Is it ethical for an anarchist to be a firefighter?

[SoupIsGoodFood]

I ask this because its always been sort of my dream to be a firefighter, but it means working for the state and accepting a tax payer funded pay check. Plus you can't be in a union. However, I don't know if it is ok because anarchism is opposed to capitalism and unless you want to be a crust punk, you sort of have to get a job in capitalistic society. I'm not sure, I figure the good it does and the people's lives you would save would outweigh the fact that it's supported by the state, but I'd like to hear your take on it.

[gorillafuck]

I ask this because its always been sort of my dream to be a firefighter, but it means working for the state and accepting a tax payer funded pay check. Plus you can't be in a union. However, I don't know if it is ok because anarchism is opposed to capitalism and unless you want to be a crust punk, you sort of have to get a job in capitalistic society. I'm not sure, I figure the good it does and the people's lives you would save would outweigh the fact that it's supported by the state, but I'd like to hear your take on it.
If you use that logic, an anarchist can't work in any publicly funded job.

its fine.

[FreeFocus]

Firefighting is one of the few respectable and honorable jobs that is sponsored by the state. It is rarely involved in oppression (save for the civil rights movement, when protesters were hosed down, and even then it wasn't the institution itself, I would say).

Also, I think "ethical" was the wrong word, you may have been looking for "consistent" or something. Firefighting is saving lives.

[scarletghoul]

Go for it. There's no use trying to boycott capitalism, it will have no effect. And anyway its not like firefighters exploit labour

[SoupIsGoodFood]

I guess your right, I just would feel a little bit hypocritcal opposing the state and accepting a state paycheck, but I guess since I'm forced to pay into the system too its not so bad.

[LOLseph Stalin]

I ask this because its always been sort of my dream to be a firefighter, but it means working for the state and accepting a tax payer funded pay check. Plus you can't be in a union. However, I don't know if it is ok because anarchism is opposed to capitalism and unless you want to be a crust punk, you sort of have to get a job in capitalistic society. I'm not sure, I figure the good it does and the people's lives you would save would outweigh the fact that it's supported by the state, but I'd like to hear your take on it.

Three words: Follow your dream. :)

[gorillafuck]

I guess your right, I just would feel a little bit hypocritcal opposing the state and accepting a state paycheck, but I guess since I'm forced to pay into the system too its not so bad.
If you're not accepting a state paycheck you are accepting a paycheck from your boss.

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

I'm big on individuality. If you wanted to be a serial killer, I'd tell you to do that. I wouldn't like you, but I'd still say you should try. I'd try to stop you, but you should still follow your dreams.

If you want to make it into a matter of ethics, then I say it's still completely legitimate. I try to operate in the working world by somewhat suppressing Marxist criticisms.

You have a job. You're better off with one than without one. Be happy and look for ways to improve your situation. You can recognize injustices and changes that need to be made. However, you should always try to appreciate your situation in some form.

If you can never be happy with anything less than perfection, and you're not a one man revolutionary army, you're going to be pretty disappointed with life. Just be happy and fight fires.

Even if there was theoretically some evil (which I doubt it), it's likely outweighed by the great public service. People respect firefighters because they do something that is always good. Fighting fires (ignoring that you might occasionally save the next Hitler). Police operate on the assumption that they are weapons and tools. People respect them a lot less.

Is it possible to be a police officer and an anarchist? A laywer and an anarchist? Probably, but it's a fine line. If you arrested someone for smoking cocaine and you could easily have not arrested them, with no repercussions, I'd say you're not much of an anarchist.

An anarchist might accept the political or legal framework to undermine it in a larger sense. However, some anarchists don't even agree with that. It's tough.

Firefighters are safe, I think.

[ʇsıɥɔɹɐuɐ ıɯɐbıɹo]

Sure, but if your special talent at the local anarchist fair is juggling Molotov Cocktails, you can bet people will be apprehensive. ;)

[Pogue]

Oh my god of course it fucking is, its absolutely fine, don't ask such a fucking stupid question. There is no possible world in which being a firefighter would be 'unethical' for an anarchist.

I can't understand how you'd ask such a moronic question.

[SoupIsGoodFood]

Chill dude, I was just askin the question, whether or not it was ethical or consistent for an anarchist to work for the state, even as a firefighter.

[GPDP]

Oh my god of course it fucking is, its absolutely fine, don't ask such a fucking stupid question. There is no possible world in which being a firefighter would be 'unethical' for an anarchist.

I can't understand how you'd ask such a moronic question.

Your ass. Calm it the fuck down. It was an innocent question for shit's sake. Goddamn.

Anyway, I concur with everyone here. Firefighting is a most respectable job, and you should have no qualms in pursuing it if such is your dream.

Now, if you had said policeman, we would have probably restricted you by now. :D

[F9]

Oh my god of course it fucking is, its absolutely fine, don't ask such a fucking stupid question. There is no possible world in which being a firefighter would be 'unethical' for an anarchist.

I can't understand how you'd ask such a moronic question.

Consider this a verbal warning!
Quit that tone with people asking questions!!Next time is a warning point.This was a moronic answer the question was not moronic!
If you have problems with people's question i will ask you skipping them.This tone is NOT acceptable to be used especially in people asking questions.

Moved btw

Fuserg9:star:

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

Yeah I don't think it's a stupid question. A lot of Kantian ethics exist in mainstream society. Kant generally says you shouldn't do "any" action that is unethical.

There are reasons to believe accepting wage slavery at all is unethical. I don't subscribe to them, but I could easily make an argument for idealized morality.

For instance, morality is the best of all possible worlds (Leibniz and others have held this view). The best way to achieve an ideal is if everyone acts according to how they would act if they ideal already existed (Kantian flavor). An ideal society would not have people offering or accepting unjust wages. No one should accept unjust wages.

Really, if it's pragmatic for me to kill someone innocent (which is typically wrong), a lot of people wouldn't forgive me. Why do we forgive ourselves for taking wages when, if we didn't, society might change. More specifically, if we do so because "nobody else will follow" we are assuming that other people won't act ethically. This is degrading to them according to Kantian philosophy.

Really, I could make an ethical argument for you to stab yourself or to work for 1 dollar an hour in a sweat shop. Ethics is very complicated.

Is it legitimate to continue living when you could stab yourself and donate your organs to save the lives of many? Probably. I've considered that it might be illegitimate.

You have to consider arguments with a principle of neutrality then come to a conclusion about their legitimacy. Questions should never be approached as simple. If we do that, we may lose complex truths. It's better to assume someone has something legitimate to add, and waste time, than assume they have nothing to add and lose important information (in the spirit of J.S. Mill).

[ZeroNowhere]

It's not hypocritical unless your beliefs involve not taking state jobs.

[Gleb]

How is accepting paychecks from the capitalists somehow better thing to do? Just go for it, it's not like you have any options besides being wage slaved by immoral institutions like the state as we know it.

[CommunityBeliever]

Oh my god of course it fucking is, its absolutely fine, don't ask such a fucking stupid questionThis is indeed a moronic question. Jesus. I really used to think leftists were the type of people that did not mind contributing to society and helping other people out but apparently most of us are just lazy. The reason our movement hasn't been so successful is none of the people in it want to get anything done.

Before the state came around people had to purchase a firefighters insurance and if they did not have it then firefighters would drive right on past the persons burning house. That would be the reality if it was still capitalist based. You should be proud that you are working for the state rather then a capitalist and that you are actually allowed to help people even if those people do not directly pay you loads of money.

I do not really see two ways about it, working as a firefighter for the state is one of the best modern jobs you can have in my point of view, what would you prefer that you have no job at all? At least this way you can say that you are helping people regardless of how much money they have.


you sort of have to get a job in capitalistic society.If you do not get a job as a leftist then you will really be hypocritical yourself because you will claim to represent the workers while not being one yourself. If you have no job at all you are not helping anybody at all. My god this question is stupid.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Many people here - myself included - are libertarian socialists and public teaching (hopefuls). There are a lot of respectful jobs the state sponsors. Hell, even some of the more unglamorous jobs are necessary. I met a socialist working for the IRS.

[SoupIsGoodFood]

I think working for the IRS is almost as bad as being a cop, but thats another thread. I'm just saying there are less chances to unionize as a firefighter as opposed to working in the private sector.

[FreeFocus]

I think working for the IRS is almost as bad as being a cop, but thats another thread. I'm just saying there are less chances to unionize as a firefighter as opposed to working in the private sector.

Depends on what you're looking for in a field of work. You won't be directly saving any lives manufacturing furniture, most likely.

[Unregistered]

Take the job, as an anarchist, I say it is nearly impossible to organize an independent firefighting organization so, if helping the most people and fulfilling your dreams means the downside of a state paycheck, christ, it could be much worse.
Besides, you could offset the moral queasiness by gently introducing some of the good public hearted workers to ideas that might open some eyes, and gain some skills. We'll need firefighters post state, too.

[Misanthrope]

The fire fighters I've talked to have a strong patriotic sentiment to them. But you're helping society which is what anarchism is about, good for you.

[Hydro]

If you do not get a job as a leftist then you will really be hypocritical yourself because you will claim to represent the workers while not being one yourself. If you have no job at all you are not helping anybody at all. My god this question is stupid.
You don't need a job to be in the working class.

[SoupIsGoodFood]

Could a firefighter or any other state worker be a member of the IWW? And yes, I've figured out it was a stupid question. But when it comes down to it, I'm just a dumbass high school student, and next time I have a question about leftism, I'll stay off the big boy leftist forums, sorry for being so fucking retarded.

[F9]

This is indeed a moronic question. Jesus. I really used to think leftists were the type of people that did not mind contributing to society and helping other people out but apparently most of us are just lazy. The reason our movement hasn't been so successful is none of the people in it want to get anything done.


omg!What a stupid answer.And you are waiting people to take you serious?And with responses full of shit like that you think you can judge what the "moronic questions" are?No, you obviously cant...
What the fuck?!?!?Lazy?Dont want to contribute to society?Have you got ANY IDEA what you are talking about?Of course and we dont want to contribute to capitalism, of course and we dont want to contribute to the oppression.The reason we fail is that lots of people have no idea what they are talking about and they making the "proffesors".....



Before the state came around people had to purchase a firefighters insurance and if they did not have it then firefighters would drive right on past the persons burning house. That would be the reality if it was still capitalist based. You should be proud that you are working for the state rather then a capitalist and that you are actually allowed to help people even if those people do not directly pay you loads of money.

Yeah people, be proud working for the state that oppress you kill you etc etc.Be proud...Wtf are you on?:rolleyes:


If you do not get a job as a leftist then you will really be hypocritical yourself because you will claim to represent the workers while not being one yourself. If you have no job at all you are not helping anybody at all. My god this question is stupid.

And here we come to the stupidest quote of the day!!Getting a job in this system and working for it is "hypocritical" too at a point.Working within the system you want to overthrow what you call it?Instead refusing to work and add to the capitalist oppression you call it hypocrisy?What a binch of bullshit!I wont say its and the best thing to do, but nontheless its not hypocritical, is the last thing you could say....And if you claim that you have to be "fucked" by an opressor capitalist, or the state to help, then once again, you have no idea what you are talking about...
My god, your answer was stupid.

Oh yeah and just as i said to EQ, keep up this shitty attitude in here, and with people asking questions and you will be issued warning points.Why cant you understand what the Learning forum, and the fact that people asking question is?Its not for some of you idiots macho guys to come and show your strong debate powers, nor to show your great theory levels.Is to fucking help the questionare, if you cant, then just stop posting idiotic posts like the above...

Fuserg9:star:

[The Ungovernable Farce]

Could a firefighter or any other state worker be a member of the IWW?
The IWW would certainly accept them. Their boss prolly wouldn't want them to join, but I don't think they'd legally be able to stop them. Here in the UK, the firefighter's union's pretty strong, dunno about the US.

And yes, I've figured out it was a stupid question. But when it comes down to it, I'm just a dumbass high school student, and next time I have a question about leftism, I'll stay off the big boy leftist forums, sorry for being so fucking retarded.
Aww. Don't let one person being a dick put you off.

[mykittyhasaboner]

Go for it, become a firefighter, there's nothing wrong with that. Unionize that shit or something...

[Il Medico]

Fire fighter is one of the few respectable jobs funded by the government. Go for it, it is never unethical to save lives!:)

[Pogue]

Consider this a verbal warning!
Quit that tone with people asking questions!!Next time is a warning point.This was a moronic answer the question was not moronic!
If you have problems with people's question i will ask you skipping them.This tone is NOT acceptable to be used especially in people asking questions.

Moved btw

Fuserg9:star:

I'm sorry but I can't accept this as legitimate coming from you, your post style is amongst one of the most arogant and insulting when dealing people, its almost aggressive. Your being hypocritical.

To the OP, I am sorry, I posted that comment at about 3AM and I was a bit pissed off with life generally which I shouldn't have taken out over a forum at someone I don't know and that was immature. I'd quite like to be a firefighter too, and I see no reason why it in anyway contradicts anarchism, and I think the line of argument used by many which says 'anarchists can't get a job working for the state' is frustratingly ridiculous and one I come across in argument all the time. Theoretically this would mean no anarcho-communist can ever get a job because the choice is between capitalism or the state, and totally misunderstands and ignores our politics and position in society as working class people.

I didn't know they can't unionise over in the states. I live in the UK and here they can, the FBU (Fire Brigade Union) is considered one of the most radical and militant unions, they went on strike in 2003 and that was the first strike I experienced, I remember we used to beep them in our car as we drove past.

[Chapter 24]

Fires know neither the proletariat nor bourgeoisie.

[Pogue]

Fires know neither the proletariat nor bourgeoisie.

Fires are classless, hence communist!

[eyedrop]

Fires know neither the proletariat nor bourgeoisie. I would guess that bourgeoisie houses usually has better fire security measures, but it may even out with all the fat cigars.

[CommunityBeliever]

then just stop posting idiotic posts like the above...

I think I will. I think I will stop coming to this website.

Ya capitalism is bad. I do not like it either, but I only have one life to live and I am not going to waste any more of it whining with a pack of losers on an internet forum.

I am going to actually get something done. Peace.

[SoupIsGoodFood]

I'm sorry but I can't accept this as legitimate coming from you, your post style is amongst one of the most arogant and insulting when dealing people, its almost aggressive. Your being hypocritical.

To the OP, I am sorry, I posted that comment at about 3AM and I was a bit pissed off with life generally which I shouldn't have taken out over a forum at someone I don't know and that was immature. I'd quite like to be a firefighter too, and I see no reason why it in anyway contradicts anarchism, and I think the line of argument used by many which says 'anarchists can't get a job working for the state' is frustratingly ridiculous and one I come across in argument all the time. Theoretically this would mean no anarcho-communist can ever get a job because the choice is between capitalism or the state, and totally misunderstands and ignores our politics and position in society as working class people.

I didn't know they can't unionise over in the states. I live in the UK and here they can, the FBU (Fire Brigade Union) is considered one of the most radical and militant unions, they went on strike in 2003 and that was the first strike I experienced, I remember we used to beep them in our car as we drove past.

Its cool, although I didn't realize that I was immature, just figured that I wasn't too knowledgable about anarchism. But I guess being a teenager is by definition being immature. Whatever. They can unionize, but they can't strike. But, really, is a firefighter strike moral? So many innocent people would die, I didn't know it was allowed in the UK though.

[Il Medico]

Its cool, although I didn't realize that I was immature, just figured that I wasn't too knowledgable about anarchism. But I guess being a teenager is by definition being immature. Whatever. They can unionize, but they can't strike. But, really, is a firefighter strike moral? So many innocent people would die, I didn't know it was allowed in the UK though.
The fact that your job is necessary is the reason in the U.S, government workers (teachers, Firefighters, police. etc, etc) can't strike. It would give the workers to much leverage to make the bourgeois bend to their will. Basically in America and every other country your rights depend on two things.
1. Who you are
2. Whether you having that right would threaten the government and the bourgeois' power.

[gorillafuck]

I think I will. I think I will stop coming to this website.

Ya capitalism is bad. I do not like it either, but I only have one life to live and I am not going to waste any more of it whining with a pack of losers on an internet forum.

I am going to actually get something done. Peace.
Apparently fuserg struck a nerve....

Anywho, I thought firefighters could unionize....

Edit: Oh, they can unionize but can't strike?

That fuckin' sucks.

[PRC-UTE]

I ask this because its always been sort of my dream to be a firefighter, but it means working for the state and accepting a tax payer funded pay check. Plus you can't be in a union. However, I don't know if it is ok because anarchism is opposed to capitalism and unless you want to be a crust punk, you sort of have to get a job in capitalistic society. I'm not sure, I figure the good it does and the people's lives you would save would outweigh the fact that it's supported by the state, but I'd like to hear your take on it.

It does blatantly contradict the anarchist idea of organising without the state, but I think you should go for it. Embrace Marxism, we love the state :)

also, in many countries firefighters are more nationalist and discriminatory towards women and minorities, so having you in there will help to continue fixe that situation.

[Black Sheep]

Firefighting is one of the few respectable and honorable jobs that is sponsored by the state.
emphasis mine

I just want to point out here that 'the state' is not 'the people'-
just a 'public corporation-toy' with which the country's monopolies can rape around and steal from.

So it's not 'better' if a job is state paid.It just comes with the illusion of 'duty to the citizens', which is a romantic fairy tale in a class system.

Of course you can argue that the value of your labor does not go DIRECTLY to the cappies' pockets.

[Agrippa]

Firefighters tend to go either way during the class-war. For example, they sided with the police during the 2005/2006 uprisings in France, but after 9/11, (which screwed over firefighters the most, not because of Al-Qaeda's acts of violence, but because of the toxic chemicals used by capitalists in manufacturing skyscrapers that were released into the air) firefighters in New York started their own brief anti-cop insurrection.

Therefore I think it of great importance that anarchists inflitrate, recruit amongst, and organize inside fire departments. Being a firefighter will impart on you many skills and experiences necessary for the class-war, and it also pays well. So, yes, go for it.

[Blake's Baby]

Why would an anarchist have a problem with being fire-fighter? I'm not trying to imply that the question is stupid, I just don't understand the basis for it.

Firstly, we can't end capitalism or the state just by wishing, refusal, boycotting or whatever. As individuals we don't have that power. So refusing to work for the state is just about finding something you are morally comfortable with.

That said, how could being a fire-fighter be unethical? Your job is to save lives. Sure, it's also to protect property, which is a bit more problematic, but you don't (as the police do) protect property at the expense of lives. You could even argue that protection of preoperty from fire is useful, in that we might need that building/fuel/food/paper during or after the revolution.

If it's just working for the state that's the problem, why is that worse than working for a private capitalist or a corporation? There is no 'clean money' in capitalism. The state is no less moral an employer in that regard than any other, as long as you're not actually helping in it's repressive function. And despite the few instances people have listed about firehoses turned on demonstrators, the fire service is not part of the repressive functions of the state.

You didn't make the capitalist system. Until we all abolish it, your choices are 1-work (for state or company); 2-self-employment; 3-some form of welfare; 4-crime; 5-being a boss; 6-being independently wealthy.

Several of those I'd suspect are just not options. Of those that are left, why fixate on working for the state as being the worst?

And really, as most others have said, you'd be helping people, actually rescuing people from life-threatening situations. How can that be bad?

[DancingLarry]

After the revolution, we all will be firefighters in our anarchist communes, and you will be the one with the special knowledge to educate the rest of us in your commune in the tactics, techniques and technologies of fire fighting.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

Its cool, although I didn't realize that I was immature, just figured that I wasn't too knowledgable about anarchism. But I guess being a teenager is by definition being immature.
Maturity is over-rated.

Whatever. They can unionize, but they can't strike. But, really, is a firefighter strike moral? So many innocent people would die, I didn't know it was allowed in the UK though.
In the UK, when firefighters strike the army are brought in as scabs. Which is awesome, cos not only does it mean that innocent people don't have to die because of it, but it also directly places pressure on the state's abilities to fight wars. Also it's worth bearing in mind that firefighters don't just strike for the hell of it, so if they do it's likely to be in response to something like job losses, which'd also endanger people's lives.

It does blatantly contradict the anarchist idea of organising without the state, but I think you should go for it. Embrace Marxism, we love the state :)

No it doesn't. How would it do that? Did you think at all before you wrote that? Do you know what anarchism is?

[Clear Air Turbulence]

Go for it. If you've got to have a job, then y'know, saving peoples lives isn't a bad one.

As Eddie Izzard said;
'You have good cop/bad cop, but not good firefighter/bad firefighter'

[leveller]

I dont see a contradiction between being an anarchist and doing a job!
Everyone ends up working for the state in some way, remember where you pay your taxes to.
And you never know you might be the guy that gets the firefighters unionised!
They are here in Britain.

And as a marxist-leninist it'd be great to know theres at least one anarchist out their with a job! (Most of the ones i've met here have no visible means of support other than the dole,mummy and daddy or the incapacity benefit becuase they are 'pretending' to be mentally ill)

[ls]

:lol: Some responses in this thread are amazing.

Being exploited for your labour means you believe in the state? I guess being employed by a big corporation means you believe in Capitalism too.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

And as a marxist-leninist it'd be great to know theres at least one anarchist out their with a job! (Most of the ones i've met here have no visible means of support other than the dole,mummy and daddy or the incapacity benefit becuase they are 'pretending' to be mentally ill)
Accusing people of faking mental illness = not cool. And what exactly is wrong with being on the dole? I don't think it's great by any means, there's nothing progressive about being on the dole, but just writing off the 2.38 million people out of work seems a bit prejudiced.

[Revy]

There is nothing unethical about being a firefighter. The purpose of being one is to save lives. I'm sure there have been unethical firefighters, but it is not inherently unethical.

The idea that working for the state means you believe in the state is nonsensical, because the same could be said for anyone who has a job under capitalism, does that mean they believe in capitalism?

[StalinFanboy]

And as a marxist-leninist it'd be great to know theres at least one anarchist out their with a job! (Most of the ones i've met here have no visible means of support other than the dole,mummy and daddy or the incapacity benefit becuase they are 'pretending' to be mentally ill)
You can stop posting now.


Classist fuck.

[Black Dagger]

I don't see why not, firefighting is hardly a coercive element of the state. Also where i live the Firefighters union is actually one of the most politically militant (being composed of many anarchists and other communists).

[leveller]

Accusing people of faking mental illness = not cool. And what exactly is wrong with being on the dole? I don't think it's great by any means, there's nothing progressive about being on the dole, but just writing off the 2.38 million people out of work seems a bit prejudiced.


The anarchist in question is close friend and in deed faking mental illness and has been doing quite well at it for some 10 years now after spending two years studying up on how to play the role, so its not an accusation this is someone i know who hatched the plan in order to avoid having a job so they could spend more time involved in 'politics' which for him consists entirely of writing slogans on walls and trying to start riots, and blaming me personally for the krondstadt incident because i read trotskyist newspapers from time to time.

If you dont know whats wrong with being on the dole then you've probably never been on it, its the worst experience in the world, i spent 5 years on the dole and would rather die than go back to that miserable existence again.

[The Ungovernable Farce]

The anarchist in question is close friend and in deed faking mental illness and has been doing quite well at it for some 10 years now after spending two years studying up on how to play the role, so its not an accusation this is someone i know who hatched the plan in order to avoid having a job so they could spend more time involved in 'politics' which for him consists entirely of writing slogans on walls and trying to start riots, and blaming me personally for the krondstadt incident because i read trotskyist newspapers from time to time.
I don't know your friend so I can't speak for him, but it'd be good if you could avoid generalising to all anarchists from the basis of one person.

If you dont know whats wrong with being on the dole then you've probably never been on it, its the worst experience in the world, i spent 5 years on the dole and would rather die than go back to that miserable existence again.
Yes, I know exactly how dehumanising and shit being on the dole is. I wasn't the one talking about people on the dole in a way that suggests they're somehow less valuable, that was you.

[NecroCommie]

Of the five institutions often backed by state, army, the police, the fire brigade, the medical care and the church only two honestly help people. I see nothing wrong with joining some health care institution or the fire brigade.