective ways at that.

[Kukulofori]

Then where is the incentive to perform to your ability?

Missed this part of your post.

The incentive is that if you do something you enjoy, you'll naturally want to do your best. If you're not doing something you enjoy (most leftists are proponents of rotating shifts for this kind of work), then the incentive is to get it done as quickly (efficiently) as possible.

And if what you're doing is neither enjoyable nor necessary, then why do it?

[Nwoye]

Egalitarian : everyone is purposed equal under political, economic and social rights, is this advocating no special treatment for the gifted or mentally incapacitated... clearly some mentally incapacitated people are unable to work or contribute towards the 'collective'. OR if they are mentally insane and commit a murder is this treated differently then everyone else?
Egalitarianism as a political philosophy just means the belief in a universal and equal application of rights. It means that every single person has the right to freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of movement, etc etc. Someone who isn't an egalitarian would believe that only white people have rights, or only rich people, or only party members (I'm looking at you stalinists). It also generally carries a belief in democracy, or the belief that since no man is fit to rule another (them being equal), everyone should exhibit the same exact influence on government or social organization. So as for your example, as long as the handicapped are given the same rights and access to government, the philosophy of egalitarianism is not violated.

Classless: everyone cannot carry out the same type of work. because of physical differences between men and women, for example, women are not able to do hard labor as well as men. people possess different dexterities inherently. first of all, classes are dependent on one's relation to production (worker, administrator/manager, executive), not someone's basic income. Communism's concept of classlessness then means the elimination of differences in relation to production. Second of all, Marx recognized differences (and therefore inequalities) among people, specifically in regard to intelligence or physical ability. For example:

But one man is superior to another physically, or mentally, and supplies more labor in the same time, or can labor for a longer time; and labor, to serve as a measure, must be defined by its duration or intensity, otherwise it ceases to be a standard of measurement. This equal right is an unequal right for unequal labor. It recognizes no class differences, because everyone is only a worker like everyone else; but it tacitly recognizes unequal individual endowment, and thus productive capacity, as a natural privilege. It is, therefore, a right of inequality, in its content, like every right. Right, by its very nature, can consist only in the application of an equal standard; but unequal individuals (and they would not be different individuals if they were not unequal) are measurable only by an equal standard insofar as they are brought under an equal point of view, are taken from one definite side only -- for instance, in the present case, are regarded only as workers and nothing more is seen in them, everything else being ignored. Further, one worker is married, another is not; one has more children than another, and so on and so forth. Thus, with an equal performance of labor, and hence an equal in the social consumption fund, one will in fact receive more than another, one will be richer than another, and so on. To avoid all these defects, right, instead of being equal, would have to be unequal.
you wouldn't believe how many times I've used this quote on people using the "people are different!" argument.


Stateless: who takes care of defense?we do. To be more specific, militias, an armed populace, citizen patrols, and block watches can take care of most issues that our police and military can, and can do it quite well.

[Roark]

Egalitarianism as a political philosophy just means the belief in a universal and equal application of rights. It means that every single person has the right to freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of movement, etc etc. Someone who isn't an egalitarian would believe that only white people have rights, or only rich people, or only party members (I'm looking at you stalinists). It also generally carries a belief in democracy, or the belief that since no man is fit to rule another (them being equal), everyone should exhibit the same exact influence on government or social organization. So as for your example, as long as the handicapped are given the same rights and access to government, the philosophy of egalitarianism is not violated.
first of all, classes are dependent on one's relation to production (worker, administrator/manager, executive), not someone's basic income. Communism's concept of classlessness then means the elimination of differences in relation to production. Second of all, Marx recognized differences (and therefore inequalities) among people, specifically in regard to intelligence or physical ability. For example:

you wouldn't believe how many times I've used this quote on people using the "people are different!" argument.

we do. To be more specific, militias, an armed populace, citizen patrols, and block watches can take care of most issues that our police and military can, and can do it quite well.

At the root of all forms of communism, compulsory or voluntary, lies a profound hatred of individual excellence, a denial of the natural or intellectual superiority of some men over others, and a desire to tear down every individual to the level of a communal ant-heap. In the name of a phony "humanism," an irrational and profoundly anti-human egalitarianism is to rob every individual of his specific and precious humanity.

Communism fails because human beings can't be psychologically browbeaten or physically coerced into behaving "unselfishly"

[Sarah Palin]

I.

Stateless: who takes care of defense?
.

Well considering there are no states, what is there to defend against? Presumably, all of the imperialists and captains of industry would be hung from the highest tree.

[danyboy27]

Well considering there are no states, what is there to defend against? Presumably, all of the imperialists and captains of industry would be hung from the highest tree.

well. rapist, psychopats murderer,, thieves.

[Sarah Palin]

well. rapist, psychopats murderer,, thieves.

Well, I'll have to get back to you on some of those, but thieves are a product of capitalism. If everyone is equal in this communist society, I can't see anyone stealing.

[danyboy27]

Well, I'll have to get back to you on some of those, but thieves are a product of capitalism. If everyone is equal in this communist society, I can't see anyone stealing.

unless you say that everyone will have the same tv set, same furniture and would be deprived of any luxury goods, i dont really see what will stop people who want to have a rare item by stealing it from someone else.

its impossible to say that everyone will have all the same luxury goods, some stuff take time to product, scarity is artificial for some stuff, for other it dosnt.

has long there will be rare goods, beautyful goods, people will steal.

[Roark]

Well, I'll have to get back to you on some of those, but thieves are a product of capitalism. If everyone is equal in this communist society, I can't see anyone stealing.
if thieves are a product of capitalism, then communism steals from all.

[Ele'ill]

unless you say that everyone will have the same tv set, same furniture and would be deprived of any luxury goods, i dont really see what will stop people who want to have a rare item by stealing it from someone else.

its impossible to say that everyone will have all the same luxury goods, some stuff take time to product, scarity is artificial for some stuff, for other it dosnt.

has long there will be rare goods, beautyful goods, people will steal.


Yes.

Theft is often spontaneous. "Oh look, a car stereo that I don't already have." *steal*

A lot of thieves can actually afford the item they're stealing.

[danyboy27]

Yes.

Theft is often spontaneous. "Oh look, a car stereo that I don't already have." *steal*

A lot of thieves can actually afford the item they're stealing.

lets not forget those who steal just for fun, for the adrenalin.

has i mentionned giving the minimum living standard for people will surely decrease theft but wont be able to completly stop it.

[Nwoye]

At the root of all forms of communism, compulsory or voluntary, lies a profound hatred of individual excellence, a denial of the natural or intellectual superiority of some men over others, and a desire to tear down every individual to the level of a communal ant-heap. In the name of a phony "humanism," an irrational and profoundly anti-human egalitarianism is to rob every individual of his specific and precious humanity.

Communism fails because human beings can't be psychologically browbeaten or physically coerced into behaving "unselfishly"
:sleep:

[danyboy27]

At the root of all forms of communism, compulsory or voluntary, lies a profound hatred of individual excellence, a denial of the natural or intellectual superiority of some men over others, and a desire to tear down every individual to the level of a communal ant-heap. In the name of a phony "humanism," an irrational and profoundly anti-human egalitarianism is to rob every individual of his specific and precious humanity.

Communism fails because human beings can't be psychologically browbeaten or physically coerced into behaving "unselfishly"

NO!!!!!!!! WHY! you came here by saying you where new to that stuff and out of the blue you come up with your own savvy definition of communism and why it dosnt work? here is what i think: you came here with the intention to tell us we where wrong.

http://www.fallen-legion.eu/news/data/upimages/DoubleFacePalm.jpg

[Sarah Palin]

Communism fails because human beings can't be psychologically browbeaten or physically coerced into behaving "unselfishly"

Your fallacy is showing, there's a straw-man blowing in the wind... You get where I'm going with this?

[StalinFanboy]

At the root of all forms of communism, compulsory or voluntary, lies a profound hatred of individual excellence, a denial of the natural or intellectual superiority of some men over others, and a desire to tear down every individual to the level of a communal ant-heap. In the name of a phony "humanism," an irrational and profoundly anti-human egalitarianism is to rob every individual of his specific and precious humanity.

Communism fails because human beings can't be psychologically browbeaten or physically coerced into behaving "unselfishly"
I am selfish. This is why I want a revolution. I want to know that I won't be hungry anymore, and that I won't be cold. And when my truck breaks down, the guy down the street will help me fix it. In return for this, I am willing to help others when I can.

[GPDP]

At the root of all forms of communism, compulsory or voluntary, lies a profound hatred of individual excellence, a denial of the natural or intellectual superiority of some men over others, and a desire to tear down every individual to the level of a communal ant-heap. In the name of a phony "humanism," an irrational and profoundly anti-human egalitarianism is to rob every individual of his specific and precious humanity.

Communism fails because human beings can't be psychologically browbeaten or physically coerced into behaving "unselfishly"

If you're going to post gigantic strawmen and insane ramblings with absolutely no backing, at least be honest enough to source your bullshit instead of resorting to plagiarism.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig5/chu8.html

[mikelepore]

Classless: everyone cannot carry out the same type of work. because of physical differences between men and women, for example, women are not able to do hard labor as well as men. people possess different dexterities inherently.

Natural inequalities have nothing to do with classes. Classes means: I'm lucky enough to be the legal owner of something that people need to sustain life, so in order to survive you come to me and ask me for permission to use it. I let you use my property on the condition that your work will make a profit for me. I pay you back just enough for you to survive, and most of what you produce I keep for myself. That is what a classless society will put an end to. The natural inequalities between individuals are unimportant.

[mikelepore]

At the root of all forms of communism, compulsory or voluntary, lies a profound hatred of individual excellence, a denial of the natural or intellectual superiority of some men over others, and a desire to tear down every individual to the level of a communal ant-heap. In the name of a phony "humanism," an irrational and profoundly anti-human egalitarianism is to rob every individual of his specific and precious humanity.

Communism fails because human beings can't be psychologically browbeaten or physically coerced into behaving "unselfishly"

You reached these conclusions just twelve hours after you said that you have a lot of questions because "I am new to these ideas" ?!?! My advice to you is to go back to asking questions. Maybe in six months you'll be qualified to formulate opinions about the subject that you are completely new to.

[GPDP]

You reached these conclusions just twelve hours after you said that you have a lot of questions because "I am new to these ideas" ?!?! My advice to you is to go back to asking questions. Maybe in six months you'll be qualified to formulate opinions about the subject that you are completely new to.

He didn't reach those conclusions, because they are not his conclusions to begin with. It's plagiarized copy pasta from Lew Rockwell's website. This is just another run-of-the-mill Misean troll.

[mikelepore]

Communism fails because human beings can't be psychologically browbeaten or physically coerced into behaving "unselfishly"

That reasoning is backwards. Communism would make the workers full partners in the ownership of the places where they work, so they won't have to share the proceeds with any absentee owners who own shares but don't work. Therefore, if it's true that human beings are "selfish", that would make communism all the more appropriate and all the more essential.