Anti-semitism

[graffic]

What is it about the Jews?

I mean with regard to racism they have to be the most widespread hated people on earth. Fascists are obsessed with them as an ethnic group more so than any other. I personally don't understand the obsession. I have met many Jews but I can't say I can point them out to you in a group of people or do I recognise any of the so called "stereotypical traits".

In history they have been kicked out of England, France, Austria, Germany, Lithuania, Spain, Portugal, Bohemia, Moravia and seventy-one other countries.

But the most unique thing about anti-semitism is that the reasons for anger are often paradoxes. Jews are hated for being capitalist exploiters and for being communist revolutionaries. They were hated for being an inferior and lazy race but then for being dominating and taking over the world. They were hated for being alien and stubborn but when they did assimilate they were seen as a threat to racial purity because of inter-marriage.

Some of the most prevalent "war mongerers" and "pacifist cowards" were Jews.

[Havet]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKxnICixF7g

"Fuck the jews, just for being a religion at all" - Doug Stanhope

Interesting quote. Would you say that is an antisemitic stance? He is not attacking the jews for belonging to a group they were born into - that would be antisemitic - but because they chose to follow that religion. And most people here believe religion is idiotic. So is thinking badly of religion followers anti-semitic?

[graffic]

haha I've watched that video before.

I'm not talking specifically about religious Jews. Anti-semitism has extended far beyond religion because there are many (perhaps more than religious) secular Jews in the world and in history (Russian revolution).

[Havet]

haha I've watched that video before.

I'm not talking specifically about religious Jews. Anti-semitism has extended far beyond religion because there are many (perhaps more than religious) secular Jews in the world and in history (Russian revolution).

oh well in that case I have nothing against jews that are jews simply because they have a special characteristic (which isnt really special) or happened to be born in a special place. Jew are individuals, and I only recognize them as such. It is dangerous to collectivize people for one is always inflating individual desires, goals, ideas or actions.

[Bud Struggle]

For the longest time in European society Christians weren't permitted by their faith to lend money with interest. The Jews had no such prohibition. Without interest there was no reason for Christians to lend money to finance anything--the Jews were the only people that would lend money for business ventures or political opportunism.

Some Jews took advantage of this problem and became the bankers of Europe--and great banking houses like the Warburgs and the Rothchilds arose lending both money to Christian princes and Jewish businessmen. This gave Jews a decided advantage in business dealing from the Middle ages into the 17th Century.

All well and good, things have changed considerably since then--but some people seem to think that a "Jewish Cabal" still seems to exist to plot Jewish betterment at the expense of the rest of society.

It's pretty far fetched stuff--but the Germans in Nazi Germany bought the idea and Stormfront is doing excellent traffic in the myth also.

[OneNamedNameLess]

They were also held responsible for the death of Jesus Christ, no? Anti-semitism has very deep roots and some of the myths which have been established over recent years are simply anti-semitism in a new form. It's not easy to say why the Jews are discriminated against and when exactly this began.

[9]

Some Jews do get offended easily. Some Jews are very confrontational (which isn't to say that either of these traits are exclusive to Jews, but nontheless). My family is an interesting example of this. Growing up, it always humiliated me, though I find it amusing now - we'd go to a restaurant for a special occasion, told there was a ten minute wait. Twenty minutes would pass, and somebody in my family would always fly off the handle. My aunt recently went to get a haircut, didn't like the job they did, and so proceeded to stand outside the shop for a couple hours telling everyone that passed not to go in because they do a horrible job. A couple years ago, my mother was driving around a crowded supermarket parkinglot looking for a space, and when she finally found one and was getting ready to pull into it, some guy sped in and took it first. So, my mother waited for him to go into the supermarket and then wrote all over his car with her lipstick. She then went into the supermarket, found him, attempted to embarrass him (though more likely, herself) in front of everyone, and then left. While it is always counterproductive to go overboard, I do admire the fact that my family doesn't take shit from anyone, and if they have something on their mind, they say it. And if they have a problem with someone, they tell them. And if they feel like they're being taken advantage of, they speak up. None of this playing nice to someone's face and then talking shit behind their back bullshit.
I hear the "Jews are not an ethno-cultural group" case put forward a lot, as well as the "Jew is a term for someone who adheres to Judaism and nothing more". And I generally sympathize with what the person is saying, but - just out of personal experience - I have to disagree. I think most people can acknowledge that, while they can't really put their finger on it, there is something defining about many Jews that can really only be described as "eccentric" or "peculiar" - there's even a word for it in Yiddish - this peculiarity among Jews. It is referred to as "Yiddishkeit" ('Jewishness').
On the topic, though, anti-Semitism is definitely a bizarre form of bigotry. It is interesting how, even though Jews in America and the UK are largely assimilated (there aren't Jewish ghettos anymore) and institutionalized discrimination against Jews is a thing of the past, these hilarious Jewish conspiracy theories still persist. To what extent "Yiddishkeit" plays into these conspiracy theories is hard to measure, but certainly one cannot justifiably - as a couple here seem to be attempting to do, and has been done throughout history - place blame for discrimination against Jews upon Jews themselves. People just need to be more tolerant of cultural differences instead of fearing them or shunning them.

[Sentinel]

That's right, ban people who don't say what you like to here, no-one should be allowed to say anything other than what you want them to say.

It's called having a 'no-platform policy' for fascism, anti-semitism etc. There are enough places for bigots to spout their nonsense without adding revleft to the list, and moreover letting such people post is a possible liability considering that the server is located in Germany.

This means that we do not on this board discuss with anti-semites, racialists and their ilk under any circumstances or for any reason -- not to prove them wrong, not to educate them, nothing.

Thusly 'cappiej' has been banned and his opinions have been split from this thread into the trashcan.

[Pogue]

nicely played sentinel, heads up to, i got a feeling this joker will be back

[Demogorgon]

The "outsider" has always been an easy scapegoat. You see it clearly today with all the immigrant bashing. The Jewish people have traditionally been seen as a distinct group spread out across the world. Hence bigots have always seen them as the outsiders.

They were an easy target really, and what is easier for a feudal lord to say? "You are downtrodden because of the feudal system" or "you are downtrodden because of the Jews". That continued through all the different social and economic changes into modern capitalism and you see an identical thing with blaming immigrants today.

[New Tet]

I personally have zero tolerance for anti-Semites. There are some who try to hide their hatred of Jews behind a facade of anti-Zionism; they too must be rooted out and exposed.

Zionism and Jewish irredentism , I believe, are partly reactionary responses to anti-Semitism which, in some cases, inflame anti-Jewish sentiments.

I agree with this forum's policy of not entertaining discussion with Fascists and racists.
Like Woody Allen once said, "I'll support the right of Nazis to demonstrate as long as I'm allowed to meet them on the street with baseball bats."

[narcomprom]

Antisemitism, the body of ideas amassed during centuries of scapegoating, is, in my opinion, passé if we look away from radical minorities, and the middle east.

If we are to blame ideas we should better concentrate on living ones.

[SouthernBelle82]

I have no idea either. I think with Hitler it was just easy because it was already there. Could be the same with other people. He used that for his political capital and he probably really felt that way. Maybe all the people who rejected his art work were some how connected to Judaism?

[SouthernBelle82]

"Fuck the jews, just for being a religion at all" - Doug Stanhope

Interesting quote. Would you say that is an antisemitic stance? He is not attacking the jews for belonging to a group they were born into - that would be antisemitic - but because they chose to follow that religion. And most people here believe religion is idiotic. So is thinking badly of religion followers anti-semitic?

I think only when race comes into play. However why is it only Jewish people who you're called anti-semitic? They aren't the only ones who are Semitic.

[SouthernBelle82]

They were also held responsible for the death of Jesus Christ, no? Anti-semitism has very deep roots and some of the myths which have been established over recent years are simply anti-semitism in a new form. It's not easy to say why the Jews are discriminated against and when exactly this began.

Yes even though it wasn't really them. They're just still waiting.

[SouthernBelle82]

Some Jews do get offended easily. Some Jews are very confrontational (which isn't to say that either of these traits are exclusive to Jews, but nontheless). My family is an interesting example of this. Growing up, it always humiliated me, though I find it amusing now - we'd go to a restaurant for a special occasion, told there was a ten minute wait. Twenty minutes would pass, and somebody in my family would always fly off the handle. My aunt recently went to get a haircut, didn't like the job they did, and so proceeded to stand outside the shop for a couple hours telling everyone that passed not to go in because they do a horrible job. A couple years ago, my mother was driving around a crowded supermarket parkinglot looking for a space, and when she finally found one and was getting ready to pull into it, some guy sped in and took it first. So, my mother waited for him to go into the supermarket and then wrote all over his car with her lipstick. She then went into the supermarket, found him, attempted to embarrass him (though more likely, herself) in front of everyone, and then left. While it is always counterproductive to go overboard, I do admire the fact that my family doesn't take shit from anyone, and if they have something on their mind, they say it. And if they have a problem with someone, they tell them. And if they feel like they're being taken advantage of, they speak up. None of this playing nice to someone's face and then talking shit behind their back bullshit.
I hear the "Jews are not an ethno-cultural group" case put forward a lot, as well as the "Jew is a term for someone who adheres to Judaism and nothing more". And I generally sympathize with what the person is saying, but - just out of personal experience - I have to disagree. I think most people can acknowledge that, while they can't really put their finger on it, there is something defining about many Jews that can really only be described as "eccentric" or "peculiar" - there's even a word for it in Yiddish - this peculiarity among Jews. It is referred to as "Yiddishkeit" ('Jewishness').
On the topic, though, anti-Semitism is definitely a bizarre form of bigotry. It is interesting how, even though Jews in America and the UK are largely assimilated (there aren't Jewish ghettos anymore) and institutionalized discrimination against Jews is a thing of the past, these hilarious Jewish conspiracy theories still persist. To what extent "Yiddishkeit" plays into these conspiracy theories is hard to measure, but certainly one cannot justifiably - as a couple here seem to be attempting to do, and has been done throughout history - place blame for discrimination against Jews upon Jews themselves. People just need to be more tolerant of cultural differences instead of fearing them or shunning them.

Very interesting. You'd seem the best to ask but where do Jewish people draw the line with religion and ethnicity or do they not see a line?

[SouthernBelle82]

The "outsider" has always been an easy scapegoat. You see it clearly today with all the immigrant bashing. The Jewish people have traditionally been seen as a distinct group spread out across the world. Hence bigots have always seen them as the outsiders.

They were an easy target really, and what is easier for a feudal lord to say? "You are downtrodden because of the feudal system" or "you are downtrodden because of the Jews". That continued through all the different social and economic changes into modern capitalism and you see an identical thing with blaming immigrants today.

Yep. Now it's Mexicans which is so sad. :( I bet if things were great economy wise there wouldn't be it. I so agree about a scapegoat.

[Rosa Provokateur]

Honestly, I think it's the unfortunate lot of God's chosen people. That sounds bad, looks even worse when reading it and I know I'll get flamed for it but it's what I've got.

[Pogue]

Honestly, I think it's the unfortunate lot of God's chosen people. That sounds bad, looks even worse when reading it and I know I'll get flamed for it but it's what I've got.

Explain?

[Rosa Provokateur]

Explain?

Which part? The actual statement or why I think I'll get flamed?

*666th Post - HOW LONG TILL MY COMPUTER EXPLODES*

[Pogue]

actual statement

[Rosa Provokateur]

actual statement

Well, I think it's all religious for lack of a better word.

The Catholics killed Jews because they thought the Jews killed Christ.

European powers killed Jews because they thought Jews where an enemy of the faith.

Hitler killed Jews more for race than religion but being Catholic himself I dont think it was because of race alone.

Now adays with the ongoing conflict in Gaza, although politics are a huge part and I sympathize with Palestine, Jews are more or less still being killed on the basis of religion.

I think that the idea that they're God's chosen people has alot to do with it.

[9]

Very interesting. You'd seem the best to ask but where do Jewish people draw the line with religion and ethnicity or do they not see a line?

I think there is a general acknowledgment or belief that a person born to Jews (or a Jewish mother) is a Jew, regardless of Judaism. Of course, there is the religious Jew and the secular Jew. But still, most will regard both as equally "Jewish".

[Dean]

What is it about the Jews?

I mean with regard to racism they have to be the most widespread hated people on earth. Fascists are obsessed with them as an ethnic group more so than any other. I personally don't understand the obsession. I have met many Jews but I can't say I can point them out to you in a group of people or do I recognise any of the so called "stereotypical traits".

In history they have been kicked out of England, France, Austria, Germany, Lithuania, Spain, Portugal, Bohemia, Moravia and seventy-one other countries.

But the most unique thing about anti-semitism is that the reasons for anger are often paradoxes. Jews are hated for being capitalist exploiters and for being communist revolutionaries. They were hated for being an inferior and lazy race but then for being dominating and taking over the world. They were hated for being alien and stubborn but when they did assimilate they were seen as a threat to racial purity because of inter-marriage.

Some of the most prevalent "war mongerers" and "pacifist cowards" were Jews.

I don't think the Jews are really that special when it comes to racial discrimination. Just look at the African diaspora in the entire western world; the Palestinian diaspora in teh middle east, or the Irish diaspora in the west. Each group have had systematic, institutional, social or otherwise compelling forms of oppression levied against them for centuries or decades. The case is simple: there was an economic incentive to ostracise and exploit these people. Simply put, the drive for profit makes the ethnic or social boundaries for these groups useful mediums to distract from the oppressive forces in capitalist or otherwise exploitative systems.

In Egypt, they served as slave labor with no serious political backlash. In europe, their ostracism served to solidify the feudal power bases. And in Nazi Germany, Hitler needed a scapegoat to keep the people constantly fearful and intimately suppressed - just like the Communist or Islamic threat has been used in the U.S..

There are powerful, distinct reasons for each of the oppressions placed on the Jewish people, and they are each rooted in material, economic conditions - not some mystical or social problem with Judaism that sets them in opposition to the rest of society. The Jewish people, just like any other religious / social group, desperately seek to bridge the perceived gap between them and the rest of industrial society. There is nothing about Jews that makes them oppressed except for wrong place, wrong time.

[Dean]

I think that the idea that they're God's chosen people has alot to do with it.

Just about every religion posits some form of exclusory link to godliness, and I find it a bit unnerving that you would describe that dogma as a catalyst for their oppression. So Christians and Muslims fly into a rage of ethnic cleansing because the Jews are "God's chosen people?" What about the Christian notion of Hell - why don't Jews and Muslims attack Christians for that?

[narcomprom]

I wouldn't reach back into feudalism to explain antisemitism with an solid economic base. Any minority will be victim to prejudice and consequently scapegoating.
The "Jews and Freemasons" were a popular boogeyman and scapegoat exactly because they existed everywhere as a minority. Hitler was a representative of a long tradition.

I think there is a general acknowledgment or belief that a person born to Jews (or a Jewish mother) is a Jew, regardless of Judaism. Of course, there is the religious Jew and the secular Jew. But still, most will regard both as equally "Jewish".
The issue for the first zionists was that these most wouldn't care to ask their supposed Jew first about his nationality before regarding him as such. His eastern european temper (you termed "Yiddishkeit") combined with a mediterranean ethnicity would suffice to pigeonhole him as a Jew.

I think Herzl had a point when he claimed that for Antisemitism to disappear Jews had to disappear for a few generations from europe. Indeed nowadays the antisemitism you encounter in European public is lifted either straight out of South Park or out of some other American show. There is not enough serious antisemitism to pull another Dreyfus Affair, unless, of course, they pull it on a muslim.

[9]

I think Herzl had a point when he claimed that for Antisemitism to disappear Jews had to disappear for a few generations from europe. Indeed nowadays the antisemitism you encounter in European public is lifted either straight out of South Park or out of some other American show. There is not enough serious antisemitism to pull another Dreyfus Affair, unless, of course, they pull it on a muslim.

Herzl has been the leading contributor to anti-Semitism since Hitler, so I can't take a quote from him very seriously, quite honestly.

[narcomprom]

Herzl has been the leading contributor to anti-Semitism since Hitler, so I can't take a quote from him very seriously, quite honestly.
:confused: you'll have to explain that.

[9]

:confused: you'll have to explain that.

Zionism is the primary force keeping anti-Semitism alive, in my opinion.

[SouthernBelle82]

I think there is a general acknowledgment or belief that a person born to Jews (or a Jewish mother) is a Jew, regardless of Judaism. Of course, there is the religious Jew and the secular Jew. But still, most will regard both as equally "Jewish".

Right. I was just wondering if people who are Jewish see any line. Like I've heard Jon Stewart say he isn't a practicing Jew religion wise.

[SouthernBelle82]

Just about every religion posits some form of exclusory link to godliness, and I find it a bit unnerving that you would describe that dogma as a catalyst for their oppression. So Christians and Muslims fly into a rage of ethnic cleansing because the Jews are "God's chosen people?" What about the Christian notion of Hell - why don't Jews and Muslims attack Christians for that?

Not all Christian's believe in hell. We gnostics don't cause we don't believe in sin. Hell is a state of mind.

[New Tet]

Well, I think it's all religious for lack of a better word.

The Catholics killed Jews because they thought the Jews killed Christ

Some Catholics, not all Catholics killed Jews. And they did it out of ignorance, fear and greed, prompted by clever motherfuckers who used those massacres as a pretext to dispossess Jews of their sometimes meager possessions.


European powers killed Jews because they thought Jews where an enemy of the faith.As i stated above, that was the pretext, not the real reason.


Hitler killed Jews more for race than religion but being Catholic himself I dont think it was because of race alone.Nazis, and many who weren't, latched on to those arguments to justify their nefarious actions, but the real reason behind Nazi genocide of European Jewry was economic. Greed, pure and simple.


Now adays with the ongoing conflict in Gaza, although politics are a huge part and I sympathize with Palestine, Jews are more or less still being killed on the basis of religion.Jews and Arabs are being killed in Palestine because U.S. imperialist goals in that region require[] it. The waning American economic, political and military hegemony in the Middle East demands the existence of a sympathetic Jewish state in order secure vital strategic resources like oil and uranium.


I think that the idea that they're God's chosen people has alot to do with it.Yes, but only as a bad excuse. After all, Christianity is based on the teachings of a Jew who informed his doctrine on the basic assumption that the Jews WERE God's chosen people.

Likewise Islam. After all, Islam teaches that the Jews and the Arabs come from the same father: Abraham; both literally and metaphorically.

[9]

Right. I was just wondering if people who are Jewish see any line. Like I've heard Jon Stewart say he isn't a practicing Jew religion wise.

Well, I probably should have mentioned above that this definition is not necessarily universal among Jews. It is the definition I have been raised with, the one I encounter most commonly among other Jews. There is a smaller, newer denomination within Judaism, however, called Reform Judaism that defines who is a Jew a little differently. If I remember correctly, Reform Judaism does not consider secular or non-practicing Jews to be 'Jews'; it uses the term strictly in a religious sense. It also departs from tradition insofar as it recognizes a child born to a gentile mother and a Jewish father as a Jew (assuming they are practicing), while traditionally a child born to a mixed marriage must have a Jewish mother in order to be a Jew and those born to only a Jewish father must complete a conversion to the Jewish faith along the same lines as any other gentile.

[Rosa Provokateur]

Just about every religion posits some form of exclusory link to godliness, and I find it a bit unnerving that you would describe that dogma as a catalyst for their oppression. So Christians and Muslims fly into a rage of ethnic cleansing because the Jews are "God's chosen people?" What about the Christian notion of Hell - why don't Jews and Muslims attack Christians for that?

I dont know, I wouldnt blame them if they did though.

[Rosa Provokateur]

Zionism is the primary force keeping anti-Semitism alive, in my opinion.

Zionism and laziness.

[SouthernBelle82]

Well, I probably should have mentioned above that this definition is not necessarily universal among Jews. It is the definition I have been raised with, the one I encounter most commonly among other Jews. There is a smaller, newer denomination within Judaism, however, called Reform Judaism that defines who is a Jew a little differently. If I remember correctly, Reform Judaism does not consider secular or non-practicing Jews to be 'Jews'; it uses the term strictly in a religious sense. It also departs from tradition insofar as it recognizes a child born to a gentile mother and a Jewish father as a Jew (assuming they are practicing), while traditionally a child born to a mixed marriage must have a Jewish mother in order to be a Jew and those born to only a Jewish father must complete a conversion to the Jewish faith along the same lines as any other gentile.

Right that's what I thought with the mother. Say with Jon Stewart they wouldn't consider him Jewish even if both of his parents are Jewish? I have no idea so just throwing that out there as an example. Wouldn't the "Reform" movement take away from what God says since they're supposed to be God's chosen people? Do they have scripture backings of this new movement? Wouldn't you just be God's chosen people if you had scriptural evidence?

[graffic]

Jews and Arabs are being killed in Palestine because U.S. imperialist goals in that region require[] it. The waning American economic, political and military hegemony in the Middle East demands the existence of a sympathetic Jewish state in order secure vital strategic resources like oil and uranium.

How does the relationship with the Jewish state secure vital strategic resources like oil and uranium? Surely if all America was interested in was economic resources they would forget Israel and befriend all the Arab states who have all the oil.

The prime reason America has a problem in the middle east is because of it's support for Israel. If they wanted to start playing better economic cards and have faster, easier profits they would drop support for Israel straight away.

The reason is that many Jews are influential in America. The second reason is that Israel is a beacon of democracy and hope in a destitute region, surrounded by backward reactionary regimes. America supports this brand of democracy.

[Dean]

I dont know, I wouldnt blame them if they did though.

That is pretty fucked up. I would certainly blame someone for attacking a religious group just because they had asinine, arbitrary views.


Not all Christian's believe in hell. We gnostics don't cause we don't believe in sin. Hell is a state of mind.

That's fine, but I'm pretty sure not all Jews believe in the "Chosen People" thing, just because A. defining "Jewish" is not clear and B. almost all religions have a broad range of dissenting sects.

[Dean]

How does the relationship with the Jewish state secure vital strategic resources like oil and uranium? Surely if all America was interested in was economic resources they would forget Israel and befriend all the Arab states who have all the oil.
Israel serves as a military platform (like Kyrgyzstan) and a military partner of the U.S.. What is not to understand re:securement of natural resources? Have they not bombed Iraq and Iran?


The prime reason America has a problem in the middle east is because of it's support for Israel. If they wanted to start playing better economic cards and have faster, easier profits they would drop support for Israel straight away.
That's laughable. Israel serves as a dogmatic, hyper-technologized[sic?] enterprise in the middle east. They not only test, but also develop more military arms useful to the West.


The reason is that many Jews are influential in America. The second reason is that Israel is a beacon of democracy and hope in a destitute region, surrounded by backward reactionary regimes. America supports this brand of democracy.
Jews are not to blame for the U.S. support for Israel; in fact, Jews in Congress tend to be the most vocal critics of Israel there. Israel's brand of propaganda and "democracy" is specifically tailored for western audiences; all you prove with these ridiculous remarks about the "democracy" of a white nationalist apartheid state is that the propaganda works.


In any case, Israel is not the cause for Antisemitism.

[graffic]

Israel is not a "white nationalist" state. White nationalists hate Jews with a burning passion!

My point was that if America is only friends with Israel from an economic point why are they not be-friending the Arab states who hold all the oil. Why not forget Israel and focus on being friendly with Iran who have oil. Without Israel there is no reason for US->Arab animosity.

[ls]

Israel is not a "white nationalist" state. White nationalists hate Jews with a burning passion!

So fucking what, a lot of "white supremacists" hate "turks" too, yet there are massive movements of white supremacy in Turkey.

In Israel there is a self-described "ultra-orthodox" PM in charge backed by that self-described ultra-nationalist Yisrael, honestly are you that thick to put two and two together?


My point was that if America is only friends with Israel from an economic point why are they not be-friending the Arab states who hold all the oil.

Dean already said why.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I don't think the Jews are really that special when it comes to racial discrimination. Just look at the African diaspora in the entire western world; the Palestinian diaspora in teh middle east, or the Irish diaspora in the west. Each group have had systematic, institutional, social or otherwise compelling forms of oppression levied against them for centuries or decades.

There is the not-so-small matter of the Jews being Europe's whipping boy for over two millennia. In fact, if I remember correctly anti-Jewish sentiment was expressed by Romans and ancient Greeks, before Jesus was allegedly born. Antisemitism runs deep, it seems. A shameful blot on human history, for sure.

[Rosa Provokateur]

That is pretty fucked up. I would certainly blame someone for attacking a religious group just because they had asinine, arbitrary views.





Maybe. I'm not saying it'd be right for them to do so but as arrogant as some preachers are in passing judgement on other faiths and condemning them to Hell, it wouldnt shock me if someone returned the favor.

[narcomprom]

Zionism is the primary force keeping anti-Semitism alive, in my opinion.

The reason is that many Jews are influential in America.
Graffic's words are best proof to your thesis.

As much as I agree I can't see why anyone would blame Herzl for todays situation. Have you read der Judenstaat? It only points the Jewish question needs a solution other than assimilation because assimilation failed horrendously as was seen in France.

He wasn't a nationalist romantic seeking to revive the Kingdom of Israel or anything of that sort, but a fairly sober progressive thinker. It wasn't some nebulous national identity that was to be retained but the lifes of millions. Calls for a genocide were already fairly loud on the religious right of the 1870s.

[TC]

What is it about the Jews?

I mean with regard to racism they have to be the most widespread hated people on earth.

That strikes me as just factually untrue. In the West, dark skinned post-colonial and post-slave populations are much more likely to be the subject of racist oppression.


Fascists are obsessed with them as an ethnic group more so than any other.
Thats true but the Fascists have been successfully suppressed and the wannabe Fascists are an overestimated threat powerless to impose the type of institutional racism on Jews and people of color that the bourgeois continue to impose on people of color but not Jews.


I personally don't understand the obsession.

Fascists were obsessed with Jews because Jews were the only discreet minority group they could cleave away from their own ruling and professional classes so as to mobilize the disaffected underclass and petty bourgeois in concert with the bulk of the ruling class against the workers movement...thats all really. It was strategic.

...anyways your post has come about seventy years too old. There is no longer a 'Jewish Question' except in the minds of a handful of racist nazis and zionists.

[9]

Graffic's words are best proof to your thesis.

As much as I agree I can't see why anyone would blame Herzl for todays situation. Have you read der Judenstaat? It only points the Jewish question needs a solution other than assimilation because assimilation failed horrendously as was seen in France.

He wasn't a nationalist romantic seeking to revive the Kingdom of Israel or anything of that sort, but a fairly sober progressive thinker. It wasn't some nebulous national identity that was to be retained but the lifes of millions. Calls for a genocide were already fairly loud on the religious right of the 1870s.

I am not saying that Herzl intended Zionism in any way to perpetuate anti-Semitism, but I do think he failed to consider the consequences of "Jewish nationhood" in the geographic sense. I am not contesting his intentions, I'm simply noting that - with the benefit of hindsight - it is now (in my opinion) quite clear that his ideas on assimilation and the 'Jewish question' were ass backwards. Attempts to "solve" the Jewish question are always reactionary and violent, regardless of who they are conceived by and what the motivating factors are, regardless of whether its Hitler's sadistic Final Solution or Herzl's escapist, idealist Zionism. The question cannot be "solved", it can only be rendered obsolete. And this can only happen through assimilation - and the single thing standing in the way of this goal being virtually entirely realized at this point is the State of Israel. Israel is the lifeline of the Jewish question.

And with regard to the previous post by TC, I have to respectfully disagree that anti-Semitism is no longer extant outside of a deranged "handful". Undoubtedly its prevalence varies (and to significant degrees) from region to region, but my experiences growing up (both in Pittsburgh and, moreso, in Washington state) have led me to conclude that it is still very much alive among certain segments of the population. However, it is no longer institutionalized in any form (unlike racism and xenophobia) and the day-to-day consequences faced by Jews as a result of anti-Semitism are very, very few and far between and equally mild. But the sentiment is still present, and I think it unwise to assume, simply because it is currently consigned to rhetorical manifestations, that it will necessarily remain this way.

[narcomprom]

Would you, Apikoros, call your anscestors who made their choice to flee the pogroms of tsarist Russia to America, equally, idealist escapists? Should they have just stayed trying to fit in expecting, someday, fair treatment?

It's not that they were greeted exactly warmly by the pilgrim's nation either. There was something, after all, that still drove a majority of that minority either to become zionists or to attain progressive positions on politics even in the USA. The wanning of instutionalised antisemitism is a fairly recent development and that only occured in the West, not in the USSR, starting with Israeli statehood.

Do you really think it could have been rendered obsolete in your country if the Zionists chose to become an imperialist outpost of the kremlin instead of Washington back in 1948? Gypsies got sterilised well into the 70s (edit: it's apparently was done until 2005 in the Czech republic.) and are still despised in most of the West despite sharing the fate of the Jews. Why didn't they get the same treatment as you did? Why don't I see any Porajmos museums and hollywood flicks? What about the communists and Polish POWs?

To paint zionism as a black spot in cultural history is a bit too simplistic. Of course if, now, the Israeli Jews returned nothing would stand in the way of assimilation which is exactly what Herzl suggested. The problems is to convince them to do it. :(

[graffic]

That strikes me as just factually untrue. In the West, dark skinned post-colonial and post-slave populations are much more likely to be the subject of racist oppression.

I mean that in history over time Jews have been subject to more hate than any other ethnic group. It's not an issue of who has suffered most. All racism and prejudice is grotesque I am just intrigued and interested in the reasons why the Jews have suffered so much hate because as I noted in my first post the reasons for anti-semitism are often paradoxes. Most ethnic hatred is defined whereas anti-semitism takes on many different forms.

I agree that in America and parts of Europe african-americans are often at the lower end of the economic spectrum. I believe in what Malcolm X said that because black people are brought up with low-self esteem they believe it and take less to education.

They have the same potential as anyone else but because of no social mobility they stay at the bottom. But now with a more progressive government and Barack Obama hopefully things will change faster. (the democrats are up to their shitty necks in corporate funding like the Republicans but at-least they will certainly do more than the previous incumbents)


Thats true but the Fascists have been successfully suppressed and the wannabe Fascists are an overestimated threat powerless to impose the type of institutional racism on Jews and people of color that the bourgeois continue to impose on people of color but not Jews.

I don't know whether employees are racist against blacks I think it is a case of african americans growing out of their past oppression and becoming equal which has taken time due to reactionary politics from the white-house preserving interests of the wealthy elite. And I don't think fascism can be under-estimated because if you look back at history that is the number one big mistake people made. With the current economic crisis or perhaps a plague swept the western world people could become desperate and vote for the far-right. I do take your point however that realistically at the current modern time black people get a worse deal in America than Jews.

[graffic]

Zionism is the primary force keeping anti-Semitism alive, in my opinion.

Well that's a bit of a flimsy argument when you think about it.

Would you blame the nation of France for the xenophobia towards the French? Probably. Because if your an anarchist or a communist or you believe in a better utopian society (like me) then you believe that nation states are a bad thing. And nation states possibly do help to generate feelings of xenephobia and racism because of the "them" and "us" idea.

Singling out the Jewish people and blaming them for their own self-determination is not really fair when you look at the rest of the world.

I think you are right that aggressive actions by the Israeli state encourage anti-semitism.

However those who are anti-semitic because of actions of the Israeli state are of course holding racist views. I appreciate for many poor and impoverished Palestinians they know no better and are overcome with emotion but for those of us in the West who can see above racial boundaries we can blame the ruling class in Israel or America for the aggression. I mean if the French bombed your country would you hate the French people and justify that attitude because of the actions of the French.

Blaming the self-determination of the Jewish people on the anti-semitic problem is an attitude held by racists.

---

I don't wish to defend Israeli politics or propound particular viewpoints. I'm interested in entertaining thoughts and exploring ideas.

[9]

Well that's a bit of a flimsy argument when you think about it.

Would you blame the nation of France for the xenophobia towards the French? Probably. Because if your an anarchist or a communist or you believe in a better utopian society (like me) then you believe that nation states are a bad thing. And nation states possibly do help to generate feelings of xenephobia and racism because of the "them" and "us" idea.

Singling out the Jewish people and blaming them for their own self-determination is not really fair when you look at the rest of the world.

I think you are right that aggressive actions by the Israeli state encourage anti-semitism.

However those who are anti-semitic because of actions of the Israeli state are of course holding racist views. I appreciate for many poor and impoverished Palestinians they know no better and are overcome with emotion but for those of us in the West who can see above racial boundaries we can blame the ruling class in Israel or America for the aggression. I mean if the French bombed your country would you hate the French people and justify that attitude because of the actions of the French.

Blaming the self-determination of the Jewish people on the anti-semitic problem is an attitude held by racists.

---

I don't wish to defend Israeli politics or propound particular viewpoints. I'm interested in entertaining thoughts and exploring ideas.

No, a flimsy argument is attempting to draw a parallel between the relationship of the French to France and the relationship of the modern Jews (predominantly Ashkenazi) to the State of Israel. "French" is a nationality defined by France, "Jew" is not a nationality defined by the State of Israel - it is not a nationality at all. We did not come from the State of Israel. The State of Israel did not define us as Jews. My family came from the Pale of Settlement, not the State of Israel and they spoke/speak Yiddish not Hebrew. Though I imagine the fact that the State of Israel suppressed the Yiddish speakers among its own citizenry as "degenerates" has received as little publicity as the rest of the State's crimes.
Furthermore, your equation of Jewish self-determination with the State of Israel is preposterous and, dare I say, offensive. There is no such thing as "Jewish self-determination", as "Jewish self-determination" is contingent upon the "self-determination" of all people, not of one ethnicity and certainly not of a non-human entity such as a nation-state.

"Singling out the Jewish people and blaming them for their own self-determination is not really fair when you look at the rest of the world."

Yes, and you - like so many other misinformed individuals - are equating "the Jewish people" (as a homogeneous entity) with the ideology of Zionism, which again, I find personally offensive. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Jewish_Labour_Union
The State of Israel does not equal the Jewish people and it does not represent "Jewish self-determination".

[Dean]

Israel is not a "white nationalist" state. White nationalists hate Jews with a burning passion!
Big fucking deal, I don't care about your semantics!


My point was that if America is only friends with Israel from an economic point why are they not be-friending the Arab states who hold all the oil. Why not forget Israel and focus on being friendly with Iran who have oil. Without Israel there is no reason for US->Arab animosity.
The U.S. is violently occupying and compromising any oil-rich state that doesn't play ball. Those that do, like Saudi Arabia, make great allies. Whats not to understand about the U.S. foreign policy? You actually think Israel is the stubling block for Iran-U.S. relations? What about the coup-de-tat and installment of a violent oppressive dictator? That couldn't be it :laugh:

[graffic]

No, a flimsy argument is attempting to draw a parallel between the relationship of the French to France and the relationship of the modern Jews (predominantly Ashkenazi) to the State of Israel. "French" is a nationality defined by France, "Jew" is not a nationality defined by the State of Israel - it is not a nationality at all. We did not come from the State of Israel. The State of Israel did not define us as Jews. My family came from the Pale of Settlement, not the State of Israel and they spoke/speak Yiddish not Hebrew. Though I imagine the fact that the State of Israel suppressed the Yiddish speakers among its own citizenry as "degenerates" has received as little publicity as the rest of the State's crimes.
Furthermore, your equation of Jewish self-determination with the State of Israel is preposterous and, dare I say, offensive. There is no such thing as "Jewish self-determination", as "Jewish self-determination" is contingent upon the "self-determination" of all people, not of one ethnicity and certainly not of a non-human entity such as a nation-state.

"Singling out the Jewish people and blaming them for their own self-determination is not really fair when you look at the rest of the world."

Yes, and you - like so many other misinformed individuals - are equating "the Jewish people" (as a homogeneous entity) with the ideology of Zionism, which again, I find personally offensive. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Jewish_Labour_Union
The State of Israel does not equal the Jewish people and it does not represent "Jewish self-determination".

Well Jews originated from the middle east and from the state of Israel. They were banished to all corners of the earth and since 1948 they have been returning to their supposed "homeland".

The majority of Jews worldwide support their self-determination. There are anti-zionist Jews ( a minority sect who interpret the Torah in a strange way and believe Israel should be formed when the "messiah" returns). The relationship of Israel to Jews is significant around the world. To deny that Israel has any connection to the Jewish people is crazy.

The divide in the left today is the usual divide between anti-fascists and anti-imperialists. The anti-imperialists make the mistake of equating Jewish self-determination with US imperialism and end up bizarrely supporting religious fascists. Opposing fascism means supporting the self-determination of the Jewish people and the self-determination of the palestinians.

[New Tet]

Big fucking deal, I don't care about your semantics!


This calls for strong moderator action. This guy is an anti-semantic!

[Stand Your Ground]

I feel that when it first started in history it just became precedent, everyone just followed and targeted the same group of people for whatever reason they wanted to cook up.

[9]

Well Jews originated from the middle east and from the state of Israel. They were banished to all corners of the earth and since 1948 they have been returning to their supposed "homeland".

The majority of Jews worldwide support their self-determination. There are anti-zionist Jews ( a minority sect who interpret the Torah in a strange way and believe Israel should be formed when the "messiah" returns). The relationship of Israel to Jews is significant around the world. To deny that Israel has any connection to the Jewish people is crazy.

The divide in the left today is the usual divide between anti-fascists and anti-imperialists. The anti-imperialists make the mistake of equating Jewish self-determination with US imperialism and end up bizarrely supporting religious fascists. Opposing fascism means supporting the self-determination of the Jewish people and the self-determination of the palestinians.

Here you go again, assuming that the State of Israel represents "Jewish self-determination". Until you can get past the propaganda that you seem to be sucking down, I'm not going to humor the rest of your uneducated comment.

[graffic]

Here you go again, assuming that the State of Israel represents "Jewish self-determination". Until you can get past the propaganda that you seem to be sucking down, I'm not going to humor the rest of your uneducated comment.

I admit that I have a slight bias because I have friends who live in Israel. I have no palestinian friends nor have I ever spoken to any palestinians. I am naturally biased but I want to present you what I believe to be facts about the situation.

I don't understand your first point. Israel is considered the national homeland for world Jewry. Whether that is a good thing or a bad thing it's largely believed around the world.

And public opinion polls within Israel reveal that 75% of Arab-Israeli's would support a constitution that "maintained Israel's status as a Jewish and democratic state while guaranteeing equal rights for minorities". The "Jewish only" or "white nationalist" slurs lazily and cornily thrown at the Israeli state are untrue.

[Kronos]

A few words from Human, All Too Human and The Dawn:


Incidentally, the whole problem of the Jews exists only in nation states, for here their energy and higher intelligence, their accumulated capital of spirit and will, gathered from generation to generation through a long schooling in suffering, must become so preponderant as to arouse mass envy and hatred. In almost all contemporary nations, therefore—in direct proportion to the degree to which they act up nationalistically—the literary obscenity is spreading of leading the Jews to slaughter as scapegoats of every conceivable public and internal misfortune. As soon as it is no longer a matter of preserving nations, but of producing the strongest possible European mixed race, the Jew is just as useful and desirable an ingredient as any other national remnant. Unpleasant, even dangerous, qualities can be found in every nation and every individual: it is cruel to demand that the Jew be an exception. In him, these qualities may even be dangerous and revolting to an unusual degree; and perhaps the young stock-exchange Jew is altogether the most disgusting invention of mankind. In spite of that, I should like to know how much one must forgive a people in a total accounting when they have had the most painful history of all peoples, not without the fault of all of us, and when one owes to them the noblest man (Christ), the purest sage (Spinoza), the most powerful book, and the most effective moral law in the world. Moreover, in the darkest times of the Middle Ages, when the Asiatic cloud masses had gathered heavily over Europe, it was Jewish free-thinkers, scholars, and physicians who clung to the banner of enlightenment and spiritual independence in the face of the harshest personal pressures and defended Europe against Asia. We owe it to their exertions, not least of all, that a more neutral, more rational, and certainly unmythical explanation of the world was eventually able to triumph again, and that the bond of culture which now links us with the enlightenment of Greco-Roman antiquity remained unbroken. If Christianity has done everything to orientalize the Occident, Judaism has helped significantly to occidentalize it again and again: in a certain sense this means as much as making Europe's task and history a continuation of the Greek.



Of the people of Israel. Among the spectacles to which the next century invites us is the decision on the fate of the European Jews. . . . Every Jew has in the history of his fathers and grandfathers a mine of examples of the coldest composure and steadfastness in terrible situations. . . .
There has been an effort to make them contemptible by treating them contemptibly for two thousand years and by barring them from access to all honors and everything honorable, thus pushing them that much deeper into the dirtier trades; and under this procedure they have certainly not become cleaner. But contemptible? They themselves have never ceased to believe in their calling to the highest things, and the virtues of all who suffer have never ceased to adorn them. The way in which they honor their fathers and their children and the rationality of their marriages and marital customs distinguish them above all Europeans. In addition, they knew how to created for themselves a feeling of power and eternal revenge out of those very trades which were abandoned to them (or to which they were abandoned); one must say, in excuse even of their usury, that without this occasional, agreeable, and useful torture of their despisers they could scarcely have preserved so long in respecting themselves. For our self-respect depends on our ability to repay the good as well as the bad. Moreover, their revenge does not easily push them too far; for they all have that free-mindedness, of the soul too, to which frequent change of location, of climate, and of the customs of neighbors and oppressors educates man. . . .
And where shall this wealth of accumulated great impressions, which Jewish history constitutes for every Jewish family, this wealth of passions, virtues, decisions, renunciations, fights, and victories of all kinds—where shall it flow, if not eventually into great spiritual men and works? Then, when the Jews can point to such gems and golden vessels as their work, such as the European peoples with their shorter and less deep experience cannot produce and never could; where Israel will have transformed its eternal revenge into an eternal blessing for Europe; then that seventh day will come once again on which the ancient Jewish god may rejoice in himself, his creation, and his chosen people—and all of us, all of us want to rejoice with him!

[9]

Wow, lovely sentiment by "Harsh_Henry14W", which I would not have seen (its already been deleted from here) were it not emailed to me. Hopefully he has been banned as well, as the "14W" in his username is an obvious reference to the White Nationalist 14-word slogan taken from Hitler's "Mein Kampf", which is as follows: "We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children."
:rolleyes:

[ls]

Meh don't worry bout it Apikoros, bored stormfront reject-trolls come along here every now and then, finding themselves quickly banned (spamming their pm inbox with pics of Mussolini hanging helps them leave).

[graffic]

Yeah there was some pretty nasty posts which I'm glad were deleted

[9]

I admit that I have a slight bias because I have friends who live in Israel. I have no palestinian friends nor have I ever spoken to any palestinians. I am naturally biased but I want to present you what I believe to be facts about the situation.

I don't understand your first point. Israel is considered the national homeland for world Jewry. Whether that is a good thing or a bad thing it's largely believed around the world.

And public opinion polls within Israel reveal that 75% of Arab-Israeli's would support a constitution that "maintained Israel's status as a Jewish and democratic state while guaranteeing equal rights for minorities". The "Jewish only" or "white nationalist" slurs lazily and cornily thrown at the Israeli state are untrue.

Here is an article I found on Marxist.com by Dekel Avshalom, a Jew living in Israel. It expands on many of the points I've already made regarding Jews, anti-Semitism, Zionism, and the State of Israel:


The crimes of the Zionist ruling class in Israel against the Palestinian people have been rightly condemned by all progressive and left people around the world. However, there are reactionary right-wing elements that try to exploit this to push an anti-Semitic agenda. Genuine socialists reject both Zionism and anti-Semitism. The solution to ethnic and national conflicts is to be found in the class struggle and socialism. We publish this contribution on the question from a Jewish Marxist living in Israel.
During and after the Israeli massacre in Gaza (http://www.marxist.com/invasion-gaza-what-it-means-1.htm), the world was flooded by an overwhelming wave of resistance to the Zionist crimes. How could anyone not protest at such a grotesque crime against a whole people, a people that has been without a genuine homeland ever since Israel was created?
However, there is also another side to this situation, an attempt by small Fascist and neo-Nazi groups in Europe to exploit this wonderful display of international solidarity to their own advantage. These forces take advantage of Zionist crimes, such as the bombing and invasion of Gaza a few months back, to promote their own anti-Semitic propaganda. They claim that these crimes and the refusal of the bourgeois governments throughout the world to intervene against them are "proof" of an inherent evil nature of Jews in general. They also use this to spread filth about the supposed desire for “world domination” on the part of the Jews. This is all reminiscent of anti-Jewish Nazi propaganda.
This attempt to divert a progressive and justified struggle along racist lines has produced its effects. Anti-Semitic crimes have risen substantially recently, particularly in Europe. The Gaza massacre gave rise to anti-Semitic incidents, not seen in Europe for quite some time. Surprisingly, the reactionary forces behind these attacks are being aided by the Jewish leaders throughout the world: they were mostly silent in taking a stand against the Zionist massacre. Mostly they collaborated with the Zionist and anti-Semitic lie that portrays Israel as the state of the Jewish people and Zionism as the national movement and sole representative of the Jewish "nation".
The truth is, that ordinary Jews from within, and particularly from without Israel have nothing to do with the massacre. They have nothing to do with Zionism altogether. But as long as they continue to support the Israeli state and the Zionist movement that gave birth to it and its crimes, the anti-Semitism fuelled by the fallacious associations made between Zionist barbarism and the Jewish people as a whole is likely to continue, putting many innocent Jews in jeopardy.


Zionism and anti-Semitism

Zionism cynically regards any criticism, as sounded and justified as it may be, against its crimes, as anti-Semitism. This, in turn, helps to confuse the progressive struggle against Zionism with the reactionary forces behind anti-Semitism. Both Zionism and anti-Semitism benefit from that confusion. It would not be the first time that Zionism and anti-Semitism have collaborated against Jews and other people. Contrary to Zionist propaganda, Zionism is not the answer to anti-Semitism. It is a form of anti-Semitism itself. Zionism began with the fear of West European petty-bourgeois Jews of a flood of Jewish immigration from Eastern Europe. They collaborated with anti-Semites on more than one occasion for a common goal: to cleanse Europe from its Jewish inhabitants (mostly poor workers) and keep them away from collaborating with the growing workers' movement, and particularly with Bolshevism.
Similar to anti-Semitism, Zionism claims that Jews are inherently different from their non-Jewish neighbours and that they cannot and should not integrate with them. So Zionism gives the anti-Semitic answer to the Jewish question: the Jews should be evacuated from Europe to a place far away.

Zionism and imperialism

Zionism in practice meant two things in the past. First of all, it promoted "Jewish" colonialism in Palestine, starting with a group of adventurers who took over Palestinian land in order to build a kind of "White settler" colony on it, and then they imported ordinary Jews as workers and soldiers to be exploited on that same stolen land. Secondly, it also embodies the practice of keeping the local workforce divided along ethnic lines, with “Jews versus Arabs”, fighting each other constantly rather than uniting against their common oppressors. This situation produced a unique opportunity for imperialism, which is the main reason why it survives until today.
After the Israeli state was created, it eventually received recognition and support from imperialism. As the Cold War developed, the Soviet Union (which had originally supported the partition of Palestine and the creation of Israel) threw its weight behind the Arab states, while American imperialism, in particular, came to understand the significance of such a state as Israel for its interests in the Middle East. Such an artificial state, which causes such antagonism amongst its neighbours will be forever dependent on imperialism, and will always need to depend heavily on the supply of arms for its survival. It thus serves as a garrison state in the service of global imperialism against the struggle of the Arab masses. This is the reason why Israel is so supported by the imperialist states. It is not because of some secretive "Jewish domination" over international capital as the anti-Semites claim. It is international capital itself, by its own logic, regardless of who "controls" it, which dictates the need for an artificial, disintegrated, hysterically violent and heavily armed state in the heart of the Arab world.

Why do Jews support Zionism?

How was it that Jews, who had always been at the forefront of the revolutionary forces in Europe, found themselves entangled in the most reactionary and barbaric forces in the world?
Initially, most Jews disregarded Zionism. Many of them loathed it. Only a minority of Jews migrated to Palestine. It took the rise of Nazi-fascism in Europe to radically change the picture. Jews that were being persecuted in Europe, their attempts to seek shelter in other countries being turned down, would go anywhere they could in search of refuge. Most of them still saw Palestine only as a last resort. They mostly fled to Latin America, North Africa, Russia, North America and other places. Only a minority found itself, not always willingly, moving to Palestine. In spite of this, an influx of Jews into Palestine did take place and it was sufficient to provide a solid base for the future Israeli state. After the Holocaust, many of the survivors were also evacuated to Palestine. The European bourgeoisie did not want to deal with the Jewish refugees and preferred their relocation to Palestine. Zionist delegations collaborated with that trend and persuaded the confused survivors to migrate to Palestine.
Today, it can be understood why the Jews who live in Israel support Zionism whether their ancestors wanted to migrate to Palestine or not. It is not just that they are constantly bombarded with Zionist propaganda from early childhood onwards. It is also because of the antagonism that Zionist colonialism has provoked in the surrounding Arab world, which pushes them to support the Zionist state as the only means for their protection.
It is less clear why Jews outside of Israel support Zionism. First of all, they do it to a far lesser extent than the Jews inside Israel. Many of the sharpest critics of Zionism are in fact Jews, and that is hardly surprising. Secondly, those who do support Zionism are doing it out for two reasons.
The first reason is that conservative Jews have come to understand that over time Jews will eventually integrate into the societies they live in. In this sense, Israel is regarded as the only place where Jews are incapable of “integrating” as there cannot be anything else but Jews.
The second reason and the more alarming one, is the vicious circle caused by the fear of anti-Semitism. Jews support Israel because they regard it as a shelter from a possible anti-Semitic resurgence, but that very support fuels anti-Semitism. This vicious circle must be broken if we want to rid the world of anti-Semitism. Zionism is not and cannot be a shelter for persecuted Jews. On the contrary, it is exactly what makes Jews easy victims of persecution. It is a convenient mechanism for keeping them apart from the societies they live in, and as long as they do not denounce this fact, loudly and clearly, it will be much easier for anti-Semitism to taint them with the crimes of Zionism.

There is no Jewish nation

Many Zionists raise what seems to be a legitimate question: don't the Jews deserve the right of self-determination like other nations? The answer to this should be unequivocal: whilst we support the right of Israeli Jews, who after all have been living in Palestine for 60 years now, to self-determination, this self-determination (based on the right of Israeli Jews to their own language and culture in the regions they inhabit) cannot be used as a justification for Zionist expansionism and occupation of another people. Nor can it be a substitute for the struggles of Jews living outside Israel, alongside their class brothers and sisters, against capitalism and racism. The answer to the plight of the Jews should not be sought in national grounds, but on social ones.
Contrary to Zionist propaganda, the Jews around the world have not been a ‘nation’ like the English, the Russian or the German nations for millennia. Jews share no common territory, they do not speak the same language, and they have different histories and different cultures. A Jew that lives in Argentina will have much more in common with his Argentine neighbours than he would have with another Jew, living in France or in Turkey. We reject unequivocally this ‘solution’ to the Jewish question proposed by the Zionists.
This is why any attempt to solve the "Jewish question" on national lines will be fallacious and harmful. The answer to the problems of anti-Semitism should be a social answer, and particularly a class answer. The struggle against anti-Semitism was always intertwined with the class struggles of society. It took the bourgeois revolutions to revoke the anti-Semitic laws and restrictions set up against the Jews in feudal times. It was also the class struggle of the proletariat that involved the fighting together of Jews and non-Jews against their common oppressors, particularly against the fascist elements who tried to no avail to separate the working class via nationalistic and anti-Semitic propaganda. Jews should not be coerced or encouraged to escape to Palestine, because there they will only be protected by the broken reed of the Zionist state, which makes the Jews under its rule more hated and vulnerable than in any other place. The labour movement should encourage Jews to stay in their respective countries, joining forces with the progressive and proletarian elements there, fighting together against any form of reaction.

Denounce Zionism, Move on to socialism!

Concentrating the Jews of the world in a small bracketed and violent state, at the expense of the native population, hated by everyone around them, is a very strange way to fight anti-Semitism. Nowadays it proves to be the main fuel for anti-Semitism in a time where such a phenomenon should have been eradicated long ago. Those Jews, in Israel or outside it, who support Zionism, end up unintentionally supporting the anti-Semitic forces which feed on this situation.
The answer to anti-Semitism is socialism. There is no way to evade that fact. Bourgeois society will always seek to divide the workers, and to lull them with reactionary fairy tails about a "glorious", "eternal" and "united" nation which can only be in conflict with other nations, never within itself. There will always be room for anti-Semitism in such an environment, and the Zionist crimes falsely associated with the Jews as a whole will make sure that this room will be ever larger. This is why we must urge anyone who regards him or herself as Jewish, to stand up against Zionism and to join forces with the progressive and revolutionary elements in his or her society. There is no other way if we desire a world without racism.
That said, socialists recognise that because Israeli Jews have lived in Palestine for over 60 years, and have developed something of a common language and culture, we reject reactionary calls (sadly sometimes seen also on the left) for them to be either ‘thrown into the sea’ or forced to live as second-class citizens in an Arab Palestine. Both the Israeli-Jewish and Palestinian peoples have the right to national, cultural and linguistic autonomy, but this is not something that can be granted by the imperialists and their ‘two-state’ solution (which in practice would mean a small, weak and divided Palestinian state under the iron heel of Israel). Only a single workers’ state of Israel/Palestine, with autonomy for both peoples but with free movement between them, and as part of a socialist federation of the Middle East, can provide these two peoples with what they desperately crave.
source: http://www.marxist.com/jews-denounce-zionism.htm

[narcomprom]

@Kronos
What Nietzsche did in Menschliches Allzumenschliches was picking up the antisemite's arguments and irrational fears and drawing them as something positive.
In his far fletched theory in Genealogie der Moral he claims any kind of compassion to be an invention the Jews made during their slavery. That jewish slave morals (Sklavenmoral) of theirs supposedly replaced the original darwinist heathen master morals (Herrenmoral) of Europe through it's christening. That story was pretty popular in the intellectual base of the Nazi party.
Nowadays people cry about how he was misread. To me it seems that being misread was part of this author's original intent.

@graffic
The only people claim Israel some kind of a national home to the Jews are Western Ideologists. I need not to add much after what Apikoros already said: The numerous Jewish ethnicities that did exist were subjected to a cultural genocide in Israel to justify their presence in that last bit of the British empire. Zionists were always a minority amongst the Jews. If there was a sizeable Jewish national movement in Europe of the 20s and 30s, it was the strictly secular Yiddish speaking Bund Apikoros linked above. They have no relation whatsoever to Israel or the Israeli nation.

Today's Israelites stem from refugees soaked up by racist criteria irrespective of their previous ethnicity and language. They adopted a dead language and a dying religion as ideology as petit bourgeois to avoid paying the bills for the education and infrastructuring of the native population and as Grand ones over the land. To Washington they are useful fools. The low point was, in my opinion, receiving "making good again (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiedergutmachung)" aid from Western Germany to give it ideological indulgence to rearm. Hans Globke, an author of the Nuremberg laws, was part of Adenauer's cabinet at that time. Hanging Eichmann was done to regain credibility as a Jewish state. What binds them now to the West? Washington would be too glad to drop them for a more popular base. They are totally dependent on it's whims.

The crazy Talmudic minority (http://jewsagainstzionism.com/) you refer to are Satmar Jews. Read up their history. I doubt they got their views only out of the talmud. They're blaming the Jewish Agency for making the genocide worse than it might have been.

[9]

@Kronos
What Nietzsche did there was picking up the antisemite's arguments and irrational fears and drawing them as something positive. That is exactly what the Jewish Studies snobs and Israeli rightwingers are doing. The only disagree about the conclusions with people like Harsh_Henry14W, their premises are the same. Nietzsche, mind that, is not an authority on the Jewish question.
In his far fletched theory in Die Genealogie der Moral he claims any kind of compassion to be an invention the Jews made during their slavery. That jewish slave morals (Sklavenmoral) of theirs supposedly replaced the original darwinist heathen master morals (Herrenmoral) of Europe through it's christening. That story was pretty popular in the intellectual base of the Nazi party.
Nowadays people cry about how he was misread. To me it seems that being misread was part of this author's original intent.

@graffic
The only people claim Israel some kind of a national home to the Jews are Western Ideologists. I need to add much after what Apikoros already said: The numerous Jewish ethnicities that did exist were subjected to a cultural genocide in Israel to somehow justify their presence in that last bit of the British empire.

Zionists were always a minority amongst the Jews. If there was a sizeable Jewish national movement in europe of the 20s and 30s, it was the strictly secular Yiddish speaking Bund Apikoros linked above. They have no relation whatsoever to Israel or the Israeli nation.

Today's Israelites stem from refugees soaked up by racist criteria irrespective of their previous ethnicity and language. They adopted a dead language and a dying religion as ideology to have a justification not to pay the bills for education and infrastructure of the native population.

To Washington they are a useful fools. Being well armed they will fulfill all it's whims afraid of being dropped for a arabophone puppet more popular in the region.

They even went as low as receiving "making good again (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiedergutmachung)" aid from Western Germany to give it enough ideological indulgence to rearm. Hans Globke, an author of the Nuremberg laws, was part of Adenauer's cabinet at that time. Eichmann was summarily hanged to save that "Jewish nation" facade.

The crazy Talmudic minority (http://jewsagainstzionism.com/) you refer to are Satmar Jews. Read up their history. They didn't get their views from the Torah or the Talmud, Torah and Talmud are tools in their struggle because the zionists primarily appeal to these books.

We seem to be in agreement on this issue, and I'm not trying to be argumentative or anything, but I do feel compelled to add one thing. I do think that, among many Jews, there is a sense of love for their culture, heritage, and history, hence, the "Jewish identity". I don't think this is a bad thing (assuming it does not imply that one's own culture is superior to other cultures). I think it has deep historical roots (though it is not a homogeneous thing) and, contrary to the occasional claim that Jews must abandon their culture and identity in order to become "properly assimilated", I think that Jews can and should embrace their culture and heritage and perhaps even use it as a springboard for advocating an "alternative diaspora" without a center (as jewdas.org puts it), in which Israel is no longer seen by most as part of the "Jewish experience". I don't think assimilation and ethno-cultural identity are mutually exclusive at all and I, personally, prefer surrounding myself with a community of rich cultural diversity as opposed to a community where everyone has the same background or no background at all, which is a bit boring IMO.
This isn't really in response to any specific comment you made, and I don't know whether you agree or disagree (or are neutral) on the matter, I just thought it was worth adding.

[progressive_lefty]

I mean that in history over time Jews have been subject to more hate than any other ethnic group. It's not an issue of who has suffered most. All racism and prejudice is grotesque I am just intrigued and interested in the reasons why the Jews have suffered so much hate because as I noted in my first post the reasons for anti-semitism are often paradoxes. Most ethnic hatred is defined whereas anti-semitism takes on many different forms.


It's an error to use the 'uniqueness' doctrine, its as harmful to non-Jews as it is to Jews. Are you trying to argue that Jewish people are therefore unique? Isn't it best to just say that Jewish people are just the same as us all, and have suffered at different points in history? Its an error to talk in terms of non-Jewish and Jewish people as being different, if you want to alienate people or add to anti-Jewish sentiment then your right on there.

[9]

It's an error to use the 'uniqueness' doctrine, its as harmful to non-Jews as it is to Jews. Are you trying to argue that Jewish people are therefore unique? Isn't it best to just say that Jewish people are just the same as us all, and have suffered at different points in history? Its an error to talk in terms of non-Jewish and Jewish people as being different, if you want to alienate people or add to anti-Jewish sentiment then your right on there.

I think anti-Jewish sentiment is - to an extent - unique in its historical manifestation (that of conspiracies, world domination, etc.). Which certainly isn't implying in any way that Jews have suffered more than other minorities historically; it is merely an observation about the bizarre form that anti-Semitism generally takes.
Though I also don't find it necessary to employ such stringent "political correctness" (for lack of a better term) as to be unwilling to recognize that different ethnocultural groups are unique from one another in different ways. In fact, I'd say the category of "Jew" is in and of itself demonstrative of a unique classification which began as a religion and today takes the form more of an ethnic group. There aren't many (any?) other examples of this, hence, it is unique in this regard. If such basic observations play into the hands of racists and anti-Semites, the problem to be addressed is general intolerance, not how to repress diversity among minority ethnic/cultural groups because it will be less likely to incite hatred from bigots. In the latter scenario, we are merely catering to the world view of the bigot, which ultimately isn't good for anyone.

[graffic]

Apikoros: Very thoughtful stuff from Marxist.com.

I agree with the majority of the position stated against radical Jewish nationalism. I agree that the only answer to anti-semitism is socialism!

But what is perceived as "zionism" in the article is only what a number of Jews subscribe to who live in the Israeli territories. I understand that Israel was founded by many of these people but I disagree with the premise that violence and oppression are a prerequisite to the existence of a Jewish state. Surely that is xenophobic in so many ways.. a) that the Jews can never get along with others and b) that Arab racism is "totally predictable". Surely the argument against the success of a Jewish state is a reaction to the most negative views of people and cultures. I appreciate the cynical view is accurate but socialism is a romantic utopian ideal.

The critique you apply to zionism fits well with the opinions and beliefs held by some of those on the right and all of those on the far-right in Israeli politics. Essentially the Marxist is critiquing the entire state of Israel under the false banner of expansionist, colonial intentions. The writer is ignoring the huge numbers of voters who vote for the labour parties and the kibbutzim movement, who are totally against most of what "zionism" stands for.

If people in the middle east can forget race, gender and religion exists then fear and chaos will be extinguished.

The right of the Jewish people to live in a collective state and respect their own culture and heritage is not the problem.

The disgusting belief of some zionists that they have racial superiority and the divine right to colonize and suppress are the problem. This racist attitude is echoed across the border in Palestine where even more people subscribe to it but in an even more medieval, backward way. Of course some communists don't like to talk about that because if you don't like US imperialism (even the pentagon is wavering on that one these days) you must be ok. Blowing up children, suppressing women and stoning gays is great so long as it is anti-capitalist. The gun waving, macho violent beings only interested in power who kill children in the name of Allah are some how "freedom fighters" but the minority extreme zionist section of Israeli society is the prime evil in the region. Democracy is priceless

[progressive_lefty]

I think its foolish to describe Arab people as being inherently anti-Jewish or slamming the Palestinians for being anti-Jewish (I am not justifying anti-Jewish sentiment), people should approach the conflict like they approach any other. When you have a war, rightly or wrongly you will have people on either side who will espouse xenophobic beliefs about the other side. It's quite unfair to say that the Arabs are inherently anti-Jewish regardless of the brutal wars that Israel has demonstrated far superior military capabilities and has boasted about its ability to send the civilians of Gaza, West Bank and Southern Lebanon a message. When the Israelis say that the reason why soo many civilians died in Gaza was because of Hamas using human sheilds, regardless of whether that is an effective public relations tool in the West, more people will hate Israel and Jews in the Middle East. Can you expect a Palesitnian who has lost half his family, has had two of his own houses destroyed in his lifetime by Israel, really care about differentiating between Jews and Zionists? Many on the extreme pro-Israel line, will argue that there can't be a Palestinian state, because the Palestinians are anti-Jewish and will always be anti-Jewish and therefore its much better that they live in a prison. The worse thing about the 'unique suffering' weapon, is that it is used as a political tool to justify the illegal creation of Jewish state that went beyond its own borders. There could have never been a Jewish state of what it is today, on the land that was originally set aside for it.

[narcomprom]

The critique you apply to zionism fits well with the opinions and beliefs held by some of those on the right and all of those on the far-right in Israeli politics. Essentially the Marxist is critiquing the entire state of Israel under the false banner of expansionist, colonial intentions. The writer is ignoring the huge numbers of voters who vote for the labour parties and the kibbutzim movement, who are totally against most of what "zionism" stands for.
Nonsense! The Israeli labour party is a zionist and most Kibbutzim don't take muslims except as wage slaves. They not any longer what they used to be.

The right of the Jewish people to live in a collective state and respect their own culture and heritage is not the problem.The main argument of the racists is that the indigenous population would soon become a majority and would replace Modern Israeli Hebrew with Modern Israeli Arabic which supposedly would be a shame because the Jews supposedly spoke Modern Israeli Hebrew since Adam and Eve.
I wouldn't dare to judge how many Israelis do believe these fairy tales but the Israeli petit bourgeois sure hate all proletarians to their guts and zionist ideology helps them to accept only those few who speak Hebrew.

Blowing up children, suppressing women and stoning gays is great so long as it is anti-capitalist.What nonsense! It is a fact most of it is done by the US or thank to it's efforts. If you don't like children, women and gays getting blown up together your only choice is to become an anti-imperialist.

The gun waving, macho violent beings only interested in power who kill children in the name of Allah are some how "freedom fighters" but the minority extreme zionist section of Israeli society is the prime evil in the region. Democracy is pricelessThe portrayal of Muslims as murderous reactionary thugs is the worst porpagandistic lie since der Stürmer stopped getting published. It is done to justify imperialism and it is a widely accepted truth that imperialism does lead to nationalist backlash. After Guantanamo, Abu Ghureib, the Shah, the Saudi Kingdom, Saddam and a million killed Iraqis it is perfectly easy to understand why so many middle easterners lose trust in western thought.
The West being a "bastion of democracy" is, by the way, bullshit as well. Israel and USA are notorious commiting worst crimes against international law and own populace. Most Blacks of Florida can't vote, nor can most bedouins of Negev. Is that your "democracy" to be protected?
http://crimesofwar.org/onnews/news-gaza7.html

[graffic]

The portrayal of Muslims as murderous reactionary thugs is the worst porpagandistic lie since der Stürmer stopped getting published.

This is not about Islam per se. What we are talking about is Islamic fundamentalism - a fanatical politico-religious ideology that would kill trade unionists, and institute medieval, religious feudalism... sort of like fascism, only less modern.

It's not good that you can agree so much more with a religious reactionary rather than a comrade like me, who strongly believes in grass root politics and radical re-distribution of wealth.

[graffic]

Nonsense! The Israeli labour party is a zionist and most Kibbutzim don't take muslims except as wage slaves. They not any longer what they used to be.



I think you are probably right on this. I like to romanticise the Israeli left because I would really like to see a peaceful solution in the middle east but I know that from a cynical, realist and rational point of view it's nothing more than a utopian dream

[narcomprom]

This is not about Islam per se. What we are talking about is Islamic fundamentalism - a fanatical politico-religious ideology that would kill trade unionists, and institute medieval, religious feudalism... sort of like fascism, only less modern.
Then call them fascists! Most people I hear trying to give me nighmares about an Islamic Fundamentalism are fascists themselves. They are really naive to believe we could so easiy forget the Nazi party playing the same shpil with a Jewish Bolshevism and a Jewish Capitalism.

Now there is Fundamentalism, there is Bolshevism and there is Capitalism and there are racists and fundamentalists to whom assigning race and religion tags to everything they consider bad is part of their daily scapegoating hatespeech routine.

"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature the heart of a heartless world and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opiate of the people"

There would be no Hamas if the Israeli state had invested into educating and emancipating the people it conquered together with Gaza.


It's not good that you can agree so much more with a religious reactionary rather than a comrade like me, who strongly believes in grass root politics and radical re-distribution of wealth.Don't you put words in my mouth! I disagree with Fundamentalists and I disagree with you because to me you sound like a hypocrite.
You have been reciting various metaphysical justifications for an Israeli nationalism but believing in a "radical re-distribution of wealth" how can you be a nationalist? The have-nots have no nations and no national interests, if you want redistribution you can only be an internationalist. With the current state of affairs nationalism benefits only the golden billion.
Israelis live a better life than Palestinians and Palestinians live a better life than either Jordanians or rural Egyptians. If we are to redistribute wealth we can't take their petty nationalist arguments at face value.

I think you are probably right on this. I like to romanticise the Israeli left because I would really like to see a peaceful solution in the middle east but I know that from a cynical, realist and rational point of view it's nothing more than a utopian dream
I don't like Avoda romanticism. I don't like apartheid Labour romanticism. I don't like Democrat, SAP or SPD romanticisms. I don't like any romanticism, in fact. The dream of a peaceful solution with the status quo maintained is not utopian but surreal.
Peace can only be acchieved by concession and compromise and not one between the ideologists of Yisrael Beitenu and the ideologists of Hamas but between the material interests of the people they are talking to.
The Kibbutzim and the Israeli mainstream left have many achievements worth imitating. Praise them for that. But don't forget to always and everywhere decry them for contradicting the original ideals. That's how we get progress.

[Pol Pot]

Jews are hated because jewish persons hapend to be in leading positions in too many situations and too many organizations that are not popular and that are commonly hated by wide mass of people. that includes early communist leadership and theories, capitalist elites and banking assosiations that exploited the workers.

these are modern reasons, the other reason, the one much older than that is the religious one, because of which people presecuted and hate them because they betrayed Jesus and because they regarded themseleves as the divinely "chosen" people and always had more children than most people.

The modern reasons for hate just merged on top of the old ones, the latest reason for hating them is their "racialy" incompatible nature as thought by nazis...

I have met and know several Jews myself and all of them except one and his family are rich.
ALthough I would not say they individually differ from other people, I would agree that you can see some differences when you look at collective image.

[Lyev]

Can people please be careful what they say? I know no ones being anti-semitic or anything by I find this quite a sensitive subject what with the Holocaust and especially cos my dad and my grandparents are Jewish.

In fact, it's quite interesting that probably the only reason I'm in the UK is because my ancestors about 100 years ago fled to Britain from the pogroms.

And Pol Pot can you please not refer to a group of people as "they"? It's just fucking pig-ignorant and you should take individuals as individuals. Not all Jews are rich and not all Muslims are terrorists, surprisingly enough.

[ls]

I have met and know several Jews myself and all of them except one and his family are rich.
ALthough I would not say they individually differ from other people, I would agree that you can see some differences when you look at collective image.

You've already made one xenophobic post on these boards, this doesn't look good what you're saying.

You should probably be banned or restricted.

[9]

Jews are hated because jewish persons hapend to be in leading positions in too many situations and too many organizations that are not popular and that are commonly hated by wide mass of people. that includes early communist leadership and theories, capitalist elites and banking assosiations that exploited the workers.

these are modern reasons, the other reason, the one much older than that is the religious one, because of which people presecuted and hate them because they betrayed Jesus and because they regarded themseleves as the divinely "chosen" people and always had more children than most people.

The modern reasons for hate just merged on top of the old ones, the latest reason for hating them is their "racialy" incompatible nature as thought by nazis...

I have met and know several Jews myself and all of them except one and his family are rich.
ALthough I would not say they individually differ from other people, I would agree that you can see some differences when you look at collective image.

The 'reasons' you cited are not causes of the hatred of Jews, they are results. Oppression of Jews long preceded Communist ideology, though one could reasonably assume that a large proportion of Jews were so interested in communism because their status as oppressed second-class citizens made such notions as liberation and equality all the more appealing. Their frequent employment in 'banking' and money lending was also a result of discrimination against them, in which they were banned from most professions in most countries, and so frequently had to resort to occupations such as these in order to provide for themselves and their families. Ironically, the results of the hatred against them only caused them to be that much more hated, so it was really a lose-lose situation.
I do love the "I know three Jews, and all of them but one are rich" generalizations, though. How cute. :lol:
It's also amusing that they are blamed for both capitalism and communism - for exploiting the workers and for advocating a workers' revolution, often in the same breath. Also, atheism, feminism, liberalism, conservatism, you name it - somehow, its the fault of teh j00z. Are you overweight? Do you have a bad case of acne? Can't get laid? Small penis? Poor grammar? Bad parenting skills? Dog that pees in the house? Pants too tight? Hairy arms? Balding? Ugly? Socially awkward? Do you stutter? Have a lisp? Missing teeth? Lost your wallet? Allergies? Engine won't start? Cleft lip? Sprained your ankle? Got fleas? Hygiene problems? Well, your solution is here: blame the Jews!! :laugh:

[9]

In fact, it's quite interesting that probably the only reason I'm in the UK is because my ancestors about 100 years ago fled to Britain from the pogroms.

The same is true for me, except the "UK" would be replaced with the "US" and "100 years" is more like "80". Is your family from the Pale?

[Robert]

Small penis?

None of your damned business.

[Lyev]

The same is true for me, except the "UK" would be replaced with the "US" and "100 years" is more like "80". Is your family from the Pale?

I'm not sure exactly where they were from, all I know is that my ancestors were Russian Jews fleeing from the Pogroms. They might of been, it's something that I've always meant to investigate.

[narcomprom]

^enjoy your ban.
It would be a pity if we banned Pol Pot. His post gives more insight than all the entire derailed thread! We can't have a thread about antisemitism without an actual antisemite.

@AGW
if they are Russian and if they fled 100 years ago, they are from the pale. The pale of settlement, cherta ossedlosti was an area where the filthy rich killers of christ were magnanimously allowed to settle. You had to become christian to travel elsewhere in Russia. Muslims were given an exception: traditionally they swept the streets.

[Pol Pot]

You've already made one xenophobic post on these boards, this doesn't look good what you're saying.

You should probably be banned or restricted.

OMG there is nothing xenophobic in what I said. I know those people and go to drinks for them and I even worked once for one when I had no job he gave me a job as a friend. I have no anti-semitic sentiments you are just too dang sensitive and nitpicking desperate too find proof that you're surrounded by evil ppl and so on.

My grandparents were both in communist partisans they both bled for the couse and there was even a member of my family in conc camp. WTF r you talking about boy.

I am dead honest and in my country there is no such nitpicking about whet we say, and neither is there any bloody explaining.

I am going out of my way to explain detailes about BS. My granddads were probably involved in some ideological purges and expulsion of ethnic germans and italians who were brought here by reich and imperio de'lla italia of mussolini. I will never apologise to any of them or even think of anything like that. And to accuse me of being a fash would in RL believe me you would not fare well (had to delete 4 times what I was goint to say cuz od "modernation'' rulez)!

Sloboda Narodu Smrt Fashizmu!!!

[9]

OMG there is nothing xenophobic in what I said. I know those people and go to drinks for them and I even worked once for one when I had no job he gave me a job as a friend. I have no anti-semitic sentiments you are just too dang sensitive and nitpicking desperate too find proof that you're surrounded by evil ppl and so on.

My grandparents were both in communist partisans they both bled for the couse and there was even a member of my family in conc camp. WTF r you talking about boy.

I am dead honest and in my country there is no such nitpicking about whet we say, and neither is there any bloody explaining.

I am going out of my way to explain detailes about BS. My granddads were probably involved in some ideological purges and expulsion of ethnic germans and italians who were brought here by reich and imperio de'lla italia of mussolini. I will never apologise to any of them or even think of anything like that. And to accuse me of being a fash would in RL believe me you would not fare well (had to delete 4 times what I was goint to say cuz od "modernation'' rulez)!

Sloboda Narodu Smrt Fashizmu!!!

Where are you from, khaver, and is there a Jewish population there?

[9]

None of your damned business.

:laugh:Don't worry, boychik, I was not specifically referring to your petseleh; it's our little secret!

[Pol Pot]

Where are you from, khaver, and is there a Jewish population there?

what is khaver?

I am from Croatia, and we have a small Jewish minority concentrated in several larger cities.

[9]

what is khaver?

It is merely a term of endearment - like comrade.


I am from Croatia, and we have a small Jewish minority concentrated in several larger cities.

Well, perhaps it is a different use of language and your comment was genuinely not demonstrative of any sort of antipathy toward Jews, but most people who read your previous comment will detect an implicit anti-Semitic sentiment.

[Pol Pot]

It is merely a term of endearment - like comrade.



Well, perhaps it is a different use of language and your comment was genuinely not demonstrative of any sort of antipathy toward Jews, but most people who read your previous comment will detect an implicit anti-Semitic sentiment.

OK, rodjo, no problem :)

I dunno, I think people are too sensitive. :(
I'm not used (and I dont think I will ever be) to filtering my own comments cuz people might interpret them this or that way around. We in the Balkans are used on daily level for most blatant racist, showinist and other sentiments to hear, and I really dont think that what I've said would qualify as anti-semitic.:confused:
In my country fashs yell "kill the ***** (put in the name of desired nation/religion/political opinion), slaughter them all" and nothing short of this. There is also a patriotic mainstream singer M.P.Thompson who sings songs that can be interpreted in many ways and fashs just pore onto his concrets most of them raising the roman/nazi salute even in front of mainstream tv.

I think its silly to accuse me!

[Lyev]

Oh cheers narcomprom, I knew what the Pale of Settlement was I just didn't realise that all Jewish people at the time were made to live there.

I assume that this whole "hate the jews" thing in Russia at the time was instigated by the Bourgeoisie Tsars of the time? If so why? What were their political motives?

[Pol Pot]

Oh cheers narcomprom, I knew what the Pale of Settlement was I just didn't realise that all Jewish people at the time were made to live there.

I assume that this whole "hate the jews" thing in Russia at the time was instigated by the Bourgeoisie Tsars of the time? If so why? What were their political motives?

Because people are anrgy. People demand real reforms. Bougroasie says: "capitalism isnt problem, its evil jews who are the problem, good russian capitalists are not exploiting you, only jewish capitalists are exploiting you"

so then ignorant masses go to church and hear stories about "jews putting children in barrels who are spiked with natil from the in-iside and drink their blood" (I am not kidding there were these stories)

And then when Jews are being persecuted the people think their own situation is improving because something is being done about "their problems"...

[narcomprom]

I assume that this whole "hate the jews" thing in Russia at the time was instigated by the Bourgeoisie Tsars of the time? If so why? What were their political motives?
The Tsars were not bourgeois, but feudal. Russia had yet to enter the capitalist stage of development, to put in Marxian terms, and the Jews and Freemasons were the bogeymen of feudalism since the 18th century. As Pol Pot correctly said the pogroms were done to alleviate social unrest.
The effect was, of course, not purely psychological. Distributing Jewish property amongst the local petty bourgeois allied the class to reactionary forces.

[Pol Pot]

The Tsars were not bourgeois, but feudal. Russia had yet to enter the capitalist stage of development, to put in Marxian terms, and the Jews and Freemasons were the bogeymen of feudalism since the 18th century. As Pol Pot correctly said the pogroms were done to alleviate social unrest.
The effect was, of course, not purely psychological. Distributing Jewish property amongst the local petty bourgeois allied the class to reactionary forces.

Those are some useful details. Although I dont know where to exactly put russia concerning its stage of economic development (then and there). I know there were still some kinds of serfdom and other backward class separations but I also think that capitalism was starting to take shape in imperial russia (?)

[narcomprom]

Those are some useful details. Although I dont know where to exactly put russia concerning its stage of economic development (then and there). I know there were still some kinds of serfdom and other backward class separations but I also think that capitalism was starting to take shape in imperial russia (?)
A majority of Russian population were de facto serfs. Tsar Alexander II. abolished serfdom in mid-19th century turning the serf effectively into peons. There was no industry and the only thing Russia was producing was wheat. In world war I. Russia didn't even produce own weapons. France armed Russian peasants sent to slaughter.
Karl Marx would not have become a Bolshevik in Russia. Communism, according to Marxist historical materialism (Primitive communism => Slave owner's society => Feudalism => Capitalism => Communism), required a phase of capitalism before a workers' republic made sense.
The majority of Russian leftist were primitive sociaists, narodniks, believing in peasant anarchism. Marxism wasn't really popular in a country were the proletarian working class wasn't larger than the nobility.
The great tragedy of 20th century Marxism was that it had to deal not with industrialised countries, as Marx himself forsaw, but with largely agrarian feudal peasant economies, as China, Russia, Romania, Yemen or Yugoslavia. They first had to industrialise and that was exploited by the imperialists to put it as if socialism was somehow less efficient.
Eastern Germany could have become a stronger economy than it's Western counterpart if that idiot of a leader, Stalin, didn't demand reparations from that ally of his for the destruction Hitler unleashed upon the peoples of Eastern Europe.

[graffic]

There would be no Hamas if the Israeli state had invested into educating and emancipating the people it conquered together with Gaza.

Thats a fair thing to say but two wrongs do not make a right. There is no justification for terror and racism.

In fact Hamas have said they like Israel because it saves them having to "go after" Jews worldwide.



You have been reciting various metaphysical justifications for an Israeli nationalism but believing in a "radical re-distribution of wealth" how can you be a nationalist? The have-nots have no nations and no national interests, if you want redistribution you can only be an internationalist. With the current state of affairs nationalism benefits only the golden billion.
Israelis live a better life than Palestinians and Palestinians live a better life than either Jordanians or rural Egyptians. If we are to redistribute wealth we can't take their petty nationalist arguments at face value.

I support the self-determination of all peoples. I don't tow the reactionary Iran/Hezbollah/Hamas line of thought that Jews are evil and Israel should be "destroyed" which so many on the far-left have embarrassingly fallen into.

There is different types of nationalism. The romantic type of nationalism such as Irish, Jewish and palestinian is not imperialistic or oppressive.

[synthesis]

I don't tow the reactionary Iran/Hezbollah/Hamas line of thought that Jews are evil and Israel should be "destroyed" which so many on the far-left have embarrassingly fallen into.

Oh, shut the fuck up. Find me someone who can be reasonably considered as "on the far left" and actually thinks that all Jews are evil and I will lick your asshole clean. Particles and all.



In fact Hamas have said they like Israel because it saves them having to "go after" Jews worldwide.

Yeah, that's what those pesky nerds call "rhetoric." If Hamas doesn't keep people's attention, the latter might find someone better capable of representing their interests in domestic and international politics.

Meanwhile, Israel has taken the practice of ethnic cleansing beyond the "rhetoric" stage - they're actually doing it (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/03/world/middleeast/03israel.html), today, with the explicit or implicit approval of anyone who could possibly make a difference in the situation.

[LeninKobaMao]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJ1jlbS0bTg
Great speech and correct in every single way.

Hate of Jews simply comes from ignorance.

[graffic]

. Find me someone who can be reasonably considered as "on the far left" and actually thinks that all Jews are evil and I will lick your asshole clean. Particles and all.

Of course there is no racism from these people. But there are some who believe in the theory of "an enemy of my enemy is my friend" and will back a smaller evil to overcome a "larger evil". I think this view is a reaction to the false idea that the West is elevated above the rest of the world.

The world is round, not flat as it appears on maps.



Meanwhile, Israel has taken the practice of ethnic cleansing beyond the "rhetoric" stage - they're actually doing it (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/03/world/middleeast/03israel.html), today, with the explicit or implicit approval of anyone who could possibly make a difference in the situation.

Israel will continue to build settlements because they do not care what the rest of the world thinks. They have been called "the most arrogant state" for a reason. Their skin has been thickened by terrorist attacks from it's neighbours (all of which are enemies) and they know that the palestinian people are being kept there as pawns by the reactionary islamic powers in the middle east. They don't give a fuck

[graffic]

And in any case the settlements mean nothing to Hamas. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1105739.html

They want to destroy Israel. Over four years since Israel evacuated settlements in Gaza and handed the land to Palestinians they continued to fire over 30,000 rockets at civilian communities. The 3 weeks of aggression by Israel was not justified but you cannot forget the 4 years of rocket fire by Hamas.

[danyboy27]

i think a lot of people misunderstand what graphic is trying to say.

basicly, he dont support israel policy to bomb to the stoneage the palestinian people, he is just upset that a lot of people ignore that there is a minority of hardcore fucknut want to destroy them.

i am pretty sure he also condemn the action taken by the other minority of hardcore fucknut of israel too.

[graffic]

Unfortunately it's not a "minority" who want to "destroy Israel' danyboy.

I appreciate and support elements of the Arab world who are interested in peace with Israel. (They don't get enough press).

But if you look at both sides the number of racist, zionist Jews is a minority within Israel society whereas the number of Islamic racists in the Arab world is unfortunately not a minority.

[danyboy27]

Unfortunately it's not a "minority" who want to "destroy Israel' danyboy.

I appreciate and support elements of the Arab world who are interested in peace with Israel. (They don't get enough press).

But if you look at both sides the number of racist, zionist Jews is a minority within Israel society whereas the number of Islamic racists in the Arab world is unfortunately not a minority.

those who talk loud often silence the voices of others.

ho yea sure there is awful shit said about tje jews in various arab countries! but who control those country? a minority of fucknut.

[ComradeOm]

I assume that this whole "hate the jews" thing in Russia at the time was instigated by the Bourgeoisie Tsars of the time? If so why? What were their political motives?In its last decades Tsarist Russia took a sharp turn towards nationalism as the country went through prolonged economic transformation. One by product of this increasingly fluid society was that the Tsar sought reassurance in images of the more primitive but supposedly better Russia of the past and the paternalist slogan of 'Autocracy, Nationalism, and Orthodoxy'. From the late 19th C this manifested itself in 'Russification' campaigns in the non-Slavic areas of the Empire, such as Finland and Poland

The Jews had never had it easy in Russia but this reactionary turn (which can be over-exaggerated, the Tsardom was never known for its liberal policies) was particularly harsh on them. They were some of the most obviously 'alien' elements in Russian society and, despite the existence of the Pale, had no homeland of their own. They were contrasted unfavourably with the 'humble but loyal' Russian peasant. All this meant that as the rest of Europe was dismantling their restrictions on Jews, Tsarist Russia was erecting more and more new laws and prohibitions. Throw in some age old religious prejudices and some encouragement from the Tsarist state you have a volatile cocktail that produced thousands of deaths

[narcomprom]

Thats a fair thing to say but two wrongs do not make a right. There is no justification for terror and racism.
Leave the justifications to moralists on either side. To me there are no justifications. There are reasons. And you know how Hamas earned the trust of the Gazans. If you don't , read up their history. The rest of your silly argumets we've discussed ad nauseam in this very thread.

You fighting windmills. An image of the left that only exists in your mind.

[verlongrimes]

Anti-semitism is somewhat natural reaction to virulent Abrahamic segregation to Us and Them. This distrust and dislike of Them (Philistines, Christians, Palestinians, ruling classes etc.) has had a cohesive impact on the people who self-identify as Jews.

[graffic]

Leave the justifications to moralists on either side. To me there are no justifications. There are reasons. And you know how Hamas earned the trust of the Gazans.


Hamas are jingoist, religous zealots only interested in power and violence who rule by fear and intimidation. They are not true representatives

[danyboy27]

Hamas are jingoist, religous zealots only interested in power and violence who rule by fear and intimidation. They are not true representatives

well at least israeli and palestinian have that in common then :thumbup1:

[Red Icepick]

Hamas are jingoist, religous zealots only interested in power and violence who rule by fear and intimidation. They are not true representatives

Hamas and Hezbollah are both secular institutions. They are Muslims, but they fight for their people not a religious ideal. Both groups have done a great deal building schools and hospitals for refugees and their impoverished populations. They don't rule by fear or intimidation, that's what Israel and their allies the USA do.

Israel can realistically be compared to the Third Reich. I don't know of any other countries that grant citizenship strictly on ethnic grounds. Israel is an evil, genocidal nation, and it doesn't matter that most Israelis are not evil, genocidal people just like it didn't matter that most Germans were jolly, chocolate-loving, lederhosen-wearing beer swillers who simply believed in being neat and tidy.

It's funny how Hamas did not exist before Israel yet you act like Hamas wants to kill all the Jews in the world. The Zionazis are the ones doing ethnic ethnic cleansing, but anyone who calls them out gets labeled "anti-semitic." Even a lot of brave Jews like Noam Chomsky get called anti-semites just because they're calling out what any decent human being could see as a grave injustice to the Palestinian people.

[bcbm]

Israel can realistically be compared to the Third Reich.

no.

[graffic]

Hamas and Hezbollah are both secular institutions. They are Muslims, but they fight for their people not a religious ideal.

Hamas is the "Islamic resistance movement" and Hizbullah translated from Arabic is "the party of God".


They don't rule by fear or intimidation, that's what Israel and their allies the USA do.

Yes, and your point being?


Israel can realistically be compared to the Third Reich.

Israel can realistically be compared to any "state" which uses violence to protect it's interests such as the U.S.A but not to the third reich because "racial supremacy" was a central tenet. I think you are wrong, although Israel was made as a state primarily for "Jews" which could be considered racist but then if you look at the constitution etc etc they do allow other peoples in, just not the palestinians at the moment...



It's funny how Hamas did not exist before Israel yet you act like Hamas wants to kill all the Jews in the world.

That's because members of Hamas have said things like that. Hamas fires rockets into Israel proper, not disputed territories, and they do not recognise any peace agreements or any Jewish state as you probably know already. Their fight is not political, it's religious and driven by teachings from the Korahn. No matter how much aggression comes from zionists it's pretty stupid to support lesser armed zealots on the other side of the border. At least in my opinion


Even a lot of brave Jews like Noam Chomsky get called anti-semites just because they're calling out what any decent human being could see as a grave injustice to the Palestinian people.

I respect Chomsky's work, he is a careful scholar and I think it's foolish for people to call him "anti-semitic". Norman Finkelstein however, I think, does verge on anti-semitism, especially in his book the "holocaust industry". If he wasn't descended from holocaust survivors he would be a "nazi" and in fact his work is apparently quoted by a lot of "far-right" organisations.

[Red Icepick]

Israel can realistically be compared to any "state" which uses violence to protect it's interests such as the U.S.A but not to the third reich because "racial supremacy" was a central tenet. I think you are wrong, although Israel was made as a state primarily for "Jews" which could be considered racist but then if you look at the constitution etc etc they do allow other peoples in, just not the palestinians at the moment...

Israel is the most racist country in the world. It's a state built around an ethnicity that openly ethnic cleanses. You're given citizenship based on being Jewish. That's not that far removed for the Third Reich giving citizenship to people simply because they're "Aryans." I generally think Third Reich comparisons are irresponsible, but in Israel's case, it's the closest reference. Sure, there are some Ethiopian Jews living in Israel, but it's bad enough to only give concessions on nationality based on religion. Imagine if Poland said, "You must be Polish or Catholic to be a citizen otherwise you are out."

Here's a recent arcticle where Netanyahu insists Israel is only for Jews:
http://www.presstv.com/detail.aspx?id=109573&sectionid=351020202
"Jews come here and Palestinians will go there. So choose. That's the basis of a solution," Netanyahu concluded.

Sounds like the Final Solution to the Palestinian Question, does it not? The Zionazis really seem to be laying the groundwork for full-on genocide.


That's because members of Hamas have said things like that. Hamas fires rockets into Israel proper, not disputed territories, and they do not recognise any peace agreements or any Jewish state as you probably know already. Their fight is not political, it's religious and driven by teachings from the Korahn. No matter how much aggression comes from zionists it's pretty stupid to support lesser armed zealots on the other side of the border. At least in my opinion

Hamas aren't firing rockets to kill Israelis. They fire them into zones to make them to dangerous to settle therefore the Israeli population retreats and hopefully refugees can have a home again. Hamas and Hezbollah, despite Islamic imagery, are secular groups. Fighting for your people makes you a zealot now? They weren't zealots before they were cleanse from their homes, funny enough. The Zionazis do their best to paint them in the light of "terrorists" and "radical Islamists," but they are just freedom fighters doing what they're forced to do.

Hamas even trained the German revolutionaries the Red Army Faction in urban guerilla warfare in their camps. They also voiced solidarity with the IRA. These are not religious zealots but true freedom fighters. They have nothing to do with fanatical Wahabi groups like Al-Qaeda.


I respect Chomsky's work, he is a careful scholar and I think it's foolish for people to call him "anti-semitic". Norman Finkelstein however, I think, does verge on anti-semitism, especially in his book the "holocaust industry". If he wasn't descended from holocaust survivors he would be a "nazi" and in fact his work is apparently quoted by a lot of "far-right" organisations.

Indeed it is foolish to call Chomsky an anti-semite. I'm unfamiliar with Finkelstein however I've heard of that book. It should be noted that Holocaust denial is genuinely anti-semitic(and anti-humanity for all of the other people murdered) and has nothing to do with anti-zionism, which is a cause any decent human being would take up.

[graffic]

You're given citizenship based on being Jewish. That's not that far removed for the Third Reich giving citizenship to people simply because they're "Aryans."

Are you completely out of your fucking mind? Israeli's don't advocate genocide against other "races", they do not preach that they are "superior" to every other "race".

Your comparison is pure fucking sick that fuels anti-semitism.


The Zionazis do their best to paint them in the light of "terrorists" and "radical Islamists," but they are just freedom fighters doing what they're forced to do.

Actually people like you betray ordinary working palestinians who want peace and are subjugated to religious fascists ruling over them telling them what is best for them. Frankly the whole situation is disgusting and an example of what happens when you mix "race", religion and "prophecy" with politics.


and has nothing to do with anti-zionism, which is a cause any decent human being would take up.

I have no problem with anti-zionism but there is no need to distort facts and compare a jewish state to aryan nazis

[Red Icepick]

Are you completely out of your fucking mind? Israeli's don't advocate genocide against other "races", they do not preach that they are "superior" to every other "race".

Your comparison is pure fucking sick that fuels anti-semitism.

No, you're defending policy that is going to fuel genocide. If you read my article, Netanyahu is about to drastically step up the ethnic cleansing campaign because "Israel is for Jews." Before WWII, people probably would have said "the Nazis don't stand for genocide. They simply want Germany for Germans." Look how that turned out! The Zionazis certainly consider themselves superior to Palestinians. That is quite obvious.

I should add that it's Israel that fuels anti-semitism. It puts people like me in a tough spot because we have to constantly remind people that not all Jews condone the evil actions of Israel, and there is a big difference between being anti-semitic and anti-zionist. A lot of anti-semites are actually pro-zionist.


Actually people like you betray ordinary working palestinians who want peace and are subjugated to religious fascists ruling over them telling them what is best for them. Frankly the whole situation is disgusting and an example of what happens when you mix "race", religion and "prophecy" with politics.

Except that's not the case. Now Hamas are the "religious fascists?" You're describing Israel but trying to pin it on the Palestinians. Typical.


I have no problem with anti-zionism but there is no need to distort facts and compare a jewish state to aryan nazis

I'm not distorting anything. I think I've been quite fair to Israel. They're the most Nazi-like country there is. In fact, Zionists used to work with the Nazis in the early days of the Third Reich. They wanted the Germans to deport Europes Jews forcibly to Israel. Adolf Eichmann dreamed of being the governor. Israel would probably have looked and acted almost identical to how it does now, except they'd have German overlords as opposed to being an independent republic.

[bcbm]

Israel is the most racist country in the world. It's a state built around an ethnicity that openly ethnic cleanses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing#21st_century

there are dozens of ongoing ethnic cleansings all over the world, many with government support. that article doesn't even mention what has been happening to ethnic minorities in italy, russia and parts of eastern europe, where there have been massive pogroms, or the situation of the tamil in sri lanka or turkey's ongoing attacks against its kurdish population. israel is hardly unique in the atrocities it is carrying out.


You're given citizenship based on being Jewish. That's not that far removed for the Third Reich giving citizenship to people simply because they're "Aryans."

because they're both racist states, they're practically identical? that's just poor logic.


I generally think Third Reich comparisons are irresponsible, but in Israel's case, it's the closest reference.

have you heard of south africa? rhodesia? french algeria? northern ireland?


Hamas even trained the German revolutionaries the Red Army Faction in urban guerilla warfare in their camps.

no, that was the popular front for the liberation of palestine (pflp), a marxist-leninist group.


They also voiced solidarity with the IRA.

no, that was the plo.


They're the most Nazi-like country there is.

yes, certainly more so than any of the totalitarian military dictatorships anywhere in the world that are also engaged in ethnic cleansing. :rolleyes:

[Red Icepick]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing#21st_century

there are dozens of ongoing ethnic cleansings all over the world, many with government support. that article doesn't even mention what has been happening to ethnic minorities in italy, russia and parts of eastern europe, where there have been massive pogroms, or the situation of the tamil in sri lanka or turkey's ongoing attacks against its kurdish population. israel is hardly unique in the atrocities it is carrying out.

Israel is quite unique in that a foreign population has displaced indigenous people. It's a modern day 'Manifest Destiny' or 'Drang nach Osten.' I have no idea what's going on in Italy, in Russia the Chechens have started the problems themselves, and I agree what has happened to the Tamils is tragic. The Turkish situation I blame on the British for their idiotic partition of the Ottoman Empire. Kurdistan should be a reality. Anyhow, all of this is still a long shot away from what's happened to the Palestinians.



because they're both racist states, they're practically identical? that's just poor logic.

have you heard of south africa? rhodesia? french algeria? northern ireland?


What makes them similar is their view of citizenship. In Nazi Germany, they would give citizenship to anyone who was an "Aryan." In Israel, they give citizenship to anyone who is a Jew. Both of them have a weird, occult-style view of ethnic supremacy.




no, that was the popular front for the liberation of palestine (pflp), a marxist-leninist group.

no, that was the plo.


My bad on this, I didn't mean to say Hamas. Frankly I thought it was the PLO in both cases.


yes, certainly more so than any of the totalitarian military dictatorships anywhere in the world that are also engaged in ethnic cleansing. :rolleyes:

No one else is slaughtering people for more Lebensraum. The Zionazi ideology is eerily similar to the Blood and Soil ideology of the SS. It's bad enough to cleanse minorities, but when you declare some divine right to a land and start forcibly removing the entire population, that is Nazi bad.

[bcbm]

once again i will ask:

have you heard of south africa? rhodesia? french algeria? northern ireland?

these states have more in common with israel than nazi germany because they are settler states which displaced indigenous groups and engaged in ethnic cleansing of an almost identical sort, particularly south africa. i would imagine they all had similar ideas on citizenship as well and so your insistence that israel is closest to nazi germany because of this one issue makes me really question the motivations for such a comparison, because frankly i think its disgusting.


No one else is slaughtering people for more Lebensraum. The Zionazi ideology is eerily similar to the Blood and Soil ideology of the SS. It's bad enough to cleanse minorities, but when you declare some divine right to a land and start forcibly removing the entire population, that is Nazi bad.

actually most of the ethnic cleansing currently occurring in the world resemble this.

[Red Icepick]

once again i will ask:

have you heard of south africa? rhodesia? french algeria? northern ireland?

these states have more in common with israel than nazi germany because they are settler states which displaced indigenous groups and engaged in ethnic cleansing of an almost identical sort, particularly south africa. i would imagine they all had similar ideas on citizenship as well and so your insistence that israel is closest to nazi germany because of this one issue makes me really question the motivations for such a comparison, because frankly i think its disgusting.

Oh yeah, now I'm an 'anti-semite' is what you're getting at? What could be my motivation other than Palestinian liberation? A lot of Jewish people agree with me. I suppose they're disgusting anti-semites? Personally I think you have secret Zionazi sympathies. I'm not saying that you can't compare Israel to these other ethnic cleansing campaigns, of course you can. I'm just saying that the Israelis have more in common with the Nazi brand than anyone. The only thing that comes close is Manifest Destiny. I don't think the Zionazis have anything in common with average Jewish people, who tend to at least be liberal and actively encourage tolerance and civil rights in the USA.

South Africa, Rhodesia, French Algeria, and Northern Ireland never had any sort of policy where they called European from around the world to settle there promising an indigenous person's home and citizenship, just like the Israelis and Nazis do. The Nazis and Israelis have much more in common. Both of them seek land that ethno-religious prophecy was supposed to grant them. What's more is that Zionists actually worked with Nazis, and Adolf Eichmann wanted to work to make Israel a reality.

I think the countries you bring up had much more in common with the Confederate South, really. They are more like parasites who needed 'inferior' people to support their needs. South Africa, for instance, never attempted to deport their African population because they needed them economically. Instead, they installed a caste system. Israel and German Lebensraum aren't just colonial projects.


actually most of the ethnic cleansing currently occurring in the world resemble this.

Really? Who else has a similar Blood and Soil ideology to seek Lebensraum?

[Red Isa]

Religion is... to put it blatantly, stupid. But growing up with a liberally religious jewish family, I've realized that Judaism is more of a culture than a religion.

[bcbm]

Oh yeah, now I'm an 'anti-semite' is what you're getting at?

no, i just think the motivation to call israel "nazi" is because it is a country of jews and this somehow carries more weight. "oh look, they can be bad guys too!" its rare to hear these comparisons to other states engaged in mass murder and dislocation of minority groups.


What could be my motivation other than Palestinian liberation? A lot of Jewish people agree with me. I suppose they're disgusting anti-semites? Personally I think you have secret Zionazi sympathies.

you have a rather active imagination. i don't think anything i've said suggests any level of support for israel's policies.


I'm not saying that you can't compare Israel to these other ethnic cleansing campaigns, of course you can. I'm just saying that the Israelis have more in common with the Nazi brand than anyone.

they've started constructing industrial death camps in israel now, have they? all non-jewish political parties have been banned and all non-jewish citizens are in ghettos with no rights? political dissidents have all been rounded up and silenced as well? there's a dictatorship? they're actively invading all of the surrounding countries?

or are they operating a settler state that has basic "democratic" rights for some citizens, like most of the examples i listed, and would presumably like nothing more than for the palestinians in the west bank and gaza to settle down so they can be exploited for cheap labor in israel proper, the condition that was largely the case until the first intifada?


South Africa, Rhodesia, French Algeria, and Northern Ireland never had any sort of policy where they called European from around the world to settle there promising an indigenous person's home and citizenship

i don't feel like bothering to look into it, but i can't imagine that uk or french citizens couldn't move to those states and be promptly awarded more resources than any indigenous person was granted. a brief look into the history of south africa also suggests it was actually a much uglier state than israel is today.


I think the countries you bring up had much more in common with the Confederate South, really. They are more like parasites who needed 'inferior' people to support their needs. South Africa, for instance, never attempted to deport their African population because they needed them economically. Instead, they installed a caste system. Israel and German Lebensraum aren't just colonial projects.


as i said before, palestinians have been economically exploited since very early on in israel's history and it was only during the first intifada that this condition shifted. i find it hard to believe, being a capitalist country, that most israeli parties outside of the extreme right would not prefer this arrangement.

[Red Icepick]

they've started constructing industrial death camps in israel now, have they? all non-jewish political parties have been banned and all non-jewish citizens are in ghettos with no rights? political dissidents have all been rounded up and silenced as well? there's a dictatorship? they're actively invading all of the surrounding countries?

There was a pittance of rights for Jewish people up until the war during Nazi Germany too. So what? There was a community of about a 1000 Africans living in Berlin for the duration of the regime without being actively oppressed(they lacked citizenship and much like Israeli minorities they didn't have to join the army). Palestinian leaders are regularly assassinated.

And are you saying they haven't invaded other countries? How about the Lebensraum-grabbing Blitzkrieg known as the 6-Day War? A supposed "pre-emptive strike" much like a lot of Nazis claim the Soviet Union was planning to attack Germany when really they just were situating defenses.


as i said before, palestinians have been economically exploited since very early on in israel's history and it was only during the first intifada that this condition shifted. i find it hard to believe, being a capitalist country, that most israeli parties outside of the extreme right would not prefer this arrangement.

I'll just go ahead and post this link again:

http://www.presstv.com/detail.aspx?id=109573

[bcbm]

There was a pittance of rights for Jewish people up until the war during Nazi Germany too. So what? There was a community of about a 1000 Africans living in Berlin for the duration of the regime without being actively oppressed(they lacked citizenship and much like Israeli minorities they didn't have to join the army). Palestinian leaders are regularly assassinated.

i think you're missing the larger point. you're comparing two different political and economic arrangements on the grounds they have similar ethnic views, though even these are carried out in different ways. this is an argument made for shock value that brings absolutely nothing to the discussion of what israel is doing to palestine. its an emotional appeal, more or less.


And are you saying they haven't invaded other countries? How about the Lebensraum-grabbing Blitzkrieg known as the 6-Day War? A supposed "pre-emptive strike" much like a lot of Nazis claim the Soviet Union was planning to attack Germany when really they just were situating defenses.

i'm aware of israel's invasions of other countries but today those countries are still on the map and not part of "greater israel," even though israel had far greater military power than any of the surrounding states.


I'll just go ahead and post this link again:

a link from the iranian english press service that brings up no other hits when key quotes are searched through google news. hmm. and of course its basically saying what has been the mainstream solution for years: that israel and palestine should be two seperate states. hell, netanyahu mentions the "full, equal rights" (yes, i know this isn't fully accurate) non-jews have. hardly a call for death camps.

[Red Icepick]

i think you're missing the larger point. you're comparing two different political and economic arrangements on the grounds they have similar ethnic views, though even these are carried out in different ways. this is an argument made for shock value that brings absolutely nothing to the discussion of what israel is doing to palestine. its an emotional appeal, more or less.

I'm not denying they're politically different(they're not actually National-Socialists), and yes they are amazingly similar in ethnic outlook. The argument is based on hypocrisy. It's based on the fact that Israel should be the exact opposite of Nazi Germany but instead it displays a striking similarity. It's a chilling irony is all. It's extremely hypocritical that groups like the ADL that used to stand for civil rights have become the Zionazi's most fanatical cheerleaders.


i'm aware of israel's invasions of other countries but today those countries are still on the map and not part of "greater israel," even though israel had far greater military power than any of the surrounding states.

Yeah, they're there just without as much land! If Germany one the war, Russia would still be there but not west of the Urals. A lot of land has been given to "Grossjudland."


a link from the iranian english press service that brings up no other hits when key quotes are searched through google news. hmm. and of course its basically saying what has been the mainstream solution for years: that israel and palestine should be two seperate states. hell, netanyahu mentions the "full, equal rights" (yes, i know this isn't fully accurate) non-jews have. hardly a call for death camps.

Don't believe the me or the Iranians? The story comes from an interview from the Washington Post if you think it's bullshit, you can read the full interview:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/23/AR2009102303591.html

He says the Palestinians need to go away on page four to make it easy for you. Obviously they're not going to call for death camps, and I have no reason to believe they'll ever make actual death camps unless they're in the heat of a total war. They're smarter than that, but the Zionazis are clearly proposing a Final Solution to the Palestinian Question.

Here's a brave IDF soldier confronting yet another radical, fundamentalist Palestinian terrorist:

http://seeingredradio.podbean.com/wp-content/blogs6/119447/uploads/400_0___10000000_0_0_0_0_0_israeli_soldier_points_ his_gun_at_a_palestinian_child_in_hebron_city_2007 .jpg

[danyboy27]

wow, people do actually argue about who are the more evil between the israeli or the palestinian?

http://waterman99.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/lame.jpg

[bcbm]

I'm not denying they're politically different(they're not actually National-Socialists), and yes they are amazingly similar in ethnic outlook. The argument is based on hypocrisy. It's based on the fact that Israel should be the exact opposite of Nazi Germany but instead it displays a striking similarity. It's a chilling irony is all. It's extremely hypocritical that groups like the ADL that used to stand for civil rights have become the Zionazi's most fanatical cheerleaders.so, as i said, its for shock value and emotional appeal. in reality israel behaves like most other settler states do.


Don't believe the me or the Iranians? The story comes from an interview from the Washington Post if you think it's bullshit, you can read the full interview:thanks.


They're smarter than that, but the Zionazis are clearly proposing a Final Solution to the Palestinian Question."Because while it is the nation state of the Jews, all the non-Jews that live here have full civil rights, participating in the Knesset and the government. I think recognizing Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people is a minimal requirement for achieving a truly successful conclusion."

he's proposing a two-state solution, which has been the mainstream consensus on a "solution" to the conflict for, what, decades now?


Here's a brave IDF soldier confronting yet another radical, fundamentalist Palestinian terrorist

that's nice, but it doesn't have anything to do with this argument. another emotional appeal.

[#FF0000]

bcbm is just saying that Israel is not comparable to the Third Reich. That does not mean Israel is not horrible.

It's just awful it's own special way, and not a, you know, Third Reich-y way.

[Red Icepick]

so, as i said, its for shock value and emotional appeal. in reality israel behaves like most other settler states do.

Really? Strafing civilians with helicopters, using human shields, bulldozing homes, and using demo charges to enter houses instead of using doors? No one else acts like that. If it's shocking or has emotional appeal, it's only because it's true.


"Because while it is the nation state of the Jews, all the non-Jews that live here have full civil rights, participating in the Knesset and the government. I think recognizing Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people is a minimal requirement for achieving a truly successful conclusion."

he's proposing a two-state solution, which has been the mainstream consensus on a "solution" to the conflict for, what, decades now?

He's talking out of both sides of his mouth is all he is doing. You can't tell the Palestinians to go there own way and say that the refugee problem must be resolved outside of Israel's borders while talking about their civil rights. You'd need to memorize the Newspeak dictionary to believe that crap.

[Red Icepick]

bcbm is just saying that Israel is not comparable to the Third Reich. That does not mean Israel is not horrible.

It's just awful it's own special way, and not a, you know, Third Reich-y way.

Yes, I realize that, and I realize this is a minor quibble. I simply think that they're absolutely comparable. There are certainly differences, but the similarities are too striking to let go. Generally I think it's irresponsible to throw around Nazi accusations, but it's pretty fitting, I think.

[bcbm]

Really? Strafing civilians with helicopters, using human shields, bulldozing homes, and using demo charges to enter houses instead of using doors? No one else acts like that.no, actually, almost every ethnic cleansing campaign conducted by a country with modern weaponry (and most countries engaged in ethnic cleansings are backed by the us and thus have these resources) looks like this. indeed, this is what most asymmetrical warfare looks like now, as other countries are taking cues from israel in how to organize their police and military forces.


He's talking out of both sides of his mouth is all he is doing. You can't tell the Palestinians to go there own way and say that the refugee problem must be resolved outside of Israel's borders while talking about their civil rights. You'd need to memorize the Newspeak dictionary to believe that crap.he's a politician, yes.

[Red Icepick]

no, actually, almost every ethnic cleansing campaign conducted by a country with modern weaponry (and most countries engaged in ethnic cleansings are backed by the us and thus have these resources) looks like this. indeed, this is what most asymmetrical warfare looks like now, as other countries are taking cues from israel in how to organize their police and military forces.

No one else behaves so arrogantly as the commit waves of war crimes. The Russians brutally crushed the Chechens and the Sinhalese just recently did the same to the Tamils, but both of these nations looked at it like dirty business to wrap up. Yes, there were terrible war crimes, but they didn't relish it or proudly produce t-shirts commemorating their crimes:

http://salonvansisyphus.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/idf-t-shirt.jpg

It's just sickening, and it reminds me of the casual atrocity tourism of the Wehrmacht. They're actually amused by their crimes, and in Israel's case, they don't hesitate to flaunt it because the Great Capitalist Empire of America is backing them up 100%. Israel is definitely an exceptional case. Even the US military in Iraq and Afghanistan doesn't act with a tenth of the brutality as the IDF does to the Palestinians.

If others start taking cues from Israel on organizing police and military, then we'll be entering the next Dark Age.

http://www.israeli-occupation.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/idf-t-shirt2.jpg

[bcbm]

No one else behaves so arrogantly as the commit waves of war crimes.

actually i think most other countries engaging in these crimes behave much more arrogantly and they usually get away with it, because most of the people who give a shit would prefer to just focus on israel and its "special status."


The Russians brutally crushed the Chechens and the Sinhalese just recently did the same to the Tamils, but both of these nations looked at it like dirty business to wrap up. Yes, there were terrible war crimes, but they didn't relish it or proudly produce t-shirts commemorating their crimes:

there is very little doubt in my mind that the people who committed atrocities in chechnya and sri lanka are proud of what they did, and often probably brag about it among their peers and nobody cares. certainly the government in russia's general policy towards racist extremism would suggest that. it is just that, once again, nobody really pays attention to these things. certainly not as many people as pay attention to everything israel and its armed forces do.

and let me be clear here for a second: it is absolutely disgusting. but i think comparisons to the nazis, or trying to say it is somehow a special kind of disgusting take away from the serious reality that this is the face of modern warfare and that many countries do just as many horrible things and get away without even a word of condemnation and that, as communists, we should be speaking out and fighting against all of these atrocities instead of focusing explicitly on the one everybody already knows about.

[Red Icepick]

actually i think most other countries engaging in these crimes behave much more arrogantly and they usually get away with it, because most of the people who give a shit would prefer to just focus on israel and its "special status."

Then where is the evidence? I can find pictures and videos to back up every crime of the IDF. Not so much with other places except the usual battle scarred cities and villages. Either way, most of these other places are acknowledged as 'bad guys.' Even if the US government might not have a problem with Chechens and Tamils getting killed, no one is glorifying the people committing the crimes.



there is very little doubt in my mind that the people who committed atrocities in chechnya and sri lanka are proud of what they did, and often probably brag about it among their peers and nobody cares. certainly the government in russia's general policy towards racist extremism would suggest that. it is just that, once again, nobody really pays attention to these things. certainly not as many people as pay attention to everything israel and its armed forces do.

and let me be clear here for a second: it is absolutely disgusting. but i think comparisons to the nazis, or trying to say it is somehow a special kind of disgusting take away from the serious reality that this is the face of modern warfare and that many countries do just as many horrible things and get away without even a word of condemnation and that, as communists, we should be speaking out and fighting against all of these atrocities instead of focusing explicitly on the one everybody already knows about.


Probably you are right, those people probably are quite proud of their crimes, but they are still not as internationally vocal about it as Israel. Another thing, from where I'm standing there is not much I can do to protest what Russia does. However, my government is a very large supplier of arms to Israel and considers them a key ally. So from my standpoint, it's more likely I can do something, and I feel I have more of a responsibility to more so than other with other criminal regimes around the world that aren't as connected to me and my government.

Our government is filled with Zionazis, Jews and gentiles alike. I was hoping that President Obama would have changed that at least somewhat in the right direction, but that's been betrayed. Joe Biden and Rahm Emmanuelle are two of the biggest creeps around, and they hold top billing.

Saying that Israel is simply conducting modern warfare is such a cop-out though. I don't believe that for a second. The US military and NATO are both terrible, imperialist institutions, but neither comes anywhere close to the crimes of the IDF. Your average kid US Marine is actually naive enough to believe he's bringing freedom to Iraq. The IDF is under no such illusion. They view themselves as superior, and they treat the Palestinians with absolute contempt and brutality. There is no 'hearts and minds' campaign about it. Yet the US is supposed to show 'Solidarity with Israel' because they're the only democracy in the region is how the story goes?

If you don't see any parallels between the Zionists and the Nazis, I think you're purposely dissuading yourself. They pop out clear as day. Israel should have a responsibility to act exactly the opposite of the Nazis, not 'sort-of different.'

[bcbm]

Then where is the evidence? I can find pictures and videos to back up every crime of the IDF. Not so much with other places except the usual battle scarred cities and villages. Either way, most of these other places are acknowledged as 'bad guys.' Even if the US government might not have a problem with Chechens and Tamils getting killed, no one is glorifying the people committing the crimes.

Probably you are right, those people probably are quite proud of their crimes, but they are still not as internationally vocal about it as Israel.

again, it comes back to the issue of how much international attention is paid to these various crimes and those who carry them out. i don't think it is horribly inaccurate to say much more attention is paid to what is going on in israel than what is happening in chechnya, sri lanka, burma, turkey, etc combined.


Another thing, from where I'm standing there is not much I can do to protest what Russia does. However, my government is a very large supplier of arms to Israel and considers them a key ally. So from my standpoint, it's more likely I can do something, and I feel I have more of a responsibility to more so than other with other criminal regimes around the world that aren't as connected to me and my government.

i think from the perspective of people not living in any of these countries, most protests, etc will have about the same effect. regardless, a number of countries committing atrocities are supported by western nations.


Saying that Israel is simply conducting modern warfare is such a cop-out though. I don't believe that for a second.

almost every modern "counter-insurgency" campaign is based off of strategies primarily developed in israel, generally mixed with other imperialist projects.


The US military and NATO are both terrible, imperialist institutions, but neither comes anywhere close to the crimes of the IDF. Your average kid US Marine is actually naive enough to believe he's bringing freedom to Iraq. The IDF is under no such illusion.

do you have any evidence to back this up? there have been enough war crimes committed in iraq and afghanistan to rule out the idea that its just a few individuals with problems, in my opinion.


If you don't see any parallels between the Zionists and the Nazis, I think you're purposely dissuading yourself. They pop out clear as day.

i think there are similarities between the nazis and most racist states bent on extermination and expansion. i don't think any modern state comes close to the nazis and find such comparisons lacking in any real value to a discussion. again, its an emotional appeal because we all know nazis are the absolute evil and so if something is like the nazis...

it doesn't address any of the objective conditions or move forward discussion in a meaningful way.

[bcbm]

and feel free to have the last word on this, i don't really give a shit enough to keep arguing.

[Red Icepick]

again, it comes back to the issue of how much international attention is paid to these various crimes and those who carry them out. i don't think it is horribly inaccurate to say much more attention is paid to what is going on in israel than what is happening in chechnya, sri lanka, burma, turkey, etc combined.

I think a lot of that is because people have racist notions that these other countries are naturally violent savages, and that Israel is supposed to conduct itself like the 'civilized' world. Also, people in the US are watching Israel because they're realizing why monsters like Osama Bin Laden have been created and are so hell-bent on destroying us: because we support the intolerant, oppressive Israel that terrorizes their people.


almost every modern "counter-insurgency" campaign is based off of strategies primarily developed in israel, generally mixed with other imperialist projects.

Not at all. The US has based a lot of Iraq on the UK's experience in Ireland, and a lot of the lessons it's learned in previous conflicts. Even the Soviet experience in Afghanistan is considered more valuable. The counterinsurgency campaigns are completely different.


do you have any evidence to back this up? there have been enough war crimes committed in iraq and afghanistan to rule out the idea that its just a few individuals with problems, in my opinion.

Yes, the war crimes of the US are generally held as such. Israel's war crimes are Standard Operating Procedure. For instance, using human shields wouldn't be tolerated by the US military in Iraq or Afghanistan. They also wouldn't blow holes in people's houses to enter and exit so that possible snipers can't track their movement. Nor does the US use bulldozers to flatten houses and evict residents. The US is trying to win over the people, the Zionazis are not doing that at all.


i think there are similarities between the nazis and most racist states bent on extermination and expansion. i don't think any modern state comes close to the nazis and find such comparisons lacking in any real value to a discussion. again, its an emotional appeal because we all know nazis are the absolute evil and so if something is like the nazis...

The Israelis shouldn't behave like Nazis period. Everyone hates the Nazis, but the Jewish people really do. So why is Israel, who is supposed to represent them, behaving in this way that draws such obvious comparisons with Israel? I think it's important to point that out. The Israelis say "Never again!" but then they just do it themselves. Hypocrisy is detestable, especially this brand of it. You've yet to disprove any of my points on how they are similar, instead you just say "Oh, these guys were also similar" and point to defunct colonial states. That is unacceptable. Israel should not be waging wars for Blood and Soil, they shouldn't be strictly inclusive of their own ethnic group, and they shouldn't be cleansing 'inferior' ethnicities from their homes. I call it as I see it, and that is that.


and feel free to have the last word on this, i don't really give a shit enough to keep arguing.

Frankly, I think I made my point with my first post, if "don't really give a shit" than freel free to piss off. I don't mind this exchange of ideas, personally, I actually enjoy it.

People on this forum are some of the snarkiest motherfuckers I've ever met.

[bcbm]

Frankly, I think I made my point with my first post, if "don't really give a shit" than freel free to piss off. I don't mind this exchange of ideas, personally, I actually enjoy it.

People on this forum are some of the snarkiest motherfuckers I've ever met.

i'm not trying to be snarky, or rude, this just isn't an issue i care enough about to keep going back and forth. i think i've made my point and its pretty obvious neither of us will agree to what the other is saying, so i don't see any reason to keep saying the same things towards each other forever, that's all.

[Red Icepick]

i'm not trying to be snarky, or rude, this just isn't an issue i care enough about to keep going back and forth. i think i've made my point and its pretty obvious neither of us will agree to what the other is saying, so i don't see any reason to keep saying the same things towards each other forever, that's all.

That's fair enough.

[verlongrimes]

It's crazy that on a forum like this there is people defending the racist State of Israel. Trying to be so revolutionary in country X while preaching reactionary bs for country Y... it shows where people's loyalties are.

[rhys]

I hear the "Jews are not an ethno-cultural group" case put forward a lot, as well as the "Jew is a term for someone who adheres to Judaism and nothing more". And I generally sympathize with what the person is saying, but - just out of personal experience - I have to disagree. I think most people can acknowledge that, while they can't really put their finger on it, there is something defining about many Jews that can really only be described as "eccentric" or "peculiar" - there's even a word for it in Yiddish - this peculiarity among Jews. It is referred to as "Yiddishkeit" ('Jewishness').


You could say that about any group at all, I think: characteristic survive a generation or two because of upbringing. If it hadn't been for Hitler, though, would Jewish ancestry be of any more interest to anyone than, say, Huguenot ancestry? I believe that now - insofar as there is any real awareness of non-religious 'Jewishness' at all, and there's not a lot - it has more to do with the ambivalent position of people towards 'Israel'. Is it really possible for any socialist NOT to see it as a peculiarly loathsome racist colony? And is it really possible for someone of Jewish background who understands how the colony was formed/has relatives there NOT sometimes to feel some sort of sympathy for some of what happens? Not to mention that the Zionists try all the time to work up the idea of 'anti-semitism' which is their major selling-point. It is a matter for principled sympathy and principled rejection, I think.

[graffic]

Not really because most people on the left support a two-state solution - Israel withdrawing from the occupied palestinian territories. Internationalism starts with recognising the self-determination of individual peoples, just because at the moment in time, the Jewish have the US backing, which is not fixed, their self-determination is "colonial, racist etc etc", whereas palestinian struggle is righteous and revolutionary. If US switched support to palestine and Israel was slowly usurped would you still support the palestinian struggle? Surely to end capitalism, workers must support the right of the Jewish and the palestinian to their self-determination and end the global multi-national corporation plague which exists because of the US empire. Jewish people and Palestinian have different culture and different background which should be respected, as Marx said the process to eliminating racial and class boundaries is a slow one which can last generations. I think the "zionists working up the idea of anti-semitism" is no different to the Palestinian's working up the idea of themselves being victims. Of course they are victims but they often try and blame everything on a "jewish" state. It's not because there is a "Jewish Yisrael" state it is because of capitalism and un-even power balance. The fact that one side is "Jewish" has nothing to do with it. I'm rambling on here and probably barking up the wrong tree so I will stop.