ayn rand

[Nickademus]

i've just started reading ayn rand's book capitalism. admittedly i should read more of her book before i start really discussing it but i'm already having issues with her writing. in this book she discusses political economy but essentially boils political economics to two basic systems: freedom and slavery. she equates freedom with capitalism and slavery with everything else. i think her problem lies in the fact that she believes that communists/socialist economies don't allow for freedom of the mind. she associates socialism, communism etc. with 1984: complete and utter control of every aspect of life. her belief is that because humans require thought for everything that we do, we think about our work and our lives and therefore the products of our work and our lives. when the gov't dictates how that product of our work/lives she thinks that the human no longer has the freedom to think about our work or our lives, we are complete automotons.

obviously ihave issues with this idea. i think this is based largely on the old feared idea of communism and not communism in its true essence. I also think it is too simplistic to suggest that we can have 'partial freedoms'. is it not possible to think freely and yet have other aspects of your life dictated to you. That already happens, that is what the law and government does with regards to many many aspects of life.

anyway those are my thoughts. yours?

[DaNatural]

wb nick, anyway as for ayn rand i hate her. She is an exitentialist so her big thing is freedom like you said. And she is a capitalist to the highest degree. She is annoying as hell, and im glad i havnt read her stuff cus it would probably infuriate me. My one teacher has told me about her, and i must say i was not impressed. HOwever the right wing seems to love her and praise her works, she is very powerful. peace

[flames of the flag]

i havent read any of her stuff but i get the impression she has a sort of 1950 mentality towards communism. she seems to have very wrong ideas and yet she is still published?

[Valkyrie]

Here is a piece of Rand's "wisdom" the philosophy of Objectivism; & Rational self-intersest: (enough to make you puke)

"the man who attempts to live for others is a dependent. He is a parasite in motive and makes parasites of those he serves. The relationship produces nothing but mutual corruption. It is impossible in concept. The nearest appraoch to it in reality - the man who lives to serve others - is the slave. If physical slavery is repulsive, how much more repulsive is the concept of servility of the spirit? The conquered slave has a vestige of honor. he has the merit of having resisted and of considering his condition evil. But the man who enslaves himself voluntarily in the name of love is the basest of creatures. He degrades the dignity of man and he degrades the conception of love. But this is the essence of altruism."

[Nickademus]

Quote: from flames of the flag on 6:30 pm on Jan. 3, 2002
i havent read any of her stuff but i get the impression she has a sort of 1950 mentality towards communism. she seems to have very wrong ideas and yet she is still published?


just fyi she wrote during the early have of the 20thcent . . .1930-40s approx

[Moskitto]

My dad believes in "Enlightened Self Interest."

He explained this to me and my brother, It basically means that helping other people can benefit yourself so from both viewpoints it is a good idea.

He also says that the whole world needs something like a Martial Plan today, So that the third world can become developed and they can trade with everyone else fairly which would benefit everyone.

[Moskitto]

This is how the writer of that history website expained how Rand was over rated.

Ayn Rand (1905-82)
Well, technically, I suppose I can only award her an honorable mention since I've never actually read any of her works, but life is too short to waste precious days reading books that are endlessly pushed on me by people who -- how shall I put this delicately? -- lack credibility.

The works of Ayn Rand easily rank as the philosophy most recommended by the least reliable people that I've ever encountered. They don't even attempt to make their philosophy sound appealing to new recruits. The core philosophy of all the Randites I've met seems to be "Some people are better than others -- for example, I'm better than you are -- and the better people deserve more," and "All social interaction is evil."

Hell, even Klansmen are willing to buy me a beer if I pass the color test.

[I Will Deny You]

I'm pretty sure I've read the book you're talking about (it's called Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal, right?) and in the introduction to the edition I have she wrote about how kids "today"--back then--didn't know what capitalism really was. She got the whole definition of slave wrong, by the way. I've been infuriated by some of the other bullshit she's written, and her ideas don't seem interconnected because a lot of them actually contradict each other. Her definition of freedom never seemed clear to me--I am a free human being (for the most part, anyway), and it is my choice to do charity work, which is serving others if I remember correctly. It's my damned choice! A slave is someone who is forced to work for no pay, and so it would be impossible a slave really lives to serve others. If a person lives their whole life picking cotton or manufacturing cars so that they won't be denied dinner, that's not living to serve others! Socialists, etc. don't even really serve others, they just try to help others. I don't want to sound like a raving lunatic so I'll stop now, but the fact of the matter is that Ayn Rand is full of it and doesn't adequately back up her arguments.

[Nickademus]

Quote: from I Will Deny You on 9:47 am on Jan. 5, 2002
I'm pretty sure I've read the book you're talking about (it's called Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal, right?) and in the introduction to the edition I have she wrote about how kids "today"--back then--didn't know what capitalism really was. She got the whole definition of slave wrong, by the way. I've been infuriated by some of the other bullshit she's written, and her ideas don't seem interconnected because a lot of them actually contradict each other. Her definition of freedom never seemed clear to me--I am a free human being (for the most part, anyway), and it is my choice to do charity work, which is serving others if I remember correctly. It's my damned choice! A slave is someone who is forced to work for no pay, and so it would be impossible a slave really lives to serve others. If a person lives their whole life picking cotton or manufacturing cars so that they won't be denied dinner, that's not living to serve others! Socialists, etc. don't even really serve others, they just try to help others. I don't want to sound like a raving lunatic so I'll stop now, but the fact of the matter is that Ayn Rand is full of it and doesn't adequately back up her arguments.
yeah i'm discovering that really quickly.

[Son of Scargill]

All I know of Ayn Rand before this topic came up is that Officer Barbrady said of "Atlas Shrugged"
"I read every last word of this garbage,and because of this piece of shit,I'm never reading again!"
Seems that she has that effect in real life too.

[Nickademus]

Quote: from Son of Scargill on 1:40 pm on Jan. 6, 2002
All I know of Ayn Rand before this topic came up is that Officer Barbrady said of "Atlas Shrugged"
"I read every last word of this garbage,and because of this piece of shit,I'm never reading again!"
Seems that she has that effect in real life too.

lol that seems appropriate but i am determined to get through this book. i have to know some of the philosophical arguments that are poorly being used for capitlaism.