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Socialist Scum
14th July 2009, 21:36
http://www.spiegel.de/international/...4122-2,00.html (http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,634122-2,00.html)


HOMESICK FOR A DICTATORSHIP
Majority of Eastern Germans Feel Life Better under Communism

By Julia Bonstein

Glorification of the German Democratic Republic is on the rise two decades after the Berlin Wall fell. Young people and the better off are among those rebuffing criticism of East Germany as an "illegitimate state." In a new poll, more than half of former eastern Germans defend the GDR.

The life of Birger, a native of the state of Mecklenburg-West Pomerania in northeastern Germany, could read as an all-German success story. The Berlin Wall came down when he was 10. After graduating from high school, he studied economics and business administration in Hamburg, lived in India and South Africa, and eventually got a job with a company in the western German city of Duisburg. Today Birger, 30, is planning a sailing trip in the Mediterranean. He isn't using his real name for this story, because he doesn't want it to be associated with the former East Germany, which he sees as "a label with negative connotations."

And yet Birger is sitting in a Hamburg cafe, defending the former communist country. "Most East German citizens had a nice life," he says. "I certainly don't think that it's better here." By "here," he means reunified Germany, which he subjects to questionable comparisons. "In the past there was the Stasi, and today (German Interior Minister Wolfgang) Schäuble -- or the GEZ (the fee collection center of Germany's public broadcasting institutions) -- are collecting information about us." In Birger's opinion, there is no fundamental difference between dictatorship and freedom. "The people who live on the poverty line today also lack the freedom to travel."

Birger is by no means an uneducated young man. He is aware of the spying and repression that went on in the former East Germany, and, as he says, it was "not a good thing that people couldn't leave the country and many were oppressed." He is no fan of what he characterizes as contemptible nostalgia for the former East Germany. "I haven't erected a shrine to Spreewald pickles in my house," he says, referring to a snack that was part of a the East German identity. Nevertheless, he is quick to argue with those who would criticize the place his parents called home: "You can't say that the GDR was an illegitimate state, and that everything is fine today."

FROM THE MAGAZINE
Find out how you can reprint this DER SPIEGEL article in your publication.
As an apologist for the former East German dictatorship, the young Mecklenburg native shares a majority view of people from eastern Germany. Today, 20 years after the fall of the Berlin Wall, 57 percent, or an absolute majority, of eastern Germans defend the former East Germany. "The GDR had more good sides than bad sides. There were some problems, but life was good there," say 49 percent of those polled. Eight percent of eastern Germans flatly oppose all criticism of their former home and agree with the statement: "The GDR had, for the most part, good sides. Life there was happier and better than in reunified Germany today."

These poll results, released last Friday in Berlin, reveal that glorification of the former East Germany has reached the center of society. Today, it is no longer merely the eternally nostalgic who mourn the loss of the GDR. "A new form of Ostalgie (nostalgia for the former GDR) has taken shape," says historian Stefan Wolle. "The yearning for the ideal world of the dictatorship goes well beyond former government officials." Even young people who had almost no experiences with the GDR are idealizing it today. "The value of their own history is at stake," says Wolle.

People are whitewashing the dictatorship, as if reproaching the state meant calling their own past into question. "Many eastern Germans perceive all criticism of the system as a personal attack," says political scientist Klaus Schroeder, 59, director of an institute at Berlin's Free University that studies the former communist state. He warns against efforts to downplay the SED dictatorship by young people whose knowledge about the GDR is derived mainly from family conversations, and not as much from what they have learned in school. "Not even half of young people in eastern Germany describe the GDR as a dictatorship, and a majority believe the Stasi was a normal intelligence service," Schroeder concluded in a 2008 study of school students. "These young people cannot, and in fact have no desire to, recognize the dark sides of the GDR."

"Driven Out of Paradise"

Schroeder has made enemies with statements like these. He received more than 4,000 letters, some of them furious, in reaction to reporting on his study. The 30-year-old Birger also sent an e-mail to Schroeder. The political scientist has now compiled a selection of typical letters to document the climate of opinion in which the GDR and unified Germany are discussed in eastern Germany. Some of the material gives a shocking insight into the thoughts of disappointed and angry citizens. "From today's perspective, I believe that we were driven out of paradise when the Wall came down," one person writes, and a 38-year-old man "thanks God" that he was able to experience living in the GDR, noting that it wasn't until after German reunification that he witnessed people who feared for their existence, beggars and homeless people.

Today's Germany is described as a "slave state" and a "dictatorship of capital," and some letter writers reject Germany for being, in their opinion, too capitalist or dictatorial, and certainly not democratic. Schroeder finds such statements alarming. "I am afraid that a majority of eastern Germans do not identify with the current sociopolitical system."

Many of the letter writers are either people who did not benefit from German reunification or those who prefer to live in the past. But they also include people like Thorsten Schön.

After 1989 Schön, a master craftsman from Stralsund, a city on the Baltic Sea, initially racked up one success after the next. Although he no longer owns the Porsche he bought after reunification, the lion skin rug he bought on a vacation trip to South Africa -- one of many overseas trips he has made in the past 20 years -- is still lying on his living room floor. "There's no doubt it: I've been fortunate," says the 51-year-old today. A major contract he scored during the period following reunification made it easier for Schön to start his own business. Today he has a clear view of the Strelasund sound from the window of his terraced house.

Wall decorations from Bali decorate his living room, and a miniature version of the Statue of Liberty stands next to the DVD player. All the same, Schön sits on his sofa and rhapsodizes about the good old days in East Germany. "In the past, a campground was a place where people enjoyed their freedom together," he says. What he misses most today is "that feeling of companionship and solidarity." The economy of scarcity, complete with barter transactions, was "more like a hobby." Does he have a Stasi file? "I'm not interested in that," says Schön. "Besides, it would be too disappointing."

His verdict on the GDR is clear: "As far as I'm concerned, what we had in those days was less of a dictatorship than what we have today." He wants to see equal wages and equal pensions for residents of the former East Germany. And when Schön starts to complain about unified Germany, his voice contains an element of self-satisfaction. People lie and cheat everywhere today, he says, and today's injustices are simply perpetrated in a more cunning way than in the GDR, where starvation wages and slashed car tires were unheard of. Schön cannot offer any accounts of his own bad experiences in present-day Germany. "I'm better off today than I was before," he says, "but I am not more satisfied."

Schön's reasoning is less about cool logic than it is about settling scores. What makes him particularly dissatisfied is "the false picture of the East that the West is painting today." The GDR, he says, was "not an unjust state," but "my home, where my achievements were recognized." Schön doggedly repeats the story of how it took him years of hard work before starting his own business in 1989 -- before reunification, he is quick to add. "Those who worked hard were also able to do well for themselves in the GDR." This, he says, is one of the truths that are persistently denied on talk shows, when western Germans act "as if eastern Germans were all a little stupid and should still be falling to their knees today in gratitude for reunification." What exactly is there to celebrate, Schön asks himself?

"Rose-tinted memories are stronger than the statistics about people trying to escape and applications for exit visas, and even stronger than the files about killings at the Wall and unjust political sentences," says historian Wolle.

These are memories of people whose families were not persecuted and victimized in East Germany, of people like 30-year-old Birger, who says today: "If reunification hadn't happened, I would also have had a good life."

Life as a GDR Citizen

After completing his university degree, he says, he would undoubtedly have accepted a "management position in some business enterprise," perhaps not unlike his father, who was the chairman of a farmers' collective. "The GDR played no role in the life of a GDR citizen," Birger concludes. This view is shared by his friends, all of them college-educated children of the former East Germany who were born in 1978. "Reunification or not," the group of friends recently concluded, it really makes no difference to them. Without reunification, their travel destinations simply would have been Moscow and Prague, instead of London and Brussels. And the friend who is a government official in Mecklenburg today would probably have been a loyal party official in the GDR.

The young man expresses his views levelheadedly and with few words, although he looks slightly defiant at times, like when he says: "I know, what I'm telling you isn't all that interesting. The stories of victims are easier to tell."

Birger doesn't usually mention his origins. In Duisburg, where he works, hardly anyone knows that he is originally from East Germany. But on this afternoon, Birger is adamant about contradicting the "victors' writing of history." "In the public's perception, there are only victims and perpetrators. But the masses fall by the wayside."

This is someone who feels personally affected when Stasi terror and repression are mentioned. He is an academic who knows "that one cannot sanction the killings at the Berlin Wall." However, when it comes to the border guards' orders to shoot would-be escapees, he says: "If there is a big sign there, you shouldn't go there. It was completely negligent."

This brings up an old question once again: Did a real life exist in the midst of a sham? Downplaying the dictatorship is seen as the price people pay to preserve their self-respect. "People are defending their own lives," writes political scientist Schroeder, describing the tragedy of a divided country.

Translated from the German by Christopher Sultan.

LOLseph Stalin
14th July 2009, 23:51
Yes, I have seen this very same article. It's quite interesting actually. If you look at people in the DDR everybody had a decent job that could put food on their table, etc. Once Capitalism got introduced many of these people suddenly found themselves unemployed or in lower down jobs, thus struggling to get the necessities they need. That would be quite a difficult thing to adjust to I think.

Manzil
15th July 2009, 01:18
It should be remembered that nowhere does the research show popular support for the police state apparatus of East German Stalinism. It is the dismantling of nationalised property, associated with the sudden vulnerability of the East German people to the dictates of the world market, that is being rejected, not the limited but welcome increases in civil and political liberties which the reunification process harboured. The Left Party in Germany has admirably steered a course away from a revisionist policy of tacit acceptance of anti-proletarian, bureaucratic dictatorship, and attempted to preserve and emphasise the solidarity and equality which served as the better part of the Communist experience in central and eastern Europe.

Moreover, anyone who is inclined to tolerate nonsense like the quoted academic's support for the Berlin Wall, is no friend of the workers' movement. Internationalism and open borders are the way towards a resurgent egalitarianism, not nolstalgia for the bureaucratic tyrannies which shot workers in the name of socialism.

Killfacer
15th July 2009, 02:19
shall we build a wall for them to try and escape over, just to relive the glory days?

khad
15th July 2009, 02:20
shall we build a wall for them to try and escape over, just to relive the glory days?
Shall we use you for target practice?

It had to be said. :lol:

Pogue
15th July 2009, 02:21
There was never socialism in East Germany.

Jimmie Higgins
15th July 2009, 02:36
If this is the general sentiment in that region, does anyone know what the state of radical let parties is there? Are people joining radical groups (including those of the non-state-capitalist variety) or are they just voting for electoral CP-like parties or just expressing a general sense of dissatisfaction?

In other words, are people radicalizing because of the economic crisis and legacy of neoliberalism or are they just disgruntled about the situation?

Pogue
15th July 2009, 02:38
If this is the general sentiment in that region, does anyone know what the state of radical let parties is there? Are people joining radical groups (including those of the non-state-capitalist variety) or are they just voting for electoral CP-like parties or just expressing a general sense of dissatisfaction?

Once more, people apparently preferring the DDR to the current Germany doesn't show any radical sentiment. it just shows how some people find one form of capitalism better than another. both forms are shit, the wall and DDR was brutal.

Jimmie Higgins
15th July 2009, 02:44
Once more, people apparently preferring the DDR to the current Germany doesn't show any radical sentiment. it just shows how some people find one form of capitalism better than another. both forms are shit, the wall and DDR was brutal.
So there is not a general radicalization then - just unhappiness with the current state of things.

That's what I was asking, I was not defending Eastern Germany as socialism. Ever consider some kind of treatment for that attention deficit disorder of yours?

Pogue
15th July 2009, 02:45
So there is not a general radicalization then - just unhappiness with the current state of things.

That's what I was asking, I was not defending Eastern Germany as socialism. Ever consider some kind of treatment for that attention deficit disorder of yours?

I answered your question, you fucking rude ****, so don't be such a lairy little prick when I respond to you. If I want to be diagnosed, I'll ring up a fucking doctor, you smarmy prick.

Socialist Scum
15th July 2009, 10:09
I answered your question, you fucking rude ****, so don't be such a lairy little prick when I respond to you. If I want to be diagnosed, I'll ring up a fucking doctor, you smarmy prick.

^

Reason #224 why the left gets nowhere.

AnthArmo
15th July 2009, 10:26
shall we build a wall for them to try and escape over, just to relive the glory days?

:laugh:

NecroCommie
15th July 2009, 12:54
I bet these anarchists would find even the final communism "brutal" and "state capitalist".

Killfacer
15th July 2009, 13:12
I bet these anarchists would find even the final communism "brutal" and "state capitalist".

Because thousands of west germans definatly tried to escape to east germany didn't they. No wait...

fabilius
15th July 2009, 13:12
Once more, people apparently preferring the DDR to the current Germany doesn't show any radical sentiment. it just shows how some people find one form of capitalism better than another. both forms are shit, the wall and DDR was brutal.

Let´s not overestimate this sentiment, but neither underestimate it.

More than half of east germans think that capitalism in the west wasn´t all that it was made out to be. They are open to new ideas, and the word communism isn´t anathema to them.

So... maybe this is a way for progress. A passage if you will. It´s easier to present yourself as a conservative to people with a nostalgic idealized past rather than as a revolutionary with an utopian vision of the future. But who says you can´t be both.

They are maybe not ripe for a revolution, but even if this just means a population willing to create a collaborative economy rather than competetive it´s something. If it ends up as a state run economy with more freedom of movement and speech than the old DDR it´s still progress.

NecroCommie
15th July 2009, 13:17
Because thousands of west germans definatly tried to escape to east germany didn't they. No wait...
1) This discussion has been discussed many times over already, and I know that you know many logical reasons for this that have nothing to do with the alleged brutality of the DDR. The accusation of state capitalism I do not deny because ...

2) I am just generally frustrated at the puritanism of some anarchists. The comment was not specific to this topic. This topic simply reminded me of this.

L.J.Solidarity
15th July 2009, 14:07
There are no significant radical organisations in East Germany, or at least none much more significant than in the west.
The Left Party is rather strong (up to 30% of voters in some areas, but generally second party behind the conservatives on state level) in the East being the home of the traditional PDS, but unfortunately the leadership is mainly interested in becoming part of bourgeois/neoliberal state governments with the SPD and has a good chance to do so in the elections this year, which means that they'll be the ones to execute the massive cutbacks "necessary" because of the crisis - what a great perspective for a party that still calls itself "socialist" even in the east. There's no visible resistance against the leader's right-wing course from rank-and-file members, and I'm inclined to believe the majority of voters are old people who have been voting for the same party since the days of stalinism just because they always did so.

There also isn't much of a left-wing radical youth scene in most places as large areas of the east, especially smaller towns are infested with violent Nazi scum and being antifascist can be very dangerous. In Saxony the leftist scene has been taken over by anti-germans long ago, and those are mostly of the sort I refuse to call leftists.

Small far-left parties tend to perform better in elections in the east than in the west, but that's more like the different between 0.1 and 0.4% (maoist MLPD in state elections) or the 1.5% SAV (CWI Germany) got in local elections in the city of Rostock.

Apparently, most people who think the GDR had it's good sides either do so for the wrong reasons or fail to pull the conclusions.

Pogue
15th July 2009, 14:40
^

Reason #224 why the left gets nowhere.

like you would even know

Pogue
15th July 2009, 14:44
1) This discussion has been discussed many times over already, and I know that you know many logical reasons for this that have nothing to do with the alleged brutality of the DDR. The accusation of state capitalism I do not deny because ...

2) I am just generally frustrated at the puritanism of some anarchists. The comment was not specific to this topic. This topic simply reminded me of this.

Puritans? What, because we don't lavish praise upon dictatorships like you Stalinist nutters?

Why should I accept anything less than the best possible for my class? I analyse things according to how well they suit the working class and the DDR fucking didn't, it shot them.

KurtFF8
15th July 2009, 15:16
I'll just repost what I posted at S-E:

I discussed Ostalgie with a professor who teaches about the Socialist East quite a bit and he said something along the lines of: There's no questioning that they were better off back then, that's just a fact. But that's a wholly different thing than wanting to go back to it.

I think it's an important point: I don't think that East Germans necessarily want the GDR back, with the Stasi and all that but they likely do want some form of socialism to return.

Here's a good article that came out recently by Perry Anderson called A New Germany? (http://www.newleftreview.org/?view=2778) Where he describes the current situation in Germany (east and west)

NecroCommie
15th July 2009, 15:40
Puritans? What, because we don't lavish praise upon dictatorships like you Stalinist nutters?

Why should I accept anything less than the best possible for my class? I analyse things according to how well they suit the working class and the DDR fucking didn't, it shot them.
First of all, I am in no way a stalinist, and second of all I don't support dictatorship. It just so happens that within anarchist and certain trotskyite circles there are people for whom no change is good enough unless it is a total over-night turn to pure communism.

To me this news clearly indicates the difference that is between degenerated workers states and parliamentary capitalism. So these folks are displeased with parliamentary capitalism, that is good! That is a good beginning for local parties to build upon. Then come these puritanians who revel in the fact that: "this is not pure communism!!!!" ... ... ... No shit Sherlock?! It is however better than what the situation is in the US. For some people that is a signal of progress, but then for some people progress is not good enough.

Also the fact that some people seem to think they know so much better what the germans think than the germans themselves disgusts me.

Jimmie Higgins
15th July 2009, 16:41
I answered your question, you fucking rude ****, so don't be such a lairy little prick when I respond to you. If I want to be diagnosed, I'll ring up a fucking doctor, you smarmy prick.

But no, you didn't answer my question. My question was if there was general radicalization, and not just longing for a return to the old Stalinist regime.

You rudely said that East Germany was shit. No argument on that point, I do not support state-capitalism. But are people joining other groups and parties too? If you don't know, that's fine - just don't respond.

You're right. I should have been more upfront with my response - but sarcasm is my usual reaction when someone is flippant and dismissive to me and so that's how I reacted. Also, the next time you want to insult me, try it with a little less sexism... it might help to not play into that stereotype of UK anarchists.

Pogue
15th July 2009, 16:45
But no, you didn't answer my question. My question was if there was general radicalization, and not just longing for a return to the old Stalinist regime.

You rudely said that East Germany was shit. No argument on that point, I do not support state-capitalism. But are people joining other groups and parties too? If you don't know, that's fine - just don't respond.

You're right. I should have been more upfront with my response - but sarcasm is my usual reaction when someone is flippant and dismissive to me and so that's how I reacted. Also, the next time you want to insult me, try it with a little less sexism... it might help to not play into that stereotype of UK anarchists.

The stereotype of UK anarchists being what garb your party feeds you to avoid actually having to debate our ideas.

Jimmie Higgins
15th July 2009, 17:06
The stereotype of UK anarchists being what garb your party feeds you to avoid actually having to debate our ideas.

Ha, another funny straw-man. No, the stereotype I was talking about came from the video at the anarchist conference in the UK criticizing the movement for macho and sexist attitudes.
http://www.revleft.com/vb/sexist-oppression-within-t111455/index.html

I don't belong to a party, but my organization can't be bothered to take much time talking about insignificant like the attitudes of individual sectarians all the way over in the UK.

If you have nothing to say, step away from the typewriter. If your ideas are that "East Germany was shit", then there isn't much to debate over other than your hostile manner of engaging in discussion because I agree with you on state-capitalism.

KurtFF8
15th July 2009, 20:13
By the way, the title of this thread is thus misleading. The poll/article mentions East Germans who thought they were better off under the GDR, not necessarily that they want the GDR back. That's not to say they don't want socialism of course ;)

Pogue
15th July 2009, 21:29
Ha, another funny straw-man. No, the stereotype I was talking about came from the video at the anarchist conference in the UK criticizing the movement for macho and sexist attitudes.
http://www.revleft.com/vb/sexist-oppression-within-t111455/index.html

I don't belong to a party, but my organization can't be bothered to take much time talking about insignificant like the attitudes of individual sectarians all the way over in the UK.

If you have nothing to say, step away from the typewriter. If your ideas are that "East Germany was shit", then there isn't much to debate over other than your hostile manner of engaging in discussion because I agree with you on state-capitalism.

If you don't like the way I talk, don't talk to me, it doesn't bother me.

I've already responded to the claims of those muppets at the conference as have many of my female comrades who are actually involved in the movement. I feel no need to defend it to a clueless fuck like you. Now fuck off.

narcomprom
15th July 2009, 21:29
There was never socialism in East Germany.
@NecroCommie
State Monopoly Capitalism, Staatsmonopolkapitalismus or "StaMoKap" was exactly what the GDR called it's economic system along with "Realsozialismus". Sozialimus, without any adjectives or additives, was something they supposedly were building according to the SED.
There is some difference between their usage and that of USSR which claimed to be "socialist" country building "communism".
@KurtFFB
A German engineer I talked to said an interesting thing. In the GDR there were generally more intellectuals because they didn't have any distractions, any cars and electric toys to discuss. He found Western Germans with all their rock'n roll and tattoos and fancy haircuts and whatnot to be incredibly shallow and boring. His ideal system, thus, would have combined free enterprise with sigificantly stronger state intervention in education and culture AND, of course, more free time.

Jimmie Higgins
15th July 2009, 22:29
I've already responded to the claims of those muppets at the conference as have many of my female comrades who are actually involved in the movement. I feel no need to defend it to a clueless fuck like you. Now fuck off.

Telling me to fuck off is probably the best way to guarantee that I won't back down. Now, just admit that you didn't have an answer to my original question and are an ineffective sectarian that tries to convince people that he's not sexist by calling them ****s and I'll admit that I'm a smarmy sarcastic asshole and be on my way.:laugh:

Sorry friend, this whole conversation was off on a bad downward trajectory. No hard feelings; next time let's keep it strictly political.

Pogue
15th July 2009, 22:32
Telling me to fuck off is probably the best way to guarantee that I won't back down. Now, just admit that you didn't have an answer to my original question and are an ineffective sectarian that tries to convince people that he's not sexist by calling them ****s and I'll be on my way.:laugh:

Sorry friend, this whole conversation was off on a bad downward trajectory. No hard feelings; next time let's keep it strictly political.

I'm not your friend and I find that term really creepy but whatever, I sussed you as a pervert type long ago.

Oh your not going to back down? Wouldn't want to meet you in the streets then I bet your a top boy.

Your original question? I don't even know what that was. I'm not sectarian either, I have perfectly good relations with people in AFed, SolFed, and even the ICC, I just think people outside of the anarchist and left communist movement are counter-revolutionaries and thoroughly anti-working class so they can get fucked.

Jimmie Higgins
15th July 2009, 23:02
I'm not your friend and I find that term really creepy but whatever, I sussed you as a pervert type long ago.What are you underage? If not then are you suggesting that there is something perverted about male homosexuality?


Oh your not going to back down? Wouldn't want to meet you in the streets then I bet your a top boy. Well I meant back down from the argument. But whatever man, Oakland California is waiting, killah.


Your original question? I don't even know what that was.
It was if people were radicalizing and joining non-Stalinist groups or just nostalgic for a return of the old regime.


I just think people outside of the anarchist and left communist movement are counter-revolutionaries and thoroughly anti-working class so they can get fucked.Yes, so you snapped at me for asking that question, saying that "East Germany was shit" like I was supporting it or something. You are so convinced that such and such groups or political traditions are the enemy that you can't even read a simple question without projecting your sectarianism onto it. In your mind, obviously I must think that State-Capitalist Germany was lovely and I can't wait to see it return since I am not an anarchist - that seems like sectarianism to me.

Pogue
15th July 2009, 23:06
What are you underage? If not then are you suggesting that there is something perverted about male homosexuality?

I don't think you understand the meaning of the word pervert in contemporary usage.


Well I meant back down from the argument. But whatever man, Oakland California is waiting, killah.

see your Oakland and raise you my south london.


It was if people were radicalizing and joining non-Stalinist groups or just nostalgic for a return of the old regime.

I answered that and you decided to be a little baby about it, stop being reflective and criticising me for your own inadqueacies.

I have many personality defects but attention defecit disorder is not one of them, I went to Marxism, and managed to listen to Trot shit for hours.


Yes, so you snapped at me for asking that question, saying that "East Germany was shit" like I was supporting it or something. You are so convinced that such and such groups or political traditions are the enemy that you can't even read a simple question without projecting your sectarianism onto it. In your mind, obviously I must think that State-Capitalist Germany was lovely and I can't wait to see it return since I am not an anarchist - that seems like sectarianism to me.

If your not an anarchist then I can't be sectarian to you. I don't consider you part of the same political tradition as me so I'm merely dsiagreeing with you, not being sectarian.

DDR was shite btw

Stranger Than Paradise
15th July 2009, 23:13
Fuck sake this is an absolutely ridiculous argument. Pogue stated facts, it is not because he is an Anarchist that he stated these facts, any true revolutionary can see that East Germany was a state-capitalist which was an enemy to the working people of East Germany. How did that cause such a fucking ruckus?

Jimmie Higgins
15th July 2009, 23:14
DDR was shite btwFine, this we can agree on.











...Oakland's Raider Nation is about as close to a real football club that American football's got in devotion and in violence.:lol:

Pogue
15th July 2009, 23:15
Fine, this we can agree on.











...Oakland's Raider Nation is about as close to a real football club that American football's got in devotion and in violence.:lol:


if we had a drink together we'd get on

Stranger Than Paradise
15th July 2009, 23:16
Fine, this we can agree on.











...Oakland's Raider Nation is about as close to a real football club that American football's got in devotion and in violence.:lol:


Nah Eagles fans are better.

Jimmie Higgins
15th July 2009, 23:19
Fuck sake this is an absolutely ridiculous argument. Pogue stated facts, it is not because he is an Anarchist that he stated these facts, any true revolutionary can see that East Germany was a state-capitalist which was an enemy to the working people of East Germany. How did that cause such a fucking ruckus?

No one is disputing this - I just asked what I thought was a straight-forward question and got hostility back and I don't like to be pushed around, so like I said it was a bad trajectory in the discussion - I egged him on and he egged me on and that's about it.

If someone does know if there is radicalization going on in Germany beyond the old Stalinist party, I'd still like to know if people are looking backwards or looking forwards to a real alternative to capitalism and state-capitalism.

Pogue
15th July 2009, 23:20
No one is disputing this - I just asked what I thought was a straight-forward question and got hostility back and I don't like to be pushed around, so like I said it was a bad trajectory in the discussion - I egged him on and he egged me on and that's about it.

If someone does know if there is radicalization going on in Germany beyond the old Stalinist party, I'd still like to know if people are looking backwards or looking forwards to a real alternative to capitalism and state-capitalism.

if you don't like being pushed around become an anarchist

but let me make it clear you either go to prison or die, there is no third option

Stranger Than Paradise
15th July 2009, 23:24
No one is disputing this - I just asked what I thought was a straight-forward question and got hostility back and I don't like to be pushed around, so like I said it was a bad trajectory in the discussion - I egged him on and he egged me on and that's about it.

If someone does know if there is radicalization going on in Germany beyond the old Stalinist party, I'd still like to know if people are looking backwards or looking forwards to a real alternative to capitalism and state-capitalism.

I wasn't directing it at you entirely, infact my rant was directed at those stereotyping Anarchists and ridiculing Pogue for making a valid point. I don't think you were included in those categories.