How can left communists lead the international working class?

[Little-Lenin]

:)

I have this question: how can (these small groups of) left communist ever be able to lead the world working class?

In solidarity,

Little-Lenin

[h0m0revolutionary]

You mean as opposed to those HUGE swathes of authoritarian commies who are fully capable of leading the masses right?

[bricolage]

Shouldn't the working class be leading themselves?

[RHIZOMES]

You mean as opposed to those HUGE swathes of authoritarian commies who are fully capable of leading the masses right?

Yep because Leninists have been just as unsuccessful as left-communists! I mean all those failures both historical in overthrowing the Tsarist regime of Russia and defeating the Chinese nationalists up to the present day failures such as the Maoists in Nepal, India and the Phillipines who have gained little to no support from the masses...

Oh wait.

[Dervish]

Shouldn't the working class be leading themselves?

Blah Blah Blah Vanguard Blah Blah Blah

[revolution inaction]

Yep because Leninists have been just as unsuccessful as left-communists! I mean all those failures both historical in overthrowing the Tsarist regime of Russia and defeating the Chinese nationalists up to the present day failures such as the Maoists in Nepal, India and the Phillipines who have gained little to no support from the masses...

Oh wait.

none of your examples has anything to do with socialism, and loads of reactionaries have support from the masses, so i dont know why you bring that up?

But if thats what you want to claim as successes...

I guess it just tells us something about the nature of leninism

[Madvillainy]

Left commies don't pretend to act on behalf of the working class nor do we want to. The working class can represent itself. What I think our role should be at the moment as communists is to work on raising class consciousness among workers, which yea I know doesn't sound as fun as 'leading the international working class' but it's the correct position to take in my opinion.

[robbo203]

:)

I have this question: how can (these small groups of) left communist ever be able to lead the world working class?

In solidarity,

Little-Lenin

Only sheep need leaders. To fleece them

[Lamanov]

Yep because Leninists have been just as unsuccessful as left-communists! I mean all those failures both historical in overthrowing the Tsarist regime of Russia and defeating the Chinese nationalists up to the present day failures such as the Maoists in Nepal, India and the Phillipines who have gained little to no support from the masses...

If those count as Success, we need to update our dictionary.

[Fishoutofwater]

we cannot lead those who do not wish to be followers. the current economic state we are in simply calls for reform of capitalism, the time is not yet for the international workers revolution.

if the world falls into another deppression, not recession, then (in my view) its time for rebelion.

[mykittyhasaboner]

Come on, so people are saying the overthrow of Tsarism, for example, isn't a success? :rolleyes:

Regardless of what you think about Marxism or "Leninists", the abolition of Tsarism, or Japanese imperialism/Chinese nationalists (as a few examples) should be celebrated or at least commended.

[cb9's_unity]

Come on, so people are saying the overthrow of Tsarism, for example, isn't a success? :rolleyes:

Regardless of what you think about Marxism or "Leninists", the abolition of Tsarism, or Japanese imperialism/Chinese nationalists (as a few examples) should be celebrated or at least commended.

Certainly the actions in themselves are to be commended but once these Leninist's actually had control of the working masses they screwed up royally. And whether you blame it on Lenin, Stalin, or Khrushchev in Russia or Mao or Deng in China both ways the Leninist's eventually failed miserably.

[RHIZOMES]

none of your examples has anything to do with socialism, and loads of reactionaries have support from the masses, so i dont know why you bring that up?

But if thats what you want to claim as successes...

I guess it just tells us something about the nature of leninism

Have fun starting your anarchist revolution bro

[The Ungovernable Farce]

Regardless of what you think about Marxism or "Leninists", the abolition of Tsarism, or Japanese imperialism/Chinese nationalists (as a few examples) should be celebrated or at least commended.
Again, Truman defeated Japanese imperialism - do you celebrate him? Also, Lenin only overthrew the constituent assembly, the tsar had already been toppled. Lenin wasn't even in Russia when Tsarism was abolished.

[Revy]

:)

I have this question: how can (these small groups of) left communist ever be able to lead the world working class?

In solidarity,

Little-Lenin

I don't think they believe in doing so. Rather they see it the other way around. I think they see the aim of the party as organization not leadership.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Comrade Stencil, what left-communists really mean by "organization" is mere propagandism. They reject the mass organization that characterized the pre-war SPD and the underrated USPD (http://www.revleft.com/vb/uspd-vs-kpd-t103415/index.html).

[mykittyhasaboner]

Again, Truman defeated Japanese imperialism - do you celebrate him?
No obviously not, and you don't have very well constructed strawman arguments do you?

That is a total logical fallacy, what does Truman (Roosevelt was president for the majority of the war wasn't he?) have to do with anything? Sure the US played a role in the defeat of Japanese imperialism, but did so in an inter-imperialist conflict. So this comparison is really pale, since the revolutions in China which disposed Japanese imperialism can hardly be described as similar to US military operations in the pacific war.


Also, Lenin only overthrew the constituent assembly, the tsar had already been toppled. Lenin wasn't even in Russia when Tsarism was abolished.:lol:

I don't care if Lenin was in Russia when tsarism was abolished, that's not the point.

[Revy]

Comrade Stencil, what left-communists really mean by "organization" is mere propagandism. They reject the mass organization that characterized the pre-war SPD and the underrated USPD.

Yeah, I believe it.

[Forward Union]

:)

I have this question: how can (these small groups of) left communist ever be able to lead the world working class?

In solidarity,

Little-Lenin

They can't.

But it's not because they are small at the moment, it's because they have no intention of engaging with reality.

[Devrim]

But it's not because they are small at the moment, it's because they have no intention of engaging with reality.
Actually in the two European countries that came closest to revolution in the revoltionary wave after the first world war, the struggle was lead by left communists. In Russia too the left was strong and Lenin adopted it's positions in 1917.
The basic positions of the communist left today, against parlimentarianism, against the unions, and against national liberation are those of the German Communist Workers Party, which in itself and it's factory organizations led nearly half a million communist workers at the height of the revolutionary period.
Devrim

[Charles Xavier]

Actually in the two European countries that came closest to revolution in the revoltionary wave after the first world war, the struggle was lead by left communists. In Russia too the left was strong and Lenin adopted it's positions in 1917.
The basic positions of the communist left today, against parlimentarianism, against the unions, and against national liberation are those of the German Communist Workers Party, which in itself and it's factory organizations led nearly half a million communist workers at the height of the revolutionary period.
Devrim


Left Communism isn't an ideology its an opposition. It will only exist as an opposition not as a leading force in any revolution. But an left opposition to all revolution. The Left Communists are not united under a common program or guide to action but in opposition from the ultra-left to all progressive movements. They are sometimes correct on specific positions and policies and sometimes incorrect it all varies from country to country from person to person. They are the unorganizers of the revolution, they are the religious policy of purism. They represent an academic and armchair approach to revolutionary politics, of anti-politics.

[Revy]

Actually in the two European countries that came closest to revolution in the revoltionary wave after the first world war, the struggle was lead by left communists. In Russia too the left was strong and Lenin adopted it's positions in 1917.
The basic positions of the communist left today, against parlimentarianism, against the unions, and against national liberation are those of the German Communist Workers Party, which in itself and it's factory organizations led nearly half a million communist workers at the height of the revolutionary period.
Devrim

I think the question being posed pertains to the present, and whether left communism can become a major force in the world today.



The ICC sees its own role in this process as the vanguard of the workers' movement, in which it neither organises the working class nor takes power in its name, but actively participates within the movement.

Is this true? Specifically the part about not organizing the working class. That's also what Jacob said.

[Forward Union]

Left Communism isn't an ideology its an opposition. It will only exist as an opposition not as a leading force in any revolution.

:cool: king pin

[The Ungovernable Farce]

That is a total logical fallacy, what does Truman (Roosevelt was president for the majority of the war wasn't he?) have to do with anything? Sure the US played a role in the defeat of Japanese imperialism, but did so in an inter-imperialist conflict. So this comparison is really pale, since the revolutions in China which disposed Japanese imperialism can hardly be described as similar to US military operations in the pacific war.

The US defeat of Japanese imperialism was Japanese imperialism being defeated by another faction of capitalism; the independent Chinese state-capitalism defeat of Japanese imperialism was Japanese imperialism being defeated by another faction of capitalism. That's a similarity right there.

I don't care if Lenin was in Russia when tsarism was abolished, that's not the point.
Leninists not actually having done the things you want to give them credit for isn't the point? :confused: What is the point, then?

They can't.

But it's not because they are small at the moment, it's because they have no intention of engaging with reality.
I'll admit that this objection does have some validity to it.