Farming

[Kukulofori]

Is there any plan to reduce the amount of people who have to spend their time farming after the revolution? Farming pretty much sucks and it feels like if we have farmers then we have a group of people we're exploiting. And it's not like farms are close enough to cities to like switch off every other week or something either.

[StalinFanboy]

There are people who enjoy farming...

[Kukulofori]

There are some. It's nowhere near the amount of the ones who do it because they don't have a choice in the matter.

[gorillafuck]

If it causes a real problem we can develop technology to make farming much easier.

[FreeFocus]

Why not just make everything more efficient and focus on crops that are not as labor intensive? Moreover, further technological developments may allow us to have robots farm, or high-tech, computer-based systems that do things like monitor soil conditions, plant growth, water levels, etc.

On a side note, I'm a big fan of farming/nature personally, and would most likely opt for a non-tech style of farming for myself. But for the broader society, people need to be fed, and we can eliminate hunger with diets based primarily on plants and agriculture.

[revolution inaction]

I think we should use Vertical farming (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_farming) it would be much more efficient, we could have the farms inside citys, and we would probably be able to grow plants well outside there normal ranges so we wouldn't need to transport food so far.

[revolution inaction]

Why not just make everything more efficient and focus on crops that are not as labor intensive? Moreover, further technological developments may allow us to have robots farm, or high-tech, computer-based systems that do things like monitor soil conditions, plant growth, water levels, etc.

On a side note, I'm a big fan of farming/nature personally, and would most likely opt for a non-tech style of farming for myself. But for the broader society, people need to be fed, and we can eliminate hunger with diets based primarily on plants and agriculture.

I think that if we use more advanced farming techniques then we need less space for growing food so theres more space for actual nature.

[Durruti's Ghost]

We could also arrange matters so that people who work on farms are required to spend fewer hours working than other people to make up for the unpleasant nature of the job. Say a commune requires a person to earn an average of four labor-credits a day; farming could be worth two labor-credits an hour. The same could apply for other unpleasant jobs, while pleasant jobs at which many people wish to work might only reward people .75 credits per hour. If people were failing to get a certain job done, the commune could raise the number of credits-per-hour for that job; if too many people were to wish to work at a particular job, the commune could lower that number.

[FreeFocus]

I think we should use Vertical farming (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_farming) it would be much more efficient, we could have the farms inside citys, and we would probably be able to grow plants well outside there normal ranges so we wouldn't need to transport food so far.

This. Vertical farming is an amazing development.

[ComradeOm]

Capitalism has already done much of the work for us. Farming today in the West is nowhere near as labour intensive as it was a century ago. Or indeed even a few decades ago. Ever advancing technology, coupled with the concentration of farming in the hands of big business, has led to huge yield increases while slashing the numbers employed in the field. I don't think its too much of an exaggeration to claim that the small farmer that once typified the sector (in the West) is fast becoming obsolete

[ArrowLance]

In modern times farming is not very different from any other industry. I don't see how we need to change it.

[Dr Mindbender]

Is there any plan to reduce the amount of people who have to spend their time farming after the revolution? Farming pretty much sucks and it feels like if we have farmers then we have a group of people we're exploiting. And it's not like farms are close enough to cities to like switch off every other week or something either.

I agree completely.

Technocracy will remove the need for humans to engage in menial labour.

[LOLseph Stalin]

In a Communist society people will be more innovative thus will work to develop new technology that could possibly make most farming and other difficult jobs all mechanized and requiring little manpower.

[Kukulofori]

Holy shit at vertical farming.

That could actually work. o_o

[*Red*Alert]

I think we should use Vertical farming (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_farming) it would be much more efficient, we could have the farms inside citys, and we would probably be able to grow plants well outside there normal ranges so we wouldn't need to transport food so far.

Incredible! I had never even thought such beauty and innovation could be created...this should be the future of agriculture, given the difficulty farmers are currently having sustaining themselves against huge capitalist factory farms!

If powered by solar power, this may well be the future. All Leftists should be supporting such innovation and it should form a key part of policy given the fact that it could offer all the produce required by the urban Proletariat right in the centre of the city!

[bobroberts]

Literally feeding the world is such an ignoble profession. Actually, many people derive satisfaction from farming. It's what allowed modern civilization to flourish. The worst parts of farming is that it has reduced so many people responsible for putting food on our plates to the role of mindless cogs, which is a problem with every other modern industry.

[Axle]

Farms could be built in quite a few old American Rust Belt cities who's populations are shrinking. Detroit's been considering it because of the massive plots of empty land in the city proper.

Building vertical farms in and around cities would increase efficiency in metropolitan areas in a big way.

[StalinFanboy]

Man, vertical farming is the coolest shit ever.

[Pogue]

I think we all need to get a brand new combine harvester, I'll give you the key (ooo arr oo arr).

[Die Neue Zeit]

I think we should use Vertical farming (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_farming) it would be much more efficient, we could have the farms inside citys, and we would probably be able to grow plants well outside there normal ranges so we wouldn't need to transport food so far.

Most important of all, vertical farms are easiest to organize on a sovkhozy (publicly owned) basis, with neither the "private plot" supplements that plagued the kolkhozy model nor the isolationism of the kibbutz model.

However, one political drawback of vertical farming would be the food independence of the City from the countryside. The urban-based public could easily expropriate all the land and all the means of production in the countryside, and could care less if they countryfolks crash and burn like they did to provoke Stalin's collectivization famine.

[Jethro Tull]

vertical farming is a scam...

[Comrade Gwydion]

Incredible! I had never even thought such beauty and innovation could be created...this should be the future of agriculture, given the difficulty farmers are currently having sustaining themselves against huge capitalist factory farms!

If powered by solar power, this may well be the future. All Leftists should be supporting such innovation and it should form a key part of policy given the fact that it could offer all the produce required by the urban Proletariat right in the centre of the city!

You just hit the nail on the head: the energy costs for the thing are fucking unbelievable. So unless there first is a global switch towards durable energy sources like Solar Power, this could probably be rather more of a negative thing than a positive.
Ofcourse, if we can solve the energy-problem, I agree with everyone that this concept is absolutely great.

[NecroCommie]

I am baffled by this OP!!! Is it so hard to imagine people who might enjoy living in the countryside, or perhaps even wilderness? Hell, if the finnish food-industry were not so fucked by EU and monopolized by capitalism I would have started agrologist studies instead.

There will always be more than enough people who are willing to farm. As to the industrial farming, if the first world farming techniques were spread further to the world, and vertical farming were introduced, food would never be a problem anyway. Alas, that will never happen during capitalism, since food prices would go too low.

[Psy]

We already have overproduction of agricultural products, famines exist not due to of lack of production by due to poverty.

That said vertical farming goes against the engineering practice of K.I.S.S (Keep It Simple Stupid). You'd need to reinforce the floors to take the weight of not only soil but moist soil and what ever equipment you use to harvest the crops, then you need to get light to the plants blocked by the floor above them.

[RotStern]

that vertical farming seems like a great idea!
Wow that would be cool :D

[Die Neue Zeit]

We already have overproduction of agricultural products, famines exist not due to of lack of production by due to poverty.

That said vertical farming goes against the engineering practice of K.I.S.S (Keep It Simple Stupid). You'd need to reinforce the floors to take the weight of not only soil but moist soil and what ever equipment you use to harvest the crops, then you need to get light to the plants blocked by the floor above them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_farming

"Because the stacked growing surfaces of a vertical farm would receive far less sunlight than the equivalent land area in a rural farm, the vertical farm would require a significant level of artificial lighting and heating to operate in all seasons."

[HEAD ICE]

a lot of the reasons why "farming" sucks is because most of the people who do farm work are wage slaves. every single land reform effort (that was not smoke and mirrors) resulted in increased efficiency and outputs. the capitalist's only interest is squandering, and much of the arable land that is owned by the super rich goes untilled.

[Jethro Tull]

that vertical farming seems like a great idea!
Wow that would be cool :D

whether or not something is "cool" has no bearing on how and if it actually works.

not only is vertical farming totally practically infeasible, it's almost always advocated within the context of an obviously genocidal and hopelessly impractical grand vision of forced urbanization and "rewilding" (ie: depopulating) the land. it's rooted in the same bourgeois mentality that uproots indigenous people from their land to make tourist parks for the rich.

in order for communism to exist, farming needs to become a larger part of our lives, not a smaller. to suggest that industrial agriculture is more efficient is to glorify the capitalist mode of production. capitalist agricultural practices, dependent upon chemical pesticides and fertilizers, petroleum-powered equipment, and so forth, squanders potential efficiency in many important and obvious ways.

[dubaba]

I wouldnt mind being a farmer, I like growing things. But like others said vertical farming is a great idea especially because indoor and hydroponic systems can turn out almost perfect crops and it saves room.

[revolution inaction]

not only is vertical farming totally practically infeasible,

how is it infeasible?



it's almost always advocated within the context of an obviously genocidal and hopelessly impractical grand vision of forced urbanization and "rewilding" (ie: depopulating) the land. it's rooted in the same bourgeois mentality that uproots indigenous people from their land to make tourist parks for the rich.

who the fuck supports this?



in order for communism to exist, farming needs to become a larger part of our lives, not a smaller.

why?



to suggest that industrial agriculture is more efficient is to glorify the capitalist mode of production.

not to claim that the market is more effective at allocating resources than planing and that wage labour is the best way to get people to work would be to glorify the capitalist mode of production.
The efficiency or otherwise of industrialised agriculture is just a matter of what use of resources gets the best output. and this is something that will still matter in communism, but the longterm destruction of the environment wont be an acceptable side effect of short term gains.



capitalist agricultural practices, dependent upon chemical pesticides and fertilizers, petroleum-powered equipment, and so forth, squanders potential efficiency in many important and obvious ways.
yes we know, no one is advocating capitalist agricultural practices.

[Vanguard1917]

in order for communism to exist, farming needs to become a larger part of our lives, not a smaller. to suggest that industrial agriculture is more efficient is to glorify the capitalist mode of production.

Actually, you're the one who is glorifying the capitalist mode of production, where a large bulk of humanity is already forced to undertake back-breaking agricultural labour in order to try to feed themselves and their families.

The aim of a communist society will be to increase the productivity of labour (through the application of science and technology) so that we can free humanity as much as possible from the kind of arduous work that you seem to be romanticising.

[Jethro Tull]

how is it infeasible?

-for one thing it uses more energy to farm hydroponically. (you need to generate the running water)
-it also uses more energy to farm indoors. (you need to create artificial sunlight, which is less healthy for plants than natural sunlight)
-there's also no practical way to "vertically farm" grains such as wheat, corn, etc., or, for that matter, livestock. (disgustingly enough, most vertical farming nuts also advocate in vitro meat)
-someone already mentioned the weight of all those stories upon stories of soil. there's also the issue of transporting the humans inside the buildings. (elevators, etc. which require more energy)
-from an architectural standpoint, high-rise/skyscrapers are not the safest or most efficient structure. pyramids have a more stable base, if we must build up. all buildings of excessive height fuck with weather, with the migration cycles of winged animals, obstruct human observation of the celestial world, etc. any structure used for gardening is subject to soil and water erosion...



who the fuck supports this?

the utopian design collective, prominent advocates of vertical farming within the anarchist milieu, have grandiose delusions of "rewilding" 80% of the earth's surface persuading the majority of the human race to immigrate to metropolitan areas.


why?

people need to learn to produce their own food, interact more with the ecosystem they are a part of, etc. abolishing capitalism means abolishing a system in which the majority of the population has no direct involvement in food production.


not to claim that the market is more effective at allocating resources than planing and that wage labour is the best way to get people to work would be to glorify the capitalist mode of production.

in my opinion, that's sort of a misreading of the classical communist thinkers. capitalism is not merely an economic arrangement but a social order.


The efficiency or otherwise of industrialised agriculture is just a matter of what use of resources gets the best output.

capitalists are focused on what produces the most output in the short term, and what produces the most output within the context of a bureaucracy that extorts resources from the human race. this is different than how a communist society will look at the problem. something can expand output in the short-term but destroy it in the long-term.


but the longterm destruction of the environment wont be an acceptable side effect of short term gains.

you said it!


yes we know, no one is advocating capitalist agricultural practices.

for me it is obvious that many individuals on this thread are doing so.


Actually, you're the one who is glorifying the capitalist mode of production, where a large bulk of humanity is already forced to undertake back-breaking agricultural labour in order to try to feed themselves and their families.

the difference is that agricultural work that will exist under communism will be:
a) of a strikingly different quality.
b) for the benefit of those who participate in it. (they will control the fruit of their labor)
c) of significantly less quantity since people will be producing what they want and need, not what the economy needs.

[Ovi]

Is there any plan to reduce the amount of people who have to spend their time farming after the revolution? Farming pretty much sucks and it feels like if we have farmers then we have a group of people we're exploiting. And it's not like farms are close enough to cities to like switch off every other week or something either.
Reduce the amount of people? 2-3% of workers are employed in agriculture in a modern country. Reduce to what? What we need to reduce are the differences between cities and countryside until they no longer exist.

I think we should use Vertical farming it would be much more efficient, we could have the farms inside citys, and we would probably be able to grow plants well outside there normal ranges so we wouldn't need to transport food so far.
Vertical farms are stupid, useless and solve nothing. It only shows how pathetic capitalists are. Some advocate using crops as biofuel while others advocate using fuels to grow crops in vertical farms.


You just hit the nail on the head: the energy costs for the thing are fucking unbelievable. So unless there first is a global switch towards durable energy sources like Solar Power, this could probably be rather more of a negative thing than a positive.

Use solar panels to create electrity which will in turn be used to power light bulbs in farms? Wastefull and incredibly inefficient. I'm surprised this is even worth discussing.

I know my personal opinion doesn't mean much in this regard but if I were to choose where I want to live, the last place would be a sky scraper in a metropolis.



The efficiency or otherwise of industrialised agriculture is just a matter of what use of resources gets the best output. and this is something that will still matter in communism, but the longterm destruction of the environment wont be an acceptable side effect of short term gains.
.

In that case we need a completely different way of doing agriculture. We can't just use the present day agriculture and remove the 'bad parts'. It's built entirely on the idea that profit is everything and our health and the environment don't mean shit.

Unlike many, I don't believe ever increasing land productivity is the way towards protecting the environment by using up somewhat smaller land surfaces . On the contrary, the more intensive agriculture is, the more it degrades the soil and the less sustainable it is. While on the short term it might seem that we're doing the right thing (assuming we're blind enough not to see the eutrophicated waters, pesticide pollution and health effects, erosion...), on the long term it will be increasingly difficult to grow anything on that land and with the phosphate minerals eventually running out will end up clearing more forests to prevent mass famine.