Is North Korea ruled good? [Archive]

LOLseph Stalin

20th July 2009, 23:21

I can't say it's much better than any other Capitalist country, but I blame alot of this on the Juche ideology which I hardly consider Communist. For one, the people are expected to hold complete obedience towards the party and its leader. There is a huge almost religious like personality cult based around the two Kims as a result. To me, this is just disgusting. Another big part of Juche is self-reliance which has led to the extreme isolation of DPRK. They feel they shouldn't have to rely on other countries, but part of this could be that no other country is willing to help them anyway since they're labelled as an "Axis of Evil". This of course could explain the militarism. Considering there was never a real agreement between the two koreas in 1953, the north still believes they're at war. This has encouraged them to build a large military and create a nuclear weapon program. As far as freedom for the people goes, I have to say there's very little. There's restricted mobility rights, the people must demostrate absolute loyalty(they are indoctrinated from a young age so that's usually not a problem). In order to keep the citizens indoctrinated it only makes sense that they would cut off access to the outside world. Tourism is also strictly regulated too.

gorillafuck

20th July 2009, 23:23

Well, aside from everything else, the leader passed power on to his son. That should be an indication that something is very wrong with the leadership there.

20th July 2009, 23:25

Fascist is a pretty "harsh" word, even i wouldnt use.
Though no, any "rule" cant be good, but it dont differs much with the other countrys rulers.

Fuserg9:star:

Stranger Than Paradise

20th July 2009, 23:26

Fascist is a pretty "harsh" word, even i wouldnt use.
Though no, any "rule" cant be good, but it dont differs much with the other countrys rulers.

Fuserg9:star:

Yes I was going to say that about using the word fascist. He is comparable to all other Capitalist leaders.

scarletghoul

20th July 2009, 23:28

Northern Korea (the "North/South" division was imposed by imperialists, so I refer to them as "northern/southern") is a monarchy.
lol "northern" is no differant from "north". both refer to geographical location of the DPRK.

And really, you don't seem to understand what a monarchy is

scarletghoul

20th July 2009, 23:30

North Korea gets the most stupid labels. Apparently it is a fascist stalinist monarchy.

anticap

20th July 2009, 23:31

There is a huge almost religious like personality cult based around the two Kims...

Right; the dead Kim fills the role of God, with the living Kim as his designated authority on Earth.

There's restricted mobility rights, the people must demostrate absolute loyalty...

Right; the serfs are tied to the land and must show fealty to its lord.

... the leader passed power on to his son.

Right; there's a name for systems with these features: monarchies.

Guerrilla22

20th July 2009, 23:31

what constitutes as "good"?

LOLseph Stalin

20th July 2009, 23:31

North Korea gets the most stupid labels. Apparently it is a fascist stalinist monarchy.

Well the power does get passed down through family so technically that is monarchist.

scarletghoul

20th July 2009, 23:36

LOLseph Stalin

20th July 2009, 23:36

Right; the dead Kim fills the role of God, with the living Kim as his designated authority on Earth.

Yes, last I checked Communists were generally against organized religion and religious policies in state affairs. I guess they use this as an excuse to replace it.

Right; the serfs are tied to the land and must show fealty to its lord.

I wouldn't really go as far as to call it serfdom as that is a lower class(I'm pretty sure everybody is in the same position except for the party which is above), but yes. You're placed on a collective farm and expected to stay there. Even the people in cities can't really go elsewhere.

anticap

20th July 2009, 23:37

lol "northern" is no differant from "north". both refer to geographical location of the DPRK.

No, the titles "North Korea" and "South Korea" are portrayed as semi-official shorthand for the names of states. This is propagated by the capitalist media for a reason.

And really, you don't seem to understand what a monarchy is

Nonsense; see my previous post. Monarchy is defined by a multitude of attributes, and northern Korea features several of them.

North Korea gets the most stupid labels. Apparently it is a fascist stalinist monarchy.

"Fascist" also has a definition (the go-to text being Mussolini's "Doctrine"), which doesn't fit northern Korea nearly as well as "monarchy" does.

"Stalinist" might have been more apt under the late Kim (or maybe not, I don't know), but not under his Prince.

n0thing

20th July 2009, 23:40

More of a monarchy than a fascist state. People way over-use the fascist term nowadays. It's a very complex ideology.

scarletghoul

20th July 2009, 23:42

Right; the dead Kim fills the role of God, with the living Kim as his designated authority on Earth.
This is complete bullshit. Sure they idolise Kim Il-Sung, but he's never taken the role of God.

Right; the serfs are tied to the land and must show fealty to its lord.
what? Thats not even a characteristic of monarchy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarchy

Anyway just look at the laws n shit, its clear that the DPRK is a republic. Kim is more a politician than a king

scarletghoul

20th July 2009, 23:43

More of a monarchy than a fascist state. People way over-use the fascist term nowadays. It's a very complex ideology.
So is Juche actually, and I doubt anyone whos posted so far in this thread even knows what juche is

LOLseph Stalin

20th July 2009, 23:45

So is Juche actually, and I doubt anyone whos posted so far in this thread even knows what juche is

I do, at least I'm pretty sure I do...

Sarah Palin

20th July 2009, 23:47

So is Juche actually, and I doubt anyone whos posted so far in this thread even knows what juche is

Juche is genius and should never be questioned.

I think that's a good idea of what juche is.

anticap

20th July 2009, 23:55

This is complete bullshit. Sure they idolise Kim Il-Sung, but he's never taken the role of God.

He fits into that slot when we draw analogies to monarchy, with its "divine right of kings." I didn't say it was an official designation.

what? Thats not even a characteristic of monarchy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarchy

Since it's unexpectedly necessary, I'll say "feudalist monarchy" from now on, although it seems redundant.

Anyway just look at the laws n shit, its clear that the DPRK is a republic. Kim is more a politician than a king

Who cares what the laws say? Observe what people do, not what they say they'll do.

I can only laugh at the notion of Kim as a politician. :laugh:

Now, tell us, why are you defending His Majesty, King Kim, and his feudalist monarchy? Is it because it is claimed to be socialist (or at least was in the past; "socialist" has been relegated to little more than a byword in their documents)?

Ol' Dirty

20th July 2009, 23:56

Do you think so? Do you think Kim Jong Il is good?

I think he is a fascist. I think the entire country is a fascist dictatorship where the people are poor and dying and are restricted from everything.They cant even use the internet!

More importantly, they can't eat unless they kowtow to the Dear Leader's military. Even then, they'll probably eat infrequently... unless they are a member of the Dear Leader's military.

Kukulofori

21st July 2009, 01:05

More importantly, they can't eat unless they kowtow to the Dear Leader's military. Even then, they'll probably eat infrequently... unless they are a member of the Dear Leader's military.

Based on what?

The DPRK sucks, I don't think anyone's questioning that, but how about we try to avoid rattling off what we learned about it from CNN?

Agrippa

21st July 2009, 01:39

I think he is a fascist. I think the entire country is a fascist dictatorship

How is North Korea fascist, unless you're just using fascist as a synonym for "bad"?

North Korea gets the most stupid labels. Apparently it is a fascist stalinist monarchy.

"Fascist" and "monarchist" are not applicable labels for the DPRK, but "Stalinist" definitely is....

So is Juche actually, and I doubt anyone whos posted so far in this thread even knows what juche is

Yeah, because Juche is such a complex and nuanced philosophical system. :rolleyes:

Anyway just look at the laws n shit, its clear that the DPRK is a republic.

Yes, because politicians always follow "the laws n shit"....

LOLseph Stalin

21st July 2009, 01:52

How is North Korea fascist, unless you're just using fascist as a synonym for "bad"?

To put it in simple terms, Fascism does=bad, but of course it's a whole separate ideology...

"Fascist" and "monarchist" are not applicable labels for the DPRK, but "Stalinist" definitely is....

Actually, one could argue that the DPRK possesses some traits commonly found in a monarchy. For one, as I've mentioned earlier the transition of leader seems to be based off whoever is next in the Kim family line. Also, this one leader demands absolute loyalty.

Yeah, because Juche is such a complex and nuanced philosophical system. :rolleyes:

Because it is? :p

Yes, because politicians always follow "the laws n shit"....

Haha, yep. Somehow I have a feeling that if a government official were to do something wrong they would be let off or at least recieve a lighter sentence...

LOLseph Stalin

21st July 2009, 02:07

Soviet

21st July 2009, 02:31

Do you think so? Do you think Kim Jong Il is good?

I think he is a fascist.

What a tough antifa,boy!
Are you ready to fight in arms personally against "fascists" if US 'd launch a war?

pierrotlefou

21st July 2009, 02:36

Wouldn't it be "Is North Korea ruled well "?:D

LOLseph Stalin

21st July 2009, 02:40

Wouldn't it be "Is North Korea ruled well "?:D

Grammar Nazi. :tt2:

A Revolutionary Tool

21st July 2009, 02:41

No I don't think they are very "good" rulers at all. They treat people like crap, they roll around in luxury cars while they tell the people they can only have two meals that day and that all the electricity will have to be shot off to cut costs.

Bright Banana Beard

21st July 2009, 02:50

No, They are Juche government, as they actually place greater role on military as it will save them money. The bureaucrat over there are acting "bourgeois", nevertheless, the economy are run by collective completing the quotas set by the bureaucrat. The bureaucrat in mind trying to lead Korea into highest quality life, but failed because the imperialism will not let them and will make the trade unfair (happened to Albania). So Isolation hit them hard. I support the government institution to help the workers and give them power, but their propaganda must be in question. They will be weakened once they are improving themselves. It is impossible to achieve fair trade because USA often use this advantage to call North Kore dictatorship. It is just a closed society which bureaucrat can exercise their rule over the collective workshop.

Dimentio

21st July 2009, 02:53

Do you think so? Do you think Kim Jong Il is good?

I think he is a fascist. I think the entire country is a fascist dictatorship where the people are poor and dying and are restricted from everything.They cant even use the internet!

I like you. And I agree. In all but name... (err wait) North Korea is definetly a fascist state. A small fascist state, but nevertheless a fascist state. It is a stain on the left that there are confused idiots who look up to that isolationist hermit kingdom.

Verix

21st July 2009, 02:56

i dont think north korea is a capatalist country like china nor do i think it is a fascist state , i think however it is a VERY VERY deformed workers state but all that shit the U.S. and its lackys spew about N. korea being a danger to the world is a bunch of bullshit the only people N.K. is a danger too, are its own people and stupid reporters

Revy

21st July 2009, 07:21

No it's not. First, there's no predetermined order of succession. The new leader is handpicked, and theres nothing that says its gotta be one of the kims. Second, thats not even the definition of monarchy.

It's a de facto monarchy. Just like it's a de facto dictatorship, but a de jure "democratic people's republic".

Stranger Than Paradise

21st July 2009, 07:32

Based on what?

The DPRK sucks, I don't think anyone's questioning that, but how about we try to avoid rattling off what we learned about it from CNN?

Exactly that is why I am veering away from the terms fascist and monarchy. The western bourgeois media want you to believe they are a dictatorship in comparison. However I feel that truthfully the situation is similar to that in America or any other Capitalist 'democracy'.

Revy

21st July 2009, 07:33

"Fascist" and "monarchist" are not applicable labels for the DPRK, but "Stalinist" definitely is....

Considering the cult of personality that is given to the Kim family and their mythic lineage and god-like status, them being bestowed various titles, and the general inevitability that only the incumbent's son will succeed him - it is a de facto monarchy. They could declare Kim Jong-il, "King of Korea" barely anything would have to change.

marxistcritic

21st July 2009, 12:47

What the hell is juche?

Dimentio

21st July 2009, 13:23

What the hell is juche?

1. Man is the highest being in all the universe.

2. Man needs to control all the resources of the land.

3. The nation needs to be self-sustaining.

4. The military is the vanguard of the revolution.

5. All Koreans must live under the same land.

Sarah Palin

21st July 2009, 15:43

It's a shame the western media tells people "IT'S A COMMUNIST REGIME." But what's worse is that some people believe it.

Robespierre2.0

21st July 2009, 20:53

Oh boy. Another one of these threads, where all the liberals come out of the woodwork to throw stones at the 'evil boogeyman' regime and pat each other on the back.

A sober look at the DPRK would show that while the hereditary passing of a political office is anti-Leninist and puts the country at risk for capitalist restoration, overall the good outweigh the bad. The DPRK's economy is still socialist- Life is hard because they face capitalist encirclement, but the state does well considering their limited resources.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUvYVZvGUC0
I might as well post this video again.

gorillafuck

21st July 2009, 21:05

Oh boy. Another one of these threads, where all the liberals come out of the woodwork to throw stones at the 'evil boogeyman' regime and pat each other on the back.
If someone doesn't like the North Korean regime they're a liberal?:confused:

Edit: And obviously life in NK isn't as bad as western media tries to make it seem even though I don't like the current regime in place and they don't have workers power.

21st July 2009, 21:13

If someone doesn't like the North Korean regime they're a liberal?:confused:

Didnt you knew?

Killfacer&Poque please stay on topic(even if its a dumb one).

I dont know what this thread serves anymore though tbh, did this turned to what juche is and if it is good or not?
Anw scarletghoul "unfortunately" we know what juche is,we dont have to be rocket scientists to do so, but i dont think that this thing contradict anything which most people said just up until the time.It does indeed seem to have some aspects of monarchy, though no, i wouldnt called it that either. But the fact that it isnt nor monarchist nor a fascist, doesnt make it "good".It still is "bad".

Fuserg9:star:

Dimentio

21st July 2009, 21:13

Oh boy. Another one of these threads, where all the liberals come out of the woodwork to throw stones at the 'evil boogeyman' regime and pat each other on the back.

A sober look at the DPRK would show that while the hereditary passing of a political office is anti-Leninist and puts the country at risk for capitalist restoration, overall the good outweigh the bad. The DPRK's economy is still socialist- Life is hard because they face capitalist encirclement, but the state does well considering their limited resources.

sUvYVZvGUC0
I might as well post this video again.

1. The reason why they kept the autarchy is partially because the hereditary system.

2. All non-capitalist systems are not progressive.

3. A system should not be judged about how well it corresponds to what Lenin wrote, but how much power it gives to the working class.

LOLseph Stalin

21st July 2009, 21:57

3. A system should not be judged about how well it corresponds to what Lenin wrote, but how much power it gives to the working class.

^ This. That was actually a huge criticism of Trotsky's about the Soviet Union.

21st July 2009, 22:29

I would say north korea is the most fascist mickey mouse regime ruled like a cartoonish 1984 orwellian dystopia...if i trusted western media outlets and self-interested politicial exiles to provide accurate and verifiable characterizations of political issues and conditions.

Fortunately I'm critical, think for myself, and withhold judgment when I don't have sufficient and epistemically satisfying knowledge of a situation.

Dimentio

21st July 2009, 22:53

redflag32

21st July 2009, 22:58

Well the power does get passed down through family so technically that is monarchist.

TD's in Ireland do the same thing:laugh:

redflag32

21st July 2009, 22:59

Anything i can do to piss off liberals i will do.......

North Korea gets my full support:cool:

Dimentio

21st July 2009, 23:00

TD's in Ireland do the same thing:laugh:

Yes, but they could be voted away. We have the Kennedys in America and the Trudeaus in Canada, but they do not singly owe their power to the "great national liberator".

Radical

21st July 2009, 23:03

Lets just say its FAR from Communism.. haha

redflag32

21st July 2009, 23:06

Yes, but they could be voted away. We have the Kennedys in America and the Trudeaus in Canada, but they do not singly owe their power to the "great national liberator".

You've obviously never heard of Dev:)

Dimentio

21st July 2009, 23:15

You've obviously never heard of Dev:)

De Valera was that kind of bizarre figure which would never rise to power in Ireland today. :P

Nothing Human Is Alien

21st July 2009, 23:37

Perspectives on Korea (http://amte.wordpress.com/2009/07/08/perspectives-on-korea/)

22nd July 2009, 00:51

No one could deny it is at least silly to acclaim one family semi-divine traits.

The truth is that it is a horrendous caricature of socialism.

Thats true! You know how I know its true? Well, I don't actually know how I know it, it just sort of sounds true to me cause its been repeated so many times. Although I kindof assume it from the portrait of north Korea I've gotten from western bourgeois and corporate media...

...oh wait!

Agrippa

22nd July 2009, 00:59

If someone doesn't like the North Korean regime they're a liberal?

I've been called a "liberal" for not thinking the Tibetans and Uyghurs shouldn't be subjugated by the PRC, so why not?

Agrippa

22nd July 2009, 01:10

Perspectives on Korea (http://amte.wordpress.com/2009/07/08/perspectives-on-korea/)

All and all, an intelligent article, thanks for sharing. However, it has a few problems, mainly

its insistence that there's a difference between a "bureaucratized proletarian state" and a capitalist state
its insistence that "collectivized" capitalist property, "a planned economy", "a monopoly on foreign trade", and "universal" capitalist "healthcare" and "education", are "progressive", rather than permutations of capitalist social control
most bizarrely, its implication that workers within North Korea must wait for South Korean workers to kickstart the revolution.

Nothing Human Is Alien

22nd July 2009, 03:09

I'm not going to debate whether or not there is a difference between planned economies based on collectivized property and capitalist market economies. It's been brought up here several times before.

Suffice it to say the imperialists have no problem telling what stands in their way. See their positions on north Korea vs. their positions on openly repressive capitalist regimes like Egypt.

most bizarrely, its implication that workers within North Korea must wait for South Korean workers to kickstart the revolution.

The point is not that the proletariat in the north "must wait" for the workers in the south but that a revolution in the south would create an opening for the unification of Korea on lines favorable to the working class in Korea and around the world.

PRC-UTE

22nd July 2009, 03:19

Yes, but they could be voted away. We have the Kennedys in America and the Trudeaus in Canada, but they do not singly owe their power to the "great national liberator".

Yeah, but for the first few generations or so the American Republic had the same kind of politics. Not only after the war of indpendence, even Andrew Jackson was a great national liberator type of politician for his role in the war of 1812.

Bright Banana Beard

22nd July 2009, 04:23

His cult of personality is no different from the role of the president and prime minister around the world. To say this is serious threat without consideration that Durriti, Fidel, Stalin, Che, Makhno, etc. is really ignoring the materialist basic. This is always going to happen until the world reach socialism.

Agrippa

23rd July 2009, 02:46

Are you really comparing individuals who earn a degree of respect and admiration due to their liberatory deeds, (Makhno, Durutti, etc.) to those who create cults of personal charisma around themselves as psychological support for their autocracies? (Not that any capitalist society can be 100% autocratic, or that Stalin, Kim, etc. are some sort of fuedal lord with unlimited power)

VILemon

23rd July 2009, 06:23

Guise, it's a necrocracy.

Well if he's actually dead that is. I have seen articles saying Kim has been dead since 2003 and others saying that he is still alive. With the lack of North Korean media outside of North Korea it's really hard to know for sure.

In calling it a necrocracy he's referring to the president who has been dead since 1994 and still holds that title. Not lil' kim. He's just head of the Worker's Party.

Josef Balin

24th July 2009, 17:25

Well, aside from everything else, the leader passed power on to his son.
No. No he did not.

Are you really comparing individuals who earn a degree of respect and admiration due to their liberatory deeds, (Makhno, Durutti, etc.) to those who create cults of personal charisma around themselves as psychological support for their autocracies? (Not that any capitalist society can be 100% autocratic, or that Stalin, Kim, etc. are some sort of fuedal lord with unlimited power)
I've met quite a few Ukrainians, none had anything good (or bad, really, more neutral leaning bad) to say about Makhno.

All and all, an intelligent article, thanks for sharing. However, it has a few problems, mainly

its insistence that there's a difference between a "bureaucratized proletarian state" and a capitalist state
its insistence that "collectivized" capitalist property, "a planned economy", "a monopoly on foreign trade", and "universal" capitalist "healthcare" and "education", are "progressive", rather than permutations of capitalist social control

I'm sure to you sitting on your ass in a well-ventilated room where you can read as a result of your education in a first world country there is no difference between those things, but that doesn't change the fact that anyone who cares about the reality of things can see that they are, in fact, progressive and the workers of the countries where these things exist do cherish who they see (to be fair as the result of a humdrum analysis because they are mostly apolitical, and that because of a bureaucracy moving forward its own interests) as the physical manifestation of those material gains.

In calling it a necrocracy he's referring to the president who has been dead since 1994 and still holds that title. Not lil' kim. He's just head of the Worker's Party.
Well that would mean you are fooled into believing that a dead man still does physical acts simply because a piece of paper says so. Which makes you a lot of things, but certainly not a Marxist.

Agrippa

25th July 2009, 00:14

I've met quite a few Ukrainians, none had anything good (or bad, really, more neutral leaning bad) to say about Makhno.

Using anecdotal evidence in an Internet debate is even more pathetic than doing it in a real-life debate.

Guess what, I've met 52 trillion Ukranians who say Nestor Makhno

Luckily my interpretation of history is usually decided by facts rather than sentimental bias for the indoctrinated, malleable opinions of miseducated proletarian masses.

Lots of English workers love Churchill. Lots of Turkish workers love Atatürk. Lots of Indian workers love Gandhi and Nehru. Lots of Japanese workers love Hirohito. Lots of New African workers love Barack Obama. etc. etc. etc.

I'm sure to you sitting on your ass

Well, I could be doing calistetics while dicking around on RevLeft, I guess...

in a well-ventilated room

What does the ventilation of my room have to do with the logical and rational legitimacy, or perhaps lack-thereof, of my arguments?

where you can read as a result of your education in a first world country

My parents taught me to read, and I only recieved four years of "education" from the capitalist system (K-4) - and it didn't give me any special magical priviliges. It just psychologically traumatized me.

there is no difference between those things, but that doesn't change the fact that anyone who cares about the reality of things can see that they are, in fact, progressive

You could say the same thing about "social spending" in France, Sweden, Canada, etc., but when it comes down to it, it's just the bourgeoisie's excuse to control every aspect of our biological lives.

and the workers of the countries where these things exist do cherish who they see (to be fair as the result of a humdrum analysis because they are mostly apolitical, and that because of a bureaucracy moving forward its own interests) as the physical manifestation of those material gains.

Again, you could say the same thing about Hitler, Jefferson, Cromwell, FDR, etc. All it shows is how impressionable and prone to capitalist mass-media brainwashing the masses are these days, how empty their lives are that they seek to fill the void with patriarchal statesman hero-worship.

Merces

25th July 2009, 05:51

What are you talking about North Korea is run as a socialist republic. It has a highly centralized economy and yes, it is a self reliant state. The governing party is the Democratic Front for the Reunification of the Fatherland, which is a coalition of the Workers' Party of Korea, and is key in adopting communist ideology and ruling of government.

Of course it is ruled good, it's just the fascist western world that points out North korea's flaws due it being one of the last communist state's in the world.

VILemon

26th July 2009, 05:01

Well that would mean you are fooled into believing that a dead man still does physical acts simply because a piece of paper says so. Which makes you a lot of things, but certainly not a Marxist.

As regards the term "Necrocracy" the earlier poster (and I) were kidding. Obviously the term is one of abuse for a system which nominates cadavers to high office. As to my Marxism, I honestly cannot picture most Marxists (or Marx) approving of an unelected bourgeoisie which hands down power dynastically or infuses the social order with Confucianism . Anyone who thinks that Juche is more progressive than late capitalism is certainly not a Marxist. There is no evidence that the North Korean working class exert any meaningful control over the means of production. I'm not a Marxist? Juche contains notions of soil-bound race and isn't even nominally interested in international socialism! Songun states that the army is the revolutionary class.

However, if you actually think that the workers have meaningful power, please explain. What are the political structures in place to safegaurd this power? It would be comforting to know that there is a progressive state there. And please do not give me ad hom attacks about air conditioning instead of arguments.