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robbo203
22nd July 2009, 19:10
Who’s afraid of the BNP?

The BNP's racist ideology is hateful and it is understandable – and to be welcomed – that most people don't like it. But what's the best way to deal with them?

Despite the high profile media campaign supported by the churches and all the other parties to try to stop this, the BNP did manage to get two MEPs elected to the European Parliament in last month's elections. The BNP is an obnoxious outfit and people are stupid to vote for it. It is no more able to provide an answer to workers' problems than the other parties. The problems facing working people and their families are not caused, as the BNP claims, by immigration or immigrants and will not be solved by the Fortress Britain they advocate with "British Jobs for British Workers". They are caused by capitalism which the BNP, like the other parties, supports. Even if all immigration was stopped and all (recent) immigrants expelled this would not make things better for those the BNP calls the "indigenous population".

The other parties had a cheek in asking people to vote for them to keep the BNP out. That's because they all support capitalism and it is capitalism's insoluble problems that the BNP exploits to gain votes. Voting for some other capitalist party to keep the BNP out is as stupid as voting for the BNP. That’s to vote to maintain the conditions which allow the BNP to flourish.

Others, on the Far Left, want to take a more confrontational attitude towards the BNP. They say it is a fascist party and that it should be physically "smashed" before it has a chance to smash political democracy. One problem with this is that the BNP is not a fascist party. Some of its leaders have expressed pro-Nazi sympathies in the past (and may well still harbour them) but, unlike the Nazi party in pre-1933 Germany, the BNP is not blaming parliamentary democracy for causing working-class problems. If it did, it wouldn't get the votes it does. It blames workers' problems on immigration and immigrants. So, it is anti-foreigner and racist, which is objectionable enough, but that's not the same as fascism.

The only effective way to deal with the BNP is to confront their arguments head on and that includes their nationalism. The other parties cannot do this because they too are nationalists. The BNP is only expressing in an extreme form a nationalist position that they themselves share. They have even tried to steal the BNP's clothes here by emphasising that they are against "illegal" immigrants and vie with each other to boast how many they have, or should have, deported. They encourage nationalism by describing members of the armed forces as "heroes" and by flying the Union Jack or even the flag of St George (a traditional fascist emblem) on public buildings. All grist to the BNP's mill.

Like the BNP, the other parties claim that all "British people" have a common interest as against the people of other countries, i.e. as against "foreigners". But this is not the case. UK citizens are divided into two classes, on the basis of their relationship to the means of production – those who own them and those who don't –, whose interests are quite opposed. It is in the interest of those who own Britain to convince the rest of us living here that we share a common interest with them in them acquiring and protecting outside markets and investment outlets. To get us to support them is the role of the nationalism that is inculcated into us from birth and reinforced every day by the media.

The semblance of justification for this is that, if employers are successful in this, then they can offer more and more secure jobs. In actual fact, however, those in one country who have to work for a wage or a salary have a common interest with wage and salary workers in other countries rather than with our employers. That is the socialist, anti-nationalist position which the Socialist Party maintains against all other parties, not just the BNP.

Bash the Fash?
The Far Left have made two mistakes in trying to counter the BNP. The first has been to adopt a policy of physically fighting with them. The second has been to invoke the BNP as a bogey to try to gain recruits amongst post-war immigrants and their families.

Beating somebody up never changed anybody's mind. It probably reinforces their views. In any event, this is defeatist in assuming that people can't change their minds. Which, fortunately, has been disproved many times. For instance, the actor Ricky Tomlinson, who introduced the Scargill Labour Party's Party Political Broadcast in the recent elections, was once a member of the National Front, even a candidate for them in a local election. Now he thinks that the EU not immigrants cause working-class problems. Still wrong, but no longer a racist.

What BNP members need is not a kicking, but putting right. And the best way to do this is to confront the ideas of their leaders in open, public debate. That's why the Socialist Party is opposed to the policy of "No Platform for the BNP". On the contrary, we want them up on a platform to face socialist criticism of their erroneous ideas and futile policies.

Organising particular immigrants as a group, as the SWP tried to do with Muslims through Respect (before George Galloway threw them out and continued this with the aid of other Trotskyist groups), is dangerous and plays straight into the hands of the BNP by introducing "communalist" politics. If, says the BNP, Muslims can organise as a "community" to defend and further their "communal" interests, why can't the "indigenous" (read: "white") working class do the same? Indeed, under Nick Griffin, this is the successful strategy the BNP has pursued. The BNP, he argues, seeks to represent the interests of "indigenous" workers as against immigrants who, he claims, are being given preferential treatment by the "liberal Establishment". It's untrue, but it finds an echo amongst some sections of the working class, though not amongst those living and working in close proximity with immigrants who have learned to regard second and third generation "immigrants" as fellow workers.

In other words, two can play at "communalist" politics and the BNP will always be able to make more progress at this than the Far Left since they are appealing to a majority "community". It is possible to detect a certain jealousy amongst Leftists at the ability of the BNP to "mobilise" workers they would like to be able to mobilise themselves. Indeed, the rivalry between the BNP and the Far Left, which sometimes finds expressed in physical fighting, can be seen as a rivalry between two leadership groups – one calling itself a "vanguard", the other a "spearhead" – to lead workers. To which workers should adopt "a plague on both your houses" attitude.

As capitalism is the cause of the problems workers face these problems will continue as long as capitalism does. And as long as capitalism continues there will always be parties like the BNP which scapegoat other workers as the supposed cause of these problems. The answer is not to stop these parties by voting for other parties or by physically fighting or banning them. It is to organise on a world-wide class basis to end capitalism – which, necessarily, involves a rejection of nationalism.

ADAM BUICK

Holden Caulfield
22nd July 2009, 19:45
(i only read a little bit maybe i will reply more later)

the policy of physically attacking fascists is not to beat up each and everyone so they change their minds it is to hinder the ability of their key fascist organisers to recruit and spread their message in working class communities. It is to defend multi-ethnic working class communities (an injury to one is an injury to all - you throw a racial slur you attack us all) and to make them feel unwelcome. This is a proved tactic, I suggest Adam reads the start of Filling the Vaccum (found in the texts sticky) on this subject.

I wonder what he thinks of Cable Street? Was that an attempt to change the fascist minds or to protect a working class area from being subjected to intimidtion, division and fascism.

Its news to me that the SP don't follow a 'No Platform' stance, not that I am still in the party, but that simply isn't true. We do not support the UAF/SWP/Left List conception on 'no platform' i.e handing the BNP the platform, but we do uphold the position and have fought for it in various places including local universities which i can personally attest to. We do get involved in stuggles they may be trying to influence tho and I suppose this is worth mentioning, a working class struggle occurs for material reasons whether they are recognized or opportunistically manipulated by fascists and we must try to influence them. Might I also state the EU is another piece of armour adopted by the ruling classes and thus something that is used to hold back the working class, similar (obviosuly not directly) to fascism.

Devrim
22nd July 2009, 20:12
Its news to me that the SP don't follow a 'No Platform' stance, not that I am still in the party, but that simply isn't true.

It is by Adam Buick. One would preume that he is refeering to the SPGB.
Devrim

genstrike
22nd July 2009, 20:15
Organising particular immigrants as a group, as the SWP tried to do with Muslims through Respect (before George Galloway threw them out and continued this with the aid of other Trotskyist groups), is dangerous and plays straight into the hands of the BNP by introducing "communalist" politics. If, says the BNP, Muslims can organise as a "community" to defend and further their "communal" interests, why can't the "indigenous" (read: "white") working class do the same? Indeed, under Nick Griffin, this is the successful strategy the BNP has pursued. The BNP, he argues, seeks to represent the interests of "indigenous" workers as against immigrants who, he claims, are being given preferential treatment by the "liberal Establishment". It's untrue, but it finds an echo amongst some sections of the working class, though not amongst those living and working in close proximity with immigrants who have learned to regard second and third generation "immigrants" as fellow workers.

In other words, two can play at "communalist" politics and the BNP will always be able to make more progress at this than the Far Left since they are appealing to a majority "community".


No, you're the one who is playing straight into the hands of the BNP by blaming minorities for racism. You're pretty much saying that to fight the BNP, socialists should tell anyone with skin darker than a suntan to stay home, keep their heads down, and let the white folks do it for them.

We on the left can't be associated with people of colour, it might piss off Nick Griffin! Maybe we should kick all those damn Muslims out of the anti-war movement too, or at least not let them speak or let them take a leadership role in anything. After all, we need to show respectable white workers that we aren't a bunch of god damn towelheads. That will teach them not to be racist and get them to join The Party and we can build up something to defend the white working class. And we need to ensure that the fight against racism isn't taken over by people like Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, etc. It needs to be safely in the hands of white people, because MLK is responsible for the KKK.
(the above paragraph was very heavy sarcasm, just in case it wasn't blatantly obvious)

Seriously, I spent some time in Toronto a few months ago, and their anti-war movement is a lot stronger and more vibrant than in my city because they have a lot of young Muslims and people of colour who are really getting involved. What passes for an anti-war movement in my city is old, white, male, lame, ritualistic and small. And you know what? We only have maybe 300 Tamils in my city of over 600,000, but when there was a rally for Eelam, they easily dwarfed any rally organized by the old white folks in the established anti-war movement. The rallies for Gaza were significantly bigger than the usual anti-war rallies too. There is little I would love to see more than the anti-war movement in my city really work together with and tap into all that potential. Or we can keep the anti-war movement white (hmm, that sounds like a familiar slogan) and continue to flounder.

nuisance
22nd July 2009, 20:38
Yet another gobshite whom doesn't understand militant antifascism.
(hoorah for constructive posts!)

genstrike
22nd July 2009, 20:41
Yet another gobshite whom doesn't understand militant antifascism.
(hoorah for constructive posts!)

are you referring to me or the OP?

robbo203
22nd July 2009, 20:42
No, you're the one who is playing straight into the hands of the BNP by blaming minorities for racism. You're pretty much saying that to fight the BNP, socialists should tell anyone with skin darker than a suntan to stay home, keep their heads down, and let the white folks do it for them.
.

The article is not by me; I merely posted it because it raises some interesting points. OOoops sorry I just realised I omitted to give the reference . Here it is anyway http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/jul09/page10.html

I dont think it says at all what you are saying here. Your assessment is, if I might say, very unfair. I suggest you need to read it again more carefully

genstrike
22nd July 2009, 20:49
The article is not by me; I merely posted it because it raises some interesting points

I dont think it says at all what you are saying here. Your assessment is, if I might say, very unfair. I suggest you read it again more carefully

Oh, sorry, I didn't see a link in the article and must have missed the little signature at the bottom.

But I don't think I'm being unfair, the article clearly points to people of colour organizing their communities in alliance with the left as being "dangerous" and "playing straight into their hands", thus at least partially blaming people of colour for the recent relative popularity of racist parties like the BNP and then trails off into some class reductionism at the end there. Which I think is bullshit.

nuisance
22nd July 2009, 20:52
are you referring to me or the OP?
OP- Adam Buick.

robbo203
22nd July 2009, 21:02
OP- Adam Buick.

I am genuinely curious. What is it that you find objectionable in the article. I would like to see a (reasonably dispassionate) debate about the merits of different approaches to combating fascism

genstrike
22nd July 2009, 21:09
I am genuinely curious. What is it that you find objectionable in the article. I would like to see a (reasonably dispassionate) debate about the merits of different approaches to combating fascism

I've explained what I think is most objectionable in the article, and you just told me to read it again instead of addressing it.

What is the part I quoted saying if it isn't blaming people of colour engaging in community organizing for racism? I think it is pretty clear, but what is your interpretation?

nuisance
22nd July 2009, 21:28
I am genuinely curious. What is it that you find objectionable in the article. I would like to see a (reasonably dispassionate) debate about the merits of different approaches to combating fascism
Holden has pretty much summed up Buicks' misrepresentation of militant tactics in the antifascist struggle. The purpose of this tactic is not to beat members of fascist organisations up in order to 'change minds', it is to inhibit the organisations outreach to working class communities, providing a free space for left wing activists to propagate ideas. It is also stressed that there needs to be phyiscal and ideological confrontation to fascists. We've seen and know what happens when fascists can prance around the streets making leaflet drops and putting on stalls, to the more cocky attacks which has littered history. Fascism promotes ruthless measures, it is a violent ideology and we cannot allow it to take root. However, it is understood that fascism is a creation of capitalism and shall not be abolished once and for all until capitalism is. This is why the ideological battle is also important, strong left-wing feelings will produce resentment towards capitalism and by default fascism. The militant antifascist struggle is one that is rooted in class struggle.

robbo203
22nd July 2009, 21:43
I've explained what I think is most objectionable in the article, and you just told me to read it again instead of addressing it.

What is the part I quoted saying if it isn't blaming people of colour engaging in community organizing for racism? I think it is pretty clear, but what is your interpretation?

Except that wasnt quite what you said. You said "playing straight into the hands of the BNP by blaming minorities for racism". That is quite different to saying as you say now "blaming people of colour engaging in community organizing for racism"

I think the article was pointing to the dangers of the politics of communalism backfiring to advantage of the BNP which can then fraudently pass itself of as the protector of the so called indigebous white communty's interest. Thats my take on it at any rate

Pogue
22nd July 2009, 21:46
I'm not afraid of the BNP, sometimes I walk into their meetings with an 'IRA and Taliban - Brothers under the ZOG forever" t-shirt and sing reggae versions of popular anti-fascist songs just for kicks with my black mate.

genstrike
22nd July 2009, 21:53
Except that wasnt quite what you said. You said "playing straight into the hands of the BNP by blaming minorities for racism". That is quite different to saying as you say now "blaming people of colour engaging in community organizing for racism"

I think the article was pointing to the dangers of the politics of communalism backfiring to advantage of the BNP which can then fraudently pass itself of as the protector of the so called indigebous white communty's interest. Thats my take on it at any rate

So you agree that the article is blaming people of colour for racism (white privilege alert!), and only object to whether this victim-blaming is playing into the BNP's hands or not?

Honestly, I think appropriating the language of the BNP and using it to criticize the conduct of people of colour who are organizing in their communities and working with the left is playing into the hands of the BNP much more than the existence of these people. It is legitimizing the BNP's accusations against people of colour. It is almost saying "the BNP is right, we need to cut this out"

Devrim
22nd July 2009, 22:52
I don't agree with the article on lots of points. However, I don't think that it blames the victims of racism for racism.

I Also think it is a far point to warn against communalist politics.

Devrim

Skin_HeadBanger
25th July 2009, 08:14
How do they excuse them as "non fascist"?
And physical tactics, combined with open debate is the best of both worlds. Make them feel unwelcome, and then make them feel fuckin stupid!

Radical
25th July 2009, 09:49
I have no reason to fear the BNP because I shall die before I allow them to take power

Devrim
25th July 2009, 11:02
How do they excuse them as "non fascist"?
I don't think that the BNP is a fascist party. I don't think that fascism really exists today, and is just a meaningless term that people throw at anybody with far right politics.
Devrim

Coggeh
25th July 2009, 16:18
The SP do not support a platform for fascists . Who the hell wrote the article ?

He may mean the European parliament where the fascists already have a platform and thus we must challenge them .

Devrim
25th July 2009, 17:59
The SP do not support a platform for fascists .

As I have already mentioned it is the SPGB, who have incidentaly called themselves the Socialist Party for a little longer the the CWI have.

Devrim

ls
25th July 2009, 18:47
I don't think that the BNP is a fascist party. I don't think that fascism really exists today, and is just a meaningless term that people throw at anybody with far right politics.
Devrim

Hmm.... I can't agree with this really, you can see plenty of British People's Party idiots doing the sieg heil salute, being useless/ineffective/limp jellyfish doesn't necessarily mean not fascist.