Organised Crime

[cleef]

I was wondering what the general posistion of the left against (for the want of a better word) organised criminal gangs (such as the Mafia, Triads etc) is and it's way of dealing with these groups.

They are obviously a threat to the movement? Despite the fact that they share the common belief of 'fuck the government' they use the same coercive techniques as the state to gain authority

These groups obviously hold a large amount of power in certain communities and i doubt they would be willing to give up their aquired wealth / power in the regions they have influence, so what would you suggest the answer is in regards to relations with these groups?

[Pogue]

Completely and totally annihilate them. Social revolution won't exclude this particular form of oppression.

[narcomprom]

I was wondering what the general posistion of the left against (for the want of a better word) organised criminal gangs (such as the Mafia, Triads etc) is and it's way of dealing with these groups.

They are obviously a threat to the movement? Despite the fact that they share the common belief of 'fuck the government' they use the same coercive techniques as the state to gain authority

These groups obviously hold a large amount of power in certain communities and i doubt they would be willing to give up their aquired wealth / power in the regions they have influence, so what would you suggest the answer is in regards to relations with these groups?
You have a very wrong idea about the "left". It is not is about fucking the government. Western middle class teens are not an authority in defining the left.

The only difference between criminal gangs and common enterprises is legality. They do not possess lower morals. Some of baltic jews were helped to flee by local smugglers which were a criminal gang while the perfectly legal industries including Ford, Siemens and IBM were producing means to kill them.

Is an illegal drug dealer's union any worse than a tobacco merchant or a texan oil company? Naomi Klein has documented many current methods of perfectly legal companies that make mafia bosses look like angels.

You can call the revolutionary left a kind of a benevolent mafia. Wether Feminist, Radical Democrat, Marxist or Ecologist it seeks to change the society in a way it cannot be changed legally in capitalist parliamentarism for obvious reasons. We most certainly do not want to "fuck" the government. In a capitalist system the industry, and the mafia, fucks the government all day long.

[cleef]

You have a very wrong idea about the "left". It is not is about fucking the government. Western middle class teens are not an authority in defining the left.

The only difference between criminal gangs and common enterprises is legality. They do not possess lower morals. Some of baltic jews were helped to flee by local smugglers which were a criminal gang while the perfectly legal industries including Ford, Siemens and IBM were producing means to kill them.

Is an illegal drug dealer's union any worse than a tobacco merchant or a texan oil company? Naomi Klein has documented many current methods of perfectly legal companies that make mafia bosses look like angels.

You can call the revolutionary left a kind of a benevolent mafia. Wether Feminist, Radical Democrat, Marxist or Ecologist it seeks to change the society in a way it cannot be changed legally in capitalist parliamentarism for obvious reasons. We most certainly do not want to "fuck" the government. In a capitalist system the industry, and the mafia, fucks the government all day long.

I think you may have misunderstood what i meant by 'Fuck the government'

What i meant was that although the "left" and organised criminals oppose the current government it does not mean we share the same goals as these gangs which are an oppresive force like the state which support capitalism

Oh and another thing im not a "Western middle class teen" as you seem to have assumed :glare:

[Misanthrope]

Naturally many gangs will disperse once drugs are no longer illegal.

[Catbus]

Naturally many gangs will disperse once drugs are no longer illegal.

Not just that, but also when crime isn't necessary for survival. When poverty is a thing of the past, so are gangs.

[NecroCommie]

Crime is a subjective term. Some communist parties are outlawed and thus "criminal".

But I know what you really meant, and those foul exploiters should utterly be crushed. What would be the meaning of toppling an opressor if it is only to be replaced by another.

[ComradeOm]

Personally I've always considered organised crime to be something of a parallel to the state. To my mind it is something that steps in to a market that the 'legitimate' state refuses to manage. In turn OC throws up its own structures (occasionally very fluid, sometimes very rigid) for regulating this new market and ensuring that certain figures (a lumpen-bourgeoisie if you will) remain in control

[narcomprom]

I beg your pardon for being so inconsidered. I understood this term a little too broad as organised crime. Ours does not have any principles even as simple as racism.

[narcomprom]

There was a man who had the same approach - his name was Benito Mussolini.
Benito Mussolini annihilated not only the mafia. He annihilated everyone not conform. Fascists do that.

Personally I've always considered organised crime to be something of a parallel to the state. To my mind it is something that steps in to a market that the 'legitimate' state refuses to manage. In turn OC throws up its own structures (occasionally very fluid, sometimes very rigid) for regulating this new market and ensuring that certain figures (a lumpen-bourgeoisie if you will) remain in control
Amen to that. The microcredits Mohammad Yonous got his nobel prize for he simply pulled out of the underground economy. You don't get far without contacting OC in NICs.

[cleef]

There was a man who had the same approach - his name was Benito Mussolini.

Yes, i remember reading about the fascist repression of the mafia i was under the impression it was more to do with their political ties...to be honest though it just seems like a question of which was the lesser of 2 evils?

[LeninKobaMao]

They oppress people, they rob people, they kill people. I natrually hate them and I consider myself left. But considering most leftists we hate them.

[ls]

People on this thread apologising for gangsterism and saying we shouldn't work to completely destroy this form of oppressing people should fuck off.

[ls]

People who adopt conservative standards and phrases for fighting crime i.e. 'completely and totally annihilate them' should fuck off back to FOX News.

I would reckon the person with conservative communist standards is you.

[Pogue]

There was a man who had the same approach - his name was Benito Mussolini.

Yes, and he didn't like the gangs because they threatened his state.

I don't like them because they threaten communism and workers control, hence the difference.

Contrary to what you said in the rep comment, opposing organised crime does not make me a 'anarcho-liberal piece of shit'.

[Pogue]

No, I hear your rhetoric of fighting crime and other bullshit all the time. How did the fascists fight the mafia? By torture, by mass arrests, by threatening them by holding their families. Recently Berlucsoni and other conservatives have sent tens of thousands of police and soldiers into mafia strongholds. Your line is no different from fascists and other right-wing scum. Communist recognize the social forces which lead to the dominance of the mafia, and only by an elimination of those social forces can it be effectively fought. Not by useless phrases and oppression which the mafia is well used to and will never address the root of the problem.

Hence, I want to completely and totally annihilate them. I didn't say I wanted to do this through a centralised fascist state murdering them.

I think your very confused.

[the last donut of the night]

It's disturbing how there's members here painting a rosy image of gangs and organized crime. They are a product of poverty and will be dealt as such when the revolution comes. But that doesn't mean ignoring them. It means heavily legislating against them and rehabilitating any victims with the various physical or psychological wounds inflicted by any organized crime. Go watch "Gomorrah".:thumbup1:

[Comrade B]

The Cuban revolution was a revolution against US imperialism, and branches of US mob families.
The mafia has the same morals and goals of of the capitalist oppressors. Their leaders should be dealt with the same way as any other counter-revolutionary leaders.

[Pogue]

No, you're confused you anarchist piece of shit. How do you 'completely and totally annihilate them?' The mafia isn't a girl's tennis club. You can not fight it by trying to kill its members, least of all because you don't even know who they are, and because they gain their support because of certain social conditions. Not all those in the mafia are thugs or murderess either, their lowest members are from poor families. Many just deal in contra to make a little extra money - sell stolen cigarettes or whatever. I oppose organized crime like anything else. But this problem has never been solved by useless conservative phrases.

I'm not confused at all. My mind is particularly clear today.

I said the Mafia has to be completely and utterly destroyed. Which obviously has to happen. Your little sob story about the guys at the bototm just confirms how it has to be completely and utterly destroyed - because its heirachial, oppressive and something alot of people turn too in desperation. Its led by despotic criminals and thus the instiution needs to be destroyed, as I said, by social revolution.

You seriously need to calm down.

[Killfacer]

No, you're confused you anarchist piece of shit. How do you 'completely and totally annihilate them?' The mafia isn't a girl's tennis club. You can not fight it by trying to kill its members, least of all because you don't even know who they are, and because they gain their support because of certain social conditions. Not all those in the mafia are thugs or murderess either, their lowest members are from poor families. Many just deal in contra to make a little extra money - sell stolen cigarettes or whatever. I oppose organized crime like anything else. But this problem has never been solved by useless conservative phrases.

I don't think pogue was suggesting we all arm ourselves with tire irons and tommy guns, go to sicily and start a war on them.

Like most people have said, both organised crime and regular petty crime would be drastically decreased, if not completely wiped out. Once communism has been acheived, organised crime would become far less of a problem. Firstly as others have pointed out, people forced into crime by poverty would no longer be drawn to it. It's an undeniable fact that organised crime draws nearly entirely upon working class communities, so once class has been destroyed, organised crime will.

There may well be organised crime post revolution, but it won't be something recognisable as organised crime today.

[the last donut of the night]

One person isn't many, you fuckwit. And I don't think he supported it anyway. But talking about organized crime, you should look into the history of the catholic church. An organized gang of anti-working class thugs if there ever was one, and they were whores of the mafia too.

Hey buddy. The name of the thread is Organized Crime, not "Criticism of the Catholic Church". We're here discussing organized crime, therefore. So before you keep up insulting others, try to spread your points and convince others. It's less of a waste.

[Kukulofori]

Just another kind of state. The only difference is that they don't have international recognition.

Some of the things it does are genuinely helpful, (for instance smuggling people who genuinely want it across borders) but the vast majority of the time they're just using force to enforce its will on people who don't want it.