Class vs gender vs race consciousness

[cappiej]

You guys often talk of how class transcends race, which maybe it does, and how racism prevents class consciousness, here's my questions.

Why do you never say gender consciousness (i.e. feminism) prevents class consciousness, why can you be gender and class conscious but not race and class conscious?

Class is temporary, you could win the lottery and your kids would go to Eton or Harrow and would know nothing, or little, of being poor and their kids would be completely middle class and probably exist off a trust fund, never working in their whole lives.

Well maybe if people here hit the lottery they wouldn't send their kids to Eton but I think most lottery winners would buy their kids a better education than they would have received without the benefit of the lottery winnings.

Race, on the other hand, is genetic. Its permanent, nothing in your life will change whether you're Black or White, you can, on the other hand, climb the social ladder.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

Feminism isn't the same as racism, tho. The gender equivalent of racism is sexism, not feminism. Saying feminism prevents class consciousness would be like saying anti-racism prevents class consciousness.

[OneNamedNameLess]

Oh how I hate this whole notion of climning the social ladder. Cappies make it sound so easy. External factors prevent many people from climbing the social ladder as you describe it. For those who do, very little break into the top of the pyramid.

I am race conscious. I am white as I was born way above the northern hemisphere :D Racism doesn't prevent class consciousness. An individual can be class conscious and still be hostile towards other races out of ignorance. For us class is related to the means of production which the majority are denied access to and must sell their labour power. Race should be irrelevant as the working class share much in common due to their economic position at the bottom of this so called social ladder. Therefore, the proletariat are exploited by the ruling class from a Marxist perspective and are involved in the same struggle which undermines the importance of race. Race is just an arbitrary social construction anyway.

There is much more I could include in this response but I am certain some of the sharper, more knowledgeable users will provide a superior answer to this one.

[Blake's Baby]

"Class" doesn't mean "money", not exactly.

And the point about the correlate of racism in terms of debates about gender being sexism is well made.

Many people do talk about sexism being as big a problem as racism. Fewer talk about feminism being a problem because it's generally assumed that sexism can only be directed against women, as it's also generally assumed that racism can only be by white people.

Of course, both of those are false. Personally I think that feminsm and anti-racism, as they are generally practiced, can be harmful to class conciousness. But the point is about the distribution of power in society. If you are powerful in this society you are more likely to be a white man than a black woman (say).

That of course doesn't mean that all white men have power; obviously most white men have no power in our society, which is why I would say that class trumps race or gender every time. I will always have less power in this society than Oprah Winfrey; that has nothing to do with race or gender, it has to do with money and class.

Money, class and power, though not being exactly the same, are closely linked. There are men woth power and women with power, men without and women without; so power does not come from the organisation of gender in our society. There are powerful black poeople and powerful white people, powerless black and powerless white people; so power does not come from the the social organisation of race in our society.

There are, however, no powerful poor people of any kind in our society.

That's why we're socialists. Because in the end the dtermining factor in the distribution of power in our society is economic; those who can afford to own the means of production dominate those who can't, and in the end black and white, male and female doesn't come into it.

[#FF0000]

Race, on the other hand, is genetic. Its permanent, nothing in your life will change whether you're Black or White, you can, on the other hand, climb the social ladder.

Sort of. Race is based on arbitrary physical traits. We say that skin color defines race, but for no particular reason. We could just as easily say hitchhiker's thumb or a detached earlobe makes someone a different race.

The more you know
~~~~~~~~~~~*

BUT ANYWAY

Class differs from race in that class is immediately based the power someone has. Race, on the other hand, is based on an arbitrary selection of physical attributes, and is totally neutral to the relative power one has over someone. Someone of the bourgeois class is always going to be more powerful than a proletarian, but the power relation between a white person and a black person sort of depends on that society.

[Bud Struggle]

Sort of. Race is based on arbitrary physical traits. We say that skin color defines race, but for no particular reason. We could just as easily say hitchhiker's thumb or a detached earlobe makes someone a different race.

That is particularly insightful. :thumbup1:

The interesting thing though is that when the Black race was introduced to the white--that someone got the idea that if we whites "say so" that Blacks aren't really human beings at all--and don't have to be treated as human beings.

The history of human suffering is always based on the idea of exclusion.

[cappiej]

Sort of. Race is based on arbitrary physical traits. We say that skin color defines race, but for no particular reason. We could just as easily say hitchhiker's thumb or a detached earlobe makes someone a different race.

The more you know
~~~~~~~~~~~*

BUT ANYWAY

Class differs from race in that class is immediately based the power someone has. Race, on the other hand, is based on an arbitrary selection of physical attributes, and is totally neutral to the relative power one has over someone. Someone of the bourgeois class is always going to be more powerful than a proletarian, but the power relation between a white person and a black person sort of depends on that society.

I have to disagree, skin colour, with a few very rare exceptions (throwbacks), is passed on directly.

If your mom is White & your dad is White then you will be White, if your mom has an attached earlobe and your dad has an unattached earlobe and you have an attached one it would be ridiculous to argue your father is of a different race because of it.

[#FF0000]

I have to disagree, skin colour, with a few very rare exceptions (throwbacks), is passed on directly.

If your mom is White & your dad is White then you will be White, if your mom has an attached earlobe and your dad has an unattached earlobe and you have an attached one it would be ridiculous to argue your father is of a different race because of it.

And if your mom is white and your dad is black, then what are you? Or, how about if your mom was puerto rican and your dad was black?

In any case, there is still a difference between class and race, because one class is inherently dominant over the other (this is what class is based on).

[cappiej]

And if your mom is white and your dad is black, then what are you? Or, how about if your mom was puerto rican and your dad was black?

In any case, there is still a difference between class and race, because one class is inherently dominant over the other (this is what class is based on).

Well you can look at it one of two ways, a half Black half White person is either a member of no race or both races.

Racial admixture is ubiquitous and its been going on for centuries, so any definition of a race will be shaky to say the least. However, generally speaking, we can put the vast majority into a racial group.

There's a reason why when you look at a White man and a Black man they look different and when you look at an Anglo-Saxon and a Slav they look different (although the difference is less pronounced that between the White & Black man) and when you put people from different regions together they look different.

Research in six market towns across England & Wales showed the English and Welsh are essentially different races of mankind. Its a fact and I don't see why anyone would want to deny it.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Why do you never say gender consciousness (i.e. feminism) prevents class consciousness, why can you be gender and class conscious but not race and class conscious?
I'm not sure what you mean here. I see gender and race inequality as tied-in with class inequality. In order for the ruling class to maintain power, it is better if the working class is divided, the ruling class can also punish one group as an object lesson for the rest of society or to get extra exploitation out of the singled-out group. For full class-consciousness to develop, we need to unite as a class and get rid of these differences.

Think how if working people fought for paid maternity leave for women, that benefits all families, not just women. Getting rid of racial profiling means that all people will be safer from random police stops. When the working class isn't busy fighting over crumbs, it is easier to see the whole cake!


Class is temporary, you could win the lottery and your kids would go to Eton or Harrow and would know nothing, or little, of being poor and their kids would be completely middle class and probably exist off a trust fund, never working in their whole lives.

Well maybe if people here hit the lottery they wouldn't send their kids to Eton but I think most lottery winners would buy their kids a better education than they would have received without the benefit of the lottery winnings.

Race, on the other hand, is genetic. Its permanent, nothing in your life will change whether you're Black or White, you can, on the other hand, climb the social ladder.Winning the lottery doesn't change the entire system - all workers can not win the lottery, so class inequality and all the problems associated with it remain. Great, win some big bucks and buy a big house and send your kid to a good school - who wouldn't? So you move yourself to the professional class and your kid becomes a doctor - he still suffers from the problems of this system even if he is better off within it. He works at a hospital that is understaffed and overcrowded because healthcare isn't a priority, he looses his stocks because of an economic crisis, he is drafted into a war as a medic and gets killed.

Class is not an identity it is how society is structured. Socialists don't look to the working class to run society because working class people are inherently awesome or something, its because if workers run things themselves democratically, then no groups need to be exploited in order to make society run.

Race is an identity and changes in importance depending on what society thinks about race. In the US, Irish people were once "not white" according to mainstream society - Irish were discriminated against and blamed for all sorts of social problems like prostitution, crime, and alcoholism. Now, no one thinks twice about an Irish person's "race".

If you are a worker, you can change your position and not be a worker, but as long as you are a worker, no matter what someone thinks about your position in society, it's still the same position.

[Jack]

Your ethnicity is not really dependant on your skin color. For example: Serbians and the Irish may have the same skin color, but are different ethnicities. Same goes for Turks and Kurds.

[#FF0000]

Research in six market towns across England & Wales showed the English and Welsh are essentially different races of mankind. Its a fact and I don't see why anyone would want to deny it.

Now you're talking about ethnicity. Race and ethnicity are different.

[cappiej]

Now you're talking about ethnicity. Race and ethnicity are different.

Well yes the Welsh and English are both sub groups of the White/European race, however its been established English people are, genetically, almost indistinguishable from Frisians and English people share less in common with the Welsh than they do with Frisians or even Norwegians.

I suppose it makes sense when you think about it, with the invasion in the 5th century etc

Apparently Offa's Dyke acted as a 'genetic barrier', the original Britons behind it went on to become the Welsh race and those in front of it (ie in modern day England) were, by enlarge, massacred.

[yuon]

cappiej, you have some fucked up ideas.

Because race is such an arbitrary thing (a person with a "black" parent and a "white" parent, you say is either both or no race?), it makes no sense to use it for anything at all.
To claim that "white/European" is a race, is just stupid! People in the south of Europe tend to have more "olive" skin, and darker hair.

Why skin colour? Why not eye colour? That's a definable trait, your eyes are either one colour or another (no worrying about tints). If one parent has blue eyes, and the other brown, the children will probably have brown eyes (not half-blue, half brown), getting rid of the whole "half-race" crap.

Bah, racism, and even beliving that race exists as an objective physical fact is so stupid... And irrational.

[Lynx]

Blue eye color is a recessive gene. Two brown-eyed parents can have a blue-eyed child.

[Havet]

Bah, racism, and even beliving that race exists as an objective physical fact is so stupid... And irrational.

well races DO exist, they're just not as immutable as racists claim and it doesn't matter anyway.

Once i asked a couple of anti-immigrants racists nutjobs what would it matter IF the "scientific studies" they were quoting did prove that "black" people had less IQ than "white" people. They said that it matters because currently "black" people and "white" people are in the same schools when "clearly" both have different "learning abilities" and should therefore be separated (aka segregated)...

I personally think that anyone that is human can have the mental potential to become as intelligent or more than an Einstein.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Genetic variability (including the variability of skin colour) is continuous, not discrete. In reality, there are no "white people" and "black people" - there are people covering the entire range of skin colours and facial features from very "white" to very "black".

Race is an arbitrary human invention because our notion of race is based on picking some random point in that range of skin colours and saying "this is where white ends and black begins." The same happens with ethnicities. The English may be different from the Welsh, but how different is different enough to consider them separate ethnic groups? It's an arbitrary judgment.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I have to disagree, skin colour, with a few very rare exceptions (throwbacks), is passed on directly.

If your mom is White & your dad is White then you will be White, if your mom has an attached earlobe and your dad has an unattached earlobe and you have an attached one it would be ridiculous to argue your father is of a different race because of it.

But skin color can be deceiving. There are some black people and some latinos with lighter skin who at first glance are often thought to be white.

In the specific case of Mexicans, the vast majority of us have both European and Indigenous blood lines which is the Mestizo race.

Also, yuon, you have great insight. I hope you don't take my words above about race in Mexico in the wrong way as I was speaking specifically with in Mexico.

[cappiej]

cappiej, you have some fucked up ideas.

Because race is such an arbitrary thing (a person with a "black" parent and a "white" parent, you say is either both or no race?), it makes no sense to use it for anything at all.
To claim that "white/European" is a race, is just stupid! People in the south of Europe tend to have more "olive" skin, and darker hair.

Why skin colour? Why not eye colour? That's a definable trait, your eyes are either one colour or another (no worrying about tints). If one parent has blue eyes, and the other brown, the children will probably have brown eyes (not half-blue, half brown), getting rid of the whole "half-race" crap.

Bah, racism, and even beliving that race exists as an objective physical fact is so stupid... And irrational.

Indeed, it would be a genocide if blue eyes were to die out, a bloodless genocide.

[cappiej]

But skin color can be deceiving. There are some black people and some latinos with lighter skin who at first glance are often thought to be white.

In the specific case of Mexicans, the vast majority of us have both European and Indigenous blood lines which is the Mestizo race.

Also, yuon, you have great insight. I hope you don't take my words above about race in Mexico in the wrong way as I was speaking specifically with in Mexico.

Indeed, its not just about skin colour, race is defined by much more.

Even if it doesn't exist why do you guys care if someone only wants to marry someone like them on moral grounds? Muslims tend to marry Muslims, Jews tend to marry other Jews, why can't English people choose to marry other English people for the same reasons without being called racist or nativist?

[Jack]

Indeed, its not just about skin colour, race is defined by much more.

Even if it doesn't exist why do you guys care if someone only wants to marry someone like them on moral grounds? Muslims tend to marry Muslims, Jews tend to marry other Jews, why can't English people choose to marry other English people for the same reasons without being called racist or nativist?

That has mroe to do with being raised around people of the same religion. Most English marry other English too, by the way, because that's who they have the most contact with so they are more likely to get into a serious relationship with them. People of the same religion also tend to have a similar culture and similar values, often associating mostly with people of that religion because they have so many similarities and usually live in the same communities.

Also, you're born as an ethnicity and you choose religion.

[JGonzo]

But skin color can be deceiving. There are some black people and some latinos with lighter skin who at first glance are often thought to be white.

Is because those people (maybe including you) are white.

I once read a post where BlackDagger said that you cannot chose what race are you, no matter how much "black" or "mestizo" you think you are, if you look white to society, you are damn white and to deny it is to deny your own privilege.

I'm amazed that in a site where the dogma is "race is a social construct", there can still be claims of unscientific one drop rule.

This is common position that white latin americans take very often, to deny their own whiteness thanks to the silly "La Raza cosmica" concept.
In places where such a big racial gap in many areas exists, this is counter productive

That's why I'm afraid that many people want to completely destroy the concept of race as it was destroyed in most latin american countries.
It's very difficult to fight the racial inequalities when every one says that "it's just class, race doesn't exist" and white people deny their own whiteness thanks to a token grandfather and other common ethnicities in power like asians, jews and middle easterns contribute to the whitening process of the elite.

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

Indeed, it would be a genocide if blue eyes were to die out, a bloodless genocide.

No it wouldn't be. That is a gross misapplication of the word "genocide." Don't you see the difference between a light person who chooses to have a baby with a dark person (and vice versa) and committing murders with the intention of exterminating an ethnicity?

What exactly do you mean by racial consciousness anyways? I am pretty aware of my heritage and where I come from, but I'm not a racist. It seems that when people say "racially aware" what they really mean is racist.

Racism and sexism are both diversions from class struggle and working class solidarity because they cause people who have only their own labor to sell, men and women, blacks and whites, to see each other as enemies when there is no good reason for men and women or blacks and whites to be enemies. In fact it is the opposite; we are all dependent on one another and connected in some way.

[More Fire for the People]

Racial and gender conscious do not conflict with class consciousness. Nor does class consciousness conflict with feminism or self-determination. Consciousness is the process of understanding the history, origins, and future projections of one's class, gender, or race.

For instance, a person of white ethnicity who is conscious of her whiteness understands the origins of "whiteness", the role of whiteness in determining history, and, ultimately, realizing the need to abolish white privilege.

[9]

Racial/ethnic consciousness and gender consciousness only conflict with class consciousness when the ethnicity/gender is placed above the class. For example, if an Afro-American identifies with other Afro-Americans, regardless of their class, more than non-Afro-Americans within his/her own class and regards this identity as being equally or more significant than class, this is a problem. Another example, if a female identifies with females of other classes more than males within her own class, this is the same problem. However, I see nothing wrong with embracing and appreciating one's own culture and heritage (and in fact I think the human race would be impoverished and insipid without a broad degree of ethno-cultural diversity), so long as class consciousness is developed and class is considered the principal transcendent identity category and workers organize themselves accordingly. I don't see any reason why other forms of identity need to be discarded for workers to unite on a class basis.

[graffic]

cappiej, you have some fucked up ideas.

Because race is such an arbitrary thing (a person with a "black" parent and a "white" parent, you say is either both or no race?), it makes no sense to use it for anything at all.
To claim that "white/European" is a race, is just stupid! People in the south of Europe tend to have more "olive" skin, and darker hair.

Why skin colour? Why not eye colour? That's a definable trait, your eyes are either one colour or another (no worrying about tints). If one parent has blue eyes, and the other brown, the children will probably have brown eyes (not half-blue, half brown), getting rid of the whole "half-race" crap.

Bah, racism, and even beliving that race exists as an objective physical fact is so stupid... And irrational.

Well skin colour often tends to link in with culture and ethnicity. There is no cultural or ethnic ties to brown eyes people or blue eyed people. Jazz and gospel singing came from predominantly african americans living in America.

There is no relevant biological difference between different peoples of the earth. There is only different cultures. But I don't know how we can live in equality when there are so many different religions and cultures that are mutually exclusive.

Do you think it is the weakness of mankind to cling to nationalism or religion and reject co-operation and love with fellow human beings? Or is it the alpha-male competitive macho psychology which has driven mankind to war and to multi-national corporations exploiting millions of helpless souls. I think there are many people who want to co-operate and use resources for the good of all peoples but I also think there are many people who want to get very rich. I think the work ethic is so important with regard to exploitation. Many people in South America tend to be very relaxed and workers rights seen as much more of a priority than driving relentlessly for profit. If people just chill out and forget race, culture, class, gender or sexuality and relax about the desire for constant wealth we can all live in one big happy utopia.

[cappiej]

No it wouldn't be. That is a gross misapplication of the word "genocide." Don't you see the difference between a light person who chooses to have a baby with a dark person (and vice versa) and committing murders with the intention of exterminating an ethnicity?

What exactly do you mean by racial consciousness anyways? I am pretty aware of my heritage and where I come from, but I'm not a racist. It seems that when people say "racially aware" what they really mean is racist.

Racism and sexism are both diversions from class struggle and working class solidarity because they cause people who have only their own labor to sell, men and women, blacks and whites, to see each other as enemies when there is no good reason for men and women or blacks and whites to be enemies. In fact it is the opposite; we are all dependent on one another and connected in some way.

I can, see the difference, all I'm saying is I want there to be Black people in 500 years and Whites. As its going there won't be. Not much we can do about it but I don't think its good.

[Pogue]

It would be impossible to develop 'racial conciousness' because there is no collective racial interest grounded in reality for it to be based on.

[cappiej]

It would be impossible to develop 'racial conciousness' because there is no collective racial interest grounded in reality for it to be based on.

You make a good point (no, really) but I still disagree.

Being working class, or middle class or upper class is temporary, race is coded in our DNA, nothing you can do about it, just like gender, ergo it makes more sense to me to group with others around that, if one feels the need to group at all.

[More Fire for the People]

Race is not coded in our DNA. Races do not exist. "Race" as a category of people only exists in a historical/cultural context. African Americans are not so because of their DNA but because of their shared history and culture.