RAAD issues death threat to local drug baron

[khad]

http://www.derryjournal.com/journal/RAAD-issue-new-death-threat.5476622.jp


Published Date: 21 July 2009
By Staff reporter


A Republican group last night sent a chilling warning to an alleged well-known drug dealer that he will be "executed on sight" - after they failed in an attempt to kill him last week.

In a statement to the ‘Derry Journal,’ Republican Action Against Drugs (RAAD) alleged they occupied the man’s house in Hazelbank and attempted to lure him there. However due to a “domestic situation” the man, who cannot be named, failed to return home.

The group said they searched the individual’s house and claim they found evidence that he was supplying numerous drug dealers with three kilos of cocaine per week.

They said they did not harm the owner of the house because she has a young child and is a substance abuser.

RAAD’s threats come just three weeks after they shot a 26 year-old man in the Rosemount area of the city

The father-of-one was shot in both legs and one foot when he opened the front door of his Florence Street home and was confronted by a masked gunman who fired three shots at him.

In statement issued to the ‘Journal’ yesterday RAAD said : “(The man) is a convicted armed robber and drug dealer who was supplying various dealers with at least three kilos of cocaine weekly.

“After a lengthy operation carried out by our intelligence unit, which included electronic surveillance, two units were tasked with occupying the target’s safe house. The house was secured and searched by our volunteers who found items which confirmed our case against him.

“They then attempted to lure the target to the house but he failed [to arrive] due to a domestic situation.

“The owner of the house readily admitted being involved in criminality but was unharmed because she has a child and is a victim of substance abuse herself. All of our units have been ordered to execute this man on sight for his anti community activities.”A spokeswoman for the PSNI in Derry said: “We do not comment on named individuals.”

[which doctor]

What do they really expect to accomplish with this. You kill one drug dealer, another one pops up to take his place. We've seen it time and time again.

If anything, their rhetoric and action sound remarkably similar to that of the police. They're targeting this single individual for his supposed "anti community activities," which is the same excuse the police use when targeting the vice industries. What about all the other anti-community individuals involved in more legitimate businesses. do they get to live another day?

Furthermore, their focus on killing individuals masks the real reasons for societal problems. Problems in society cannot be blamed on a few mere individuals, for there are much larger socio-economic forces are at work.

[Revy]

Sounds like a bunch of D.A.R.E. wannabe-radicals who think drugs are the reason for all their problems, so they go around and brutally murder "criminal" elements. Last time I checked selling some crack and stealing a few things shouldn't make you worthy of death.

fuck "RAAD".

[Saorsa]

Hang on I thought republicans were drug dealers? :ohmy:

[khad]

What do they really expect to accomplish with this. You kill one drug dealer, another one pops up to take his place. We've seen it time and time again.

If anything, their rhetoric and action sound remarkably similar to that of the police. They're targeting this single individual for his supposed "anti community activities," which is the same excuse the police use when targeting the vice industries. What about all the other anti-community individuals involved in more legitimate businesses. do they get to live another day?

Furthermore, their focus on killing individuals masks the real reasons for societal problems. Problems in society cannot be blamed on a few mere individuals, for there are much larger socio-economic forces are at work.
In case you didn't read the article, this guy is supposedly a big time supplier. 3kg of cocaine a week is a major operation. While I don't think that gunning down the small fish will amount to anything, going after the drug barons does matter. This guy supplies a lot of the small-time dealers.


Last time I checked selling some crack and stealing a few things shouldn't make you worthy of death.

If you want to be crudely marxist, a guy who supplies 3kg of coke per week is pretty well off. Save your sympathy for the petty hoods.

[PRC-UTE]

Fair play to them terrorising the lumpenbourgeois scum who've been terrorising working class estates for long enough. :cool:

These actions tend to be tremendously popular with working class people, which is actually why republicans got involved in this work initially. It was a way to deliver an alternative state service to communities that are usually left unprotected, and are at the mercy of criminals. Not long ago the IRSP mobilised hundreds in the Short Strand to take a stand against the dealers.

[PRC-UTE]

Sounds like a bunch of D.A.R.E. wannabe-radicals who think drugs are the reason for all their problems, so they go around and brutally murder "criminal" elements. Last time I checked selling some crack and stealing a few things shouldn't make you worthy of death.

fuck "RAAD".

Most criminals prey on workers. Thus workers hate them. It's not rocket science lol

Major dealers are brutal exploiters, and are often use by state forces around the world to control otherwise rebellious populations, and to recruit informers.

The Paris Commune dealt rather ruthlessly with criminals that refused to be reformed, as any revolutionaries would.

[9]

Why don't they target a CEO, show that they mean business?

[PRC-UTE]

Why don't they target a CEO, show that they mean business?

Republicans have targetted businessmen in the past, actually.

[Saorsa]

Why don't they target a CEO, show that they mean business?

In drug dealing terms, this guy would be a CEO.

I have a question though, and I'm mostly interested in getting an answer from Republican comrades like PRC on this one... Do republican anti-drug actions differentiate between different drugs? For example, would cannabis dealers be targeted? Is it drugs in general, or just people like this scumbag whose drugs and activities in general are having an obvious negative effect on the community?

It's a tricky issue and I expect almost every user on this forum has experimented with drugs at some point in their life (myself included). But looking at this concretely, big time cocaine dealing criminals are poisoning workers and working class communities that already face a whole shitload of problems. It's not like the police are going to help, so armed organisations of the oppressed have to take action themselves.

[Pogue]

This is fine, let the scum take care of the scum.

[Saorsa]

^ You = lol

[ls]

Instead, they could be focusing on community action to work to prevent them from coming up, which is infinitely harder and infinitely more useful.

[Saorsa]

Instead, they could be focusing on community action to work to prevent them from coming up, which is infinitely harder and infinitely more useful.

Which republicans do. As PRC-UTE mentioned, "the IRSP mobilised hundreds in the Short Strand to take a stand against the dealers". Violent and non-violent, legal and illegal tactics complement each other.

[ls]

I'm not criticising the march at all, but that's clearly not enough. The masked gunmen thing is not doing any good at all, it's just going to make another one pop up (as which doctor has said).

[redflag32]

This is fine, let the scum take care of the scum.

Loyalist sympathising reactionary degenerate

[redflag32]

Whilst i think that Irish republicans do sometimes put too much importance into this sort of activity we cant ignore the fact that it did work in the past. Its only since the PIRA gave up its guns and its role as the police force of catholic areas that anti-social behaviour and drug dealing has rocketed out of control.

I do believe that the republican Socialist INLA take the position that it is not up to them to police the community and that it is down to the people to organise against anti-socialism. But in fairness to the more traditional RAAD they are gaining massive support within the catholic community by tackling these thugs the only way they understand. And as ive said already, this tactic has worked in the past. It didnt cure the problem but it certainly curtailed it.

[redflag32]

Maybe the ultra-lefties objection to this type of activity is a mirror for their pure socialist philosophy, were they wont get involved in anything that isnt pure socialism. These people are hanging around waiting for the pure class struggle so that then they can jump on the bandwagon. The problem here is that without some sort of revolutionary activity that isnt "pure socialism" there cant BE any pure socialism in the future.

[More Fire for the People]

Ah, what bastions of traditional morality and persecutors delinquency. Who needs the police, when you go these guys.

[redflag32]

Ah, what bastions of traditional morality and persecutors delinquency. Who needs the police, when you go these guys.

The whole point is that there isnt a legitimate police force in the 6 counties. What they have is an imperialist sectarian gang of thugs who in the past actively supported Loyalist mobs and paramilitaries in attacking catholic communities. Thats why republicans get involved in "policing" their own communities. What, do you think there wont be a need for the rule of law under socialism? There wont be a need for the "police"?

[Holden Caulfield]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLvogoiZvAg

listen please

[More Fire for the People]

Personally, I don't want self-righteous communist posing as boys in blue and taking a reactionary position on drug use.

[redflag32]

Personally, I don't want self-righteous communist posing as boys in blue and taking a reactionary position on drug use.

Why dont you leave the declarations of grandeur aside and deal with the points i raised. That the reason republicans have to get involved in policing their community is because of the partitioning of Ireland and that in the end, all society even socialist society will need law and order.

[PRC-UTE]

I have a question though, and I'm mostly interested in getting an answer from Republican comrades like PRC on this one... Do republican anti-drug actions differentiate between different drugs? For example, would cannabis dealers be targeted? Is it drugs in general, or just people like this scumbag whose drugs and activities in general are having an obvious negative effect on the community?

It depends. Some republicans would only care about the harder drugs. Others wouldn't distinguish at all, which I think is a huge mistake. I don't see how weed is really a drug at all, like the effects are more mild than alcohol really. When I tried it I felt nothing.



It's a tricky issue and I expect almost every user on this forum has experimented with drugs at some point in their life (myself included). But looking at this concretely, big time cocaine dealing criminals are poisoning workers and working class communities that already face a whole shitload of problems. It's not like the police are going to help, so armed organisations of the oppressed have to take action themselves.

Agreed.

The wealthy dealers selling the more addictive and deadly drugs are a problem- that wealth and influence doesn't come without addiction, violence, intimidation and the break down of communities. It's a different story from some kid selling a few joints to his friends, which is like harmless enough in my book

[PRC-UTE]

Ah, what bastions of traditional morality and persecutors delinquency. Who needs the police, when you go these guys.

the thing is though, comrade, they're not a police at all. they just do that on occasion to pick up support from the communities they operate in. They wouldn't even do it at all if their supporters weren't basically demanding they do something about rampant anti social crime.

[More Fire for the People]

ASBO is just a New Labor-Tory slur for working class and lumpenproletarian.

[khad]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLvogoiZvAg

listen please
You should come up with a better argument than that to evoke my sympathy for a drug baron. I don't know if he made "a million pounds," but 3kg of cocaine per week goes a long way. I can understand sympathy for drug mules and certain petty hoods who barely make ends meet, but this river of tears for the bourgeoisie of the criminal element is pathetic and silly.

[black magick hustla]

The PAN, the mexican right wing, would be proud of these guys. Now, if more people like those emerged here...

[khad]

The PAN, the mexican right wing, would be proud of these guys. Now, if more people like those emerged here...
I have a friend who is African American. When he was growing up, there were vigilante patrols in his neighborhood against drug dealers. He would scoff at the idea that he was being oppressed by them. And he happens to be an anarchist.

[black magick hustla]

I have a friend who is African American. When he was growing up, there were vigilante patrols in his neighborhood against drug dealers. He would scoff at the idea that he was being oppressed by them. And he happens to be an anarchist.

Narco trafficking is much more complex than just criminal elements poisoning communities. It constitutes a bulk of the world economy and it is spearheaded by big factions of the boss class. The violence we see in working class communities have a lot to do with the clashes of "legalist capitalists" against narco capitalists, than just criminal elements bringing the violence. So its not only criminal elements that bring barbarism, but also cop like elements.

A more thorough article on drug trafficking from a communist perspective:

http://en.internationalism.org/inter/151/drug-violence

[khad]

Narco trafficking is much more complex than just criminal elements poisoning communities. It constitutes a bulk of the world economy and it is spearheaded by big factions of the boss class.
In case you didn't notice, the guy being targeted with this particular death threat is in charge of supplying 3kg of cocaine per week to various smaller dealers. He is a member of the boss class.

[black magick hustla]

Of course he is. That is not the point though. The point is that violence against this type of people by cop like elements is a big part oif what fuels drug related violence today. I am not saying he is not scum.

[khad]

Of course he is. That is not the point though. The point is that violence against this type of people by cop like elements is a big part oif what fuels drug related violence today. I am not saying he is not scum.
And drug addiction and breakdown in community cohesion will just disappear if communities just stand down and let the drug lords stomp all over them with the crooked colonial police.... I understand what you are trying to say, but it's somewhat utopian given the desperate conditions on the ground.

[black magick hustla]

And drug addiction and breakdown in community cohesion will just disappear if communities just stand down and let the drug lords stomp all over them with the crooked colonial police.... I understand what you are trying to say, but it's somewhat utopian given the desperate conditions on the ground.

If the working class stood against the bosses we would not have this discussion today. It is more utopian to think that a gang of armed voluntarists displacing a mob boss will do shit.

[khad]

If the working class stood against the bosses we would not have this discussion today. It is more utopian to think that a gang of armed voluntarists displacing a mob boss will do shit.
*Sigh*


Not long ago the IRSP mobilised hundreds in the Short Strand to take a stand against the dealers.
You expect others to read your opinions, but you didn't take the time to sort out some basic facts that have been mentioned in this thread. There are BOTH mass community mobilizations against the dealers and vigilante actions. Both are fine by me.

[redflag32]

If the working class stood against the bosses we would not have this discussion today. It is more utopian to think that a gang of armed voluntarists displacing a mob boss will do shit.

Nobody thinks its going to solve the problem or bring socialism. Whats wrong with forcing these scumbags out of the community while also explaining to the community that it cant possibly solve the problem completely? Just because you advocate a Marxist solution to the problem which means the destruction of capitalism it doesnt mean you cant concentrate on immediate goals like building support in the community and cleaning up the streets.

I would like to know if you think it is just as wrong for the community to rise up (without the help of viggies) and kick the dealers out themselves as it is for the viggies to do it? If your argument is based on the fact that capitalist society will always contain social ills like drug dealing then you should not even advise the workers of that community to organise against the dealers themselves. So what do you advise? Let the capitalist police deal with it? And lets remember the concrete conditions in the 6 counties, that there is no legitimate police force at all.

[Pogue]

Basically, republican hard cases get pissed off because no one can be fucked with republicanism in the north anymore, picks a target no one will really care about and trys to do them in. This isn't community policing its desperate macho posturing, an attempt to try and find something to do with your up for it IRA mates. As if republicans really give a fuck anymore, spent force and good riddance. I hear all thats left now is a few vicious washouts. I hear the IRSP is a joke too, no doubt something that fuels the bitterness on here and the illusions of grandeur - 'But anarchists have no base in working class communities!' Yeh, well neither do the IRSP. Republicanism's a dead ideology and the fact all the followers of it can find time to do now is kill drug dealers is evidence of it.

[redflag32]

Basically, republican hard cases get pissed off because no one can be fucked with republicanism in the north anymore, picks a target no one will really care about and trys to do them in. This isn't community policing its desperate macho posturing, an attempt to try and find something to do with your up for it IRA mates. As if republicans really give a fuck anymore, spent force and good riddance. I hear all thats left now is a few vicious washouts. I hear the IRSP is a joke too, no doubt something that fuels the bitterness on here and the illusions of grandeur - 'But anarchists have no base in working class communities!' Yeh, well neither do the IRSP. Republicanism's a dead ideology and the fact all the followers of it can find time to do now is kill drug dealers is evidence of it.

I love when Anarchists come to the end of their debating ability nd start to get angry:laugh:

Whats next, a riot?

Go smash a window, you loyalist sympathiser.

[Pogue]

I love when Anarchists come to the end of their debating ability nd start to get angry:laugh:

Whats next, a riot?

Go smash a window, you loyalist sympathiser.

Stunning argument.

[redflag32]

Stunning argument.

No its a shite argument, but its a great insult!!:cool:

[Pogue]

Please, teach me to be more like you. You got everything right.

[redflag32]

Please, teach me to be more like you. You got everything right.

Well how about we forget your angry little strop and get back to proper discussion and debate? I believe i raised a few genuine points in the reply which came before your little strop. Why cant you deal with them honestly? If you act the maggot ill just respond with double,and we wont get anywhere. So try not to just slur republicans every chance you get and actually put up logical arguments against what they are doing. That way we can swap opinions like adults and not have to resort to ranting on like a maniac.

[Pogue]

Well how about we forget your angry little strop and get back to proper discussion and debate? I believe i raised a few genuine points in the reply which came before your little strop. Why cant you deal with them honestly? If you act the maggot ill just respond with double,and we wont get anywhere. So try not to just slur republicans every chance you get and actually put up logical arguments against what they are doing. That way we can swap opinions like adults and not have to resort to ranting on like a maniac.

OK mate, what do you want me to respond too?

[redflag32]

So this is my reply which came before your strop. I dont see how it warranted a hissy fit from you, but there ye go,what are we to expect. So woul dyou like to read it again and come back with a logical honest reply to what i said.

Thanks.


Nobody thinks its going to solve the problem or bring socialism. Whats wrong with forcing these scumbags out of the community while also explaining to the community that it cant possibly solve the problem completely? Just because you advocate a Marxist solution to the problem which means the destruction of capitalism it doesnt mean you cant concentrate on immediate goals like building support in the community and cleaning up the streets.

I would like to know if you think it is just as wrong for the community to rise up (without the help of viggies) and kick the dealers out themselves as it is for the viggies to do it? If your argument is based on the fact that capitalist society will always contain social ills like drug dealing then you should not even advise the workers of that community to organise against the dealers themselves. So what do you advise? Let the capitalist police deal with it? And lets remember the concrete conditions in the 6 counties, that there is no legitimate police force at all.

[Pogue]

So this is my reply which came before your strop. I dont see how it warranted a hissy fit from you, but there ye go,what are we to expect. So woul dyou like to read it again and come back with a logical honest reply to what i said.

Thanks.

I'd say the community should deal with it when it is in a sufficient enough position of strength to do so. Republican gangsters cannot move into an community and claim to be cleaning things up by killing drug dealers on behalf of the class. Its hypocritical and pointless - it comes from murdering nationalists who are as bad as the dealers if you look at their history, the history of the movement they are part of.

Basically I don't think one violent thuggish element of society can deal with another through violence like this.

[redflag32]

I'd say the community should deal with it when it is in a sufficient enough position of strength to do so. Republican gangsters cannot move into an community and claim to be cleaning things up by killing drug dealers on behalf of the class. Its hypocritical and pointless - it comes from murdering nationalists who are as bad as the dealers if you look at their history, the history of the movement they are part of.

Basically I don't think one violent thuggish element of society can deal with another through violence like this.

In the 26 counties there was a massive mobility of the working class against drug dealers. Im sure your aware of it. But even then republicans were deeply involved and carried out alot of the actions against dealers. Was this wrong aswell?

The thing you seem to ignore is that republicans, north and south, are deeply connected to the working class. They are the working class. Thes actions of which the thread is about are supported by the community. Republicans are getting locals involved aswell. There have been many marches on dealers houses which were lead by republicans and community activists.

This notion that republicans are divorced from the working class is nonsense.

[Pogue]

In the 26 counties there was a massive mobility of the working class against drug dealers. Im sure your aware of it. But even then republicans were deeply involved and carried out alot of the actions against dealers. Was this wrong aswell?

The thing you seem to ignore is that republicans, north and south, are deeply connected to the working class. They are the working class. Thes actions of which the thread is about are supported by the community. Republicans are getting locals involved aswell. There have been many marches on dealers houses which were lead by republicans and community activists.

This notion that republicans are divorced from the working class is nonsense.

If they are so well connected why is republicanism so insignificant now? Why is the IRSP got such a small amount of members?

[redflag32]

If they are so well connected why is republicanism so insignificant now? Why is the IRSP got such a small amount of members?

Republicanism is deeply ingrained in the working class communities. From the culture to its ideology. Just beacuse anti-GFA republicans dont go to the polls doesnt mean they are insignificant.

[redflag32]

You never commented on my example of what happened in the 26 counties regarding the co-operation between republicans and the community against drug dealers.

[Pogue]

Republicanism is deeply ingrained in the working class communities. From the culture to its ideology. Just beacuse anti-GFA republicans dont go to the polls doesnt mean they are insignificant.

But can you actually prove this? What evidence supports this oft repeated claim?

[redflag32]

But can you actually prove this? What evidence supports this oft repeated claim?

I live here, and i dont lie.

Plus, half of PSF's mandate is swapping sides as we speak,and PSF had a massive mandate in the working class areas. Every day there is reports of the PSNI being fucked out of a community when they went to rade a republicans house. There is also the support the drugs marches are getting and also the housing campaign in north belfast which is headed by IRSP activists.

[Pogue]

I live here, and i dont lie.

Plus, half of PSF's mandate is swapping sides as we speak,and PSF had a massive mandate in the working class areas. Every day there is reports of the PSNI being fucked out of a community when they went to rade a republicans house. There is also the support the drugs marches are getting and also the housing campaign in north belfast which is headed by IRSP activists.

Could you link me to this? This all seems subjective.

[redflag32]

Could you link me to this? This all seems subjective.

Can you link me to were you have proof that republicans are insignificant?

[redflag32]

You never commented on my example of what happened in the 26 counties regarding the co-operation between republicans and the community against drug dealers.


?

[ls]

I would like to know if you think it is just as wrong for the community to rise up (without the help of viggies) and kick the dealers out themselves as it is for the viggies to do it?

Of course there's nothing wrong with that at all, it's just hilarious that another nationalist little movement, the PKK, not unlike the republicans at all were the gangsters being targeted by the community:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2425825.stm
Baybasin's home was in the Kurdish town of Lice in south-east Turkey, a hotbed of PKK activity.

He was also accused of donating money to the PKK and the television channel Med-TV, which was sympathetic to the PKK.

Med-TV was based in London until its licence was revoked by the Independent Television Commission in November 1998.

'Rebels turned gangsters'

Both the PKK and Dev Sol - rather like paramilitary groups in Northern Ireland - have been accused in the past of turning from "freedom fighters" into gangsters.

Course they never were "freedom fighters" really.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/organised-crime-the-godfather-of-green-lanes-476208.html


Angry members of the Green Lanes community got together and decided to fight back. In November 2002 a battle broke out between 40 men armed with guns, knives and baseball bats outside a café, the Dostlar Social Club, in Green Lanes, owned by a relative of Baybasin. Twenty men were injured and an innocent man, Alisan Dogan, a 43-year-old Kurdish cleaner, was knifed to death.

[redflag32]

Of course there's nothing wrong with that at all, it's just hilarious that another nationalist little movement, the PKK, not unlike the republicans at all were the gangsters being targeted by the community:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2425825.stm

Course they never were "freedom fighters" really.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/organised-crime-the-godfather-of-green-lanes-476208.html

That question wasnt directed at you, and whats all that nonsense you posted? How is it relevent?

[ls]

I would expect you to just fly by and not read it.

Well fine by me, you just demonstrate your ignorance to all things further.

Let's see if anyone else can combat my argument with something semi-effective.

[redflag32]

I would expect you to just fly by and not read it.

Well fine by me, you just demonstrate your ignorance to all things further.

Let's see if anyone else can combat my argument with something semi-effective.

Cant you just say what you mean instead of posting links and quotes? Why rely on others to make your point for you?

[ls]

I rarely use sources to make my arguments for me actually, it sometimes gets me attacked.

If you insist, my point is that communities should rise up to defeat gangsterism on all sides, if the community however rose up and tried to denounce Republicanism, I wouldn't be surprised if the community "got taught a lesson".

That's all to be said really.

[redflag32]

I rarely use sources to make my arguments for me actually, it sometimes gets me attacked.

If you insist, my point is that communities should rise up to defeat gangsterism on all sides, if the community however rose up and tried to denounce Republicanism, I wouldn't be surprised if the community "got taught a lesson".

That's all to be said really.

So in a nutshell your slandering all republicans as gangsters.

Just say what you mean. Oh and try back it up with evidence. Your opinion means diddly squat.

[ls]

So in a nutshell your slandering all republicans as gangsters.

Just say what you mean. Oh and try back it up with evidence. Your opinion means diddly squat.

Your latest posts in the Belfast thread apologising for Republican murders of Protestants is evidence enough really.

[redflag32]

Your latest posts in the Belfast thread apologising for Republican murders of Protestants is evidence enough really.

So no evidence then?

More slander from your good self. Dont worry you cant blacken my name on here. My posts stand up to scrutiny. Anybody with half a brain can see i was not apologising for any murder.

Its funnny that those who use the fact that the IRA attacked protestants a handfull of times as the reason why republicanism is a sectarian ideology shy away from dealing with the actual concrete evidence when its presented to them.

Instead they try to attack the very person who is being open about these attacks. Surely if you think the IRA's attacks on protestants is reasonable proof for their sectarian nature then you would want to deal with those very attacks and you would not want to get side tracked by attacking the person trying to deal with the evidence openly.

But you realise that the IRA only carried out these actions in RESPONSE to the pogroms which were being waged against their community by the Loyalists and that the amount of times the IRA tried to stem the sectarian attacks on its comunity by responding with an attack on the protestant community was only a hand full of times. You dont want anybody to realise the truth about these attacks so you dont speak about them,instead you just try to slander me by saying im an apologist for sectarin murder. Your trying to tie me up in an argument which will see us move away from the central issue. Can we genuinely say republicanism is the same as loyalism?

[khad]

Your latest posts in the Belfast thread apologising for Republican murders of Protestants is evidence enough really.
Self-defense: verboten!

Next time you get attacked by BNP thugs, don't go crying about it. Wait--that ain't never happening, and we all know why.

[PRC-UTE]

Basically, republican hard cases get pissed off because no one can be fucked with republicanism in the north anymore, picks a target no one will really care about and trys to do them in. This isn't community policing its desperate macho posturing, an attempt to try and find something to do with your up for it IRA mates. As if republicans really give a fuck anymore, spent force and good riddance. I hear all thats left now is a few vicious washouts. I hear the IRSP is a joke too, no doubt something that fuels the bitterness on here and the illusions of grandeur - 'But anarchists have no base in working class communities!' Yeh, well neither do the IRSP. Republicanism's a dead ideology and the fact all the followers of it can find time to do now is kill drug dealers is evidence of it.

The IRSP had a 100 strong demo just the other day.

And our Youth Movement is expanding pretty quickly, membership in all four provinces now :cool:

[khad]

The IRSP had a 100 strong demo just the other day.

And our Youth Movement is expanding pretty quickly, membership in all four provinces now :cool:
Funny that an anarchist-type of all people is lecturing Irish republicans on micro-sectarianism.

[PRC-UTE]

Could you link me to this? This all seems subjective.

Here's a decent blog on the subject, mentions the IRSP as the driving force behind the housing campaign: http://splinteredsunrise.wordpress.com/2008/10/07/forty-years-on-housing-remains-a-running-sore/

There was another one of these marches just recently, a few weeks ago. The IRSP is able to draw in a lot of local people, the types who wouldn't otherwise be politically active. You should see how these events are swamped by police- almost more police than demonstrators

Aside from that recently the Party has been active in demos for prisoners, against the district policing partnership meetings, union work and solidarity with striking workers, solidarity work with Palestine, demonstrating against the Orange Order, community activism in opposing anti social crime, the IRSP's help lead the way in challenging SF's version of what really happened during the hunger strikes, and the Party issued a new pamphlet regarding the capitalist crisis.

That's all just in the last month or so, listed off the top of my head. There's probably more I don't knwo about.

And I know that a lot more campaigns and activities are being planned and in the works at the moment.

[PRC-UTE]

Funny that an anarchist-type of all people is lecturing Irish republicans on micro-sectarianism.

stop me if you've heard this one...

Jesus and Trotsky are up in heaven walking along, and talking. They come to a pond. Without thinking about it, Jesus begins to walk across it. When he's about halfway across, Trotsky calls out "Come back! You're doing it all wrong, here I'll show you!!"

Sometimes it truly seems the far left cares more about doing things their way than accomplishing anything at all :confused:

[chimx]

Hang on I thought republicans were drug dealers? :ohmy:

I can't tell if you are being satirical or not.

[9]

Is it really necessary for every thread between anarchists/left-communists and republicans to descend into shit-flinging and sectarian cheap shots? Its getting old really fast.

[Saorsa]

I can't tell if you are being satirical or not.

All the Republicans on this forum can though.

[Coggeh]

I don't think its the best method of tackling the drug problem in Ireland but im going to let that little voice in my head out to say .... fuck it . Fair enough .

[TC]

Raad are fascists. Fuck them.

[Coggeh]

Raad are fascists. Fuck them.
Their an authoritarian , corporatist, nationalist organisation ? :confused:

[n0thing]

Are there any problems Republicans don't try to solve with random acts of violence?

[Coggeh]

Are there any problems Republicans don't try to solve with random acts of violence?
*Cough*





Waits for PRC-UTE

[Revy]

Um, the republican trolls are worse. They actually support this RAAD scum mafia which kills anyone suspected of dealing some drugs. Not "kingpins" but just anyone, an ordinary person. But that shit is going to get glamorized by the trolls here for some reason.

[Revy]

stop me if you've heard this one...

Jesus and Trotsky are up in heaven walking along, and talking. They come to a pond. Without thinking about it, Jesus begins to walk across it. When he's about halfway across, Trotsky calls out "Come back! You're doing it all wrong, here I'll show you!!"

Sometimes it truly seems the far left cares more about doing things their way than accomplishing anything at all :confused:

Right.:rolleyes:
Because instead of following a Marxist, we should follow religion. I'm sorry, but what ever point you were trying to make was clearly obscured by that dumb joke.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Gangsters killing other gangsters?

Unheard of!

[IrishWorker]

In the absence of an acceptable police force in Republican areas this type of community action is supported by the people.
The PSNI don’t give two monkeys fucks what goes on in these areas and would be happy to see them degenerate into drug infested ghettos those volunteers have the support of the people and direct action is the only way to deal with the vultures who poison there own community with hard drugs.
In the parts of Ireland where republicans wield no power Heroin and Cocaine are major social problems.
These people exist as an alternative and carry out these attacks due to pressure from the community’s where they live and work.
So fuck all you wankbags who wouldn’t have the balls to confront a fast driver or an unruly neighbor but will gladly sit on here running community activists into the ground.

[ls]

Self-defense: verboten!

Do you even know what that means?


Next time you get attacked by BNP thugs, don't go crying about it. Wait--that ain't never happening, and we all know why.

That's rich coming from you, the third-worldist petit-bourgeoisie college spoilt brat kid.

[khad]

Um, the republican trolls are worse. They actually support this RAAD scum mafia which kills anyone suspected of dealing some drugs. Not "kingpins" but just anyone, an ordinary person. But that shit is going to get glamorized by the trolls here for some reason.
Yeah, republicans are just gunning down random drug users left and right. You could be next in line to face the republican TERROR! :rolleyes:

Give me a break. The article says:

“The owner of the house readily admitted being involved in criminality but was unharmed because she has a child and is a victim of substance abuse herself."

[TC]

Their an authoritarian , corporatist, nationalist organisation ? :confused:

They are a group of authoritarian nationalist street thugs, they fit the general usage definition of fascists just like the BNP do (who are also not corporatists); no one adopts the specific mussolinish definition of fascism outside, well, the italian fascist party.

Policing people's morality with violence whether directly or indirectly by targeting those who facilitate it, is reactionary violence against personal freedom.

[Saorsa]

Policing people's morality with violence whether directly or indirectly by targeting those who facilitate it, is reactionary violence against personal freedom.

Justifying the "personal freedom" to push hard drugs in oppressed working class communities against the wishes of the vast majority of residents is bourgeois liberalism.

[*Red*Alert]

Instead, they could be focusing on community action to work to prevent them from coming up, which is infinitely harder and infinitely more useful.
Community Action is always the first port of call, there are numerous examples of anti-drugs groups in Republican areas which take peaceful direct action against drug dealers.

I think RAAD, most likely the INLA, get involved when the drug dealers either refuse to respond to peaceful demands or retaliate.

[*Red*Alert]

Raad are fascists. Fuck them.
Go back to the bourgeoisie Lawyer's association. Or read some more Trotsky, its like poetry, beautiful but practically useless!

[khad]

Justifying the "personal freedom" to push hard drugs in oppressed working class communities against the wishes of the vast majority of residents is bourgeois liberalism.
How dare you! The criminal bourgeoisie has to make money too! I mean, 3kg of cocaine per week will just barely cover groceries, you know. :crying:

[PRC-UTE]

Raad are fascists. Fuck them.

In that case, so are the Chinese, Cubans, etc. They carried out much more extreme anti-drugs campaigns than Republicans would ever dream of.

Your "anlaysis" is just liberal hysteria.

[PRC-UTE]

Community Action is always the first port of call, there are numerous examples of anti-drugs groups in Republican areas which take peaceful direct action against drug dealers.

I think RAAD, most likely the INLA, get involved when the drug dealers either refuse to respond to peaceful demands or retaliate.

Yeah, like there's always a process of pressure before any violence happens. This strange hysteria about all people involved in any way with the drugs trade getting shot is simply absurd.

AFAIK, the IRSM is against punishment attacks at the present time, including on drug dealers and isn't involved in RAAD. They're involved in the Concerned Families Against Drugs. The CFAD takes a less violent approach, and tries to empower working class communities to organise against the drugs barons. But I can understand why in some cases most workers just want the wealthy gangsters shot.

The INLA has shot a few drug dealers in the last year or so, but that was for using the name of the INLA as a cover for their criminal activities. That's always punishable by death.

[PRC-UTE]

They are a group of authoritarian nationalist street thugs

:):thumbup1:

[Saorsa]

I support the right to take drugs. I've taken several varieties myself, I do so regularly and will continue to do so in the future. But when it can be seen quite conretely that a working class community is being ravaged by the deliberate efforts of gangsters to try and get working class youth addicted to hard drugs, I will never condemn actions taken by these communities to cut out this destructive cancer. It's an act of self determination.

[FreeFocus]

I support the right to take drugs. I've taken several varieties myself, I do so regularly and will continue to do so in the future. But when it can be seen quite conretely that a working class community is being ravaged by the deliberate efforts of gangsters to try and get working class youth addicted to hard drugs, I will never condemn actions taken by these communities to cut out this destructive cancer. It's an act of self determination.

Excellent post.

Most people haven't seen first hand or even understand abstractly what hard drugs do to entire communities, thousands of people hopelessly addicted to drugs. You ever see a community ravaged by meth? I have. If communities take a stand against this and encourage residents to fight against drug pushing, drug violence and drug barons (how are these barons not capitalists, as some have argued? They use gangs to force people to labor for them and are often involved in other activities like prostitution), I will support them.

[Pogue]

But the thing is, this was republicans 'dealing' with the issue, not the working class. I don't think RAAD neccesarily reflects the views or desires of the working class. I personally don't like drugs and what they do but recognise making them illegal is precisely what leads to these drug barons in the first place. Merely killing a few of them acheives fuck all.

[PRC-UTE]

But the thing is, this was republicans 'dealing' with the issue, not the working class. I don't think RAAD neccesarily reflects the views or desires of the working class. I personally don't like drugs and what they do but recognise making them illegal is precisely what leads to these drug barons in the first place. Merely killing a few of them acheives fuck all.

well the reality is that republicans have only done it because the communities they operate it constantly beg them to. they'd be bombarded with requests to 'do something' about the increase in drugs and criminality. When republicans carry out some actions like that for the community, their support grows...that's just the reality. this whole talk like it's an imposition on working class communities, and not their authentic desire is something I've only heard from the Left, really.

but I agree that shooting a few dealers won't really solve the problem.

[Pogue]

But is there any evidence of the working class begging the republicans to do anything?

[PRC-UTE]

But is there any evidence of the working class begging the republicans to do anything?

Yes, of course. I don't make things up.

[Pogue]

Yes, of course. I don't make things up.

But where? Because I've heard people tell me Republicanism is all but dead in the North, especially seeing as the IRSP is so small now.

[PRC-UTE]

But where? Because I've heard people tell me Republicanism is all but dead in the North, especially seeing as the IRSP is so small now.

We've gone over that subject before, and you know you're wrong. Stop wasting my time.

If you want to know where there are punishment shootings, just look it up. It matters sfa whether you believe me or not.

[Pogue]

I think the fact I ask questions and you tell me I know I am wrong shows how much you want to avoid actually engaging. As I said, my Irish friend said the IRSP are nothing now, which is why I am sceptical about the community 'begging' the republicans to deal with drug dealers. Please give me some evidence.

[*Red*Alert]

But is there any evidence of the working class begging the republicans to do anything?
In fairness, I'll admit that there have been a number of occasions where the INLA, Real IRA, and Continuity IRA have been approached in working class communities, such as Ardoyne and the Bogside in Derry, to deal with social miscreants including both drug dealers, and paedophiles/rapists (one of whom was shot recently in another "punishment" style attack). Its actually a growing problem for Sinn Fein in the North.

[PRC-UTE]

I think the fact I ask questions and you tell me I know I am wrong shows how much you want to avoid actually engaging. As I said, my Irish friend said the IRSP are nothing now, which is why I am sceptical about the community 'begging' the republicans to deal with drug dealers. Please give me some evidence.

We had a discussion yesterday I think it was, regarding the IRSP being "nothing" and I provided links showing that wasn't so. Go read those.

It's quite well known that republicans performed that service for communities because they were requested to, not that they forced the policy on working class areas in the Troubles. That's not even remotely controversial that this is what happened; as I said before, I've only seen that questioned here on Revleft. See any serious book on the Troubles and the author will confirm this, or talk to anyone that lived through that period.

'These methods gained a surprisingly high level of approval among the Catholic working class. It was rough justice but it was better than none, and the victims of it were often thought to have got what they deserved.'
Bishop & Mallie, The Provisional IRA chapter 16, page 291

[Pogue]

I'm talking about now though.

[Redmau5]

Go back to the bourgeoisie Lawyer's association. Or read some more Trotsky, its like poetry, beautiful but practically useless!

Yes, even though you mentioned in your introduction thread that you thought about joining the SP on several occasions. Have you even read Trotsky?

Anyway, I know from personal experience that these kinds of measures against drug dealers are usually met with support by people in republican areas. The issue is not simply about drugs. The people targeted in these attacks are often involved in a whole host of other anti-social behaviour, whether it be burglary, assault or stealing cars. Of course, that doesn't mean the actions carried out by RAAD or any other group are always right, and it certainly isn't a solution to the problem of anti-social behaviour in working-class areas. But these groups don't exist in a vacuum. They're actively and passively supported by their communities.

[Guerrilla22]

While I'm not going to rail against people for choosing to use drugs/alcohol in a recreational manner, nor am I going to advocate vigilantism, however I thinkwe do need to acknowledge that their are some rather negative aspects of the drug trade, especially when it comes to cocaine.

Aside from the negative health aspects associated, innocent working class individuals all too often become victims of the violence associated witht he drug trade as we are seeing in Mexico. The sale of cocaine continues to be a major source of funding for paramilitary groups in Colombia. The same paramilitary groups that are knocking off individuals involved in organized labor on a weekly basis in that country. They also participate in "social cleansing" operations where they often kill people who become addicted to the very drugs that fund them. During the 1980's the CIA actually imported cocaine into the US to fund the terrorist activites of the Contras in Nicaragua.

While it's true that poverty is the main source of the misery for people living inside impoverished areas in large cities and elsewhere, the introduction of drugs only helps to perpetuate the situation. Impoverished individuals will often turn to recreational drugs to escape their meager reality. Unfortuantely doing so has extremely negative affects.

Drugs like crack, black tar heroin and even alcohol when abused amount to poison. The other day there was a woman wandering around my apartment complex offering to sell her body in exchange for a little bit of money or "a couple hits."While many small time dealers are just individuals who are impoverished themselves and trying to compensate for the fact, many large dealers are not. I don't think it's ok to profit from selling desperate people the means to kill themselves. The same is true on reservations where individuals set up liquor stores nearby to take advantage of rampant alcoholism on the reservations.

[n0thing]

Their solution to drug addiction is to shoot the drug dealers?

Are these people just a little bit thick?

Vigilante justice should never be seriously considered as a workable alternative to institutionalized justice. At least in the state justice system we have some sort of input, and can observe and remark on the process, and the people participating in the process. And if the system is not efficient, or does not represent the people, then you need to explore ways to change the system so that it does. What you don't need to do, is put justice in the hands of a small group of anonymous, and probably reasonably knee-jerk, fanatical gun-men.

[Saorsa]

Vigilante justice should never be seriously considered as a workable alternative to institutionalized justice.

Institutionalised justice under capitalism is an oxymoron. Espescially in a place like the occupied 6 counties where the state is sectarian to the core.


At least in the state justice system we have some sort of input, and can observe and remark on the process, and the people participating in the process. And if the system is not efficient, or does not represent the people, then you need to explore ways to change the system so that it does.

Reformism ftw!

RAAD represents the anger of the oppressed working class communities and their desire to express this anger through a channel other than that of the sectarian, oppressive state they live under.

[n0thing]

Institutionalised justice under capitalism is an oxymoron. Espescially in a place like the occupied 6 counties where the state is sectarian to the core.



Reformism ftw!

RAAD represents the anger of the oppressed working class communities and their desire to express this anger through a channel other than that of the sectarian, oppressive state they live under.
The 6 counties are occupied by their own population, who continuously vote to remain part of the UK.

The Northern Irish are not oppressed, you tard.

[Saorsa]

The Northern Irish are not oppressed, you tard.

Yeesh... I'll get to rebutting that rubbish in a wee bit, but for now I'd just like to request that you don't use the word 'retard' as an offensive term as it's disrespectful to people with disabilities.

[ls]

The 6 counties are occupied by their own population

Well yeah, but also by soldiers and police who work together and discriminate badly against the Catholic minority..


who continuously vote to remain part of the UK.

Who does and what difference does it make what they vote to be part of? Do they even get that vote?

I take this same line with republicans; becoming part of the ROI is just as stupid as advocating being part of the UK. Why do you care what bourgeoisie government they are aligned with? Are you a Unionist?


The Northern Irish are not oppressed, you tard.

Catholics in NI have faced centuries of oppression, that's not even up for debate.

[n0thing]

Well yeah, but also by soldiers and police who work together and discriminate badly against the Catholic minority..



Who does and what difference does it make what they vote to be part of? Do they even get that vote?

I take this same line with republicans; becoming part of the ROI is just as stupid as advocating being part of the UK. Why do you care what bourgeoisie government they are aligned with? Are you a Unionist?



Catholics in NI have faced centuries of oppression, that's not even up for debate.
The oppression is over. It's not really any of my business how NI ends up aligned. I want whatever the Northern Irish want. I absolutely do not care what bourgeois government they are aligned with. I would rather they didn't go out and slaughter each other whilst they're trying to decide, though.

[Led Zeppelin]

Go back to the bourgeoisie Lawyer's association. Or read some more Trotsky, its like poetry, beautiful but practically useless!

TC isn't a Trotskyist.

You should stop using that as a political slur.

[IrishWorker]

The oppression is over. It's not really any of my business how NI ends up aligned. I want whatever the Northern Irish want. I absolutely do not care what bourgeois government they are aligned with. I would rather they didn't go out and slaughter each other whilst they're trying to decide, though.

Spoken like a true self righteous ignoramus.

[*Red*Alert]

Yes, even though you mentioned in your introduction thread that you thought about joining the SP on several occasions. Have you even read Trotsky?
I had no idea that a large number were so opposed to national liberation. The majority of CWI have really shown their true colours on here, and so now I use the term as a political slur.

No I haven't read it in any great detail, merely skimmed through it.

[ls]

The oppression is over.

Tell that to the Kevin McDaid's widow.


It's not really any of my business how NI ends up aligned.

Ah, you don't believe in national liberation but you think people should "mind their own business" in the national politics of a country other than their own. That's completely logically sound.


I want whatever the Northern Irish want. I absolutely do not care what bourgeois government they are aligned with. I would rather they didn't go out and slaughter each other whilst they're trying to decide, though.

Slaughter is going to happen as long as the working-class remains so divided in NI, it's a fallacy to think that any factions of the bourgeoisie are going to prevent slaughter of Catholics or Protestants.

It's up to the left in NI to do the best they can to actively prevent alignment with either the ROI or the UK, neither side can bring about socialism there and the people who are best working at this there, are the SP and the WSM. I think those are the simple facts of the matter.

[khad]

Drugs like crack, black tar heroin and even alcohol when abused amount to poison. The other day there was a woman wandering around my apartment complex offering to sell her body in exchange for a little bit of money or "a couple hits."While many small time dealers are just individuals who are impoverished themselves and trying to compensate for the fact, many large dealers are not. I don't think it's ok to profit from selling desperate people the means to kill themselves. The same is true on reservations where individuals set up liquor stores nearby to take advantage of rampant alcoholism on the reservations.
Indeed, it isn't the case that vigilantes are going after mere addicts. The woman and child who were caught up in this raid against the target were unharmed, as the article states. I don't think anyone in this thread has ever supported harming these types of people--many of the smaller dealers even are victims of substance abuse themselves.

However, what astounds me about this thread is the extent to which sympathy flows out like a river for the bourgeoise of the criminal element. Do you have any idea how many lives a guy like this has ruined? (And don't use that rightwing libertarian retort of "It was their free choice to ruin their lives!") This is not a dime-and-nickel dealer but a local kingpin. As others have stated, the fact that a punishment operation has been ordered against him shows the extent to which he is a blight upon the community. Vigilante targeting happens only after intimidation and community pressure fail to have any impact and is essentially the final resort.


Sounds like a bunch of D.A.R.E. wannabe-radicals who think drugs are the reason for all their problems, so they go around and brutally murder "criminal" elements. Last time I checked selling some crack and stealing a few things shouldn't make you worthy of death.

Perhaps it's not even clear at this point in the thread. 3kg of cocaine per week is not just "some drugs." This is not some poor bloke trying to make ends meet. Save the working class sympathy for the real working class, who are victims of narco-capitalists like this guy. I would never have expected leftists who constantly bash corporations and CEOs to have so much sympathy for a drug baron.

[IrishWorker]

Indeed, it isn't the case that vigilantes are going after mere addicts. The woman and child who were caught up in this raid against the target were unharmed, as the article states. I don't think anyone in this thread has ever supported harming these types of people--many of the smaller dealers even are victims of substance abuse themselves.

However, what astounds me about this thread is the extent to which sympathy flows out like a river for the bourgeoise of the criminal element. Do you have any idea how many lives a guy like this has ruined? (And don't use that rightwing libertarian retort of "It was their free choice to ruin their lives!") This is not a dime-and-nickel dealer but a local kingpin. As others have stated, the fact that a punishment operation has been ordered against him shows the extent to which he is a blight upon the community. Vigilante targeting happens only after intimidation and community pressure fail to have any impact and is essentially the final resort.



Perhaps it's not even clear at this point in the thread. 3kg of cocaine per week is not just "some drugs." This is not some poor bloke trying to make ends meet. Save the working class sympathy for the real working class, who are victims of narco-capitalists like this guy. I would never have expected leftists who constantly bash corporations and CEOs to have so much sympathy for a drug baron.

Spot on again Khad the anchroDruggies and Libertarian nobody’s are so far detached from there own class that they would have sympathy for individuals who exploit the workers and poison children.
If this is the type of "socialist utopia" they are "fighting" for they can stick it up there arse.
Drug dealers are enemies of our class and should be treated as such.

[IrishWorker]

I had no idea that a large number were so opposed to national liberation. The majority of CWI have really shown their true colours on here, and so now I use the term as a political slur.

No I haven't read it in any great detail, merely skimmed through it.


You’ll get you’re eyes open on here chara you’ll never hear this shit from Marxist-Leninists or any other true socialists who support the peoples right to self determination free from occupation from Imperialism.
Only the pompous lefties who think they are too good or intelligent and above physical confrontation they are the ones who will shout and bang on the loudest that our struggle in Ireland for socialism is mere nationalistic politics dressed up to look left wing.
The same people who ignore the basic fact that every country must embrace socialism and destroy each country’s ruling class for communism to exist.

[ls]

Community Action is always the first port of call, there are numerous examples of anti-drugs groups in Republican areas which take peaceful direct action against drug dealers.

I think everyone is misunderstanding the point in hand.

It's not that I think violence = bad, it's that it must be perpetrated by the community and not by some masked men going over to just 'intimidate' him.

If the community destroyed their base, beat them up etc I wouldn't complain for a second.


I think RAAD, most likely the INLA, get involved when the drug dealers either refuse to respond to peaceful demands or retaliate.

Well to be honest, most drug dealers aren't going to respond to peaceful demands.

Instead, militant community action should be what's encouraged.


You’ll get you’re eyes open on here chara you’ll never hear this shit from Marxist-Leninists or any other true socialists who support the peoples right to self determination free from occupation from Imperialism.

Ah so all marxist-leninists take exactly the same line of thought?


Only the pompous lefties who think they are too good or intelligent and above physical confrontation they are the ones who will shout and bang on the loudest that our struggle in Ireland for socialism is mere nationalistic politics dressed up to look left wing.

Proof that you haven't even been reading the thread.


The same people who ignore the basic fact that every country must embrace socialism and destroy each country’s ruling class for communism to exist.

Same as above.

[Black_Flag]

Whilst i know drug dealers like this can destroy lives and ruin communities, im afraid im sort of on the fence for now as to weather the actions of RAAD are completely justified. I suppose if it does help the situation then it would be but i don't see how going around and shooting a few drug dealers can change anything as more will just spring up.

Anyways, it seems that the dealer in question has vowed to change his ways.

http://www.derryjournal.com/journal/Drug-dealer-vows-to-39change.5497596.jp

[Reuben]

What about the (many many) workers who like to do a few drugs on the weekend.

[redflag32]

Are there any problems Republicans don't try to solve with random acts of violence?

Maybe civil rights for catholics in the 6 counties and the anti-heroin movement in the 26? Republicans were deeply involved in both. remember both these campaigns were non-violent mass movements.

[Pogue]

maybe the republicans could just plant a bomb somewhere with lots of drug dealers in it. it doesnt mattter if any civilians get killed too, they were probably guilty of something or other anyway. i hear theres alot of drugs in manchester city centre.

[redflag32]

Um, the republican trolls are worse. They actually support this RAAD scum mafia which kills anyone suspected of dealing some drugs. Not "kingpins" but just anyone, an ordinary person. But that shit is going to get glamorized by the trolls here for some reason.

The funny thing is that the community also support republicans with this issue. It might seem a bit full on for you, but the workers are mostly with the republicans on the issue of anti-social behaviour and how to deal with it short term. They certainly aint agreeing with the trendies who go around encouraging people to rob shops and smash shit.

[Pogue]

The funny thing is that the community also support republicans with this issue. It might seem a bit full on for you, but the workers are mostly with the republicans on the issue of anti-social behaviour and how to deal with it short term. They certainly aint agreeing with the trendies who go around encouraging people to rob shops and smash shit.

How would you know if the community supported it? This group is hardly open, is it. Has there been a poll?

[redflag32]

They are a group of authoritarian nationalist street thugs, they fit the general usage definition of fascists just like the BNP do (who are also not corporatists); no one adopts the specific mussolinish definition of fascism outside, well, the italian fascist party.

Policing people's morality with violence whether directly or indirectly by targeting those who facilitate it, is reactionary violence against personal freedom.

Personal freedom:laugh: You sound like a Republican Sinn Fein romantic.:lol:

[redflag32]

But the thing is, this was republicans 'dealing' with the issue, not the working class. I don't think RAAD neccesarily reflects the views or desires of the working class. I personally don't like drugs and what they do but recognise making them illegal is precisely what leads to these drug barons in the first place. Merely killing a few of them acheives fuck all.

The problem with your opinion is that you know absolutely NOTHING about the situation on the ground. You have no idea who the RAAD are or what they do in the community before these attacks occur (if anything). Your opinion, which is clear to all, is based purely on hatred for Irish republicans. Your Unionism is destroying your ability to be a genuine social progressive.

[Pogue]

The problem with your opinion is that you know absolutely NOTHING about the situation on the ground. You have no idea who the RAAD are or what they do in the community before these attacks occur (if anything). Your opinion, which is clear to all, is based purely on hatred for Irish republicans. Your Unionism is destroying your ability to be a genuine social progressive.

My question still stands. Can you prove the community is behind this group, or will you continue to just call me a Unionist?

[redflag32]

I think the fact I ask questions and you tell me I know I am wrong shows how much you want to avoid actually engaging. As I said, my Irish friend said the IRSP are nothing now, which is why I am sceptical about the community 'begging' the republicans to deal with drug dealers. Please give me some evidence.

The IRSP are not carrying these attacks out so your point doesnt make any sense. What if you are right and the IRSP are on thier last legs. That doesnt mean republicanism is on its last leg. The IRSP is just one branch of republicanism. Your just trying to debase the RSM in a sneaky kind of way,its very childish. "your irish friend", good one :thumbup1:

[Pogue]

The IRSP are not carrying these attacks out so your point doesnt make any sense. What if you are right and the IRSP are on thier last legs. That doesnt mean republicanism is on its last leg. The IRSP is just one branch of republicanism. Your just trying to debase the RSM in a sneaky kind of way,its very childish. "your irish friend", good one :thumbup1:

Damn, you got me. I guess it is really unusual for me to have an Irish friend in London, an area well known for the total lack of Irish people.

Do you have any evidence that the community supports RAAD?

[redflag32]

It's quite well known that republicans performed that service for communities because they were requested to, not that they forced the policy on working class areas in the Troubles. That's not even remotely controversial that this is what happened; as I said before, I've only seen that questioned here on Revleft. See any serious book on the Troubles and the author will confirm this, or talk to anyone that lived through that period.

'These methods gained a surprisingly high level of approval among the Catholic working class. It was rough justice but it was better than none, and the victims of it were often thought to have got what they deserved.'
Bishop & Mallie, The Provisional IRA chapter 16, page 291

Very true. I myself once believed that the IRA had forced this service on the people so i was surprised to hear from many (non-SF) republicans from that period say how i was wrong to assume that.

Anti-social/drug behaviour only really kicked off in the 6 counties after the GFA. Anybody who didnt notice this must be living in a bubble or not interested in irish current affairs.

[redflag32]

The 6 counties are occupied by their own population, who continuously vote to remain part of the UK.

The Northern Irish are not oppressed, you tard.

So your a Unionist, nice:confused:

[Pogue]

Is there any evidence to show the community support RAAD?

[redflag32]

How would you know if the community supported it? This group is hardly open, is it. Has there been a poll?

Republican and non-republican aggressive actions towards major drug dealers and anti-social elements has been around a long time my friend. trust me, anybody living in this country is aware of the populations feelings on the matter.

What we can say for sure though, is that you havent the foggiest idea whats going on in the 6 counties. End of argument.

[Pogue]

Republican and non-republican aggressive actions towards major drug dealers and anti-social elements has been around a long time my friend. trust me, anybody living in this country is aware of the populations feelings on the matter.

What we can say for sure though, is that you havent the foggiest idea whats going on in the 6 counties. End of argument.

Wow, thats a really good arguing technique, I wish I could learn to do that.

So you don't actually have any evidence that RAAD have the support of the community?

[redflag32]

Wow, thats a really good arguing technique, I wish I could learn to do that.

So you don't actually have any evidence that RAAD have the support of the community?

Are you asking me to provide a poll which was carried out by the bourgeoisie as evidence for material and concrete social analysis?

Good one Paisley.:thumbup1:

[Pogue]

Are you asking me to provide a poll which was carried out by the bourgeoisie as evidence for material and concrete social analysis?

Good one Paisley.:thumbup1:

No, I just want any evidence that would suggest that RAAD and their actions are supported by the community.

[redflag32]

No, I just want any evidence that would suggest that RAAD and their actions are supported by the community.

Ive already told you, this sort of thing hasnt just sprung up over night. If you want genuine evidence i suppose you could take a look at the mass support the anti-heroin movement had from the workers in the 26 counties during the early 80's and 90's. Workers were creating road blocks in their own community to scout for dealers. They were also organising themselves (with the help and assistance,not control of republicans) with weekly meetings and marches to dealers houses to kick them out. All of this couldnt have happened( as was said by one of the main non- republican activists involved at that time) if the threat for serious violence from the IRA or its actually happening wasnt a reality at the same time.

Seriously, there are books out there that can inform you on all this comrade.

[Pogue]

Ive already told you, this sort of thing hasnt just sprung up over night. If you want genuine evidence i suppose you could take a look at the mass support the anti-heroin movement had from the workers in the 26 counties during the early 80's and 90's. Workers were creating road blocks in their own community to scout for dealers. They were also organising themselves (with the help and assistance,not control of republicans) with weekly meetings and marches to dealers houses to kick them out. All of this couldnt have happened( as was said by one of the main non- republican activists involved at that time) if the threat for serious violence from the IRA or its actually happening wasnt a reality at the same time.

Seriously, there are books out there that can inform you on all this comrade.

But I'm talking about now. I think support for republicanism has dropped significantly in the here and now since the last few decades.

So my original question stands, is there any evidence that RAAD have the supprot from the community you claim they do or am I supposed to carry on taking your word for it?

[redflag32]

[QUOTE]But I'm talking about now. I think support for republicanism has dropped significantly in the here and now since the last few decades.

But why do you think your opinion, which is divorced from the reality of the situation, is more relevent than mine? I live here. It doesnt matter what you think, unless you have evidence to back your opinion up. Atleast i have personal experience, you dont.


So my original question stands, is there any evidence that RAAD have the supprot from the community you claim they do

Well going from the FACT that their was mass support for these actions all through Irish history and even modern history and also the FACT that their hasnt been any noticeable mass objection to the actions of RAAD, i think we can assume that these actions are supported cant we? or are you going to shift the goal posts again and winge about the fact that i havent personally gone out and done a door to door survey?



or am I supposed to carry on taking your word for it?

As apposed to you Irish friend in London?

[Pogue]

[QUOTE=Pogue;1505996]

But why do you think your opinion, which is divorced from the reality of the situation, is more relevent than mine? I live here. It doesnt matter what you think, unless you have evidence to back your opinion up. Atleast i have personal experience, you dont.



Well going from the FACT that their was mass support for these actions all through Irish history and even modern history and also the FACT that their hasnt been any noticeable mass objection to the actions of RAAD, i think we can assume that these actions are supported cant we? or are you going to shift the goal posts again and winge about the fact that i havent personally gone out and done a door to door survey?




As apposed to you Irish friend in London?

I don't really care for your opinion. I want some evidence, and you haven't supplied me any. This makes me think that you are in fact making it up, because, as I believe, the RAAD do not have any support from the community, you just wish they did.

[redflag32]

[QUOTE=redflag32;1506022]

I don't really care for your opinion. I want some evidence, and you haven't supplied me any. This makes me think that you are in fact making it up, because, as I believe, the RAAD do not have any support from the community, you just wish they did.

What constitues evidence for you then? ive tried in many ways to explain this to you, but you keep shifting the posts just so you dont have to agree with a Republican.

[Pogue]

[QUOTE=Pogue;1506027]

What constitues evidence for you then? ive tried in many ways to explain this to you, but you keep shifting the posts just so you dont have to agree with a Republican.

You have quite an imagination don't you.

Anything will do. Anything which would support the idea that RAAD is supported by the community.

[redflag32]

[QUOTE=redflag32;1506033]

You have quite an imagination don't you.

Anything will do. Anything which would support the idea that RAAD is supported by the community.

So historical evidence doesnt go under the term "anything"?

really hard to agree with a republican isnt it:laugh:

[Pogue]

[QUOTE=Pogue;1506070]

So historical evidence doesnt go under the term "anything"?

really hard to agree with a republican isnt it:laugh:

But we're talking about RAAD in 2009, as I've constantly reasserrted.

Why don't you just provide the evidence? In my opinion your dodging the question(I've asked about 4 times now and you've consistently given me odd answers, something I've noticed alot of the republicans do when challenged on this forum) because there is no evidence.

[khad]

Can you guys stop this bickering? This situation just got an amicable solution.

I will say, though, this scoundrel probably has more than enough money to retire.

http://www.derryjournal.com/journal/Drug-dealer-vows-to-39change.5497596.jp



Drug dealer vows to 'change his ways' after RAAD death threat



Published Date: 28 July 2009
By Staff reporter
A self-confessed drug dealer peddling up to £60,000 worth of cocaine a week claims he's "changed his ways" after being interrogated by Republican Action Against Drugs (RAAD).
The 24-year-old, who was quizzed by the organisation over the weekend, told the ‘Journal’ yesterday that his “drug-dealing days are over.”

The man - who asked to remain anonymous - says he made a conscious decision to “turn his life around” after RAAD members took over his home in Derry two weeks ago.

During a search of the property, RAAD claim they found evidence confirming the 24-year-old’s involvement in the local drugs trade.

The man told the ‘Journal’ he had been supplying other drug dealers with up to three kilos of cocaine per week - an amount, he estimated, with a street value of around £60,000.

He said he had been “shocked” by the amount of information RAAD had on him.

“I had convinced myself that I ran a fairly tight operation,” he said. “I thought I was OK. I told myself I was safe. I have to say I was amazed at the amount of information they had on me.

“Every move I made, they knew about it. They were able to tell me where I’d been and who I’d been meeting.”

The 24-year-old says he now wants to “get his life back together”.

“RAAD told me that anyone owning up to their involvement in drugs will be given a second chance. I now just want to get on with my life. I don’t want my family worrying themselves sick about me. I want to be able to walk down the street without constantly looking over my shoulder. “

‘Wise up’

He also urged others involved in dealing drugs to “wise up.”

“It’s not a matter of if but when they’ll be caught. I thought I ran a very tight ship but I was wrong. At the end of the day, these people know who’s dealing drugs in Derry and it’s just a matter of time before they catch up with you. It really isn’t worth it.”

[Pogue]

But we're disputing the issue of whether the community support RAAD.

[redflag32]

[QUOTE=redflag32;1506088]

But we're talking about RAAD in 2009, as I've constantly reasserrted.

Why don't you just provide the evidence? In my opinion your dodging the question(I've asked about 4 times now and you've consistently given me odd answers, something I've noticed alot of the republicans do when challenged on this forum) because there is no evidence.

Ive already told you, that the evidence is in the fact that we havent seen a noticeable change between the support which was present in the past for the DAAD and other viggie activities and that which is there today for RAAD.

You already said you are looking for "anything". Surely this fits. Unless ofcourse your looking for bourgeois led polls or something?

[Pogue]

[QUOTE=Pogue;1506091]

Ive already told you, that the evidence is in the fact that we havent seen a noticeable change between the support which was present in the past for the DAAD and other viggie activities and that which is there today for RAAD.

You already said you are looking for "anything". Surely this fits. Unless ofcourse your looking for bourgeois led polls or something?

I don't think 'A similar group in the past was popular so this one must be too' really counts as 'evidence'. I'll take this as you admitting there is in fact no evidence to suggest the community supports RAAD.

[khad]

But we're disputing the issue of whether the community support RAAD.
Look, it's all hearsay on these internet boards anyway, but for what it's worth I've heard someone who's recently talked to people in these communities. Not over the RAAD issue, but over the BNP loyalist gangs that are raising trouble in republican neighborhoods given the recent tensions with the resurgence of violence. Republicans have taken it upon themselves to organize armed patrols of their neighborhoods. Apparently even old pensioners felt safer with these people out on the streets.

It's a pretty safe bet that RAAD is supported by the community. It would not have gone to RAAD if the community hadn't tried pressuring the drug dealer in question first.

[redflag32]

Can you guys stop this bickering? This situation just got an amicable solution.

I will say, though, this scoundrel probably has more than enough money to retire.

http://www.derryjournal.com/journal/Drug-dealer-vows-to-39change.5497596.jp

We're actually behaving in a very mature way i thought.

[Pogue]

Look, it's all hearsay on these internet boards anyway, but for what it's worth I've heard someone who's recently talked to people in these communities. Not over the RAAD issue, but over the BNP loyalist gangs that are raising trouble in republican neighborhoods given the recent tensions with the resurgence of violence. Republicans have taken it upon themselves to organize armed patrols of their neighborhoods. Apparently even old pensioners felt safer with these people out on the streets.

It's a pretty safe bet that RAAD is supported by the community. It would not have gone to RAAD if the community hadn't tried pressuring the drug dealer in question first.

This is not evidence, it is simply opinion.

[redflag32]

This is not evidence, it is simply opinion.

But your not willing to accept that OR bourgeois led polls. What exactly constitutes evidence then?

[Pogue]

OK you've dodged the question long enough, its pretty clear that as I thought theres no actual proof that the RAAD is supported by the community.

[Chicano Shamrock]

I don't understand how the amount of drugs they are peddling or what kind of drugs they are peddling matters. Unless the drugs are dirty and killing people. The choice is personal if someone wants to do drugs. If they abuse the drugs that is their problem. There is always something they can get their hands on to abuse. The will to not abuse substances can not be mandated by killing a drug dealer.

Now if this person selling the drugs is killing people and what not that is different. If they are intimidating people with violence then the RAAD might have done right. However if they just move the product and defend themselves why would someone mess with them? So they make money(and maybe a lot of it) off the books without paying taxes... What do you care if it's off the books?

I don't really know much about the situation and I am so far removed that I withhold judgment. These are just questions that popped in my head while going through this thread.

Another thing that popped in my head while reading this was that from what I saw the people that that were so vehemently opposed to this and calling RAAD scum were from England or somewhere else in the UK. Coincidence or years of education in that particular part of the world being fed a particular train of thought on Republicans? Just something I noticed as a bystander.

[Revy]

It actually doesn't matter if the community supports them emphatically. They are engaging in murder of people for moral "sins" like drugs. If the community is impoverished that is not the magical fault of drugs it is the fault of the capitalist system. Really, stop with the bullshit already.

And RAAD are scum , if a similar group existed in the US I would call them scum too. The fact that some people here construe this bullshit as "class struggle" shows how empty their ideology is.

[FreeFocus]

It actually doesn't matter if the community supports them emphatically. They are engaging in murder of people for moral "sins" like drugs. If the community is impoverished that is not the magical fault of drugs it is the fault of the capitalist system. Really, stop with the bullshit already.

And RAAD are scum , if a similar group existed in the US I would call them scum too. The fact that some people here construe this bullshit as "class struggle" shows how empty their ideology is.

*sigh*

They aren't killing your average drug addict. They are going after barons, people who push the shit into the community.

Too many people on RevLeft simply have no experience on the ground, in the real world. You've never seen a community ravaged by drugs. It kills entire communities. Capitalism isn't going to fall overnight. In the meantime, people shouldn't have to worry about getting killed in a drive-by or mugged by someone trying to get money for drugs.

[Pogue]

*sigh*

They aren't killing your average drug addict. They are going after barons, people who push the shit into the community.

Too many people on RevLeft simply have no experience on the ground, in the real world. You've never seen a community ravaged by drugs. It kills entire communities. Capitalism isn't going to fall overnight. In the meantime, people shouldn't have to worry about getting killed in a drive-by or mugged by someone trying to get money for drugs.

I think the most interesting thing about how many people on this forum address the idea of real working class communities is both hilarious and telling. Everyone is arguing that everyone else doesn't know what its like to be working class, some people openly talk about the working class as a mythical creature we are detached from. Does no one here assume that many members of this board are working class, are working minimum wage in shit work, or maybe even have lost their jobs and are currently unemployed? Seriously, all this posturing is pathetic. I know what drugs do to a community because I live in a community, I'm a young male, one of the groups most likely to try drugs, and I have first hand experience. I think most people on this board do, its not as though your mythical and priviliged if you happen to live in an economically deprived area because its 'genuinely working class', and I don't think its really sometihng to boast about that you've 'Experienced the reality, man' because most of us have. Its hardly a rare thing in a working class community. I don't live in the occupied north but I do live in an average working class area (as most people do seeing as the working class is obviously the majority of the world) so I too know what drugs do.

I know they are disgusting and the people who make the profit from them are scum of the highest order. I also know alot of the sellers are down and outers, or just kids looking to make a bit of easy money. Make of this what you will, some of them might be desperate kids pushed to it, some of them might be simply too disinterested in getting a legal job, some might have been forced into it by gangs, you can't just generalise. I know alot of people who are into drugs from all classes. I think one interesting thing is I have encountered alot of middle class kids who enjoy the rebellious excitement of drugs, more so then I meet working class users. Obviously the drugs tend to devastate economically deprived areas more but its also a middle class thing because they (their parents) have the money and time.

From my perspective as a working class male I've never been interested in drugs whatsoever. The government education on it isn't that bad. Theres obviously the usual 'down with the kids shit' which always fails. Sometimes I think they should just make it black and white with no sound just telling us how we'll get fucked up if we snort cocaine every morning for breakfast because there is nothing worse than seeing old people trying to reproduce the culture of young people. But mainly from my parents I learn its shit. Both are nurses and my dad deals with alot of drug issues through his work so I sort of learnt early on its not good stuff. I think this is the best form of education. I don't like crime, as people have rightly said it devistates communities so I have never approved of getting involved with drugs whilst also recognising why people do it.

I don't want to sound like crimethinc but I find the whole culture of drug usage boring. Mainly because I've seen it from the perspective of rebellious middle class kids being naughty. Another thing I find funny is out of the people I know its the richer kids who tend to go for the harder drugs. Mainly because the rest of us don't have the money and also desire to get a crack habit I guess. Like most people (oncemore, theres a very telling exclusion) I've experienced how boring life under capitalism is but I've never been tempted to go home and inject heroin to get over it. Although I am not entirely pure (STRAIGHT EDGE) because I drink, I don't think temporary excitement from getting high is fun. The idea of weed soudns boring too. To me its a boring drug. It should be legal though, and I understand why people do it but I don't trust anything you have to smoke and when I talk to someone who is stoned I just think they are dull. And then eventually you get used to it and you don't get that high anyway. Whatever, never really seen the appeal.

I think the thing I am getting at is that we all know what these drugs do. I don't think its as simple as some people like to think it is. There is personal choice, but obviously material circumstances have a big set on this. I just think we have to approach this issue rationally. To be honest I quite like the idea of beating the shit out of a scourges on the community too but you have to recognise when its appropriate, and furthermore when it can be considered 'political community action' or not. Which is why I was interested to know the extent to which RAAD have the backing of the community. I think action such as RAAD's is potentially alienating if it doesn't involve the community more, but I do recognise of course theres always going to be something of a minority willing to actually get militant on these issues.

So yeh essentially I think we have to be rational. Beating the shit out of drug dealers can't and won't solve the issue. By all means defend your community physically if needed but do it properly. I think we need, as revolutionaries, to dedicate time and energy into trying to solve the problem of drug abuse. I think genuinely that only socialists can do this. This could mean many things, through to raids and punishments for the barons through to talking to addicts, and even things like legalising then regulating it through the community and as I believe some insurrectionists in the USA do, creating a clean needle network to at least ensure when people abuse drugs the added risk of diseases like HIV/AIDS isn't there. I just think people on all sides of the argument need to treat this like the complex issue it is.

[Black_Flag]

From my own experience RAAD is not as widely supported as many people on this board tend to claim. Sure there are those who do support the actions of RAAD but most people, while they will be happy that another drug baron is taken out of action, do not endorse the methods used as a lot of peple are very keen to move away from this type of violence. So i believe that in order to legitimise any action taken by RAAD it needs to be more wholly endorsed by the community and quite like the tactics proposed by Pogue in the comment above.

[Redmau5]

doesnt mattter if any civilians get killed too, they were probably guilty of something or other anyway. i hear theres alot of drugs in manchester city centre.

No one was killed in the Manchester bomb. If you're going to moralise, at least get your facts right.

[Pogue]

I don't think its moraliaising when one refers to bombing campaigns which kill civilians. I think a pivotal part of being involved in the fate of the working class is wanting them to not get blown to shits by the bombs of nationalist terrorists.