Would you date a transsexual even though you consider yourself 'straight?'

[Dejavu]

Discuss.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

That would require someone to take that kind of interest in me in the first place. :lol:

[Revy]

The title assumes that the person responding to the thread would be straight.

I guess it's a personal preference. I don't think someone is bigoted for not wanting to unless they freak out and get all transphobic about it.

[Pogue]

Do you mean would I go out with someone who identifies as a woman but has the physical features of a man, or would I go out with someone who was post-op female but used to be male?

[Dejavu]

Do you mean would I go out with someone who identifies as a woman but has the physical features of a man, or would I go out with someone who was post-op female but used to be male?

Either or.

[pastradamus]

No

[Pogue]

Well if they were physically male but felt female I wouldn't be sexually attracted to them and that plays a big part obviously so no.

I couldn't judge post-op because how attracted I'd be to someone would vary. Presumably you could not notice if they didn't tell you, so you know, in that case, I would.

[New Tet]

In questions of sex, I consider myself somewhat conservative. But to be fair, if a person likes someone who is a transsexual, more power to 'em! I suppose there are many healthy ways to obtain happiness. Who are we to stand in their way, right?

When I was little, I was what people considered a "cute" child. Women of all ages would stop and stare at me or comment to my mother "Oh what a beautiful boy you have there!" Some of my earliest memories are of ladies bending over and petting me like a dog while I stared at their cleavages. It got to the point where I expected some compliment whenever I'd go out with my mother or one of my sisters. Imagine how disappointed I'd be whenever none was forthcoming!

I guess that's why I like women so much; they lavish undeserved praise on the cutest brats.

But seriously, I am attracted to women who were born women (physically and mentally) and who possess a certain amount of femininity. I like assertive women with whom I can occasionally engage in discussion about things outside of the immediate personal. I like all women but have a preference for those who fit my own subjective opinion of beauty.

I am a white Hispanic but since I was very young, I liked women of African descent; for me to feel attracted to a white woman she has to be uncommonly beautiful.

My dear old mom was very pretty when she was young so maybe that conditioned my preference. Also, she's always been an avid reader and a lover of fine literature. That must explain why I'm unusually attracted to women who like to read.

Not having engaged in sex with a man, I can only speak of sex with females, but since my experience has been good, why change?

Sex is perhaps my favorite interpersonal activity: It's the only thing I can do without fucking up.

[War Cry]

I think the really question here is, do you think you'd know? I think that's where people will uncover their sexist and transphobic notions of femininity and womanhood.

[Ovi]

Not being homophobic/transphobic doesn't mean you have to fuck a homosexual/transsexual. It means to consider them equal to you. Attraction is a different thing

[Cooler Reds Will Prevail]

No

Agreed. People can feel whatever they want about their gender identification and they can do what they want about it, but I have no interest in dating a woman that feels like a man.

[War Cry]

Agreed. People can feel whatever they want about their gender identification and they can do what they want about it, but I have no interest in dating a woman that feels like a man.

And there you go. Both of you have decided that you'd be able to tell that someone was born a man based of of your assumptions of gender, womanhood, and femininity. I've been with transpeople before. They don't feel different. They feel like women. They are women. And what, exactly, does a woman feel like anyways?

Please, launch into a evolutionary psychology rant about the physiological and psychological differences between males & females. You know you want to. It'll be fun. Like a romp in freshly fallen snow. We can even bring in Freud.

[LOLseph Stalin]

Love is love no matter what.

[War Cry]

Not being homophobic/transphobic doesn't mean you have to fuck a homosexual/transsexual. It means to consider them equal to you. Attraction is a different thing

And you're right. You don't have to be attracted to the same gender to not be homophobic. But if you're straight, and you meet a woman you think is extremely attractive, and she turns out to be trans, does that make her somehow less attractive? And why?

Usually that question becomes extremely uncomfortable for people socialized as males. I can almost guarantee at one point in your life, you found a trans woman attractive and didn't realize she was trans.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

And there you go. Both of you have decided that you'd be able to tell that someone was born a man based of of your assumptions of gender, womanhood, and femininity. I've been with transpeople before. They don't feel different. They feel like women. They are women. And what, exactly, does a woman feel like anyways?

To be fair, I read Culture...'s post as referring to a biological female that identified as male (a transman who hadn't had surgery). In which case they would feel like a man, but it'd probably be possible to spot they weren't physically male.

[New Tet]

[...]And what, exactly, does a woman feel like anyways?

A woman of the female gender feels very good, thank you.

[New Tet]

And you're right. You don't have to be attracted to the same gender to not be homophobic. But if you're straight, and you meet a woman you think is extremely attractive, and she turns out to be trans, does that make her somehow less attractive? And why?

I'd probably feel cheated.

[War Cry]

Oh, I'm quite aware. I'm remarking on the fact that every woman feels different, and I don't think that you can say someone "feels like a man" or "feels like a woman." I've been with men who feel more "feminine" than women I've been with and women who feel more "masculine" than men I've been with. Its interesting that I don't have the language to describe it in non-gendered terms and I'm remarking on the use of gendered terms, but hell. I hope you understand what I'm getting at.

[War Cry]

To be fair, I read Culture...'s post as referring to a biological female that identified as male (a transman who hadn't had surgery). In which case they would feel like a man, but it'd probably be possible to spot they weren't physically male.

For the sake of this discussion, could we try and seperate language referring to sex & gender? Female/male are words referring to someone's biological sex. Man/woman is for gender. Saying that being with a woman that feels like a man translates to me as a trans woman who feels like the "man" she was previous to transitioning.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

The film M. Butterfly challenges this viewpoint. Cronenberg tackles the issue in a very progressive manner, expressing the same viewpoint as SolidarityWithIran, Pogue, WarCry and myself. It is an interesting discussion. As SolidarityWithIran said if you were in love with a person and it turned out they used to be a male then I do not think it would matter to you. I have thought about it myself and I don't think It would alter my viewpoint of them at all.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

I must have missed that in the shuffle. The question stands as is though. I'm more remarking on post-op transfolk on hormones. People who have fully transitioned to their identified gender.
Hmmm. As an abstract concept, I'm fine with it; in terms of completely irrational, unjustifiable reactions, it's hard to say whether you'll have them or not without actually being in that situation.

[New Tet]

Oh, I'm quite aware. I'm remarking on the fact that every woman feels different, and I don't think that you can say someone "feels like a man" or "feels like a woman." I've been with men who feel more "feminine" than women I've been with and women who feel more "masculine" than men I've been with. Its interesting that I don't have the language to describe it in non-gendered terms and I'm remarking on the use of gendered terms, but hell. I hope you understand what I'm getting at.

Is it possible to discuss the issue you raised without "gendered" terms? Maybe.

I recall hearing the famous sexologist Dr. Ruth say that 90% of our sexuality is in the mind. Maybe that's true. And maybe that makes your argument correct inasmuch as if one were with a transgender person and not know it, it would make no difference at all. Unlike you, I can't speak from experience there but I can assert confidently that what I have experienced of sex has been good and I feel no need to justify it. I suppose you don't either.

[Cooler Reds Will Prevail]

To be fair, I read Culture...'s post as referring to a biological female that identified as male (a transman who hadn't had surgery). In which case they would feel like a man, but it'd probably be possible to spot they weren't physically male.

Thanks for clearing this up, this is what I was referring to.

[Il Medico]

Yes.

[scarletghoul]

If they're just male who is female inside or whatever then no. But if theyre post-op then that really depends on how well done the operation was, lol

[War Cry]

And maybe that makes your argument correct inasmuch as if one were with a transgender person and not know it, it would make no difference at all.

I guess I don't understand why it would make a difference if you did know. I respect your sexual preferences and don't think that need to be attracted to anyone. Maybe it's because I'm having a hard time understanding the experience of being attracted to a certain group of people, because I've always just been attracted to everyone.

[Il Medico]

I guess I don't understand why it would make a difference if you did know. I respect your sexual preferences and don't think that need to be attracted to anyone. Maybe it's because I'm having a hard time understanding the experience of being attracted to a certain group of people, because I've always just been attracted to everyone.
I am glad I am not the only one who doesn't like or see the need for categories pertaining to sexuality. Bi, gay, straight all all just social constructs of our society, used to divide people and put them in boxes. Love the person for the person.
And New Tet, why would you feel "Cheated"?

[New Tet]

I guess I don't understand why it would make a difference if you did know. I respect your sexual preferences and don't think that need to be attracted to anyone. Maybe it's because I'm having a hard time understanding the experience of being attracted to a certain group of people, because I've always just been attracted to everyone.

Hey, I'm attracted to everyone too, just not in the same way.

But seriously, you make it sound as if my sexuality is a matter of choice. It isn't. I'm heterosexual because, because, er... Well, honestly, I don't know why.

Our sexual preferences probably aren't really a matter of personal choice; they are imposed on us by genetics and social conditioning. This leads me to conjecture that there probably are more than two sexualities: there's the standard, factory bought heterosexual, the custom shop homosexual and the guys who like get down and dirty with the pink plastic blowup dolls.

Just kidding (please, moderators that fuck blowup dolls, don't ban me!).

[War Cry]

Hey, I'm attracted to everyone too, just not in the same way.

But seriously, you make it sound as if my sexuality is a matter of choice. It isn't. I'm heterosexual because, because, er... Well, honestly, I don't know why.

Our sexual preferences probably aren't really a matter of personal choice; they are imposed on us by genetics and social conditioning. This leads me to conjecture that there probably are more than two sexualities: there's the standard, factory bought heterosexual, the custom shop homosexual and the guys who like get down and dirty with the pink plastic blowup dolls.

Just kidding (please, moderators that fuck blowup dolls, don't ban me!).

I don't think it's a matter of choice. That's same argument employed against gay folks in a terribly homophobic way. I'm not going to do that to straight people. That would be...disastrous. And hypocritical.

I don't want this to turn into a pointless conversation on whether or not straight people would date transsexuals, with simple yes or no answers. This conversation could be a hell of a lot more than that, including an engaging dialogue on gender, personal sexuality and how we view ourselves and the people around us. I'd rather it not just remain on the surface, which is why I'm asking such prodding questions. Its all about the why.

[Agrippa]

I am a heterosexual man who has been in love with transwomen on numerous occasions. I think it is very superficial of other heterosexual men on this thread to judge a woman's sex or gender based on what genitals she has. These people claim to be accepting and understanding, yet they still feel to content to tell other people whether or not transwomen are really women, and imply that it's "all in their head". Why would dating a transwoman surgically constructed vagina be a different experience than dating a "biological" woman, in any way? And why is the debate still framed within the context of women thinking they are men, or men thinking they are women, rather than the obvious fluidity of sex/gender.

[FreeFocus]

As others have stated, what people do is their business, but I would not date a transsexual. I suppose I risk attracting the attention of a restriction nazi by saying this, but while I can respect a transsexual person and all, I find transsexuality a bit odd. Anatomical sex developed to provide means of reproduction. Human society developed with this, so we have things such as the concept of gender and the like. If a person feels that they were born the "wrong" sex, it's their choice to get a sex change. If a person just wants to "escape the gender binary" or whatever, fine, that's their choice too. It's all just a bit weird, from a biological standpoint and also my subjective view.

Some people think we need to "smash the gender binary" and everything, or smash "biological limitations" like sex. Sure, people shouldn't be bound by social roles or what is expected of a man or a woman. But I'm not of the opinion that the concept of gender needs to be smashed or that sex should just be some fluid thing. Nonetheless, people can do what they want, that's part of freedom. My finding it all a bit odd doesn't mean I have to be transsexual or have relationships with trannsexuals, so my freedom isn't compromised any.

[fiddlesticks]

When I first saw the title of this thread my immediate reaction was no but upon further pondering I have decided that if I love the person than it would not matter, I'd date he/she with a big grin :)

[Agrippa]

while I can respect a transsexual person and all, I find transsexuality a bit odd.

Maybe it's just the superficially of the drag queen culture you find odd, or the concept of modern medical treatments such as animal hormones and sexual reconstruction surgery. These feelings exist among the trans-community, as well.


Anatomical sex developed to provide means of reproduction.

Yes, but not everyone's sexual anatomy looks like the male and female genitals in anatomical textbooks...what about people born with a penis and a vagina? What about women born without a fully-formed cervix and vagina, and are thus unable to be penetrated? What about folks with a three-inch penis that looks a lot like a clit, or a three-inch clit that looks a lot like a penis?


It's all just a bit weird, from a biological standpoint and also my subjective view.

Alright, let's just destroy everything that doesn't have an immediately obvious biological purpose. We can start with poetry, the decorative arts....


Some people think we need to "smash the gender binary" and everything, or smash "biological limitations" like sex.

Yes, and those people are silly nihilistic post-modernists. But none of that changes the very real physiological and social existence of third-gendered/gender-variant people.


Sure, people shouldn't be bound by social roles or what is expected of a man or a woman. But I'm not of the opinion that the concept of gender needs to be smashed or that sex should just be some fluid thing.

It's not a matter of how gender should be a fluid thing. It's a matter of hermaphrodites/transfolk as a real physiological and social group, just like deaf people, blacks, etc.


Nonetheless, people can do what they want, that's part of freedom. My finding it all a bit odd doesn't mean I have to be transsexual or have relationships with trannsexuals, so my freedom isn't compromised any.

No one is forcing you to sleep with trannies.

[Coggeh]

My girlfriend would kill me .

[Dr Mindbender]

i'd be interested if the naysayers could provide a reason for saying 'no'.

You cant say "because i want kids someday" because not all birth women are fertile.

The only other reason is blatant transphobia and you should be ashamed to think of yourself as a progressive.

[Il Medico]

When I first saw the title of this thread my immediate reaction was no but upon further pondering I have decided that if I love the person than it would not matter, I'd date he/she with a big grin :)
Why was your first reaction no? And I thought you didn't feel emotionally connected to women enough to date them, have you changed your mind on this note since we last spoke?

[fiddlesticks]

Why was your first reaction no? And I thought you didn't feel emotionally connected to women enough to date them, have you changed your mind on this note since we last spoke?


i thought no because in my head popped an image of trannies that isn't exactly true (i.e. jefree star or something like that) and I just dont find him to be remotely attractive. If the transexual was born a woman but ends upa man than there is hardly any relevance because she's most likely going to be rather masculine in her personality and appearance at that point, though my prior comment was a major generalization, i dont get along with most chicks, true, but that doesn't mean its impossible.

[Il Medico]

i thought no because in my head popped an image of trannies that isn't exactly true (i.e. jefree star or something like that) and I just dont find him to be remotely attractive. If the transexual was born a woman but ends upa man than there is hardly any relevance because she's most likely going to be rather masculine in her personality and appearance at that point, though my prior comment was a major generalization, i dont get along with most chicks, true, but that doesn't mean its impossible.
I have to agree about jeffee star, I don't find him attractive either. Wait until Noixon finds this, he shall go ape shit on us. :D As for women, I would assume that any Bi sexual woman or lesbian you would possibly date would have a slightly more boyish personality like you Camille. So, yeah, that was a major generaliztion, touchy people don't attack me.

[fiddlesticks]

I have to agree about jeffee star, I don't find him attractive either. Wait until Noixon finds this, he shall go ape shit on us. :D As for women, I would assume that any Bi sexual woman or lesbian you would possibly date would have a slightly more boyish personality like you Camille. So, yeah, that was a major generaliztion, touchy people don't attack me.


yep, we're a rare breed aha

[Redmau5]

i'd be interested if the naysayers could provide a reason for saying 'no'.

You cant say "because i want kids someday" because not all birth women are fertile.

The only other reason is blatant transphobia and you should be ashamed to think of yourself as a progressive.

So if people aren't attracted or they do not want to date transsexuals, they're automatically transphobic?

[Kukulofori]

I'm mtf, and for about 90% of you saying no, the answer is really yes. If you really fell for me or some other transwo/man, it really wouldn't matter. When the only info you have on the person is that they have a penis it's a bit different than when you're confronted with the situation for real.

[Dr Mindbender]

So if people aren't attracted or they do not want to date transsexuals, they're automatically transphobic?

There is no material basis for not being sexually attracted to a TS because they werent born female.

I think the trans-sceptics should watch this before they rule out the possibility of having a relationship with one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOki6S2ZlDo&feature=related

Can you tell the difference? I cant. In fact they're a hell of a lot more feminine that some birth girls i've met.

[Plagueround]

I think it is jumping the gun to assume that everyone who wouldn't date a transsexual is transphobic, and they shouldn't be forced to answer yes for fear of being labeled reactionary anymore than a man who is not attracted to other men should be label homophobic. Personally, I'd have no problem with it and would date a transsexual if I was interested in them, but I don't think it's as black and white as some of you are making it out to be.

[Dr Mindbender]

I think it is jumping the gun to assume that everyone who wouldn't date a transsexual is transphobic

I think you have to examine their reasons for feeling that way.

I think the 'ickyness' they feel stems from the same source as other forms of backward thought (homophobia being the prime one).

Considering the above video i posted, what good reason is there to reject a TS? For the reasons i've given already, i dont accept the birth argument, and i dont accept the cosmetic argument which is completely blown away by the gourgeous girls above.

[Plagueround]

I think you have to examine their reasons for feeling that way.


I agree. I was just discussing this with Mrs. Plagueround. I'll post more later as I have to go get food. ;)

[khad]

Can you tell the difference? I cant. In fact they're a hell of a lot more feminine that some birth girls i've met.
One, I'm not particularly turned on by stereotypical femininity. Two, it seems that many of those kathoeys are wearing pounds of makeup. In general, people tend to retain a "male" facial structure. Implants don't really do it for me either.

That said, I would not really be opposed to a relationship with a transsexual. I wish people would stop using the "lookit the hot chicks" argument with examples from a beauty pageant or other similarly gaudy displays of capitalist excess. That's just sexist.

[Dr Mindbender]

That said, I would not really be opposed to a relationship with a transsexual. I wish people would stop using the "lookit the hot chicks" argument with examples from a beauty pageant or other similarly gaudy displays of capitalist excess. That's just sexist.

The point i was making is that not all transexuals satisfy the broad shouldered, deep voiced, adam's appled stereotype that seems to be the pertinent theme of this thread.

That intent was not sexist, but it is transphobic and deeply ignorant to imply that aesthetics is legitimate grounds for ruling out dating a MtF TS.

[New Tet]

I don't think it's a matter of choice. That's same argument employed against gay folks in a terribly homophobic way. I'm not going to do that to straight people. That would be...disastrous. And hypocritical.

I can't imagine any reasonable person turning whatever I said into a homophobic rant. I'm simply saying that it's entirely possible that being gay, straight, bi, or transexual is all matter of genetic predisposition and societal forces. That is why before we knew more about genetics homosexuality was considered a mental or spiritual aberration, to the point that countless gay men and women have been victimized throughout history, first by religious assholes possibly denying their own natural impulses and later by clinicians with electroshock gadgets.


I don't want this to turn into a pointless conversation on whether or not straight people would date transsexuals, with simple yes or no answers.

I'm never very comfortable with test questions that require a simple "yes" or "no". Here's a better, though not infallible, way to test the veracity of a proposition: 5 4 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 4 5, Zero being the I-Don't-Know zone and five being the I-Have-Definite-Knowledge-About-It region. Five should be the least populated by enlightened people.


This conversation could be a hell of a lot more than that, including an engaging dialogue on gender, personal sexuality and how we view ourselves and the people around us. I'd rather it not just remain on the surface, which is why I'm asking such prodding questions. Its all about the why.

Prodding, yeah, I like prodding!

[FreeFocus]

There is no material basis for not being sexually attracted to a TS because they werent born female.

So you have to have a material basis for not being sexually attracted to someone? Are you attracted to all six billion people on the planet?

What defines a man and what defines a woman? Is it anatomy? If you change your anatomy, does that change your sex? The biological answer is that it is anatomy, and sex will not change - even if you have a sex change, you will still have either XX or XY.

Ultimately sex changes boil down to making you feel better about yourself and more comfortable (for the above reasons). Fine, that's legitimate. You shouldn't be persecuted for it - it's a personal decision. That doesn't mean that I should be attracted to you, willing to enter into an intimate relationship with you, or even that I have to acknowledge your view of your identity (not that I wouldn't respect it - I wouldn't have a choice).

[New Tet]

I guess I don't understand why it would make a difference if you did know. I respect your sexual preferences and don't think that need to be attracted to anyone. Maybe it's because I'm having a hard time understanding the experience of being attracted to a certain group of people, because I've always just been attracted to everyone.

In my case, the answer is simple: I like women for many reasons, not the least of which they have vaginas and uteri. That, my friend, is what makes women women (not to mention the moral, spiritual and intellectual force they exert on me and on the human family as a whole!). Aren't you glad you had a mother that carried you for nine months and gave you air to breathe? I am. For you and for me.

Likewise, I'm glad I had a father who carried and delivered the other half of the seed that came to be me. Boy, am I glad he was good shot!

You see, it takes people who like to consort with the opposite sex to reproduce people like me and like you. And as long as that continues there will never be a shortage of people like you and like me. And that's good, wouldn't you agree?

[Misanthrope]

If I'm physically and mentality attracted to them then yes.

[Le Libérer]

I really dont see what sexual attraction has to do with discrimination. I'm moving this to chitchat.

[New Tet]

I really dont see what sexual attraction has to do with discrimination. I'm moving this to chitchat.

But sexual attraction can be a topic related to the larger question of discrimination based on bigotry and prejudice. It depends, of course, on how we discuss it, no?

[RHIZOMES]

I guess if I'm attracted to them?

[Comrade B]

As much as I hate to admit it, I don't think, even if I were attracted to them, I would go through with it. I am still very much influenced by my peers.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

Maybe it's because I'm having a hard time understanding the experience of being attracted to a certain group of people, because I've always just been attracted to everyone.
Like, actually everyone? Including ugly people? That probably sounds really facetious, but there's a serious point there - if you're not literally attracted to everyone in the world, including incredibly ugly people and small children, you're attracted to certain sets of characteristics, and not to others. That's "the experience of being attracted to a certain group of people" right there.

It's all just a bit weird, from a biological standpoint and also my subjective view.

Biology is fucking insane in the first place. It's pretty much impossible to make it any weirder. It's just that we're more familiar with most of the craziness of biology.


No one is forcing you to sleep with trannies.
Nope, after the revolution people who don't sleep with trannies will definitely be sent to the gulag.

As for women, I would assume that any Bi sexual woman or lesbian you would possibly date would have a slightly more boyish personality like you Camille.
I'm surprised no-one else has mentioned this. Were you saying that that specific poster would only be attracted to boyish girls, or that bi girls/lesbians in general would be boyish?

So if people aren't attracted or they do not want to date transsexuals, they're automatically transphobic?
Can you give a good reason other than transphobia?

So you have to have a material basis for not being sexually attracted to someone? Are you attracted to all six billion people on the planet?
No, because some of them are unattractive. That is the material basis.

That doesn't mean that I should be attracted to you, willing to enter into an intimate relationship with you, or even that I have to acknowledge your view of your identity (not that I wouldn't respect it - I wouldn't have a choice).
This bit seems incredibly dodgy (although you do pretty much take it back with the bit in brackets). What does not acknowledging their view of their identity mean?


You see, it takes people who like to consort with the opposite sex to reproduce people like me and like you.
To be fair, being attracted to everyone does include the opposite sex. So the challenge is more to explain why we're not attracted to men.

[Killfacer]

Honestly i don't really care. I don't find myself physically attracted to men but there is no reason i would not date a woman who used to be a man. As long as there is attraction there i really couldn't give a damn.

[Bright Banana Beard]

If they are attraction and able to handle my emotion, then yes.

[Dust Bunnies]

If there is mutual attraction and all that stuff, yes, I would date one. I find it shallow to just not date or dump someone because "OMGZ THEY HAS A PENORZ!1!!1!1!".

[The Feral Underclass]

Well if they were physically male but felt female I wouldn't be sexually attracted to them and that plays a big part obviously so no.

I couldn't judge post-op because how attracted I'd be to someone would vary. Presumably you could not notice if they didn't tell you, so you know, in that case, I would.

You first say that you wouldn't go out with someone who looks like a man but identifies as a woman because you wouldn't be attracted to them, presumably because of their features, and then say that you wouldn't be attracted to the features of a woman if they told you they were a man.

If you're attracted to the features of a woman and you meet someone who has the features of a woman and you find attractive, why would it matter that they used to be a man, by your own standards?

[Pogue]

You first say that you wouldn't go out with someone who looks like a man but identifies as a woman because you wouldn't be attracted to them, presumably because of their features, and then say that you wouldn't be attracted to the features of a woman if they told you they were a man.

If you're attracted to the features of a woman and you meet someone who has the features of a woman and you find attractive, why would it matter that they used to be a man, by your own standards?

If they used to be a man it wouldn't bother me, because if you get a sex change operation so that your physical self matches your mental self, i.e. your sex matches your gender then your a woman to all intents and purposes, it doesn't matter what you once were.

[FreeFocus]

This bit seems incredibly dodgy (although you do pretty much take it back with the bit in brackets). What does not acknowledging their view of their identity mean?

I don't have to consider them a man or a woman just because they have a particular view of themselves, but I can't change their perception of themselves, nor would I try. That's what I meant.

[Sasha]

Would you date a transsexual even though you consider yourself 'straight?'

no, not when it would be an female to male trans unless i became an woman myself ;)

now the answer to the the question you where probily asking (and you misworded because you asumed all revleft users are male and all trans are male to female) if i was straight (wich i'm not) then yes i would date an woman that used to be an man, because i would be a straight man and its an woman and not an man (anymore), duh

[nuisance]

If I say no, will I be restricted?

[Misanthrope]

If I say no, will I be restricted?

No. Just as heterosexuals aren't restricted, silly!

[War Cry]

It seems like this conversation has divulged into a very pointless and circular discussion. I'm starting to wonder why it matters. I think that examining ingrained transphobic beliefs is extremely important, but why does it matter whether or not you'd date someone?

It's basically a yes or no question, and to be totally honest, I can't critique someone's sexual attraction to another person. I don't think it's fucked up to be attracted to a male and then not attracted to them once they've transitioned to a woman, if you're a straight woman. It's sad, and hard, but it's not someone's "fault" if they're not gay. Straight is just as acceptable as a sexuality as queer or gay.

Now, if someone has transitioned fully, someone is attracted to them (regardless of sexuality) and upon learning that they're trans somehow isn't anymore, I think that's probably based in some fucked up notions of what women/men "are" and "aren't." And that should be examined. But right now, in this discussion, it doesn't look like that's happened.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

No

[War Cry]

No

See what I mean? What political purpose does that answer serve? Irrelevant.

[Killfacer]

See what I mean? What political purpose does that answer serve? Irrelevant.

Hence why its in "chit chat" and not "discrimination".

[Charles Xavier]

No. I would personally find it too repulsive for me to be with someone to cut off their genitals and go through many different surgeries to do that, plus I am not attracted to my own Gender. Gender roles are something that should be fought, not biology.

[Il Medico]

No. I would personally find it too repulsive for me to be with someone to cut off their genitals and go through many different surgeries to do that, plus I am not attracted to my own Gender. Gender roles are something that should be fought, not biology.
So you find someone making their body match their mind repulsive? Do you also find (as you could be suggesting) that you in some way would be repulsed by non heterosexual sex? You don't have to be attracted to it or have any interest in it, I am not saying that. But what makes a woman who used to be biologically male not female? Their minds have always been such, and their bodies now match. Would the plain fact that someone used to be a different gender cancel your physical attraction? I doubt it, why would it? They are just as attractive as you found them when you thought they had always been male or female. I think this may focus around social conditioning about same sex relations. Even though they are now A, the fact that they used to be B makes you uncomfortable because of thought beliefs about gender and sexuality. It is not because you are not attracted to this person, but because of the social mores that have been brought up with hider you acceptance of your feelings. This is kinda similar to what many people go though when they figure out their sexuality. When you feel attraction to the same gender and you believe you shouldn't then you try to repress theses feelings, some even lash out. The same could be applied to finding out the good looking woman/man you've been dating used to be the other gender. Your first reaction may be to reject your original feelings for this person. Even to freak out, to lash out, to feel betrayed, to reject this person and find them "repulsive". This however, is not your real feelings, but rather a conditioned response to a social taboo.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

I don't have to consider them a man or a woman just because they have a particular view of themselves, but I can't change their perception of themselves, nor would I try. That's what I meant.
Why not? What higher, more important definition of "man" and "woman" are you using here? What makes you right and them wrong?

It seems like this conversation has divulged into a very pointless and circular discussion. I'm starting to wonder why it matters. I think that examining ingrained transphobic beliefs is extremely important, but why does it matter whether or not you'd date someone?

I see what you mean. But this conversation's interesting for revealing how fucking bigoted some people are, as seen here:

No. I would personally find it too repulsive for me to be with someone to cut off their genitals and go through many different surgeries to do that
Would you be willing to go out with someone who'd had a kidney transplant? Cos I can't see how a sex change operation is any more or less disgusting than being sliced open and having another person's organs placed inside you. What if you didn't know? Would a person you'd previously found attractive suddenly become repulsive because of something that'd happened in their past?

plus I am not attracted to my own Gender.
But they're not the same gender as you, so that's an utterly irrelevant point. Try again.

Gender roles are something that should be fought, not biology.
I agree that gender roles should be fought. So should biology, when necessary. Tuberculosis is both natural and biological, does that mean we shouldn't fight it?

[Charles Xavier]

Why not? What higher, more important definition of "man" and "woman" are you using here? What makes you right and them wrong?

I see what you mean. But this conversation's interesting for revealing how fucking bigoted some people are, as seen here:

Would you be willing to go out with someone who'd had a kidney transplant? Cos I can't see how a sex change operation is any more or less disgusting than being sliced open and having another person's organs placed inside you. What if you didn't know? Would a person you'd previously found attractive suddenly become repulsive because of something that'd happened in their past?

But they're not the same gender as you, so that's an utterly irrelevant point. Try again.

I agree that gender roles should be fought. So should biology, when necessary. Tuberculosis is both natural and biological, does that mean we shouldn't fight it?

Cosmetic surgery is not the same as surgical procedures needed for our survival.

[Killfacer]

Cosmetic surgery is not the same as surgical procedures needed for our survival.

oh you soldier you, i'm glad you're so dedicated to the survival of the human race. :rolleyes:

[Charles Xavier]

oh you soldier you, i'm glad you're so dedicated to the survival of the human race. :rolleyes:
Thanks.

[Pirate Utopian]

Cosmetic surgery is not the same as surgical procedures needed for our survival.
Fuck-a-doodle-doo.
As if everything needs to be for survival. Dont be so backwards.

[Il Medico]

Cosmetic surgery is not the same as surgical procedures needed for our survival.
Being one gender in your mind and another physically can have serious mental effects on people. To many Transsexuals the surgery is needed, and is by no means cosmetic. Stop comparing someone getting a sex change to a nose job!

[SoupIsGoodFood]

No. Its just not what I'm into. Can't that just be reason enough?

[Mala Tha Testa]

I more than likely would.
I haven't experienced the situation though, so I can't give a definite answer.

[Manifesto]

No since I would probably want kids and never know you could end up marrying them.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

Cosmetic surgery is not the same as surgical procedures needed for our survival.
But is it more repulsive, since that's what you're claiming? What about laser eye surgery - that's not needed for survival, since people are perfectly fine with glasses or contact lenses. Would you be repulsed by someone who'd had laser eye surgery? And how come you've not been restricted for transphobia yet?

No. Its just not what I'm into. Can't that just be reason enough?
What's it based on, tho? We're not talking about transwomen that look like men, we're talking about attractive people of the opposite gender. Why are you not into that?

[SoupIsGoodFood]

I'm just attracted to "natural" women I guess. I don't have a logical reason, its just what I like. I respect what you're attracted to, so I think you should respect what I'm attracted to, theres no hate involved its just what I like.

[Charles Xavier]

But is it more repulsive, since that's what you're claiming? What about laser eye surgery - that's not needed for survival, since people are perfectly fine with glasses or contact lenses. Would you be repulsed by someone who'd had laser eye surgery? And how come you've not been restricted for transphobia yet?

What's it based on, tho? We're not talking about transwomen that look like men, we're talking about attractive people of the opposite gender. Why are you not into that?
I am not afraid or discriminate against transgendered people. I am just not attracted to them and I explained the reason why. I'm sorry but why would I be restricted for not being a homosexual or unwilling to be transsexual's mate? I am also not attracted and unwilling to be in a relationship with someone who had liposuction, silicon implants, a face lift, a nose job unless it was because the nose was broken, or other such cosmetic surgery. Or people who have tattoos on their face and people with those disgusting earlobe mutilations from earrings.

[Skin_HeadBanger]

If I didn't know, I don't think I'd care. Not sure whether I would or not if I knew.

[Durruti's Ghost]

@ OP: Yes. As a straight male, I'd be perfectly willing to date an attractive, mtf transsexual. In fact, the courage that it would take for someone to be willing to so directly defy a bigoted societal norm would be exactly the sort of thing I would find extremely attractive.

[Kukulofori]

I really dont see what sexual attraction has to do with discrimination. I'm moving this to chitchat.

Well, I guess we can see where you stand on this question...

"would you refrain from (VERB) someone if they were (MINORITY)" is pretty clear and flagrant discrimination, and stuff we're going to have to confront and acknowledge if we want to overcome it.


go through many different surgeries

hey guess how many surgeries I've had.

0.
Personal pictures removed by Mujer Libre. Please do not post any personal pictures, as this is in violation of board rules.

[Ovi]

So if I don't discriminate against homosexuals, I have to be one too?

[The Ungovernable Farce]

I'm just attracted to "natural" women I guess. I don't have a logical reason, its just what I like.
But again, what makes you think you'd necessarily know? It's ok, I have weird illogical prejudices too, everyone does, but I think we should acknowledge the fact that they're illogical prejudices.

I am not afraid or discriminate against transgendered people. I am just not attracted to them and I explained the reason why.
And you called them repulsive.

I'm sorry but why would I be restricted for not being a homosexual?
No-one has suggested this. Don't make things up.

I am also not attracted and unwilling to be in a relationship with someone who had liposuction, silicon implants, a face lift, a nose job unless it was because the nose was broken, or other such cosmetic surgery.
What if you fell in love with someone, and then later found out they'd had liposuction before you met them? Would you break up with them because of that? How absurd.

So if I don't discriminate against homosexuals, I have to be one too?
No, but don't call them repulsive either. Besides, the reason you wouldn't go out with a gay man isn't because they're gay, it's because they're a man.

[Charles Xavier]

But again, what makes you think you'd necessarily know? It's ok, I have weird illogical prejudices too, everyone does, but I think we should acknowledge the fact that they're illogical prejudices.

And you called them repulsive.

No-one has suggested this. Don't make things up.

What if you fell in love with someone, and then later found out they'd had liposuction before you met them? Would you break up with them because of that? How absurd.

No, but don't call them repulsive either. Besides, the reason you wouldn't go out with a gay man isn't because they're gay, it's because they're a man.

I find the act of cutting one's genitals off disgusting. I would not date a unic either. I would not be able to wrap my head around that to engage in a romantic relationship. And I would not be in a relationship with a man because I am heterosexual and find women attractive and not men. I believe gender roles to be reestablished, women should be able to do what men do and men should be able to do what women do without changing their sex.

[Stand Your Ground]

No. There's nothing wrong with gays, bi's transgender etc. but I am NOT gay so NO.

[Dr Mindbender]

I am not afraid or discriminate against transgendered people. I am just not attracted to them and I explained the reason why.

If youre not transphobic then why the need to regard TS females and birth females as differently? It's rather sweeping to write off all TS's as unnattractive because as i've already shown, in a lot of cases they are aesthetically unseperable to birth females.

the bio-conservative programming in your mind is causing you to think of it as 'icky'.

[Dr Mindbender]

No. There's nothing wrong with gays, bi's transgender etc. but I am NOT gay so NO.

Going with a TS does not make you gay, you ignorant fuck.

[Stand Your Ground]

Going with a TS does not make you gay, you ignorant fuck.
It doesn't make you straight either. And I'm not ignorant so shut the fuck up.

[Dr Mindbender]

It doesn't make you straight either.
How doesnt it?

The only way it isnt straight is if you're applying the reactionary gender requisites and binaries, in which case you dont really belong on a progressive forum like this.


And I'm not ignorant so shut the fuck up.
The kind of shit above that you said is so i wont shut up.

It's attitudes like yours that sustain bourgeioise gender identification.

[Stand Your Ground]

How doesnt it?

The only way it isnt straight is if you're applying the reactionary gender requisites and binaries, in which case you dont really belong on a progressive forum like this.

The kind of shit above that you said is so i wont shut up.

It's attitudes like yours that sustain bourgeioise gender identification.
Oh well. I stated my opinion, you don't like it? I don't care.

[Dr Mindbender]

Oh well. I stated my opinion, you don't like it? I don't care.

If you keep posting reactionary shit like this then the rest of the CC will care also.

[Charles Xavier]

If you keep posting reactionary shit like this then the rest of the CC will care also.


This isn't reactionary so stop your witch hunt.

[Stand Your Ground]

If you keep posting reactionary shit like this then the rest of the CC will care also.
Reactionary? What are you implying with that?

[Dr Mindbender]

This isn't reactionary so stop your witch hunt.

says the resident transphobe defender.

[Dr Mindbender]

Reactionary? What are you implying with that?

Im implying that you should stop tarring TS dating and being gay with the same 'i find this distasteful brush'.

[Charles Xavier]

Reactionary? What are you implying with that?
Ignore Ulster Socialist he is deadly wrong. You have nothing to worry about he is the one at fault here.

[Dr Mindbender]

You have nothing to worry about he is the one at fault here.
Yeah, im the one at fault cause i corrected a bigoted remark, pass me the happy pills.

[Killfacer]

It doesn't make you straight either. And I'm not ignorant so shut the fuck up.

of course it makes you straight you dumb ass. Male to female women who are post-op are no different from born females. The social conservatism of people on this site is slightly worrying.

[Stand Your Ground]

Ignore Ulster Socialist he is deadly wrong. You have nothing to worry about he is the one at fault here.
Thank you.


Yeah, im the one at fault cause i corrected a bigoted remark, pass me the happy pills.
What I said was not bigoted.


of course it makes you straight you dumb ass. Male to female women who are post-op are no different from born females. The social conservatism of people on this site is slightly worrying.
I disagree. If you're born a man, you'll always be a man.

Man + Transsexual female = Gay

It doesn't matter how anyone alters their appearance, they'll always be what they were born as.

[Dr Mindbender]

What I said was not bigoted.

We could contradict each other till we're blue in the mouth but the fact of the matter is what you said and are saying is transphobic and does no favours to the LGBT struggle.




I disagree. If you're born a man, you'll always be a man.

Man + Transsexual female = Gay

Well apparently, one of the most homophobic states in the world disagrees with you. In Iran, homosexuality is punishable by death yet male to MtF transexual relationships are tolerated. Still think it is gay?

How about you log back in when you know what you're talking about.



It doesn't matter how anyone alters their appearance, they'll always be what they were born as.

Yes, intelligent design, the birth form is sacred etc etc. God you make me sick.

[Stand Your Ground]

We could contradict each other till we're blue in the mouth but the fact of the matter is what you said and are saying is transphobic and does no favours to the LGBT struggle.

Well apparently, one of the most homophobic states in the world disagrees with you. In Iran, homosexuality is punishable by death yet male to MtF transexual relationships are tolerated. Still think it is gay?

How about you log back in when you know what you're talking about.

Yes, intelligent design, the birth form is sacred etc etc. God you make me sick.
It is not transphobic. I'm not a phobe of anyone or anything. If you knew me in real life you would know that.

Iran can think what it wants, Iran has it's opinion and I have mine. I can, and will think it's gay. Just because the laws of Iran are approval on some things and disapproval on others doesn't mean everyone in Iran feels the same way.

Good, I hope I make you vomit till you die of dehydration.

[Dr Mindbender]

It is not transphobic. I'm not a phobe of anyone or anything. If you knew me in real life you would know that.
Yet you still fail to legitimise your discriminative attitude towards TS's. Materially speaking there is no difference between a TS and a (sterile) birth female.

The only difference is the mental conditioning in your head that makes you think there is a difference.



Iran can think what it wants, Iran has it's opinion and I have mine. I can, and will think it's gay. Just because the laws of Iran are approval on some things and disapproval on others doesn't mean everyone in Iran feels the same way.
Perhaps, but if even the most reactionary bigots in central asia can overcome their transphobia it speaks volumes if you cant.



Good, I hope I make you vomit till you die of dehydration.

I hope you get beaten to death after walking into a transgender bar after giving your opinions.

[F9]

Quit the fucking die threats , especially you"AntiRacist"Faction, for starting this shit.I will issue warning points if you continue this crap.

[Stand Your Ground]

Yet you still fail to legitimise your discriminative attitude towards TS's. Materially speaking there is no difference between a TS and a (sterile) birth female.

The only difference is the mental conditioning in your head that makes you think there is a difference.

Perhaps, but if even the most reactionary bigots in central asia can overcome their transphobia it speaks volumes if you cant.

I hope you get beaten to death after walking into a transgender bar after giving your opinions.
You still fail to realize I am not discriminating. I would not treat them different then any other person so how am I discriminating?

If you say there is no difference that is your opinion, my opinion is there is a difference. I don't care if they got their private parts changed, they are what they were when they were born. If Susie wants a penis, fine, if she now wants me to call her a he I will, that doesn't mean to me that she is a man now.

[Stand Your Ground]

Quit the fucking die threats , especially you"AntiRacist"Faction, for starting this shit.I will issue warning points if you continue this crap.
How did I start this? I got targeted for expressing my opinion.

[F9]

As for the matter in hand, it isnt surprisingly that in the end a reactionary position got spread in here, and after lots of people with similar "ideas" saw that they arent alone and have huge supportive they continue it with no second thought.It is "natural" when this board filled with with hetersexual males(mostly young) some time this would happen, and now because its common you made transphobia "non prejudice" and your stupid words and ideas you keep supporting them.If the same words were said against others they would end up in no time in OI and possibly banned, and most of you would make the big anti-sexists, and feel offended..BULLSHIT
Most of you showed their true face now, where a prejudice has lots of support. The fact that lot of you support it dont makes it right.I cant wait justyfying religion, nationalism(wait this is already done) because lot people do...
This thread is just a prove that as much as some say that revleft is a different forum, really isnt, its just as any other forum.Just people usually hide their prejudices because it got to a point that if they dont they will get out of here.


Fuserg9:star:

[Dr Mindbender]

You still fail to realize I am not discriminating. I would not treat them different then any other person so how am I discriminating?

You're contradicting yourself because you said you regard birth women differently to post TS women (by not acknowledging their womanhood).

Its discrimination in precisely the same vein as saying ''i'm not racist but i wouldnt want to sleep with a black woman''.



If you say there is no difference that is your opinion, my opinion is there is a difference. I don't care if they got their private parts changed, they are what they were when they were born. If Susie wants a penis, fine, if she now wants me to call her a he I will, that doesn't mean to me that she is a man now.

You dont have a clue what youre on about.

Biological gender at time of birth does not dictate gender. End of story.

[F9]

How did I start this? I got targeted for expressing my opinion.

This is a fucking forum, of course and you will be targeted about your opinions!If you cant see either that hoping someone you dont even know to die is complete shit, and you compare it with the fact that he "targeted you for expressing your opinion" and dont see much difference, then i wonder in which fucking forum am i typing this now..

[Stand Your Ground]

Well if this topic seems to offend people it should be deleted if people can't express their opinions freely.

[Dr Mindbender]

Well if this topic seems to offend people it should be deleted if people can't express their opinions freely.

Its not about freedom of expression its more because transphobia has been overlooked for so long on this forum all of the idiots like you are coming out of the woodwork like fuserg has already said.

[Stand Your Ground]

What is so hard to understand? I AM NOT A TRANSPHOBE. I don't care if people get their parts changed.

:cursing::cursing::cursing:

[Dr Mindbender]

What is so hard to understand? I AM NOT A TRANSPHOBE. I don't care if people get their parts changed.

:cursing::cursing::cursing:

Evidently you do care otherwise you wouldnt see any difference between a TS female and a birth female.

Alright then, say for the sake of argument you come home to your girlfriend, and she undresses and says ''look sweetheart, ive had my tits removed and got a penis'' By your logic (s)he's still female so i take it you would stay with her then, yes?

[Stand Your Ground]

Evidently you do care otherwise you wouldnt see any difference between a TS female and a birth female.
Just because I see a difference doesn't mean I am discriminating.

Put it this way, conjure up whatever scenario you like, say there was 2 'females' that I had to choose for say, a job postion. If one was born a female and other had surgery to become a female, I would not look at that as anything to do with hiring qualifications. Just because someone had surgery, doesn't make them any more or less a person or make them any more or less capable of doing a job correctly. Does that clear it up for you?

[Dr Mindbender]

Put it this way, conjure up whatever scenario you like, say there was 2 'females' that I had to choose for say, a job postion. If one was born a female and other had surgery to become a female, I would not look at that as anything to do with hiring qualifications. Just because someone had surgery, doesn't make them any more or less a person or make them any more or less capable of doing a job correctly. Does that clear it up for you?

I dont care about who you would or wouldnt hire. You still see a difference between the two on a sexual level otherwise we wouldnt be having this debate. A racist may choose to hire a black woman (many did during the 1800's), but the fact he wouldnt sleep with her because of her skin colour still means he is racist. Likewise, you are transphobic because you wouldnt sleep with a woman on the basis of her birth gender.

[Stand Your Ground]

Evidently you do care otherwise you wouldnt see any difference between a TS female and a birth female.

Alright then, say for the sake of argument you come home to your girlfriend, and she undresses and says ''look sweetheart, ive had my tits removed and got a penis'' By your logic (s)he's still female so i take it you would stay with her then, yes?
How am I supposed to answer this...it's a trick question. If I say I'd leave her then I'm discriminating, right?

You would probly disagree but it's not a discriminating thing, relationships are different, if she was my girlfriend and got surgery I would leave because I don't want to have sex with anyone who has a penis, reguardless if you/she/me/anyone considers her now a man or still a fermale, I have the right to say I don't want a penis shoved in me.

[Dr Mindbender]

I have the right to say I don't want a penis shoved in me.

Oh dear, oh dear... :rolleyes:

I can tell you are a horribly immature heterosexual teenage boy with the false conceptions about sexuality to boot.

Not all gay men are obsessed with shoving their penises into each other, id advise you to tread carefully here.

[Stand Your Ground]

Well it's clear to me you still don't understand. So I'm done with this thread. Peace.

[Dr Mindbender]

Well it's clear to me you still don't understand. So I'm done with this thread. Peace.

whatever.

I'm going to hope you're leaving the thread somewhat wiser and less ignorant, but i won't hold out.

[Charles Xavier]

Oh dear, oh dear... :rolleyes:

I can tell you are a horribly immature heterosexual teenage boy with the false conceptions about sexuality to boot.
.

This is an example of flaming. Regardless of who may be wrong, this is the wrong thing to say. Be disrespectful and you will be disrespected.

[Jazzratt]

This is an example of flaming. Regardless of who may be wrong, this is the wrong thing to say. Be disrespectful and you will be disrespected.

Flaming bigoted peices of shit like that **** should be applauded.

[Killfacer]

This is an example of flaming. Regardless of who may be wrong, this is the wrong thing to say. Be disrespectful and you will be disrespected.

Well done, quote a reply to something vile and complain that it's flaming. Get a grip you fucking freak. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flaming_%28Internet%29)

[Janine Melnitz]

Anatomical sex developed to provide means of reproduction.
No it didn't.

It's all just a bit weird, from a biological standpoint
Biology doesn't have a "standpoint".

even if you have a sex change, you will still have either XX or XY.
Assuming you had either to begin with; barring technological advancement; ignoring the question of how sex was determined before the invention of microscopes.

what good reason is there to reject a TS?

Can you give a good reason other than transphobia?
There's no "good reason" to reject anyone. There's no good reason to be attracted to anyone. Both of you seem to have nebulously- and arbitrarily-defined sets of characteristics (mainly regarding "looks"?) which you think are the only valid factors in determining someone's "attractiveness"; this is idiotic; attraction doesn't work that way. In these matters, the shape of someone's ass has no more transcendental importance than their history with the Mafia. Attraction is never based on "sound reasoning", and it would be impossible to construct a justified system for determining what constitutes a reasonable boner.

By "reason" are you talking about whatever elements in one's psychosexual development have shaped one's desires? We've yet to reliably determine this sort of thing in any given individual, but the evidence strongly suggests that people can be turned on/off by exactly the same things for wildly different "reasons". When speculating on why a person's pussy dries up as soon as she finds out someone's trans, dominant ideology may be a leading suspect, but it's just one in a literally infinite lineup of possible biographical quirks, idiosyncratic beliefs and related preferences (e.g. "I want to have babies").

But this conversation's interesting for revealing how fucking bigoted some people are
True enough. Tupac is out of line -- nobody asked you which groups you consider "repulsive", dude -- but he's not hilariously, transparently homophobic like this AntiRacistFaction kid (who wants us all to know that he is NOT gay, he is NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT nobody asked shithead).

[SoupIsGoodFood]

But again, what makes you think you'd necessarily know? It's ok, I have weird illogical prejudices too, everyone does, but I think we should acknowledge the fact that they're illogical prejudices.


I guess its a prejudice, but only so far as that I am prejudiced against gay me n by not having sex with them. I would rather have sex with a woman who has always been a woman. Many people only want to have sex with blondes, brunettes, whites, blacks or asians. I am no more transphobic than these people are racist. its just a personal choice and attraction, thats what it comes down to for me.

[Il Medico]

Is it me or is Tupac and that AntiRacistfaction kid spouting off the same kinda of shit that got Jack restricted? This is really the one thing that has bothered me here. If your homophobic, racist, sexist, etc. You'll find yourself restricted or banned very quickly. Yet bigotry against transgenders is fairly common unfortunately and yet it takes a CC vote for these idiots to be restricted. Why is that?

[Il Medico]

I'm surprised no-one else has mentioned this. Were you saying that that specific poster would only be attracted to boyish girls, or that bi girls/lesbians in general would be boyish?

Fiddlesticks doen't like the female stereotypical personality. She prefers the male stereotypical personality. In a previous conversation we had (in real life so don't ask me to quote it) she said she didn't think she could date a woman because of their personalities. I was saying that most girls she would be in a relationship with have a more boyish personality anyways (otherwise she'd probably not find them attractive). Sorry if I worded it badly. :blushing:

[The Feral Underclass]

I disagree. If you're born a man, you'll always be a man.

First of all gender is a social construct. Secondly, within the confines of that construct there are various outcomes and it's not as simple as you are a born a man and therefore you are a man. There are women who are born with an XY chromosome and men who are born with an XX chromosome.

Some men have the chromosomal and hormonal basis to be a woman but are born with a different phenotype, causing them to have the wrong body. Medical research has shown that it is possible to literally be born the wrong sex. Gender realignment surgery exists to put back into order biological complications.

I suggest that you educate yourself on the science before you start making bold claims.


Man + Transsexual female = GayYour walking a very think line young man, and I suggest you take heed of what people have been saying in this thread and reflect on your attitude.


It doesn't matter how anyone alters their appearance, they'll always be what they were born as.That's not true either. It is now possible for male-to-female transexuals to have a uterus implanted into them and with the change in hormonal balance and gender realignment then it is very possible to change what you were born as.

But in any case, usually gender realignment surgery is actually changing someone into what they actually are from something they are not, so you're point is not only untrue, it's pretty redundent.

[The Feral Underclass]

I don't have to consider them a man or a woman just because they have a particular view of themselves

Yes you do.

[mel]

Well apparently, one of the most homophobic states in the world disagrees with you. In Iran, homosexuality is punishable by death yet male to MtF transexual relationships are tolerated. Still think it is gay?

I just had to address this, the reason that Iran has this policy is because they believe that any homosexual person is actually a woman because they are attracted to men, so the operation is tolerated. It's a great thing for real transexuals, but when everyone in your backwards reactionary country thinks that you're born the wrong sex if you're homosexual that's pretty terrible.

In short, they aren't okay with transexuality because they see it as different from homosexuality, but in fact because they see it as the same thing.

[Pogue]

T clarify my position on this, I would date a transexual yeh, but obviously it'd be judged on a case by case basis. If I found someone attractive then I find them attractive.

[*Viva La Revolucion*]

Considering yourself anything causes too much trouble and confusion, IMO. It's better to avoid labelling yourself and then, if you end up being attracted to a transsexual, you won't have to do the ''Wait, does that mean I'm still straight?'' thing. I'd also say that transsexuals are the gender they see themselves as being, so really they're no different from any other member of the opposite sex.

[Pogue]

Shouldn't this be moved to Discrimination?

[Janine Melnitz]

Yeah, it's funny that it was moved here because of which side of the resulting argument a mod happens to take

[mel]

I guess I should address the topic:

Personally I liked the response "my girlfriend would kill me", it rang pretty true for me, but on a more serious note I'm really not sure.

I know that if I were to date a MTF transexual person, they would have to be up-front with me about it. That's a pretty major thing in their life, and I would feel lied to if the person were to hide it from me, just as I'd feel lied to if a birth woman had hidden some major aspect of their life from me.

If they were up front about it, and I was attracted to them, then I might still date them. They would have to be post-op (which I think is reasonable) but honestly it's really a difficult thing to say having never been in that situation.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

True enough. Tupac is out of line -- nobody asked you which groups you consider "repulsive", dude -- but he's not hilariously, transparently homophobic like this AntiRacistFaction kid (who wants us all to know that he is NOT gay, he is NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT nobody asked shithead).
To be fair, I don't think he's homophobic as much as blatantly transphobic. He was kind of asked if he'd have sex with a transman, and not wanting to have sex with a man is perfectly reasonable. It's the part where he refuses to admit they're a man that's problematic.

I guess its a prejudice, but only so far as that I am prejudiced against gay men by not having sex with them.
But the analogy falls down. It'd be ridiculous to say you were prejudiced against gay men, because you wouldn't have sex with straight men either. In other words, you'd treat gay men the same as any other men, which is fine. But with this, you wouldn't treat transwomen the same as any other women, which is where the problem is.

[New Tet]

If they were up front about it, and I was attracted to them, then I might still date them. They would have to be post-op (which I think is reasonable) but honestly it's really a difficult thing to say having never been in that situation.

Fair enough. If ever I was in that unlikely position, I'd hate to lie next to someone holding a blood engorge penis that wasn't my own. It's just a matter of principle with me...

[The Essence Of Flame Is The Essence Of Change]

Ok ok ok...this thread has brought in a friggin' lot of flaming and some pretty stupid answers from both sides.Firstly let me clarify my stance.While I don't like labels as they are just human creations, I do consider myself straight as in I wouldn't date a man.I am not homophobic-I have gay friends but they just could never attract me.Now for the question, I do not know how far science can change women but for me what determines my sexual likes is nothing else by the hormones.Having said that I wouldn't mind dating a mtf transsexual if they seemed and felt feminine enough (feminine NOT as in cute and other stereotypical bullshit build by society) and simply if they DID NOT RADIATE TESTOSTERONE HEAVILY ANYMORE :D:P I don't know this is just the way I feel, if a post op transsexual had that I would have no problem.

Anyway's to the people who started attacking the people who said no, thats fucking stupid.Love or lust is not something you can easily base on principles and something like that would be wrong.There are factors that turn on or off certain people and most of them are psychological.That said I too believe that for an accepting society to work people must not find things such as a gender sex ''repulsive'' or ''weird'' but on the other hand calling them transphobic is the other edge.It still uncommon and thus natural repelling on first thought subcounsciouslly and even if people have managed to beat this on rational, counscious thought there is much more to what attracts someone to the subcounscious part of the brain-the subcounscious perception of things is the last to change even if though logic and your conscious dictate otherwise.An example:I'm insectophobic.Logically and materialistically such a stance is stupid and I aknowledge that yet I still crap myself when I wake up and a cockroach is sitting on my chest(EW EW EW).And what about people with sexual prefferences?People who have fetishes for women with short hair or for particullary tall women?Does that prefference over the rest make them racist?That's a really stupid arguement.In the end what makes you attracted to someone is subjective and you need to respect each person's right to choose for himself.Long story short, I'd hit whatever gave me a boner for A,B,C reasons and wouldn't stand to analyze it or judge it as wrong.:cool:After all this whole conversation is about appearance and physical attraction and there are many more things evolved into getting with someone than that.


Oh and by the way, to the guy who said that sexual anatomy and sex have been designed for reproduction and procreation: SUPRISE!People are mostly laying out for pleasure the last thousands of years...

[SoupIsGoodFood]

But the analogy falls down. It'd be ridiculous to say you were prejudiced against gay men, because you wouldn't have sex with straight men either. In other words, you'd treat gay men the same as any other men, which is fine. But with this, you wouldn't treat transwomen the same as any other women, which is where the problem is.

Well yeah, it is discrimination, simply because I am not attracted to trans people. But I would not have sex with a white or asian person either, simply because I am not attracted to women of those races. I don't think that makes me a racist, it just makes me a human being with sexual preferences. But when it comes down to it, I'll just file this one under "My girlfriend would kill me":D

[Trystan]

I do not know if I would date a transsexual, because I haven't met any transsexuals, and so obviously I don't know a transsexual who I could date . . . However, the transsexual thing wouldn't put me off if I did happen to meet a transsexual who I like.

[Dr Mindbender]

I do not know if I would date a transsexual, because I haven't met any transsexuals, and so obviously I don't know a transsexual who I could date . . . However, the transsexual thing wouldn't put me off if I did happen to meet a transsexual who I like.

Theres no difference between a birth woman and a TS that means they deserve to be differentiated or treated differently to each other (by that i mean up to and including regarding them as a potential sexual partner).

[Dr Mindbender]

Well yeah, it is discrimination, simply because I am not attracted to trans people. But I would not have sex with a white or asian person either, simply because I am not attracted to women of those races. I don't think that makes me a racist

excuse me, what?

[communard resolution]

Theres no difference between a birth woman and a TS that means they deserve to be differentiated or treated differently to each other (by that i mean up to and including regarding them as a potential sexual partner).

I'm sorry, but there are slight differences: firstly, TS women don't get wet and need to use lubricant for penetrative sex at all times. To what extent they are capable of experiencing an orgasm in general I don't know - the only TS person I personally know says she didn't have an orgasm since her operation (this includes masturbation). Of course, these things cause a bigger problem for the TS person and less for the potential partner.

To be a transsexual woman can be a huge psychological burden if my friend is anyone to go by. When looking for a partner, they find it hard to find straight men who are not psychologically prejudiced against them, no matter how attractive they may be physically or personally. So they sometimes end up denying their former identity and living in fear of being found out - this can lead to some very ugly scenes. The other choice they have are men who are attracted to transsexuals and frequent crossdresser/TS clubs to 'pull'. According to my friend, these men are often bad news (she uses stronger words) and at best will treat you as some sort of fetish rather than as a partner.

[SoupIsGoodFood]

excuse me, what?

I'm only attracted to women of certain races. Its just how I'm wired I guess.

[Dr Mindbender]

I'm sorry, but there are differences: firstly, TS women don't get wet and need to use lubricant for penetrative sex at all times.
Hardly a deal breaker in picking a girlfriend is it? Why does this small detail demean their sexual attractiveness?

Besides if someone has decided they want to have sex with someone in most cases they'll have made their mind up long before they get to the stage where that even becomes an appropriate subject of converstion.



To what extent they are capable of experiencing an orgasm in general I don't know - Actually they can- The end of penis is sewn back into the reconstructed vagina as a clitoris: with orgasm and all.

Besides which very few guys actually care if their women cum or not so don't play Mr Nice Guy.

[Dr Mindbender]

I'm only attracted to women of certain races. Its just how I'm wired I guess.

Why, do you find Asian and white women dirty or something?

I'm sorry i find that bizarre beyond belief.

[communard resolution]

Actually they can- The end of penis is sewn back into the reconstructed vagina as a clitoris: with orgasm and all.

Doesn't seem to work out every time judging by my friend's experience.


Besides which very few guys actually care if their women cum or not so don't play Mr Nice Guy

Hold your horses - I explicitly said this includes masturbation and poses a bigger problem to TS people than to their lovers. Besides, you don't know anything about my sexual identity, sexual preferences, or sexual behaviour. Please don't make any assumptions.

[SoupIsGoodFood]

Why, do you find Asian and white women dirty or something?

I'm sorry i find that bizarre beyond belief.

Its just what I'm into I guess. I don't find them dirty or look down on them, I just am not attracted to them. Same with transsexuals.

[Pogue]

Why, do you find Asian and white women dirty or something?

I'm sorry i find that bizarre beyond belief.

Yeh I've seen a few people with this position and I find it absurd.

[khad]

Why, do you find Asian and white women dirty or something?

I'm sorry i find that bizarre beyond belief.
I can understand marrying within your own community for political reasons. There are real concerns about dissolving ethnic groups' power in the face of the white power structure. Also, it seems that more than a few white folks who date non-white minorities have all sorts of racialized sexual fetishes--a large part of white supremacy is the presumed sexual availability of "other" women. For these reasons I'm fairly tolerant of statements made by minority groups about dating in their own community.

However, the way soup talked about it is quite bizarre.

[FreeFocus]

Yes you do.

Excuse you? Surely an anarchist shouldn't be talking about forcing a person to acknowledge or believe something.

Let's say an ethnic African decided to get plastic surgery to alter their features and bleached their skin because they wanted to be considered "white" - does everyone have to acknowledge that and agree with it? Personally, I wouldn't, despite how they felt about it. That's not to say I would deny them human rights. Likewise, some may take the same approach to transsexuals. They may not respect their request on a personal level to be considered the other sex, but that's not denying them human rights because in a socialist society, no group would have the social power to deny them their rights.

If, on the off chance a commune decided to discriminate against them, the transsexual community could dissociate from the main commune.

[SoupIsGoodFood]

I'm just saying I'm attracted to darker skinned latina or black girls. How is that weird?

[Pogue]

Excuse you? Surely an anarchist shouldn't be talking about forcing a person to acknowledge or believe something.

Let's say an ethnic African decided to get plastic surgery to alter their features and bleached their skin because they wanted to be considered "white" - does everyone have to acknowledge that and agree with it? Personally, I wouldn't, despite how they felt about it. That's not to say I would deny them human rights. Likewise, some may take the same approach to transsexuals. They may not respect their request on a personal level to be considered the other sex, but that's not denying them human rights because in a socialist society, no group would have the social power to deny them their rights.

If, on the off chance a commune decided to discriminate against them, the transsexual community could dissociate from the main commune.

But we're talking about things grounded in science. We can prove someone has literally been born the wrong gender and this obviously has serious emotional implications, especially in regard to relationships and sexual intimacy which are a serious part of human existence. If you could prove the same basis for being born the wrong 'colour' (and seeing as race is a social construct i don't see how you could) then I'm sure people here would support it, but as I said you never will because race is a social construct that doesn't have sexual/emotional connotations i.e. being physically attracted to people, genuinely feeling female despite having male sexual organs, etc.

[khad]

Excuse you? Surely an anarchist shouldn't be talking about forcing a person to acknowledge or believe something.

Let's say an ethnic African decided to get plastic surgery to alter their features and bleached their skin because they wanted to be considered "white" - does everyone have to acknowledge that and agree with it? Personally, I wouldn't, despite how they felt about it. That's not to say I would deny them human rights. Likewise, some may take the same approach to transsexuals. They may not respect their request on a personal level to be considered the other sex, but that's not denying them human rights because in a socialist society, no group would have the social power to deny them their rights.

If, on the off chance a commune decided to discriminate against them, the transsexual community could dissociate from the main commune.

I've always stated that the transsexual phenomenon is conditioned by larger social forces like constricting gender roles. And for that I've been bashed by some for being transphobic, though I've never once labeled transsexuals unnatural or disgusting and even said I was open to dating one. The nature of self-hate psychology manifesting itself as the result of social influences is something that some don't want to accept on account of dogmatic adherence to the principle of absolute freedom of choice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm9pEWIPjks

[SoupIsGoodFood]

I can understand marrying within your own community for political reasons. There are real concerns about dissolving ethnic groups' power in the face of the white power structure. Also, it seems that more than a few white folks who date non-white minorities have all sorts of racialized sexual fetishes--a large part of white supremacy is the presumed sexual availability of "other" women. For these reasons I'm fairly tolerant of statements made by minority groups about dating in their own community.

However, the way soup talked about it is quite bizarre.


Haha, theres actually nothing about preserving my "race" in my attraction. In the same way you might be attracted to blondes or brunettes, I'm attracted to dark haired women with dark skin. Again, maybe I'm just tweaked or some shit, but I fail to see how it's "weird", it's just what I'm in to.

[khad]

Haha, theres actually nothing about preserving my "race" in my attraction. In the same way you might be attracted to blondes or brunettes, I'm attracted to dark haired women with dark skin. Again, maybe I'm just tweaked or some shit, but I fail to see how it's "weird", it's just what I'm in to.
Kid, I just gave you a way out, but you didn't take it.

[SoupIsGoodFood]

My bad, I guess?

[communard resolution]

First off, I defend the right of people to change their biological sex and not be discriminated against for their choice 100% - it's nobody's business but theirs.

Secondly, I'm afraid that the notion of 'being born in the wrong body' may be a myth along similar lines as having been 'born gay' or 'born straight' is probably a myth born out of the perceived necessity to justify one's identity. I don't really believe anyone is born anything, and that environmental factors, upbringing, and personal experiences are everything and determine a person's identity. In this respect, khad may have a point when he claims that there is a connection between the 'transsexual phenomenon' and restrictive gender roles in our societies.

To be 'born a woman in a male body' or vice versa - how is that supposed to work? Is there some kind of 'female soul' or 'male soul' that just happens to pop in the wrong body sometimes? I don't believe there is anything intrinsic that makes one identify as male or female. You're born 'neutral' - and are shaped one way or the other later on.

To avoid being misunderstood, I feel the need to repeat that I am 100% opposed to any kind of discrimination (not to mention that I love my one TS friend to death). It is completely unacceptable to me that anyone would deny them the right to be what they are on the grounds of them being 'unnatural'. If humans do it - it's natural. If it doesn't hurt others - it's good.

EDIT - I'm a bit surprised how everybody on revleft seems to have tons of TS friends every time this topic crops up... I should mention I only really know one TS person (and have met some of her TS friends only very briefly), therefore my understanding of the 'phenomenon' may be limited.

[Pogue]

So you deny people are born gay, Nero?

[mel]

So you deny people are born gay, Nero?

I'd say nobody really knows yet, and the only reason people insist one way or the other on it is because making it something 'from birth' is necessary in order for people with certain sexual orientations to justify it in a society that is largely not accepting.

Would it change anything at all if homosexuality was a choice? I don't see how it would or why that matters.

[communard resolution]

So you deny people are born gay, Nero?

Yes, I deny people are born gay, and I deny people are born straight. I can't be sure, but that's what I think.

I believe the myth that some are 'born gay' while others are 'born straight' originated in the USA out of gay people's perceived need to justify one's sexual identity to a society in which Christianity plays a huge role. "If God made me like that, it's not my choice, and therefore not a sin".

Don't get me wrong - I do not believe homosexuality is a choice.

[Pogue]

So how do you explain people who are gay from as young as they can remember? And the fact it exists in all animal species?

[communard resolution]

Would it change anything at all if homosexuality was a choice? I don't see how it would or why that matters.

Yes, I agree with this 100%. I don't believe it is a choice, and I don't believe it's intrinsic. I believe you acquire a certain sexuality through experience.

But even if it was a choice, there would be absolutely nothing wrong with it. Neither should the question whether sex changes are 'wrong' concern anyone other than TS people themselves.

[Pogue]

Yes, I agree with this 100%. I don't believe it is a choice, and I don't believe it's intrinsic. I believe you acquire a certain sexuality through experience.

But even if it was a choice, there would be absolutely nothing wrong with it. Neither should the question whether sex changes are 'wrong' concern anyone other than TS people themselves.

Oncemore, what about animals, and people who are gay from the beginning?

[SoupIsGoodFood]

I know that I was born straight and could never "choose" to be gay, I would imagine gay people were born gay and could not choose to be straight.

[communard resolution]

So how do you explain people who are gay from as young as they can remember?

Because nothing in their environments ever shaped them in a way that they would feel attraction to the opposite sex.


And the fact it exists in all animal species?

Funny you would mention that - only recently have I read about a gay male penguin couple in a zoo that split up when one of them left its partner for a female penguin. But in general, we shouldn't really apply 'animal determinism' because humans differ from animals in ceratin respects.

However, many people switch from same sex to opposite sex attraction (or vice versa) at different stages in their lives without necessarily being 'bisexual'. Sexualities are not fixed, and I see sexuality as a continuum ranging from 'gay' to 'straight' with all shades in between, and never 100% rock solid.

For reasons that are beyond me, society expects from us to assume fixed sexual identities, identify with labels such as 'gay' and 'straight', and act accordingly. Hence people's perceived need to justify themselves by claiming they were born a certain way.

[Pogue]

Because nothing in their environments ever shaped them in a way that they would feel attraction to the opposite sex.



Funny you would mention that - only recently have I read about a gay male penguin couple in a zoo that split up when one of them left its partner for a female penguin. But in general, we shouldn't really apply 'animal determinism' because humans differ from animals in ceratin respects.

However, many people switch from same sex to opposite sex attraction (or vice versa) at different stages in their lives without necessarily being 'bisexual'. Sexualities are not fixed, and I see sexuality as a continuum ranging from 'gay' to 'straight' with all shades in between, and never 100% rock solid.

Unfortunately, heterosexist society expects from us to assume fixed sexual identities, identify with labels such as 'gay' and 'straight', and act accordingly. Hence people's perceived need to justify themselves by claiming they were born a certain way.

I'm sorry but what evidence do you base this on? It just seems you've settled on the opinion it doesn't come about naturally despite the fact all evidence goes against this.

[communard resolution]

I'm sorry but what evidence do you base this on? It just seems you've settled on the opinion it doesn't come about naturally despite the fact all evidence goes against this.

I'm basing this on no evidence other than my own humble observations in life as well as putting one and one together as far as American society is concerned. As I said, I cannot be sure, though I believe it to be true.

So what is the evidence that goes against this?

[Pogue]

I'm basing this on no evidence other than my own humble observations in life as well as putting one and one together as far as American society is concerned. As I said, I cannot be sure, though I believe it to be true.

So what is the evidence that goes against this?


Oncemore, homosexuality in all species, the fact people brought up without ever being exposed to homosexuality are gay throughout their whole lives, the fact they never want to change...

[communard resolution]

Oncemore, homosexuality in all species

How does homosexuality in all species prove that people (or animals) are born gay or straight? As far as I'm concerned, it only proves that homosexual animals exist.


the fact people brought up without ever being exposed to homosexuality are gay throughout their whole lives

Children have all kinds of polymorphously perverse (not a negative term) sexual fantasies which are triggered by various stimuli. They don't need to be 'exposed to homosexuality' or 'exposed to heterosexuality' such as watching people fucking. An innocent touch from your aunt or uncle, a nude picture in your parent's medicine book, close frienship with your playground friend of the same/opposite sex... all this can contribute to shaping your sexuality, not to mention things that influence you before you are old enough to remember them. Normally, people don't remember things that happened before they were 4 years old.


the fact they never want to change

And yet they may. And either way, it doesn't say anything about them being born gay or straight.

[OneNamedNameLess]

I'm just saying I'm attracted to darker skinned latina or black girls. How is that weird?

It's not weird. Everyone has different tastes. Personally I don't find really thin girls attractive but wouldn't rule out a relationship with one if we hit it off.

Why are other users complaining that this is bizarre? Is it bizarre that homosexuals are not attracted to women or that straight men and women are not attracted to the same sex? No. It's a personal sexual preference just like soup's.

[Jazzratt]

EDIT - I'm a bit surprised how everybody on revleft seems to have tons of TS friends every time this topic crops up...

Not me I'm afraid, I'm stuck fumbling blindly for the answers, going from what I've read and everything.

[Janine Melnitz]

EDIT - I'm a bit surprised how everybody on revleft seems to have tons of TS friends every time this topic crops up... I should mention I only really know one TS person (and have met some of her TS friends only very briefly), therefore my understanding of the 'phenomenon' may be limited.
Really? It's not that surprising to me, probably because it doesn't look like "tons", at least not in this thread; transsexuals aren't such a vanishingly rare breed, and obviously they'd be much more common in a leftist's social circle than a "conservative"s.

It is surprising, though, that anyone, on either side of these arguments, thinks "I have a friend" means anything. You're right; the "understanding" one can gain from the personal testimony of a few friends is worthless. It's also unnecessary: any idiot knows what an insult looks like, you don't need to be one of the insulted. It only takes a tiny amount of research to learn about another group's circumstances, and barely any thought at all to see that they might be difficult, even if they're nothing like yours. People hostile to the interests of the marginalized or oppressed may disavow this knowledge, but look at the hysterical fears they exhibit whenever such groups get even vaguely organized: the pending Obama victory had racists terrified that "their" cities would be burned down, whites would be lynched etc., precisely because they knew perfectly well that black people had plenty to be mad about.

[War Cry]

Captain Jack was right, this thread did get pretty disgusting.

I'd like to address some of the incorrect information posted as fact in this thread. First off, whoever said that TS folks can't experience orgasm and don't get wet is really, really, really, really wrong. There are only four doctors that perform sex change operations in the states. There are three different ways to do it. It's actually rare that someone will be unable to orgasm after a sex change operation.

Second of all, the classic "I have gay/black/trans friends" does not and never has exempted people from being racist, homophobic and transphobic.

What bothers me the most about this thread is its all based on the belief that someone would be able to tell. Goddamn it, you can't tell. That's why trans issues are so pervasive, is because they're invisible larger society. You're only going to know if they chose to tell you. The reason why most people on this thread probably don't have a lot of experiences with trans people is because they didn't trust them enough to tell them they were trans.

[Pogue]

Saying **** is not sexist.

The rest of your post was spot on.

[War Cry]

Fine, Pogue, don't call someone a **** because I like that word, and I'd rather not see it used as an insult. Could you accommodate me personally, if not theoretically?

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I'm not straight. I don't think I could date a post-op m2f any more than a cisgendered woman. To put it bluntly, I like penis way too much. What ever works for whoever, they should go for it.

[communard resolution]

First off, whoever said that TS folks can't experience orgasm and don't get wet is really, really, really, really wrong.

I said that, and I based the information on the one transsexual person I know. She doesn't get wet. Full stop. Maybe she's the only transsexual in the world not to, but I honestly don't believe that.

Out of confusion over your statement, I just googled it:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Do_transsexuals_get_wet

It says they get wet after a while. Unfortunately, my friend has never been as lucky as to experience this, and her (main) operation occurred some 7 years ago.


There are only four doctors that perform sex change operations in the states.There are three different ways to do it. It's actually rare that someone will be unable to orgasm after a sex change operation. She had it done in Thailand since that was a lot cheaper. She hasn't experienced orgasm since the operation and she feels it's a tragedy. Maybe the doctor was a hack? Unlikely, since Thai specialists have a reputation of being particularly skilled in this area.

If it's true that it's rare they are unable to experience orgasm after the operation, as you claim, that's good.

But then you also claim:


What bothers me the most about this thread is its all based on the belief that someone would be able to tell. Goddamn it, you can't tellAnd that's not strictly true either, no matter how loud you shout it. With some TS people you can tell, with others you cannot.



Second of all, the classic "I have gay/black/trans friends" does not and never has exempted people from being racist, homophobic and transphobic. In principle, I agree - but since your post was largely a reply to mine, I assume you are referring to me. Now I'd like to know where I have been transphobic. I have explicitly stated more than once that I do NOT believe there is anything wrong with transsexuality and that I find any discrimination against this group completely unacceptable.

I have also said that the very question whether sex change operations are 'right' or 'wrong' should not be a concern to anyone but TS people themselves.

I have referred to a few problems that TS people face - and I have great sympathies for them. At the same time, I've emphasised that I'm basing my statements on my friendship with one TS person and that my experience is therefore limited.


Maybe I just misunderstood your post, and you were in fact referring to someone else. In which case, please let me know.


EDIT: I originally stated my friend had her sex change done in Thailand because it was cheaper. I have just realised I rembered this wrongly. The main reason she had it done in Thailand was because as an American in the US, she had to undergo some sort of regular therapy/interrogation, at the end of which the doctor/councillor decided whether she fulfilled the psychological criteria to undergo a sex change. In other words, she was at the mercy of a man who judged whether she was a "real" transsexual and "a woman born in a male body" or not. She did not get the green light. So she went to Thailand where such an assessment was not required.

In Thailand, by the way, and apparently in some other far east countries, transsexuals do not experience the same stigma in society as in most Western countries. The reasons for this I do not know.

To claim that you "just can't tell" that someone is transsexual is not only to apply wishful thinking, but effectively also to gloss over the very real problems that transsexuals experience in a transphobic society, such as for instance very poor employment opportunities when it comes to jobs that require from employees to deal with clients face to face. I'm sorry to say it, but in many cases you CAN tell because the results of sex change operations and hormone treatment are frequently nowhere near as perfect as the TS person desires them to be. This can be an extremely traumatic thing for TS people to realise. However good your intentions, it's not helpful in any way to pretend that these problems do not exist.

[communard resolution]

transsexuals aren't such a vanishingly rare breed, and obviously they'd be much more common in a leftist's social circle than a "conservative"s.

Transsexuals are to my experience indeed a vanishingly rare breed in 'leftist social circles', and if I didn't spend a lot of my time outside those leftist circles to begin with - i.e. in largely 'apolitical' environments - I doubt I would have ever met my TS friend. Not to mention that neither she nor her TS friends take the slightest interest in radical left politics or 'leftist circles'.

Such wishful thinking is unfortunately fairly typical for the radical left: we have the most egalitarian theories about you, therefore you should all flock to us. The truth is, they don't.

So they're not really so "obviously more common in leftist circles", at least not to my personal experience. Hence my surprise.

[Janine Melnitz]

Transsexuals are to my experience indeed a vanishingly rare breed in 'leftist social circles'
And I could "counter" that by talking about the people I hang out with but all arguments from personal experience are reactionary and bad, as I mentioned in that post.

and if I didn't spend a lot of my time outside those leftist circles to begin with - i.e. in largely 'apolitical' environments
FFS I wasn't talking about Hoxhaist party meetings or Anarchist drum circles. If you had to guess, how many people in these "apolitical" environments would you say voted McCain? A social circle full of queers is well left-of-center almost by default.

So they're not really so "obviously more common in leftist circles"
Are you illiterate? You're leaving out "...than in a 'conservative's". This doesn't rest on personal privileged experience, it's common fucking sense.

[communard resolution]

FFS I wasn't talking about Hoxhaist party meetings or Anarchist drum circles. If you had to guess, how many people in these "apolitical" environments would you say voted McCain?

The people in these apolitical environments range from apathetic-liberal through apathetic-conservative as far as their mindsets, but most of them don't bother to vote.

Besides, you said 'leftist' before - now it's 'left of centre'. Two different things in my book, but maybe that's just a question of usage.


A social circle full of queers is well left-of-center almost by default.I disagree. There is nothing inherently progressive or leftist about one's sexual orientation or gender identity/gender history. You'll find right-wing queers as well as left-wing queers. You will also find queer-tolerant right-wingers and queer-bashing leftists.

Don't forget that not every right-winger is necessarily a fascist who hates everything that walks. A right-winger may support the free market, 'love their country', have a pro-capitalist, libertarian mindset... and not be prejudiced against anybody at all. That's pretty much the political position of my TS friend, by the way, but then you don't like real life examples since they are reactionary.

So no, not left-of-center by default - nonsense.


Are you illiterate? You're leaving out "...than in a 'conservative's". This doesn't rest on personal privileged experience, it's common fucking sense.This bit contains an unnecessary ad hominem as well as flaming and therfore doesn't deserve a reply at all.

[rosie]

A woman dating a woman who identifies as a man (post op) is in a straight relationship in my opinion. (and vice-versa). If it is pre-op, I would say because the sexual organs are both the same, it is a gay relationship. Unless the trans person LIVES as the opposite gender, then it would be a straight relationship. And I would date a transsexual. Nothing would please me more (maybe a hermaphordite would be more pleasing...the best of both worlds!)

[rosie]

The people in these apolitical environments range from apathetic-liberal through apathetic-conservative as far as their mindsets, but most of them don't bother to vote.

Besides, you said 'leftist' before - now it's 'left of centre'. Two different things in my book, but maybe that's just a question of usage.

I disagree. There is nothing inherently progressive or leftist about one's sexual orientation or gender identity/gender history. You'll find right-wing queers as well as left-wing queers. You will also find queer-tolerant right-wingers and queer-bashing leftists.

Don't forget that not every right-winger is necessarily a fascist who hates everything that walks. A right-winger may support the free market, 'love their country', have a pro-capitalist, libertarian mindset... and not be prejudiced against anybody at all. That's pretty much the political position of my TS friend, by the way, but then you don't like real life examples since they are reactionary.

So no, not left-of-center by default - nonsense.

This bit contains an unnecessary ad hominem as well as flaming and therfore doesn't deserve a reply at all.

To both of you, and everyone else!!!!! People are people. Individuals are going to believe different theories and philosophies. There is no way you can generalize what politics someone follows or identifies with based on thier sexuality. There are so many right wingers that are openly gay. There are a lot of liberals that are anti-gay. A lot of leftists that are homophobic. Not to say that everyone fits these descriptions, but there are always the few that break the mold. Human beings are far too complex to make such broad generalizations. Logical fallicy! Generalizations have no place in a formal debate.

[Ciarán (A)]

If I found her to be attractive and/or especially intriguing, then yes, I probably would.

[Janine Melnitz]

Besides, you said 'leftist' before - now it's 'left of centre'.
Sorry I was unclear -- by "leftist social circles" I meant the social circles that a leftist, someone on this board, might move in. Generally not composed entirely, or even mostly, of hardline communists if you have any social life at all; generally however also lacking in Birchers, BNPers, Republicans, Tories or even self-described "moderates", all of whom are empirically more likely to be transphobic than those "left of center".

I disagree. There is nothing inherently progressive or leftist about one's sexual orientation or gender identity/gender history.
Inherently? Who says there is? I wasn't talking about internal logical necessity, but empirical social fact. In most social contexts, the right is openly anti-queer; queers are thus pushed leftward.

Don't forget that not every right-winger is necessarily a fascist who hates everything that walks.
Who was talking about "every" member of any group? You were talking about what's common or not, "surprising" or unsurprising; these are observations based on general trends, not on absolute universals. Do you seriously deny that sexual bigotry is, in the actual concrete world, strongly correlated with right-wing politics? Countless polls and surveys say it is.

That's pretty much the political position of my TS friend, by the way, but then you don't like real life examples since they are reactionary.
Don't be dense. The point of my post, the post that started this horribly stupid argument, the point you ignored in favor of an aside about the politics of queers, is that "examples" plucked from the tiny pool of one person's experience have little to do with "real life" for the rest of us. You have heard the phrase "anecdotal evidence", haven't you?

There is no way you can generalize
Sure there is! There is no way to talk about politics, about large-scale social phenomena, without generalizing. Will these generalizations stand you in good stead when dealing with random individuals from the group(s) in question? It goes without saying that they won't; but a "formal debate" (on RevLeft? lol) about society at large not only has a place for (empirically-based) generalizations, it cannot exist without them.

[War Cry]

Actually, Nero, the only part of my response directed at you was about orgasm and being able to get wet. The rest was a general response. If it was a direct response I would have quoted and dissected your post.

You can tell some transwomen are trans. However, usually people see the transwomen they can tell are trans and assume that is the entire population, which is what I'm responding to. There are more trans women who are entirely invisible then there are transwomen who are not. I've also never met a transman who'd gone on hormones that I could tell was trans. So I'll keep screaming about it, thanks all the same.

My point is, if you're attracted to a woman & find out she's trans three dates later, it seems sort of stupid to say that you wouldn't be attracted to her after that. You're still straight, she's still hot, what's the big deal?

I apologizes for the momentary American-centered response, there are more than four doctors who will perform sex change operations globally.

[communard resolution]

Actually, Nero, the only part of my response directed at you was about orgasm and being able to get wet. The rest was a general response. If it was a direct response I would have quoted and dissected your post.

OK, my apologies - I took it all as directed against me, including "transphobic", "disgusting" and the like. I misunderstood.

I'm pleased to hear that most transsexuals do get wet/orgasms and hope medicine will advance to the point where any such unfortunate accidents as happened to my friend can be ruled out. I'm not a social conservative - I wish you couldn't tell a TS person from a non-TS one.... like anyone sane, I want people to be happy.

Judging by my friend, however, and the small handful of friends she briefly introduced me to when she took me to a TS club night.. well yes, I'm afraid you can tell. I don't know about her friends (or anyone else who was in that club, for that matter), but my friend is doing the hormones thing. Imagine the disappointment when you find out that people can still tell... Depression and suicide rates are high among post-OP transsexuals, they have trouble finding employment, partners, friendship that is not largely based on some sort of interest in their 'condition', and so forth. None of which would obviously be the case if no one could tell the difference.


My point is, if you're attracted to a woman & find out she's trans three dates later, it seems sort of stupid to say that you wouldn't be attracted to her after that. You're still straight, she's still hot, what's the big deal? I agree, it shouldn't be a big deal. Unfortuately, to most men it is - which is why some transsexuals go in denial, and when they do get found out things can turn very ugly.


I apologizes for the momentary American-centered response, there are more than four doctors who will perform sex change operations globally.That's ok. I live in the UK and so does she, but she's originally from the States, so it did apply to her back then.

[communard resolution]

Don't be dense.Sorry, but you've disqualified yourself from receiving a proper response. I warned you about ad hominems in my previous post - end of discussion.

[communard resolution]

To both of you, and everyone else!!!!! People are people. Individuals are going to believe different theories and philosophies. There is no way you can generalize what politics someone follows or identifies with based on thier sexuality. There are so many right wingers that are openly gay. There are a lot of liberals that are anti-gay. A lot of leftists that are homophobic. Not to say that everyone fits these descriptions, but there are always the few that break the mold. Human beings are far too complex to make such broad generalizations. Logical fallicy! Generalizations have no place in a formal debate.

Of course. The world has bred its fair share of gay-bashing leftists - as far as I'm aware, homosexuality was a punishable crime in most so-called socialist countries from Cuba to the Soviet Union.

The world has also seen its fair share of homosexual right-wingers. Ernst Roehm and the SA elite around him are such an obvious historic example, I'm almost embarrassed to bring it up again.

As you say, human beings are far too complex for broad generalisations. This is why I sometimes think that socialists do need some form of identity politics or identity education because the fight against capitalism alone might not necessarily eliminate all bigotry. It looks like there are several other battles that need to be fought at the same time.

[War Cry]

I'm pleased to hear that most transsexuals do get wet/orgasms and hope medicine will advance to the point where any such unfortunate accidents as happened to my friend can be ruled out. I'm not a social conservative - I wish you couldn't tell a TS person from a non-TS one.... like anyone sane, I want people to be happy.

People who transition younger have an easier time passing. The rates of transfolks transitioning in their twenties is getting higher, now that trans issues have come more to the forefront. They're first generation, however. Many of the transpeople who are in their thirties or forties didn't transition until later in life because it hasn't been until recently that there are resources available to them. A lot of the people that I know that you would never be able to tell are trans are people who transitioned when they were in their early twenties.

You're right though, it's really difficult that bodies and bone structures do develop differently due to hormones throughout childhood and that isn't something that can be reversed. A community of acceptance would change things dramatically.


I agree, it shouldn't be a big deal. Unfortuately, to most men it is - which is why some transsexuals go in denial, and when they do get found out things can turn very ugly. Mostly it ends in murder.

[communard resolution]

People who transition younger have an easier time passing. The rates of transfolks transitioning in their twenties is getting higher, now that trans issues have come more to the forefront. They're first generation, however. Many of the transpeople who are in their thirties or forties didn't transition until later in life because it hasn't been until recently that there are resources available to them. A lot of the people that I know that you would never be able to tell are trans are people who transitioned when they were in their early twenties.

Fair enough. The person I know would have been about 30 when she had the OP.

[Chicano Shamrock]

i'd be interested if the naysayers could provide a reason for saying 'no'.

You cant say "because i want kids someday" because not all birth women are fertile.

The only other reason is blatant transphobia and you should be ashamed to think of yourself as a progressive.
My answer would be no because I don't want to. That is just my opinion and no one is going to guilt me into saying yes by calling me non-progressive.

I don't have a problem with what people do with their bodies and I support their ability to do it. I don't have to participate in it to be progressive though.

[Janine Melnitz]

You're still straight, she's still hot, what's the big deal?
Nobody read my post :(

[The Ungovernable Farce]

My answer would be no because I don't want to.
That's not an actual reason, tho. Why don't you want to?

[Dr Mindbender]

My answer would be no because I don't want to. That is just my opinion and no one is going to guilt me into saying yes by calling me non-progressive.

What the ungovernable farce says.

If you regard yourself as a 'progressive' why do you feel the necessity to draw a distinction between birth women and TS's then? There is no material basis to do so.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Of course. The world has bred its fair share of gay-bashing leftists - as far as I'm aware, homosexuality was a punishable crime in most so-called socialist countries from Cuba to the Soviet Union.

The world has also seen its fair share of homosexual right-wingers. Ernst Roehm and the SA elite around him are such an obvious historic example, I'm almost embarrassed to bring it up again.

As you say, human beings are far too complex for broad generalisations. This is why I sometimes think that socialists do need some form of identity politics or identity education because the fight against capitalism alone might not necessarily eliminate all bigotry. It looks like there are several other battles that need to be fought at the same time.

On this point I can kind of agree to a certain extent. If you take any group (well, almost any group. I think you'd have quite a difficult time finding good Nazis though I had a friend who was bigoted by ignorance and misinformation and had some fascistic tendencies until through getting to know me he did a 180 degree turn on that.) with in society, you can find good people and bad people. Every race, nationality, gender, sexual orientation, ect. has good people and idiots. There are some right-wingers that I know who, though I disagree with them on many things, are very nice people on a personal level. There have been left-wingers that I've known who are jerks on a personal level. The fact is people are more complex than being one or the other.

With that said, I think that the far right-wing likely has a much lower percentage of LGBT people amongst them, but that's based on what I've seen personally.

also, I do know of one transgendered person who was openly racist and used anti-mexican slurs towards me. But I've known several other transgendered people who were good people, and pretty left-wing. Just food for thought.

[BabylonHoruv]

I have. F2M I am a straight male.

It was strange, but he was the one who ended up breaking things off based on sexual preference. He prefers women.

The connection between us transcended gender, even if it did not transcend it fully enough for things to last.

[Killfacer]

My answer would be no because I don't want to. That is just my opinion and no one is going to guilt me into saying yes by calling me non-progressive.

I don't have a problem with what people do with their bodies and I support their ability to do it. I don't have to participate in it to be progressive though.

Be honest though, if there was a transgendered person who's physical appearence and personality you found attractive, would you actually refuse to "date" them?

[Dr Mindbender]

Be honest though, if there was a transgendered person who's physical appearence and personality you found attractive, would you actually refuse to "date" them?

He's probably one of those guys who would cough and wretch going ''you lied to me'' after discovering the true birth gender of the person in question.

I fucking hate transphobes like that.

[Killfacer]

I'd be suprised, no doubt about it but i wouldn't really care.

[bromide]

I'm with everyone who'd noted that they'd date someone who is trans if they were attracted to them. I've dated both men and women and I wouldn't have a problem dating someone who is trans, that sort of identifier has never really meant much to me personally.

I do think this question belongs more in chitchat though, because it wasn't framed to bring up transphobia and discrimination. Reframed, it could produce a valid discussion on discrimination. As it stands right now, the only way transphobia can be brought into it is if someone says that they're not personally attracted to transpeople and someone else calls them transphobic.

[SubcomandanteJames]

I would date them. If I wanted kids I would just adopt. And if I fell in love I would fall in love. So much worrying about proclaiming sexuality.

[Devrim]

He's probably one of those guys who would cough and wretch going ''you lied to me'' after discovering the true birth gender of the person in question.

I fucking hate transphobes like that.

Objecting to having been lied to does not make somebody transphobic.

Devrim

[Saorsa]

I wouldn't date a transexual, no. I don't find transexuals sexually attractive. Does this make me a transphobe? I don't think so, it's me exercising my right to choose who I do and don't sleep with. I support transexual rights, and operations should be provided free. But that doesn't mean I want to have sex with one and that does not make me a transphobe.

[pastradamus]

Not being homophobic/transphobic doesn't mean you have to fuck a homosexual/transsexual. It means to consider them equal to you. Attraction is a different thing

Thats spot on.

[Il Medico]

Thats spot on.
No it is way off. A transsexual refers to someone who is post op. (not their sexuality as homosexual does, thus the comprasion is crap) Meaning that they are both physically and mentally female (or in the FTM case male). For a straight person to not want to have sex with a transsexual based on the fact that they are transsexual (Wasn't born physically their current gender) is bigotry. The is no differnece between transsexual women and natural born women. The "I am not attracted to them line" is bollocks. (Same goes for the other way around, FTMs and straight/bi women who wouldn't date them based on them being Trans).

[Invariance]

No, a transsexual does not necessarily refer to someone who has undergone genital reassignment surgery.

[Cooler Reds Will Prevail]

I think it would kinda kill some of the fun of a relationship, I mean think about it... You could never say "You won't understand, it's a guy thing" because, uh, they know. So much for the easy cop out when you don't want to do something. :D

[The Ungovernable Farce]

Objecting to having been lied to does not make somebody transphobic.

True. But at what stage is it appropriate to tell someone? Actual lying would only take if you specifically asked them and they denied being trans; other than that, to avoid "lying", trans folk would have to introduce themselves to everyone with "Hi, I'm x, and I was born male (or female, or whatever)!" That doesn't sound particularly workable.

[Devrim]

True. But at what stage is it appropriate to tell someone? Actual lying would only take if you specifically asked them and they denied being trans; other than that, to avoid "lying", trans folk would have to introduce themselves to everyone with "Hi, I'm x, and I was born male (or female, or whatever)!" That doesn't sound particularly workable.

Well yes but you can also lie by omission. I don't know about you personally, but I tend to get to know people a bit before I jump into bed with them (This doesn't imply any criticism of people who don't). It is part of the process of learning about each other.

When you consider what a massive event it must be in somebody's life, I would say that it is quite a big thing to omit. I can imagine people feeling quite decieved by it.

Actually, the transexuals that I have met, at work, socialising, relatives of friends, have been quite up-front about it.

Devrim

[Pogue]

I don't think its so much that people should be obliged to mention it as to how someone could avoid mentioning it without trying to purposefully avoid it. If I was getting to know someone with the implication of a relationship I'd talk to them about themselves as a person and naturally them being transsexual would come up. I think its something most people would want to know at some point, but the idea of knowing it before or after sexual intercourse would not seem that absurd if you were the sort of person who didn't neccesarily make sex come after getting to know someone personally first.

[SubcomandanteJames]

I think there is inherent ridiculousness in the assertion of sexuality, because you're not attracted to "females", "males", or "both". You're attracted to the stereotypical image of what a male looks like, what a female looks like...

To say I'm attracted to males, but not females that look exactly like males, makes no sense to me. How can you be attracted to a sexual identity? It's the physical composition of a person that your attracted to... which could be stereotypical male, stereotypical female, or anywhere in between.

[Dr Mindbender]

Objecting to having been lied to does not make somebody transphobic.

Devrim

The point is it shouldnt matter to anyone but a narrow minded bigot.

Secondly, neglecting to tell someone information as opposed to giving conflicting information does not constitute lying.

[Mecha_Shiva]

But attraction is not just physical. It doesn't matter if they are perfectly transitioned and are a very attractive member of the opposite sex now. Some people just aren't attracted to the fact that they used to be the other sex. That does not mean that they think any lower of them, or they think of them as second class citizen, that is just something they can't get it up for. That does not make them transphobic. Some people are in to it and some people aren't. If they meet someone really awesome, I would hope they could get over it, but if they can't then that's their call.

[Dr Mindbender]

But attraction is not just physical. It doesn't matter if they are perfectly transitioned and are a very attractive member of the opposite sex now. Some people just aren't attracted to the fact that they used to be the other sex.

From a material perspective, i think you have to examine the reasons behind that and ask how much it really matters.

To me, the 'ickyness' involved in intimacy associated with a former member of the same sex stems from the same source as other backward sexual attitudes like homophobia and once upon a time, mixed race relationships.

[Devrim]

The point is it shouldnt matter to anyone but a narrow minded bigot.

Secondly, neglecting to tell someone information as opposed to giving conflicting information does not constitute lying.

I think that you can lie by omission and I think that the lying itself would be enough to matter to many people. Surely people want a relationship based on trust. How can you have that when people have decived you about something so fundemental to who they are?

Devrim

[Dr Mindbender]

I think that you can lie by omission and I think that the lying itself would be enough to matter to many people. Surely people want a relationship based on trust. How can you have that when people have decived you about something so fundemental to who they are?


Well it all boils down to the issue regarding people's attitudes towards TS's and how much birth gender actually matters. I'd like to think that
members of a socially progressive society would be advanced enough to regard birth gender as a ridiculous basis for choosing one's sexual partner.

[Devrim]

Well it all boils down to the issue regarding people's attitudes towards TS's and how much birth gender actually matters. I'd like to think that
members of a socially progressive society would be advanced enough to regard birth gender as a ridiculous basis for choosing one's sexual partner.

I would like to think that people would have less of an obsession about the criteria that others use in choosing a sexual partner.

Transexualism is for most people something strange and unknown. I live in Turkey, where one could be expected to meet more transexuals, and also in a massive city, of course I have seen lots of them about, but have only ever met three, as far as I know, in a work/social setting.

Of course people are a little scared/uncomfortable with it, and people shouting loudly that you must be prepared to have sexual relationships with these people and not descriminate, which is effectivly what you are doing, does nothing, in my opinion, to change that, and I would imagine actually contributes to making it worse.

Personally, I don't think that we live in a socially progressive society. We are, as Lenin put it, "up to the neck in the shit of capitalism". I believe that this society is actually deeply reactionary, and that this of course has an effect on the people that live within in it.

Just because people carry some deep psychological scares from their past does not mean that they can not be revolutionaries and communist militants. It certainly doesn't mean that they should be restricted from posting on message boards discussing socialist ideas, and this is what annoys me about your recent campaign to get people restricted.

I would imagine that the almost all male members* of our organisation in Turkey are 'homophobic' if homophobia means having a fear of homosexuals. If it means somebody who would descriminate against homosexuals, I would say that none of them are.

In fact I had a long conversation about this issue with a comrade a few weeks ago. He feels that the homosexual act is disgusting. He actually feels guilty about feeling that it is disgusting and worries about it. That doesn't stop him feeling it though. Are you suggesting that people like this should be restricted for 'homophobia'?

This disregards all of the issues about transexuals and birth gender, but I am not so interested in discussing that point. It may be interesting to discuss it with you in person, but in many ways I don't think that RevLeft is a mature enough place to do it in public. What bothers me about this issue is that it seems like yet another campaign to restrict people.

Devrim

*On a personal level I am not, but I wouldn't be even slightly surprised if I was the only one.

[Janine Melnitz]

It's the physical composition of a person that your attracted to...
God damn it nobody read my post :crying:

Why is everyone insisting that this is true? I'll accept that it's true for you, and I don't think there's anything wrong with it, but really: who but a sixteen-year-old boy could insist that it's always, necessarily true of everyone that no (properly sexual) attraction could ever stem from (or be thwarted by) learning of someone's taste in music, or political orientation, or job or religion or personal history or favorite food or capacity to procreate? Do you really think these kinds of sexual attraction are outlandish or fake? Do you know what it's like to be an alive language-using human?

I mean I'm not even invested in or fiercely opposed to your attempts at proving that not wanting to fuck a TS is transphobic, really, go ahead and make that argument, but stop basing it on this assertion, for Christ's sake, please. It is a dumb and offensive idea!

[*Viva La Revolucion*]

I would imagine that the almost all male members* of our organisation in Turkey are 'homophobic' if homophobia means having a fear of homosexuals. If it means somebody who would descriminate against homosexuals, I would say that none of them are.

In fact I had a long conversation about this issue with a comrade a few weeks ago. He feels that the homosexual act is disgusting. He actually feels guilty about feeling that it is disgusting and worries about it. That doesn't stop him feeling it though. Are you suggesting that people like this should be restricted for 'homophobia'?

See, I don't understand that. How can they fear - actually be afraid of - the fact that two humans with the same genitals can love each other and have a sexual relationship? That's almost as bad as actively discriminating against homosexuals, and it's not a healthy way to feel about any type of relationship.

OK, I accept that your friend is probably a good person with good intentions, but at the same time I do think he is homophobic. It's like someone being disgusted by black people - feeling guilty about it doesn't take away the fact that he shouldn't be having those feelings. I would have no problem if he was indifferent towards homosexual acts, but the word you used was disgusted. There's quite a difference.

[Janine Melnitz]

See, I don't understand that. How can they fear - actually be afraid of - the fact that two humans with the same genitals can love each other and have a sexual relationship?
By being raised in a patriarchal and homophobic society.

That's almost as bad as actively discriminating against homosexuals
Fucking of course it isn't. Getting a weird vibe from your lover's outwardly-friendly parents isn't "almost as bad" as getting fagbashed in an alleyway, or even as being turned down for a job. That is mental, come on. Politics is not about people's personal private stupidities, even if the latter are about politics.

[*Viva La Revolucion*]

I was raised in a patriarchal and homphobic environment, too. I'll admit that society shapes a person's thoughts and feelings, but not everyone has to conform to that way of thinking. I don't see how, with logic, those emotional responses to homosexuality can't be challenged.

We're talking about fear and disgust, not getting a 'weird vibe' from anyone. It is often fear and strong emotions that lead to violence. And I don't know why we're discussing what politics is and isn't about in a thread that doesn't claim to be about politics.

[deLarge]

I consider myself 'straight' insofar as I am more attracted to women than to men, but seeing as how I am not repulsed in the least by men (as well as gay sex, for that matter), I would probably be fine with dating a transexual.

[mel]

I was raised in a patriarchal and homphobic environment, too. I'll admit that society shapes a person's thoughts and feelings, but not everyone has to conform to that way of thinking. I don't see how, with logic, those emotional responses to homosexuality can't be challenged.

We're talking about fear and disgust, not getting a 'weird vibe' from anyone. It is often fear and strong emotions that lead to violence. And I don't know why we're discussing what politics is and isn't about in a thread that doesn't claim to be about politics.

Everyone responds to their environment differently. I don't think a person can change their initial, gut reactions to things, they can only recognize their irrationality as a personal shortcoming and do what is in their power to make sure that such gut reactions do not influence their decisions.

[Janine Melnitz]

I don't see how, with logic, those emotional responses to homosexuality can't be challenged.
They can, of course, but (also of course) accepting a logical argument is not the same as banishing your own emotional responses.

We're talking about fear and disgust, not getting a 'weird vibe' from anyone.
Such a "vibe" is usually the result of fear and disgust. And fear and disgust are not the same as acts (including verbal ones) of aggression or discrimination. If someone refrains from such acts, it's very likely that their fear/disgust won't be a problem in the future for anyone but themselves.

And I don't know why we're discussing what politics is and isn't about in a thread that doesn't claim to be about politics.
Because once you get on someone's tits about being discriminatory, or "almost as bad" as someone who is discriminatory, you have entered the realm of politics.

[Invariance]

Personally, it wouldn't matter to me & I'm fairly confident of that, although I've never dated a transsexual nor had sex with a transsexual (of course, I could be mistaken but I am fairly positive). Maybe because I'm bisexual it matters less to me. I try and love people for who they are, which isn't just limited to what they look like or what genitalia they possess, but their personality, their warmth as a human being and how they make me feel as a person.

[*Viva La Revolucion*]

They can, of course, but (also of course) accepting a logical argument is not the same as banishing your own emotional responses.

Fair enough, but I still find it difficult to see how anybody could have those responses after they'd been educated about homosexuality and gender issues. I understand the difference between accepting something on an intellectual level but not on an emotional one, however, it's still a problem to feel like that.


Such a "vibe" is usually the result of fear and disgust. And fear and disgust are not the same as acts (including verbal ones) of aggression or discrimination. If someone refrains from such acts, it's very likely that their fear/disgust won't be a problem in the future for anyone but themselves.

But fear and disgust can lead to acts of aggression. I think it is a problem to other people. For example, I can't imagine their children would feel very happy if they decided they were gay and knew that their parents felt disgusted by something they considered to be quite a large part of their identity. And gay friends, surely they could never feel completely comfortable knowing that they provoked such a strong, negative response.


Because once you get on someone's tits about being discriminatory, or "almost as bad" as someone who is discriminatory, you have entered the realm of politics.

Not necessarily. Whether thing X is ''less bad'' or ''almost as bad'' as thing Y is very subjective and it doesn't involve politics until it starts to affect laws and rights. Discrimination can be a political issue, but I don't think it is when it's being discussed in this context.

[mel]

Fair enough, but I still find it difficult to see how anybody could have those responses after they'd been educated about homosexuality and gender issues. I understand the difference between accepting something on an intellectual level but not on an emotional one, however, it's still a problem to feel like that.

One that I'm sure they're working on changing, to the best of their ability, but I don't think you can judge people on involuntary negative responses they have to things on an emotional level.


But fear and disgust can lead to acts of aggression. I think it is a problem to other people. For example, I can't imagine their children would feel very happy if they decided they were gay and knew that their parents felt disgusted by something they considered to be quite a large part of their identity. And gay friends, surely they could never feel completely comfortable knowing that they provoked such a strong, negative response.

I think their children would probably be able to understand that they're doing the best they can to change their feelings on the issue, and would also know that their parents raised them to have a healthier and more accepting attitude towards it.

[Janine Melnitz]

But fear and disgust can lead to acts of aggression.
A lot of things can, and I admit it's a judgment call as to what constitutes a threat worth worrying about. I'd still maintain that (to stay on-topic) not wanting to have sex with a TS doesn't really constitute a clear and present danger to the trans community.

And gay friends, surely they could never feel completely comfortable knowing that they provoked such a strong, negative response.
Well yeah, if you feel this way noticeably you probably don't have gay friends. That's unfortunate -- for you -- but doesn't preclude productive relationships as co-workers or comrades or anything.

Not necessarily. Whether thing X is ''less bad'' or ''almost as bad'' as thing Y is very subjective and it doesn't involve politics until it starts to affect laws and rights.
Oh, I guess that's a pretty important point of disagreement, I for sure don't think of politics as "laws and rights".

[Philosophical Materialist]

I'm a heterosexual male, and no I wouldn't arbitrarily exclude a woman for the reason that she is/has been transgendered.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Really, it's OK if you don't want to date a transsexual. But do you people have to be so fucking tactless when saying that?

[Dr Mindbender]

Really, it's OK if you don't want to date a transsexual.

I'd tend to disagree. By saying outright you dont want to date one purely on the basis of their transexuality completely disregards the gender self determination of TS's by partitioning them from birth females.
It's a completely reactionary mindset that must be dispensed with.

Besides, a lot of TS's are actually prettier than birth women so i dont see why the transsceptics make such a big deal of it.

[Janine Melnitz]

Besides, a lot of TS's are actually prettier than birth women so i dont see why the transsceptics make such a big deal of it.
Fucking hell

[Dr Mindbender]

Fucking hell


Well according to the naysayers here their insinuation is that aesthetics are their main reason for not wanting to date TS's. In, before anyone accuses me of sexism.

Sorry i should have added 'some birth women'.

[mel]

Well according to the naysayers here their insinuation is that aesthetics are their main reason for not wanting to date TS's.

I actually haven't seen that suggested more than perhaps a handful of times. Most of the time I believe it's you that's been suggesting that is the only possible reason that naysayers can have and attributing that to them.

Ultimately, I think that your entire argument so far is based on the demonstrably false assumption that there is absolutely no material difference between a birth woman and a woman who has undergone genital reassignment surgery. Unfortunately for transexuals, that simply isn't true. The technology is not there yet, and until it is, there are material reasons why someone might be attracted to a birth woman and not to a transexual woman (and I don't mean only aesthetic reasons)

[Janine Melnitz]

Well according to the naysayers here their insinuation is that aesthetics are their main reason for not wanting to date TS's. In, before anyone accuses me of sexism.I actually haven't seen that
Yeah, wtf. Ulster who are you even talking about/to

Also, US, sorry for the lack of explanation in my exasperated two-word post. You seem (judging by your response here and on my user comments) to think I was offended on behalf of bio-girls who were being implied less-attractive. This was indeed one gross thing about your post but, while I'm not sure where to start on them all, I wouldn't have started there. Probably with the fact that you seem to be willfully ignoring -- not refuting or even dismissing, but disregarding as if it had never been made -- a point I've had to make twice in this thread.

there are material reasons
Yeah, I'm not sure why I haven't said* how incredulous I am that "material" here is being used as a synonym for "tits and asses and ****s and hair length and a pretty face, y'know, shit a real straight man cares about". Worse than economism really.

*This is a lie, I know why: I haven't bothered because Ulster and the rest would simply continue to act like I haven't even posted anything

[Luís Henrique]

Would you date a transexual even though you consider yourself straight?

I would answer anyone who asks me that with two questions:

1. Are you a transexual?
2. Are you proposing yourself to me?

If the answer to any of these questions is no, them my answer to the original question is, it is not of your fucking business.

If the answer to both these questions is yes, then my answer to that person is not of the fucking business of anyone else.

Luís Henrique

[ls]

Really, it's OK if you don't want to date a transsexual. But do you people have to be so fucking tactless when saying that?

Really this is it.

Some posts have bad overtones in the way people are saying things too, it's not saying "don't be honest" it's saying don't be an insensitive twat about it.

Also, people comparing this to swearing are off their nuts. Having your identity assaulted in such a way is not the same as swearing at all, whatsoever. If you think most people will feel just as hurt by it, then that's preposterous.

[brigadista]

i dont know - it hasnt happenned

[Elly]

Ok, i don't post much, but there are two things that puzzle me in this thread.

First, it seems that in the title question "transsexual" seems to default to "transsexual women" and "straight" to straight men. Guess it has to do with some kind of forum demographics (and besides, can't homosexual people also be concerned by the question, actually?)

Second, the rhetoric of some guys who seem to think that if a trans woman doesn't say she's trans before sex (or dating, depends), well, she's lying, deceiptful, and so on (quite the usual transphobic rhetoric, actually) because obviously it's something very important. Well, maybe it's something very important to you, but it's your problem, and actually no, I don't think it's something that is necessarily really important for the trans person in question. Personally I am usually quite open about being trans, but if for one reason or the other this topic doesn't come into the discussion with one person, I'm not going to say "oh, before you kiss me you must imperatively know that I have a dirty secret". At least if it's someone I trust; if it is someone I suspect is going to be violent when he learns that, oh god, I'm a tranny, I actually avoid being in a relationship with him/her.

I mean, if I lose 40 kgs, I am not going to explain that "oh, before we have sex, you MUST know that I was fat before". I might tell that in a discussion about what it is to be fat, or to lose weight, or anything, but I don't feel the need to permanently wear some kind of pink triangle to warn people. (And, well, to continue the comparison with fatness, I think a thread called "hey guys, do you find fat girls fuckable?" might appear a bit more for what it is : that is, quite objectising and othering)

[mel]

Ok, i don't post much, but there are two things that puzzle me in this thread.

First, it seems that in the title question "transsexual" seems to default to "transsexual women" and "straight" to straight men. Guess it has to do with some kind of forum demographics (and besides, can't homosexual people also be concerned by the question, actually?)

Good point.


Second, the rhetoric of some guys who seem to think that if a trans woman doesn't say she's trans before sex (or dating, depends), well, she's lying, deceiptful, and so on (quite the usual transphobic rhetoric, actually) because obviously it's something very important. Well, maybe it's something very important to you, but it's your problem, and actually no, I don't think it's something that is necessarily really important for the trans person in question. Personally I am usually quite open about being trans, but if for one reason or the other this topic doesn't come into the discussion with one person, I'm not going to say "oh, before you kiss me you must imperatively know that I have a dirty secret". At least if it's someone I trust; if it is someone I suspect is going to be violent when he learns that, oh god, I'm a tranny, I actually avoid being in a relationship with him/her.

I think that honestly depends on how you go about the dating/sex thing. There are people who get to know people, ask them about their lives and their childhood, where they grew up and what their parents were like, etc. before hopping into bed with them. It's part of the process for some people. If a transexual during this "getting to know you" portion of the experience somehow managed to leave out the entire large portion of their life where they were getting horomone treatments and eventual genital reassignment surgery (a long and arduous process) and this came up at some point far later in the relationship, then the only way it could have happened was through deliberate ommission on their part. If somebody I was getting left out some huge portion of their life while I was directly asking them about their past, I'd sure feel lied to, and this doesn't just apply to transsexuals.

[RotStern]

No.

[SubcomandanteJames]

I would answer anyone who asks me that with two questions:

1. Are you a transexual?
2. Are you proposing yourself to me?

If the answer to any of these questions is no, them my answer to the original question is, it is not of your fucking business.

If the answer to both these questions is yes, then my answer to that person is not of the fucking business of anyone else.

Luís Henrique

Because, damn it, asking someone's personal opinion on a message board based around discussion is simply unacceptable, and simply NOT ANSWERING the thread wouldn't have sufficed! How dare the thread-starter try to force me to relinquish my personal business unto the masses of RevLeft!?

[Luís Henrique]

Because, damn it, asking someone's personal opinion on a message board based around discussion is simply unacceptable, and simply NOT ANSWERING the thread wouldn't have sufficed! How dare the thread-starter try to force me to relinquish my personal business unto the masses of RevLeft!?

Don't be a hypocrite. You know very well that the intent is to have people making comments like, "eeew, no", and them reporting them to the CC for restriction as homophobes.

Luís Henrique

[hugsandmarxism]

Sure, but I'd probably just pretend to myself she's been a lady all her life.

[SubcomandanteJames]

Don't be a hypocrite.

Nothing I said constitutes hypocrisy.


You know very well that the intent is to have people making comments like, "eeew, no", and them reporting them to the CC for restriction as homophobes.

I doubt it was as well though out as that, but if you are so worried about such a vast conspiracy of sorts, then state what your issue is or get off the thread. Saying "it's none of your fucking business" when the question wasn't directly asked to you isn't beneficial to answering the question, discussion, or even exposing the anti-homophobia, heterophobic dastardly underlying purpose of this thread.

[Luís Henrique]

Nothing I said constitutes hypocrisy.

The hipocrisy is in pretending this is a neutral, casual question, when it is not.


I doubt it was as well though out as that, but if you are so worried about such a vast conspiracy of sorts, then state what your issue is or get off the thread. Saying "it's none of your fucking business" when the question wasn't directly asked to you isn't beneficial to answering the question, discussion, or even exposing the anti-homophobia, heterophobic dastardly underlying purpose of this thread.

The fact remains, it is a personal question, not a political one. Why then is it asked in a poltical forum? Especially, in the "discrimination" forum, if the intent is not to mischaracterise a personal distate into discrimination, and, as such, as a bannable/restrictable offence?

If this question was honestly just an irrelevant discussion about personal taste, it would be in Chit-Chat (where it belongs).

And, no, it isn't a vast conspiracy, unless you believe that a few nuts in a message board qualify as "vast".

Luís Henrique