Opinions of Hard Hat Riots

[Richard Nixon]

What is your opinion of the "Hard Hat" Riots in New York City in 1970 where the working class union members defeated student rioters? Personally I have great admiration for the patriotic union members who took a good action for public order. It's also rather ironic that bankers,attorneys, and other Wall Street regulars attempted to help the rioters. So what do you think? Quick Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_Hat_Riot

[Pogue]

I think its evidence of what happens when workers are filled with false conciousness in their ideology by reactionary union leaders and capitalist political hegemony. This happens from time to time, for example we have seen strikes in support of racists like Enoch Powell. I think its significant how few workers took part in this as opposed to say, the thousands of workers who have taken part in progressive and revolutionary campaigns. Small areas of ideology which contradict the interests of the class are easily defeated through struggle and discussion. For example, at the outbreak of the First World War many workers in Russia backed it in a patriotic wave, but when they realised how anti-working class and miserable the war was they rallied behind the revolutionaries and had a revolution against it and the state that was forcing them into it.

But then again your probably trolling so why am I bothering with a serious response.

[Jack]

Oh you've got to love those brave patriotic Americans: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abolitionist_riots_(1834)

[#FF0000]

So a bunch of construction workers go in and beat up kids who are pissed off about national guardsmen shooting kids in the face?

What is good about this

[Trystan]

Patriotism? Do you real believe in that, do you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W27wBf7Jw34

[Qwerty Dvorak]

I think this thread is indicative of how badly the left handles criticism, or any discussion that isn't supportive of left-wing ideology. I've only just heard about this but it seems like a very interesting incident which could generate some quality discussion, but the posts in this thread don't do the topic justice. The only serious reply was qualified by calling the OP a troll. Can I ask, if the OP was a troll thread, then what OI thread isn't just trolling?

[danyboy27]

i think the whole incident was regrettable, that one group of people supress the freedom of speech of another one, and that the us governement failed to stop this.

i guess the member of that union seen those people has lazy bastard who didnt have a fucking clue of what life was so they decided to beat them up.



btw its cool someone mentionned this event, didnt know that fact before today.

[#FF0000]

i guess the member of that union seen those people has lazy bastard who didnt have a fucking clue of what life was so they decided to beat them up.


But they were protesting the war. Unless those construction workers were also Vietnam veterans, then they "don't have a fucking clue" either.


I think this thread is indicative of how badly the left handles criticism, or any discussion that isn't supportive of left-wing ideology. I've only just heard about this but it seems like a very interesting incident which could generate some quality discussion, but the posts in this thread don't do the topic justice. The only serious reply was qualified by calling the OP a troll. Can I ask, if the OP was a troll thread, then what OI thread isn't just trolling?

Things I don't see in this thread:

1) Criticism of the left

I also don't see what could really come from this discussion. I mean, the communists here will all oppose the riot because it was a bunch of high school and college students getting beat up by construction workers, and OP already supports it, because it was a bunch of high school and college students getting beat up by construction workers for America.

I mean, maybe there are some questions OP could ask based on the event, but I don't think it's anything that couldn't be answered really quickly and easily.

[Richard Nixon]

But they were protesting the war. Unless those construction workers were also Vietnam veterans, then they "don't have a fucking clue" either.





They were not Vietnam veterans (they were too old) but many, indeed most had served previously in the military in World War II and the Korean War.

[#FF0000]

They were not Vietnam veterans (they were too old) but many, indeed most had served previously in the military in World War II and the Korean War.

Fair enough. Still, isn't a really valid stance, though, since you don't need to be a soldier to have an educated opinion on war and foreign policy.

[Richard Nixon]

Fair enough. Still, isn't a really valid stance, though, since you don't need to be a soldier to have an educated opinion on war and foreign policy.

That's true, however that would imply that even the construction workers who never went to war could have an equally valid opinion in Vietnam as the students.

[Jazzratt]

That's true, however that would imply that even the construction workers who never went to war could have an equally valid opinion in Vietnam as the students.

Right. Now it all comes down to which side was right and I simply don't see that being the ones supporting throwing their fellow workers into an unwinnable meat grinder for no real gain. Then again I don't imagine people, on either side, were really discussing the nuances of their positions.

[Matty_UK]

What is your opinion of the "Hard Hat" Riots in New York City in 1970 where the working class union members defeated student rioters? Personally I have great admiration for the patriotic union members who took a good action for public order. It's also rather ironic that bankers,attorneys, and other Wall Street regulars attempted to help the rioters. So what do you think? Quick Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_Hat_Riot

Well, one can risk being too dogmatic and saying that the material conditions of the working class are objectively anti-capitalist, and any deviation from this is the influence of "false consciousness" coming from mass media, the education system, and other parts of the state ideological apparatus.

Whilst I think this is true to an extent - certainly, socialist/communist and social democratic parties that become mainstream always find their pillar of support in the proletariat or peasantry - it's important to remember that there are lots of other influences on the ideological outlook of the working class not necessarily stemming from propaganda. Military action isn't necessarily against the material interests of the working class in that country in question - it provides employment for one thing, and risk of death or injury isn't something thought about by young men naively craving for adventure. (and this DOESN'T make them psychopaths, young revolutionary leftist males fantasise about revolutionary war heroics too)

Once there in the reality of it, squaddies need to mutually support and reassure each other and build up solidarity, and mutual support and reinforcement is generally going to end up with them convincing each other they're risking their lives for something important. A similar scenario happens with their families and friends back home, who will support the war as a means of supporting their loved one, and this has an influence on the entire community. This is why the more narrowly defined working class (the section of the proletariat that has not gone into higher education) is generally more pro-war than the section of the proletariat that is better off and commonly referred to as the "middle class."

But on the other hand, it is based on concern for loved ones and not so much on nationalism as it appears, so when it is perceived that the soldiers are being taken advantage of by the powers that be, this support for military action has the potential to flip decisively in the opposite direction.

What pogue says about "reactionary union leaders and capitalist political hegemony" is the sort of thing that stops us from being taken seriously. Not that I'm denying the role of these factors, but they are minor compared to the above - in fact, I find the working class is less influenced by ideological hegemony than the professional classes who, on the whole, completely internalise liberal-democratic ideology.

[khad]

Not all opinions are equally valid.

[Richard Nixon]

I think people who actually served in the military has a right to have a strong opinion even more so then other people.

[Jazzratt]

But I think people who actually served in the military has a right to have a strong opinion even more so then other people.

Why? For one thing military personal are meant almost entiurely to obey orders, not have opinions and for another a lot of them tend to be jingoistic morons. Unless you have geniune expertise on a matter your opinion is worth just as much as anothers.That's how opinions work.

[Richard Nixon]

Why? For one thing military personal are meant almost entiurely to obey orders, not have opinions and for another a lot of them tend to be jingoistic morons. Unless you have geniune expertise on a matter your opinion is worth just as much as anothers.That's how opinions work.

They were in similar situations-on the job learning is still learning.

[#FF0000]

They were in similar situations-on the job learning is still learning.

They did what they were told though. That's all they know from first-hand information. Just because you're a soldier doesn't mean you have to understand the context in which your orders are given, just like being a burger flipper doesn't mean you understand how to run a restaurant.

If you're going to use that argument, you can't say "UH BUT WORKERS NEED BOSSES AND CAN'T SELF-MANAGE" either. Just a thought.

[PRC-UTE]

What is your opinion of the "Hard Hat" Riots in New York City in 1970 where the working class union members defeated student rioters? Personally I have great admiration for the patriotic union members who took a good action for public order. It's also rather ironic that bankers,attorneys, and other Wall Street regulars attempted to help the rioters. So what do you think? Quick Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_Hat_Riot

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_aristocracy

Simple as

[Starry Plough]

Its simply the successful implementation of "divide and conquer" strategy.

[Forward Union]

I have great admiration for the patriotic union members

ur doin it wrong

[Bud Struggle]

Well in my little world where I interact with working people and often with union members I see them as being for the most part rather conservative in their thought process and political understandings. Most that I know were Bush supporters and then changed to Obama in the last election--not because of his politics, but because of his personal charisma.

While workers would always like a "raise" I don't see any interest in upsetting the established order in the least. And for the most part I don't think workers--or at least those here in Florida think mush of established unions.

I was briefly in the IWW and I didn't see any real worker participation in that union--almost all of the members were students with part time jobs.

It's going to to take a lot of work to radicalize workers at least here in the USA.

[Pogue]

Well in my little world where I interact with working people and often with union members I see them as being for the most part rather conservative in their thought process and political understandings. Most that I know were Bush supporters and then changed to Obama in the last election--not because of his politics, but because of his personal charisma.

While workers would always like a "raise" I don't see any interest in upsetting the established order in the least. And for the most part I don't think workers--or at least those here in Florida think mush of established unions.

I was briefly in the IWW and I didn't see any real worker participation in that union--almost all of the members were students with part time jobs.

It's going to to take a lot of work to radicalize workers at least here in the USA.

I don't think this is true and the numerous historical examples of workers radicalising rapdily are there for all to see, such as Russia 1917 which is probably one of the best examples. Workers went from being on the most part passive and nationalistic to revolutionary.

Also, I don't think the amount of workers in radical unions today is even relevant. We've just come out of a period of low struggle (the 90s) so its to be expected.

[Richard Nixon]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_aristocracy

Simple as

Yet the people the labourers beat up were elite students many, indeed most from middle or even upper class families.


Its simply the successful implementation of "divide and conquer" strategy.

In addition to above I can't see how you can classify rich students as at all part of the working class.


I don't think this is true and the numerous historical examples of workers radicalising rapdily are there for all to see, such as Russia 1917 which is probably one of the best examples. Workers went from being on the most part passive and nationalistic to revolutionary.

Also, I don't think the amount of workers in radical unions today is even relevant. We've just come out of a period of low struggle (the 90s) so its to be expected.

Conditions in the working class of Russia in 1917 was way worse then they are in the US today so unless this recession becomes Great Depression II and then concurrently World War 3 happens I don't think the working class is going to radicalize anytime soon.

[bcbm]

The students were holding a protest, not "rioting." The riot was initiated by the counter-protestors. Try to read your link before posting, eh?