How to be tactful with capitalists in an argument.

[SocialPhilosophy]

I know that capitalists are people too. and i also know that you catch more flies with honey, than vinegar, or so dad taught me. i look around, and all i see is one group alienating the other, back and forth all day. so how do you make your point without resorting to calling them greedy selfish bastards and blocking them? Help. :confused:

[SouthernBelle82]

I point out all that capitalism has done to people and show how it has made things worse for everyone.

[SocialPhilosophy]

I point out all that capitalism has done to people and show how it has made things worse for everyone.

but then they go on about Stalin and i spend the next hour and a half telling them that stalin wasnt a communist.

[#FF0000]

If someone has their mind made up, you aren't really going to change their mind whether you trounce them in debate or not. At least not in one argument.

But yeah other than that I suggest studying economics. Most libertarians have an absurdly shallow understanding of it (hurr) and if you directly challenge anything they say on the subject they usually just sort of sputter and trip all over themselves. Unless they know what they're talking about, but that's rare in my experience.

[Brother No. 1]

but then they go on about Stalin and i spend the next hour and a half telling them that stalin wasnt a communist.

Those who support Capitalism always rant about the lies the Bougoise created to make us look like horrible monsters. Since they can not prove us wrong in any logical/economical way they resort to rants that "Communism has killed millions" and etc.



so how do you make your point without resorting to calling them greedy selfish bastards and blocking them?

Study economics and point out the doings of Capitalism and show them how well it "works" in Africa and Asia.

[ArrowLance]

I know that capitalists are people too. and i also know that you catch more flies with honey, than vinegar, or so dad taught me. i look around, and all i see is one group alienating the other, back and forth all day. so how do you make your point without resorting to calling them greedy selfish bastards and blocking them? Help. :confused:

Capitalists are people? :confused:

[Havet]

point out contradictions between their intentions and the end results, point out contradictions between their beliefs, and what their beliefs will end up causing.

start clarifying terms from the beginning, otherwise everyone will be spending too much time with semantics. Clarify freedom, private property, slavery, state, communism, capitalism, socialism, etc and then move on from there while making sure you're on the same ground.

There's no point in ad hom because
a) there's nothing wrong being selfish, provided its not at the expense of anyone, and it doesn't matter to the conversation anyway.
b)it shows intellectual dishonesty which will further undermine any attempt of reasoning.

[Nwoye]

just make sure to distance yourself from all the crazy stalinists and maoists that creep around this site.

[trivas7]

I point out all that capitalism has done to people and show how it has made things worse for everyone.
Hypostasizing the economy into an agent or person is just stupid. But it's a tactic you collectivists repeatedly fall back upon.

[Pogue]

Arguing with them, I have found, is a waste of time, I usually only do it for a bit of fun and when there is an audience to boost ym ego and share ideas. I've yet to meet someone who claims to support capitalism who can really do it well.

I only really argue these things with working class people when I am trying to show them how my ideas and organisaitons make sense for them as working class people.

[trivas7]

just make sure to distance yourself from all the crazy stalinists and maoists that creep around this site.
"Are we not men?! We are Collectivists (too)!"

[danyboy27]

a good way to discuss about the subject is to bring out the practical aspect of a more egualitarian society in their everyday life rather than talking about money or economics.

technocratic aspect of communism are really appealing for most of people, even capitalists are pissed of how badly their road are build, or about the twerrible they have to wait to get a permit etc etc.


capitalist love strenght, demonstrate that a communist society would give them the possibility to yeild this strenght without exploiting other peoples.

i mean, this is true, if the capitalist x is a real powermonger, nothing stop him from inventing and organizing stuff and getting credit for his effort and having more material confort, this would be valid in a communist society, even better, beccause if he dosnt perform, nothing will avoid their buddies to kick him out of x project.

the whole material confort thing is really good to point out together with the artificial scarcity of the actual ressources.

[SouthernBelle82]

Those who support Capitalism always rant about the lies the Bougoise created to make us look like horrible monsters. Since they can not prove us wrong in any logical/economical way they resort to rants that "Communism has killed millions" and etc.




Study economics and point out the doings of Capitalism and show them how well it "works" in Africa and Asia.

Whenever anyone says that about communism and killing there are so many examples in the last century to use and this one it's ridiculous of capitalism killing people. Nigeria and Shell gas is the latest example a long with the Iraq and Afghanistan occupations and invasions. Don't forget Latin America. After years of corruption and capitalism the people all over the South are rising up and supporting socialism.

[SouthernBelle82]

Hypostasizing the economy into an agent or person is just stupid. But it's a tactic you collectivists repeatedly fall back upon.

What's with this collectivists nonsense? It's not stupid. Lives are killed and ruined daily by capitalism. The Nigerian army is killing people for Shell gas so they can rape and torture the land. Colombia kills union leaders for capitalism. Tell one of those who have lost a loved one it's stupid. You're just pulling crap out of your ass.

[SouthernBelle82]

but then they go on about Stalin and i spend the next hour and a half telling them that stalin wasnt a communist.

Oh of course. It's so annoying. Or they pull some out of context quote's from Lenin.

[SouthernBelle82]

If someone has their mind made up, you aren't really going to change their mind whether you trounce them in debate or not. At least not in one argument.

But yeah other than that I suggest studying economics. Most libertarians have an absurdly shallow understanding of it (hurr) and if you directly challenge anything they say on the subject they usually just sort of sputter and trip all over themselves. Unless they know what they're talking about, but that's rare in my experience.

Haha that's so true. And have you noticed they ALL say the same thing? :confused: It doesn't matter what the topic is either.

[SouthernBelle82]

Arguing with them, I have found, is a waste of time, I usually only do it for a bit of fun and when there is an audience to boost ym ego and share ideas. I've yet to meet someone who claims to support capitalism who can really do it well.

I only really argue these things with working class people when I am trying to show them how my ideas and organisaitons make sense for them as working class people.

And many of them have no clue who Adam Smith is and I bet they'd consider him a communist now days. :lol:

[SocialPhilosophy]

And many of them have no clue who Adam Smith is and I bet they'd consider him a communist now days. :lol:


A few people i have argued with, call him the great capitalist crusader. so i tell them that marx based some of his economic works off of smith, and they are like ":cursing:" "STUPID COMMI BASTRD GO 2 CHINA IF uTHINK COMMUNISM IS SO KOOL" And im like "China is more capitalist than America" and they are like ":cursing:" THEY CALL THEMSELVES COMMUNIST. and im like North Korea Calls its self Democratic. and they're like ":cursing:" *ban*

[JKP]

Capitalists are people? :confused:

A capitalist is about as much of a person as a slave owner. Meaning it places a smile on my face when someone pulls a Nat Turner on one.

[Raúl Duke]

but then they go on about Stalin and i spend the next hour and a half telling them that stalin wasnt a communist.

Usually when I talk to "capitalists" (or more like I just start criticizing capitalism to normal people...I've haven't actually meet a bonafide capitalist)...

I sometimes don't get this response. Sometimes they either talk about liberals (in which case I easily criticize the liberals too, and then they end up confused. This is the case with most conservatives and some libertarians) or state "well what can we do?" In which case I could tell them a few things.

The times I do get a response about the USSR I tell them "I'm not a Leninist" and from then on, if there's a discussion, things get more interesting then the usual "USSR/Cuba/etc is crap!" stuff.

IRL I'm quite "tactful" concerning this (although a few times not, specifically towards libertarians. Although one could say I'm not tactful to the religious right because I probably just don't talk to them, specifically about politics) then I may or may not appear to be here on the forum.

[Raúl Duke]

A few people i have argued with, call him the great capitalist crusader. so i tell them that marx based some of his economic works off of smith, and they are like ":cursing:" "STUPID COMMI BASTRD GO 2 CHINA IF uTHINK COMMUNISM IS SO KOOL" And im like "China is more capitalist than America" and they are like ":cursing:" THEY CALL THEMSELVES COMMUNIST. and im like North Korea Calls its self Democratic. and they're like ":cursing:" *ban*

I think these kinds of people are just not possible to have a normal discussion concerning this. Just the fact that they say "China is communist" because "they call themselves communist" (in reality, the party in control calls itself communist but they call their present economic model "socialism with chinese characteristics") is enough to tell someone they are probably to thick to waste time on.