What is to be done. . .

[Rascolnikova]

With people like TomK?

People who are incredibly nice, but deep down--on the rare occasions when one is able to pin them to their actual views--invariably believe incredibly despicable and harmful things?


On a current practical level, it's straightforward--keep talking to them and never forget what they are. In the long run, though. . . . If one is proposing a tactical outline of revolutionary change, this must be included.

We really can't just shoot them. :/

[F9]

You wanted to post this in CC maybe?:confused:

[Rascolnikova]

You wanted to post this in CC maybe?:confused:

lol. . .

no, sorry-- I wasn't talking about the board. I intended to raise the matter of re-education camps, practicalities of property re-distribution, etc, with regards to a particular population he represents.

[amandevsingh]

Take him to the Gulags!

[scarletghoul]

Well once we seize power we should just supress capitalist thought with propaganda, and violence when necessary (coup attempts etc). Eventually the capitalist thought will die out because people will come to like socialism so much, provided it's implemented correctly. We will just have to wait 100 years or so for all the capitalists to die, suppressing their ideology in the meantime.

[amandevsingh]

There is a problem here: can we suppress capitalist thought, without infringing on the workers' rights?

[Dust Bunnies]

My suggestion? He knowingly exploited the proletariat (he owns a factory). Shoot him. He may be a great guy but knowing exploiting the proletariat when so many other choices are available for so long is unforgivable. But if he gives up his ways before the revolution and makes up for it when the revolution occurs, then he can live.

Either the above or a camp where he does manual labor for the rest of his natural life. (Unless the clause kicks in)

I know TomK, TomK is a great guy, but if you make one exception it can cause problems down the road. Letting them be on Revleft, giving them exposure to leftist thinking helps the cause of "conversion".

[scarletghoul]

There is a problem here: can we suppress capitalist thought, without infringing on the workers' rights?

Sure we can, as i said through propaganda. And also debate. Why would that infringe anyones rights?

[LOLseph Stalin]

When I first saw the title of this, I thought it was referring to the book by Vladimir Lenin. :p

[amandevsingh]

Sure we can, as i said through propaganda. And also debate. Why would that infringe anyones rights?

That is suppression of speech, I hate to sound like Barbara Walters talking with Castro, but that isn't a right that is lame privilege.


When I first saw the title of this, I thought it was referring to the book by Vladimir Lenin. http://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/smilies/001_tongue.gifHaha! So did I.


My suggestion? He knowingly exploited the proletariat (he owns a factory). Shoot him. He may be a great guy but knowing exploiting the proletariat when so many other choices are available for so long is unforgivable. But if he gives up his ways before the revolution and makes up for it when the revolution occurs, then he can live.

Either the above or a camp where he does manual labor for the rest of his natural life. (Unless the clause kicks in)

I know TomK, TomK is a great guy, but if you make one exception it can cause problems down the road. Letting them be on Revleft, giving them exposure to leftist thinking helps the cause of "conversion".

Don't shoot him. He should be put into the same conditions as everyone else, if he gives up his factory peacefully. That much is a irrevocable right of any person.

[Rjevan]

We really can't just shoot them. :/
Of course we can! Bullets are cheap and walls are built up fast and easily. :p

No, seriously, I would suggest some labour camps (everybody note: labour camps, not death camps) in which the tables are turned and these people now work for and contribute to the society and are re-educated as far as possibel. Those who get successfully re-educated will be released since they should now have realised how wrong they acted and shouldn't go on with their capitalist manners and those who refuse to learn and keep their old ways are held back in the labour camps, so that they are forced to help and work for those people they exploited once, if they don't do it voluntarily. This way they don't harm anybody anymore, don't spread their capitalist views and contribute to society.

[#FF0000]

lol violence fap fap fap

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

... If our cause is objectively just, rationally pursuade him.

If it's subjective just, tell him when outnumbered 500 to 1, it's best to stop whinning and start getting with the program.

Really, anyone with common sense will either agree on principle or agree due to intimidation. I can't see many people dieing for the "greater capitalist principles of wage exploitation." It's a fundamental injustice so I'll die before I give up X? I don't see that happening much.

[Kwisatz Haderach]

Deny him the ability to spread his views by anything other than word of mouth, and then simply ignore him.

After all, this is pretty much the approach used by most Western bourgeois states against leftists today. And it's working.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Shoot him? Labor camps? Re-education? Censorship? Am I actually reading this?

*Pukes.*

[Dust Bunnies]

Shoot him? Labor camps? Re-education? Censorship? Am I actually reading this?

*Pukes.*


What would you suggest we do? Just let them run happily through our new Socialist society? We build societies not for kicks but to last and survive. To allow our former enemy to skip around ladde dadde da would open a possibility of counter-revolution.

[mykittyhasaboner]

Deny them their freedom of speech and organization, as well as to defend their 'property rights' (i.e. expropriation), combat their existence as a class in general. That's about all that can be done. If this is violent, or "peaceful", depends entirely on the situation.

[*Viva La Revolucion*]

When I first saw the title of this, I thought it was referring to the book by Vladimir Lenin. :p

So did I!

But who's TomK?

[Schrödinger's Cat]

What would you suggest we do? Just let them run happily through our new Socialist society?I'm not sure how happily a capitalist can run in a socialist society, but I digress.


We build societies not for kicks but to last and survive. To allow our former enemy to skip around ladde dadde da would open a possibility of counter-revolution.A counter revolution initiated by whom? If the state is under the democratic control of working-class citizens, the only way for capitalists to reinstate themselves in positions of authority is to garner sympathy from the very same majority in power. In other words, you've built up a false scenario where socialism has been "achieved" yet the ideology of workers remains oriented around capitalism.

Let ideas battle it out freely. We don't need the censor's thumb determining what is right and what is wrong. What are we scared of? People picking a weaker model of commerce and governance over a more beneficial one?

[Die Neue Zeit]

Deny him the ability to spread his views by anything other than word of mouth, and then simply ignore him.

After all, this is pretty much the approach used by most Western bourgeois states against leftists today. And it's working.

While we don't have the mass media (which I addressed in a Theory thread), the Internet doesn't qualify as "word of mouth."

[Kwisatz Haderach]

While we don't have the mass media (which I addressed in a Theory thread), the Internet doesn't qualify as "word of mouth."
True, but still, there is vastly more propaganda in favour of capitalism on the internet than in favour of communism.


What would you suggest we do? Just let them run happily through our new Socialist society?
Yes, actually. If they have no more property than a worker, no more power than a worker, and no more income than a worker, how exactly are they going to start and finance a counter-revolution? How will they get anyone to fight for them?

Capitalists are only dangerous while they still have their property, and maybe for a few years after that (while they can still pull strings based on the promise that they will soon get their property back and reward their followers then).

[NecroCommie]

By the time our glorious revolution spreads salvation throughout the world, not many dare to openly declare allegiance to the decadent leaders of the past. We shall shoot anyone who still do by that time. As far as I am concerned, not even now should anyone have the right to defend wage slavery and the ownership of common goods and labour. Why should we allow such talk, when even today no-one is allowed to openly spread the foul racism or traditional slavery.

[Rjevan]

Yes, actually. If they have no more property than a worker, no more power than a worker, and no more income than a worker, how exactly are they going to start and finance a counter-revolution? How will they get anyone to fight for them?
With the help of the same lame promises of "richdom, cars and caviar for everybody who works hard enough" and "from dishwasher to millionaire" fairy tales like now. Look what happened to the USSR, if people are told long enough that there's nothing more great on this planet than Coca Cola, Adidas, McDonald's and other joys of capitalism you don't even need an army to ruin and conquer a country. And if you think that telling people about the many bad sides of capitalism will prevent something like this again, well, people were told about that in former times, too and I'd say it didn't work too well.

The capitalists may have no money but they have still their views and promises of a better life to spread and since humans forget soon and the grass always looks greener on the other side of the fence, the capitalists are still a threat.

[Old Man Diogenes]

Shoot him? Labor camps? Re-education? Censorship? Am I actually reading this?

*Pukes.*


I agree, these are just as bad as bourgeoisie tactics of repressions. All we'll get with that is Soviet Russia 2.

[Sam_b]

What an odd thread.

[Kyrite]

When I first saw the title of this, I thought it was referring to the book by Vladimir Lenin. :p

So did I lol.

[Pogue]

Put him in a cage and pay kids 50p to see him. This way we can make money and don't have to worry about what he gets up too. The zoo should be conveniently placed and sell all manner of refreshments ranging from ice cream to peanuts.

[Pogue]

With people like TomK?

People who are incredibly nice, but deep down--on the rare occasions when one is able to pin them to their actual views--invariably believe incredibly despicable and harmful things?


On a current practical level, it's straightforward--keep talking to them and never forget what they are. In the long run, though. . . . If one is proposing a tactical outline of revolutionary change, this must be included.

We really can't just shoot them. :/

I hear the best thing to do is feed them to pigs. You got to starve the pigs for a few days, then the sight of a chopped-up body will look like curry to a pisshead. You gotta shave the heads of your victims, and pull the teeth out for the sake of the piggies' digestion. You could do this afterwards, of course, but you don't want to go sievin' through pig shit, now do you? They will go through bone like butter. You need at least sixteen pigs to finish the job in one sitting, so be wary of any man who keeps a pig farm. They will go through a body that weighs 200 pounds in about eight minutes. That means that a single pig can consume two pounds of uncooked flesh every minute. Hence the expression, "as greedy as a pig".

[Kwisatz Haderach]

With the help of the same lame promises of "richdom, cars and caviar for everybody who works hard enough" and "from dishwasher to millionaire" fairy tales like now. Look what happened to the USSR, if people are told long enough that there's nothing more great on this planet than Coca Cola, Adidas, McDonald's and other joys of capitalism you don't even need an army to ruin and conquer a country. And if you think that telling people about the many bad sides of capitalism will prevent something like this again, well, people were told about that in former times, too and I'd say it didn't work too well.

The capitalists may have no money but they have still their views and promises of a better life to spread and since humans forget soon and the grass always looks greener on the other side of the fence, the capitalists are still a threat.
That is true, but in that case the only threat comes from their propaganda, not the existence of the people themselves. So, like I said, just take away all their means to spread propaganda except word of mouth (censoring speech causes far more problems than it solves).

At the same time, if capitalist propaganda is more attractive than socialist propaganda, then we are also to blame. It's our duty to make sure that our propaganda is at least as attractive as that of the capitalists, if not better. The propaganda of the USSR from the 60s onwards was horribly bad and did not persuade anyone. That was a major failing on their part.

[Die Neue Zeit]

The "Brezhnevites" had the most correct approach to censorship. You could criticize the government in private conversations or yell in the streets (you might get jailed for a short time after being convicted of hooliganism, though).

[yuon]

What an odd thread.

I agree.

Seriously, capitalists*, if they cause no trouble, will become workers, just like everyone else.

If they cause trouble, they'll be dealt with the same as any other trouble-maker.

But shooting them? For what crime? Forced labour? Aren't we against slavery?

After the revolution, there is no reason for true socialists to punish capitalists, we should be against punishment.



* and here I mean those who own the "means of production", rather than ideologues.

[Cooler Reds Will Prevail]

I've noticed a lot of people here displaying very deep paternalism toward the masses. Power belongs with the people; if we can't trust the majority to maintain a socialist state and prevent reversion to capitalism without shooting or "reeducating" anybody that was part of the old state, we are in deep shit. Yeah, we'll have to imprison some people that actively attempt to restore capitalism or that take foreign funding to subvert the state, but I don't see any place in an established socialist state for executions and forced indoctrination of people. We should attempt to convince reactionaries by example, by demonstrating the superiority of socialism. If they still don't come to then fuck it, let them speak, let them write, let them propagate their stupid ideas to an audience that, if we're doing our jobs right as revolutionaries amongst the people, won't take the time of day to listen.

[Revy]

I've noticed a lot of people here displaying very deep paternalism toward the masses. Power belongs with the people; if we can't trust the majority to maintain a socialist state and prevent reversion to capitalism without shooting or "reeducating" anybody that was part of the old state, we are in deep shit. Yeah, we'll have to imprison some people that actively attempt to restore capitalism or that take foreign funding to subvert the state, but I don't see any place in an established socialist state for executions and forced indoctrination of people. We should attempt to convince reactionaries by example, by demonstrating the superiority of socialism. If they still don't come to then fuck it, let them speak, let them write, let them propagate their stupid ideas to an audience that, if we're doing our jobs right as revolutionaries amongst the people, won't take the time of day to listen.

100% agreed, excellent post comrade.

[zerozerozerominusone]

What would you suggest we do? Just let them run happily through our new Socialist society? We build societies not for kicks but to last and survive. To allow our former enemy to skip around ladde dadde da would open a possibility of counter-revolution.

Who are "we"?

[Bilan]

Well once we seize power we should just supress capitalist thought with propaganda, and violence when necessary (coup attempts etc). Eventually the capitalist thought will die out because people will come to like socialism so much, provided it's implemented correctly. We will just have to wait 100 years or so for all the capitalists to die, suppressing their ideology in the meantime.

You're awful, archaic and ridiculous.
Suppressing thought, of any kind, is the most abhorrent and reactionary idea espoused. Socialists who refuse criticism are cowards, and evidently, desire to erect nothing more than a barracks.
To kill off your enemies because they criticize or disagree with you is absurd, and discredits the entirety of the movement.

This is not to say that force is not going to be used (Evidently, the revolution is a violent act, and the most authoritarian, as Engels once said), but against thought? No. I see absolutely no purpose for that. Socialism, it's goal and methods stand up on their own, and must be subjected to the most ruthless criticism - internally and externally to the movement - for it's validity to be reinforced. And obviously, the criticism will be reciprocal. But you're just being stupidly arrogant, and painfully stubborn about it.

[mikelepore]

Capitalists are only dangerous while they still have their property, and maybe for a few years after that (while they can still pull strings based on the promise that they will soon get their property back and reward their followers then).

I largely agree.

I would go even further and change the time frame when talking about a modern technological society. I would have worded that:

Capitalists are only dangerous while they still have their property, and maybe for one to two weeks after that (while they can still pull strings based on the promise that they will soon get their property back and reward their followers).

***

Most capitalists themselves are absentee owners who have never seen the industries that they own, and their connection to those industries is limited to receiving dividend checks in the mail. Only a legality maintains their status, and they would cease to be capitalists the instant that no more mailings are sent to them.

But they have a number of working-class lackeys who are likely to commit acts of terror. I don't look upon it as a "historical epoch" that is needed to sweep up those people, but merely a few days of law enforcement efforts to apprehend law-breakers.

Then what should be done with them?

I recommend that their fate be linked to their individual actions. Those who were observed committing violence, vandalism, arson, etc. should be processed according to the standard laws pertaining to those acts in general. Society shouldn't have a category of crime called "counter-revolutionary" -- just indict them for their actions. Tell them it doesn't matter what they were thinking about when they did it.

Their friends will get the message very quickly. The stability of the new society won't be in any real danger.

[Nwoye]

No, seriously, I would suggest some labour camps (everybody note: labour camps, not death camps) in which the tables are turned and these people now work for and contribute to the society and are re-educated as far as possibel. Those who get successfully re-educated will be released since they should now have realised how wrong they acted and shouldn't go on with their capitalist manners and those who refuse to learn and keep their old ways are held back in the labour camps, so that they are forced to help and work for those people they exploited once, if they don't do it voluntarily. This way they don't harm anybody anymore, don't spread their capitalist views and contribute to society.
oh yeah. we could monitor what people were thinking and if they went against what was good for the workers (represented by the Party of course) we could put them into special camps. there we could re-educate them through negative association and punishments for answering questions incorrectly. and we could call it "Room 101". it would be soooo awesome.

[Rjevan]

oh yeah. we could monitor what people were thinking and if they went against what was good for the workers (represented by the Party of course) we could put them into special camps. there we could re-educate them through negative association and punishments for answering questions incorrectly. and we could call it "Room 101". it would be soooo awesome.
Oh yes, it would! :p

1.) "represented by the Party of course"... hm, do I hear some "He's a Stalinist, they think like that!" in this? Where did I say this? I think the workers can very well decided for themselves who went against them and nobody speaks of crimethink (to come back to the Orwell references), like "Hm, I don't like his nose and eyebrows, they suggest that he might be a cappie. To the Gulags!", come on, don't tell me you know no capitalists who are obviously and undoubtly exploiting and harming their workers, it's really no wild guess game to find the worst ones.

2.) "re-educate them through negative association and punishments for answering questions incorrectly" - this is no matter of inhumane brainwashing, tell them our points of view detailed, teach them about communist theory, so that they for once have to listen and can't go like "Oh yeah, this commie shit again! I know, I know, everybody is equal and people are happier without posessions and we believe in Santa, too." If they listen and maybe "see the light" (I know, I'm naive...), great! If not, well, sad but there won't be no punishment, this just shows that they still hold to their capitalist views and therefore they are held back at the labour camp, where they don't have to do terrible, dangerous and inhumane work or are used as human laboratory animal but simply do something to contribute to the society and if it is through baking chocolate cake which is given to the people for free. ;)

So, after clearing how I mean things, what would your suggestion be?

[JimmyJazz]

My suggestion? He knowingly exploited the proletariat (he owns a factory).

lol - no, he doesn't

Also: I wish I could censor some people in this thread. (Dust Bunnies, NecroCommie, etc.)

[Nwoye]

So, after clearing how I mean things, what would your suggestion be?
leave people alone. and my original post was a reference to 1984 and the Ministry of Love.