What is National Bolshevism?

[LeninKobaMao]

What exactly is National Bolshevism and what do they want to achieve?

(I am new here if I put this thread in a wrong section or asked a question i'm not allowed to ask please move it or delete it)

Please reply people.

[ComradeOm]

Welcome to the forum! And yes, your thread in in the right place

See here (http://www.revleft.com/vb/national-bolshevism-t106220/index.html?t=106220) and here (http://www.revleft.com/vb/national-bolshevik-t101767/index.html?t=101767). In both threads I believe my first description of their policies was "batshit insane"

[LeninKobaMao]

Thanks for the greeting and I agree with you I think they are just Nazi's but with a Hammer And Sickle instead of a Swastika but I was never sure what they exactly stand for but anyways they make me so angry :mad:

[Rjevan]

First of all, welcome! :)

The both threads which ComradeOm linked to are already full of information but here's a short overview:
National Bolshevism was developed in the 1920s in both Germany and Russia at the same time. In Germany main National Bolsheviks were Ernst Niekisch and Karlo Otto Paetel, strong nationalists and Prussia admireres who thought that not only the working class but the whole population of a country are the revolutionary forces who should overthrow the current system and build a social, Marxist-like society but also based on nationalism and militarism. They further wanted an alliance with the USSR and the isolation of Germany from the west. Niekisch dreamed of a socialist Prussian empire but he critizised Hitler heavily and called him "the German doom" in one of his books:
http://www.bublies-verlag.de/media/niek-hitler-verhaengnis-30mm.jpg

He was imprisoned and tortured by the Nazis but later saved by the Red Army.
Paetel also vehemently critizised the NSDAP and had to go into exile where he published his theories together with various nationalist and socialist groups.

In Russia Nikolai Ustralinov, a militant nationalist who fought for the Whites in the civil war, got strongly impressed by the achievements of the Bolsheviks later and drew the conclusion that Bolshevism together with nationalism would be the best system. He was shot for counter-revolutionary activity in 1937.

Today the most important National Bolshevik movement are the Russian "Nazbol", led by Edward Limonov, an author and ex-emigrant who returned to the USSR during Gorbachev's perestroika and glasnost:
http://www.finrosforum.fi/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/limonov.jpg

These fellows are a strange mixture of anti-Hitler fascists and disappointed socialists, the Nazbol are a youth movement and aim at disappointed youths. They are pretty confused, in the one moment they praise the achievements of fascism and in the next they walk along communist youth groups and demonstrate against "fascist Putin" and for "true democracy". They want to combine nationalism with communism and "the positive things from the right with the positive things from the left". The sad thing is that they obviously attract some genuine leftists, who see the Nazbols as the only real vanguard, since the Nazbols are very active, there's nearly no political demonstartion in Russia without surprisingly many militant Nazbols who are known for spectacular actions like occupying a city hall during one of Putin's visits, showing banners with "The Czar won't come through!".

There are also two kinds of Nazbols, the hardcore right-wing National Bolshevik Front (NBF, smaller than the NBP), built after Alexander Dugin, who founded the NBP together with Limonov left the NBP and claimed that Linonov "sold us out to the Zionists" and Limonov's National Bolshevik Party (NBP, officially banned, but still more active than ever), wannabe "leftists", who work together with Kasparov's opposition party and communist groups. But still, they are no communists, even though the Russian media presents them like that sometimes.

Here's there English info site: http://nazbol.cc/

[LeninKobaMao]

Thanks for the greeting and thank you for the overview. They really are idiots. Are they popular in Russia? Do you know how many supporters they have?

[NecroCommie]

National bolshevism is a bastard child of the Stalins "communist nationalism". It basically is some sort of russian fascism, but its supposed to be OK because it has a left wing party in its name.

[LeninKobaMao]

National bolshevism is a bastard child of the Stalins "communist nationalism". It basically is some sort of russian fascism, but its supposed to be OK because it has a left wing party in its name.

That is exactly what I think it's basically a whole heap of Nazi's hiding under a red cloak.

[Rjevan]

Thanks for the greeting and thank you for the overview. They really are idiots. Are they popular in Russia? Do you know how many supporters they have?
Yes, they are quite popular in Russia, no real political power at the moment but they are demonstrating, making trouble and they are very active and present. They also get support from Kasparov and his allies. According to the Russian Wikipedia entry they have "over 56.500" members, at least this was the case in 2007, I guess their number has growed and since they're officially illegal and the media works against them as much as possible it's pretty hard to get an accurate number of their members and supporters. But I remember a graphic which showed how many members the political youth organisations in Russia have and the Nazbols were only beaten by "Nashi" (Ours), Putin's youth organisation (which is sometimes called "Nazhisti" (Nazi+fashisti) by the Nazbols) but straight after Nashi there were the Nazbols with the second most youth members (which is small wonder, since Nazbols mainly aim at youths, as I said before).

Btw, Limonov is running for presidency in 2012, the Nazbols already make a great fuss about this but first he needs 2 million signatures and I doubt that he will get them. Even if, he's without a chance.

[scarletghoul]

So are they anti-semitic? what is their stance on the Jews?

[LeninKobaMao]

[QUOTE=Rjevan;1492977]Yes, they are quite popular in Russia, no real political power at the moment but they are demonstrating, making trouble and they are very active and present. They also get support from Kasparov and his allies. According to the Russian Wikipedia entry they have "over 56.500" members, at least this was the case in 2007.

Oh no hopefully something bad hapens and they just dissolve.

[LeninKobaMao]

So are they anti-semitic? what is their stance on the Jews?

From what I have heard they seem to be.

[Rjevan]

So are they anti-semitic? what is their stance on the Jews?
Hm, hard to say, the NBF is hardcore anti-semitic ("Limonov sold us out to the Zionists!"), they are nothing but plain Nazis who get turned on by "USSR glory" and -symbols.

The NBP vehemently denies that they are racist and since Dugin left they are much more concentrated on "Putin must die!", than on racism; I have never seen that Limonov or NBP members went against Jews since Dugin left (and I'm not sure if Limonov ever did so), this seems not part of their tactic, they are mainly anti-USA but this passionately:
http://www.narodni-bolsevik.org/Art/Umeni/d2396.jpg (http://www.narodni-bolsevik.org/Art/Umeni/2396.jpg)

If you go through the NB websites you won't see any "ZOG is behind everything!" and "Jewish teacher abuses little white girls!!!"-nonsense like that you have to bear on stromfront and other nazi-sites, they are totally concentrated on bashing Mr Putin and America. They see themselves not as racists, sometimes they even have antifa symbols and the Nazbol leader of Latvia is a black immigrant from Ethiopia (but the Latvian branch seems to be more on the left side anyway, they take part in anti-SS commemorate marches, SS troops are celebrated by the fascists in the baltics annually as "liberators from Bolshevism"):
http://dvinsk.front.ru/foto/2005/035.jpg

Their programme says (pretty bad translation but I think you understand what is meant):

ENEMIES
2. Foreign enemies of National-bolshevism: the large Satan - USA and mondialists of Europe, incorporated in NATO and UN. Internal enemies: a class of "jackets" - boyars - bureaucrats, marauders - "new Russian", cosmopolitan intelligentsia.

23. Russian is defined not on blood and not on creed. THE ONE WHO CONSIDERS RUSSIAN LANGUAGE AND RUSSIAN CULTURE – HIS OWN, HISTORY of RUSSIA – HIS OWN HISTORY, WHO HAS SPILLED AND IS READY TO SPILL THE OWN AND ANOTHER'S BLOOD IN A NAME OF RUSSIA AND ONLY FOR IT, ANY OTHER NATIVE LAND AND NATION DOES NOT THINK, IS RUSSIAN.

Nevertheless the NBP was oficcially banned because of promoting racism...

[LOLseph Stalin]

First of all, welcome! :)
Today the most important National Bolshevik movement are the Russian "Nazbol", led by Edward Limonov, an author and ex-emigrant who returned to the USSR during Gorbachev's perestroika and glasnost:
http://www.finrosforum.fi/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/limonov.jpg


I always hated how that guy looked like Leon Trotsky! :mad:

[khad]

There are also two kinds of Nazbols, the hardcore right-wing National Bolshevik Front (NBF, smaller than the NBP), built after Alexander Dugin, who founded the NBP together with Limonov left the NBP and claimed that Linonov "sold us out to the Zionists" and Limonov's National Bolshevik Party (NBP, officially banned, but still more active than ever), wannabe "leftists", who work together with Kasparov's opposition party and communist groups. But still, they are no communists, even though the Russian media presents them like that sometimes.

Here's there English info site: http://nazbol.cc/

1. You forgot to mention that the NBP in Russia is now working with Kasparov's march of the discontented, primarily liberals but also with a component of religious freaks and monarchists. Compared to a few years back, their website has been falling apart. The last update on their Russian site was in January of last year: http://www.nbp-info.ru/

2. While the NBP is not explicitly racist, they have been moving rightward in their politics for a while. In recent years they've had a gun ownership campaign (modeling itself after the Western frontier myth bullshit, I suppose), with the implication that people need to defend themselves against immigrants. Limonov has actually labeled another youth group, the Vanguard of Red Youth, "extremists" because they did not support their anti-immigration agendas.

[Agrippa]

Marxist-Leninist explanation of National Bolsheviks: Something a bunch of mean fascists made up to discredit and co-opt the communist movement.

anarchist explanation of National Bolsheviks: The smoking gun on the claim that fascism and bureaucratic revolutionary socialism reside in the same ball-park of the political spectrum.

[khad]

Marxist-Leninist explanation of National Bolsheviks: Something a bunch of mean fascists made up to discredit and co-opt the communist movement.

anarchist explanation of National Bolsheviks: The smoking gun on the claim that fascism and bureaucratic revolutionary socialism reside in the same ball-park of the political spectrum.
It's a bit more complicated than that. I would consider them more deluded than anything else. The historical Nazbols got their asses murdered by both the Nazi and Soviet states, in the former for being too pro-worker, and in the latter for being freaks of questionable czarist background.


Yes, they are quite popular in Russia, no real political power at the moment but they are demonstrating, making trouble and they are very active and present. They also get support from Kasparov and his allies. According to the Russian Wikipedia entry they have "over 56.500" members, at least this was the case in 2007, I guess their number has growed and since they're officially illegal and the media works against them as much as possible it's pretty hard to get an accurate number of their members and supporters. But I remember a graphic which showed how many members the political youth organisations in Russia have and the Nazbols were only beaten by "Nashi" (Ours), Putin's youth organisation (which is sometimes called "Nazhisti" (Nazi+fashisti) by the Nazbols) but straight after Nashi there were the Nazbols with the second most youth members (which is small wonder, since Nazbols mainly aim at youths, as I said before).

I doubt those numbers. They've had a serious split a few years ago, and the core party is now fractured between the NBP and the "NBP without Limonov." Others left the party when they jumped in bed with the liberals and religious freaks. Whatever cohesion they had, it's even less now. That 56,000 figure probably includes people who aren't even part of Limonov's group anymore.

Look at these freaks. NBP and religious/monarchist banners flying side-by-side:
http://nbp-info.ru/archiv/131204/IMAG0010_2.jpg

[redasheville]

Marxist-Leninist explanation of National Bolsheviks: Something a bunch of mean fascists made up to discredit and co-opt the communist movement.

anarchist explanation of National Bolsheviks: The smoking gun on the claim that fascism and bureaucratic revolutionary socialism reside in the same ball-park of the political spectrum.

Ahahaha. Well what does it mean then that there is a group in the Bay Area (and, more prominently, in Australia) called the "National Anarchists". I can't post links so you should do a quick search.

[redasheville]

Also, Agrippa's post is especially silly considering co-opting left wing movements is what fascists have been doing since like forever.

[Agrippa]

Ahahaha. Well what does it mean then that there is a group in the Bay Area (and, more prominently, in Australia) called the "National Anarchists". I can't post links so you should do a quick search.

But, in my opinion, NAs have more ideologically in common with Bolsheviks than they do with "real" anarchists. There is not much variation, in terms of ideological content, between National Bolshevism and National Anarchism. Both are forms of right-populist protectionism, which, as a political phenomenon, has more in common with Bolshevism than libertarian communism, IMHO.

Edit: I also did not discount the possibility that fascism and anarchism may be closely related. However, I feel that even if fascism and anarchism ask the same question, the answer is always profoundly different.

[khad]

But, in my opinion, NAs have more ideologically in common with Bolsheviks than they do with "real" anarchists. There is not much variation, in terms of ideological content, between National Bolshevism and National Anarchism. Both are forms of right-populist protectionism, which, as a political phenomenon, has more in common with Bolshevism than libertarian communism, IMHO.

It would be hard to label the NBP left, right, or anything. Their ideology, or what they consider to be their ideology, is so scatterbrained as to be meaningless. They're working with the pro-Western liberals now, and they take American money. What does that tell you?

[Agrippa]

Well, those terms have limited semantic use, and the third position usually tends to be where they break apart. National Bolshevism has ideological elements from both the left and right, and is a good example of how left-wing and right-wing ideas tend to intersect and overlap.


Their ideology, or what they consider to be their ideology, is so scatterbrained as to be meaningless. I don't think so. I don't think their ideology is any more "scatterbrained" than that of a liberal democrat.


They're working with the pro-Western liberals now, and they take American money. What does that tell you?I don't know. Plenty of nutty political factions have gotten money from all sorts of strange places. Would it be any better if they were being financed by Putin?

[Dimentio]

They are quite strange. But the entire political spectrum is twisting and turning everywhere.

Here in Sweden, the most violent debates right now are between nazis and fascists.

The new arch-saint of the Swedish nazi scene is a Half-persian islamist poet named Mohamed Omar who on his blog is interviewing all known antisemites in Sweden.

Market liberals, zionists and fascists in their turn are attacking him as a right-wing or left-wing extremist, an islamist and an antisemite.

Swedish fascists are generally pro-Israel and islamophobic.

[Agrippa]

They are quite strange. But the entire political spectrum is twisting and turning everywhere.

Here in Sweden, the most violent debates right now are between nazis and fascists.

The new arch-saint of the Swedish nazi scene is a Half-persian islamist poet named Mohamed Omar who on his blog is interviewing all known antisemites in Sweden.

Market liberals, zionists and fascists in their turn are attacking him as a right-wing or left-wing extremist, an islamist and an antisemite.

Swedish fascists are generally pro-Israel and islamophobic.

Just to clarify, are you referencing the sort of ideological divide that existed between classical Italian fascists on the one hand and classical German Nazis on the other? Or are you using some other definition of "nazi" and "fascist"?

In the US, all Nazis are fascists, but not all fascists are Nazis.

[Dimentio]

Just to clarify, are you referencing the sort of ideological divide that existed between classical Italian fascists on the one hand and classical German Nazis on the other? Or are you using some other definition of "nazi" and "fascist"?

In the US, all Nazis are fascists, but not all fascists are Nazis.

Nah...

"Fascists" in Sweden are the Sweden Democrats, a party which is a reformed "former" fascist party. Since 1995, they have turned 180 degrees from antisemitism to militant zionism. Nowadays, they are instead just islamophobes. They are led by Jimmie Åkesson. In the US, they would probably not be considered fascist. They would just be like right-wing anti-immigrationist republicans. But in Sweden, they are considered fascist, since Sweden is a comparably left-leaning country in general (our conservative party would in the USA be considered to stand to the left of the left democrats, Fredrik Reinfeldt would have been considered a socialist).

Nazis are all those who were thrown out of the SD when the SD decided that it was'nt so smart being antisemitic. Mostly the national democrats, but also the people's front and the Swedish resistance movement.

There is also have a small but growing community of "traditionalists" inspired by the French New Right. They have a discussion forum/community called nordisk.nu and a blog portal called motpol.nu

This latest group has now got mr Omar as their guru.

Ahmadinejad is their hero and everything glorifying the regime in Iran is trendy amongst that crowd right now, so much that they even imagine some sort of alliance between islamists and nazis.

[Agrippa]

Nah...

"Fascists" in Sweden are the Sweden Democrats, a party which is a reformed "former" fascist party. Since 1995, they have turned 180 degrees from antisemitism to militant zionism. Nowadays, they are instead just islamophobes. They are led by Jimmie Åkesson. In the US, they would probably not be considered fascist. They would just be like right-wing anti-immigrationist republicans. But in Sweden, they are considered fascist, since Sweden is a comparably left-leaning country in general (our conservative party would in the USA be considered to stand to the left of the left democrats, Fredrik Reinfeldt would have been considered a socialist).

Nazis are all those who were thrown out of the SD when the SD decided that it was'nt so smart being antisemitic. Mostly the national democrats, but also the people's front and the Swedish resistance movement.

Now it makes more sense.


they even imagine some sort of alliance between islamists and nazis.

That sentiment is very prevalent amongst US fascists as well, in fact it's probably the position held by the majority of Nazis in the US.

[Dimentio]

In this movie-clip, CBN interviews the Sweden Democrats.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaPz7p-1-bk

This movie-clip is about 20 years old. The guy seventeen seconds in the video is an early Sweden Democrat. I must say they have actually become a bit smarter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1VOhEwdNPU

[LeninKobaMao]

Thanks for the replies guys seems as though I hit 2 birds with one stone learning about National Bolshevism and Swedish Fascism :)

[Rjevan]

1. You forgot to mention that the NBP in Russia is now working with Kasparov's march of the discontented, primarily liberals but also with a component of religious freaks and monarchists. Compared to a few years back, their website has been falling apart. The last update on their Russian site was in January of last year: http://www.nbp-info.ru/

This is their old website, their new one, updated and as I said, very active, is this: http://www.nazbol.ru
If you can stand it you can also read Limonov's "The other Russia" (http://www.nazbol.ru/rubr23/index0/2476.html) on there, it's somewhat the core of the NBP ideology but Eddy has denied and altered many things over the years, so this book can only be seen as relevant on certain parts of the Nazbol ideology, some parts even contradict their current views.

For anyone who's interested, here is an English interview with Limonov:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3Yvh-bSawA


I doubt those numbers. They've had a serious split a few years ago, and the core party is now fractured between the NBP and the "NBP without Limonov." Yes, that's the NBF, they called themselves "NBP without Limonov" before coming up with "National Bolshevik Front". The split happened before 2007, so these numbers could be correct and I don't doubt them very much, you always have to consider how big Russia is and how many people just live in Moscow and therefore 56.000 is really not that much.

Btw, nice ava, LeninKobaMao! ;)

[khad]

This is their old website, their new one, updated and as I said, very active, is this: http://www.nazbol.ru
If you can stand it you can also read Limonov's "The other Russia" (http://www.nazbol.ru/rubr23/index0/2476.html) on there, it's somewhat the core of the NBP ideology but Eddy has denied and altered many things over the years, so this book can only be seen as relevant on certain parts of the Nazbol ideology, some parts even contradict their current views.

That's interesting. The few times I tried that link in the past I wasn't able to connect to the site. I had just assumed that they were full of shit.

[Rjevan]

No, it was becuase their site was hacked recently, it wasn't available for ages and they complained bitterly about "the government's failed plan to silence the only real opposition". :lol:

[mykittyhasaboner]

http://dvinsk.front.ru/foto/2005/035.jpg



Why is the girl wearing a German flag (maybe its Belgian, one or the other) patch? Some Russian nationalist. :rolleyes::lol:

[khad]

Why is the girl wearing a German flag (maybe its Belgian, one or the other) patch? Some Russian nationalist. :rolleyes::lol:
It's a Bundeswehr jacket. You have to realize that these people worship German militarism. If you look on their website, there are many, many images that attest to this aesthetic.

Look at the friendly neighborhood Nazis!
http://www.nbp-info.ru/nbart/anselm/index.html
http://www.nbp-info.ru/nbart/anselm/images/01.jpg
http://www.nbp-info.ru/nbart/anselm/images/02.jpg
http://www.nbp-info.ru/nbart/anselm/images/34.jpg

[ComradeOm]

Why is the girl wearing a German flag (maybe its Belgian, one or the other) patch? Some Russian nationalist. :rolleyes::lol:Its German. There was some Bundeswehr reorganisation during the early 1990s and a whole lot of military surplus gear came on the market. Those jackets are fairly popular (especially amongst students) and don't indicate any particular militarism

[mykittyhasaboner]

Lol, so I guess its either an aesthetic praise of German militarism or simply a trendy piece of clothing. nazbols are hilarious.

[LeninKobaMao]

Thank you I think your ava is nice too. Stalin is the best.

[Dimentio]

Why is the girl wearing a German flag (maybe its Belgian, one or the other) patch? Some Russian nationalist. :rolleyes::lol:

She is probably listening to synth music. Such jackets are very popular if you are listening to synth. It is quite an apolitical statement really. I have seen people with such jackets here in Sweden as well.

[Dimentio]

One year ago, Swedish state radio had an interview with the nazbols. They were called a sort of "Russian equivalent to the antifa" there :laugh:

But given that we accept maoists and jucheists here, I think we do not really have any reason soon to ban or restrict limonovists.

[Chambered Word]

I always hated how that guy looked like Leon Trotsky! :mad:

The motherfucker has done that on purpose. He deserves to be killed just for that.

Also, this thread really made my head spin like mad. Sorry, but my human mind can't quite comprehend 'National Bolshevism'. I guess it's just a bunch of pissed off Stalin-kiddies, amirite?


Why is the girl wearing a German flag (maybe its Belgian, one or the other) patch? Some Russian nationalist. :rolleyes::lol:

EDIT: Guy next to Bundeswehr girl is trying to look like Lenin. I recommend him for 'special treatment'.

[Raúl Duke]

Why is the girl wearing a German flag (maybe its Belgian, one or the other) patch? Some Russian nationalist. :rolleyes::lol:

I actually have a similar jacket but I took off the flags plus the buttons went out...

[Revy]

They are not the worst group on the Russian political field. The openly fascist groups are far worse, and the neo-Stalinist/nationalist Communist Party of the Russian Federation (KPRF) is no better. Many in the KPRF have espoused racist, xenophobic, anti-Semitic and homophobic prejudices. In Russia USSR/Stalin imagery is more part of nationalism than anything else. The KPRF doesn't really care about communism/socialism, in fact their economic policies aren't even that left. They elected a millionaire named Sergei Sobko who is general director of a corporation.